Churches are producing atheists by not answering the questions of young people and explaining why they believe in the Bible, said a Christian apologist who works with young adults.
Anthony Horvath, who was formerly an atheist himself after years of Christian education, pointed out that renowned atheists such as Richard Dawkins were raised in the Church but have become some of the fiercest attackers of God.
He further noted, “Books like Richard Dawkins’ ‘The God Delusion’ and Dan Brown’s ‘The Da Vinci Code’ do not become best sellers in a society that understands what Christianity is all about.”
Horvath, who has taught religion to middle school and high school students, explained that some of the recurring questions young adults struggle with but churches often fail to address include the formation and development of the Bible, the presence of evil and suffering in the world, and the question of inspiration and inerrancy.
“In large part, it happens when the church leadership is completely unaware that their members – and not necessarily just the young members – have questions at all,” explained Horvath to The Christian Post. “And [they] continue merrily along thinking that to retain the youth they just need to be entertained.”
Young people question whether they should trust the Bible since it “is so old,” and are not satisfied with the simple answer that they should trust it because God wrote it. Horvath explains that though they understand that to be the Christian position, they want to know how they can be sure of that.
Furthermore, the younger generation continues to wrestle with the age-old question of why, if God is good, then there is evil and suffering in the world.
“The evidence – which they can see with their own eyes on TV and in the newspaper – is that God is not good,” said Horvath. “It is only a matter of time before a young person begins to encounter pain and suffering in their own lives and has to grapple with the issue personally.”
He added that these youth will be less likely to trust what the Church says as they continue to be fed easy answers which do not really explain why.
As a solution, Horvath recommends apologetics – the defense of the Christian faith. He points to 1 Peter 3:15 which teaches believers to be ready to give the reasons for what they believe.
“I am talking about apologetics at a much broader scale then normally understood,” said Horvath. “It should not be left to professors or specialists, such as C.S. Lewis. It needs to be incorporated into everything we do as the Church from cradle to grave.”
He called for believers to not only be able to say that Jesus rose from the dead as church dogma and doctrine, but to be able to explain why they believe this.
Horvath maintains an online discussion forum on Christianity and welcomes non-Christians to openly vent their opposition to the faith for discourse.
RSS
It is most unfortunate that the church which should be a place where the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ should be thoroughly expounded is the very place where you are shut down and told that you can not grasp the things of the spirit by reasoning except by faith alone. Worst still you are declared an heretic. So they step out of the church and step straight into the devil who provides them with abundant “seemingly” evidence.
How many Christians really take the time to study the bible. They always listen to the interpretation of the pastor or clergy without verifying from the bible, then whenever they come across contrary views, seeds of doubts are sown and reaped in denial of the faith.
Pastor Tunde Bakere (Nigeria) always admonishes Christians that: It is the truth that you know, that you live, that sustains you in the days of adversity. If you do not know what the word of God says concerning a situation and that situation assails you, what word would you speak into that situation?
The ones that do study the word of God, never really applied it in their situation but always tried to do things in their own strength and therefore Christ never showed forth. Hence, there never was a testimony. TURNING is harvested. This is why people like Friedrich Nietzsche, Richard Dawkins and Bart Ehrman etc turned against God and renounced their faith. God was never allowed his role in their lives. They “seemly” murdered Him and took his place.
The atheist is who he is because God has sent him a strong delusion. Despite all creatures testifying of God he denies it to live in his own lust.
Are you a Christian? Study, reason, live and have faith in the Word of God.
The bible might have been messed up. Elohim remains who He is. Remember He did not terminate Adam or erase the devil. Though His words might have been corrupted by Man. He is still the WORD!
Don’t be deceived, the Lord is as real as the devil. Go to Africa and see the power of evil LIVE as the name of Satan is invoke.
Has anyone read the story of Alexander the Great? this is just the second go around from that story,...that army started out as a mighty force across the I forget what hemisphere in that side of the world,...and then that Army started to relax after a number of victories,accumulating extra baggage (treasures?) along the way,..and turned into the worst , laziest bunch one could run into, Interesting......
It always amazes me when we try and make a positive step there is always people who aren't willing to accept us (http://defendreason.blogspot.com/2007/08/are-they-waking-up.html). I think that better explanation of our beliefs is the best option to get more people to believe the goodness of the Bible.
It's been my experience over these many years that the so-called main-line churches indeed fail to give faith-filled meat to not only the young but to the whole church. I found that the charismatic churches however teach from the bottom up! After I began to attend a spirit-filled church, I learned all sorts of wonderful information about the bible, it's origin, the power in Gods word and the deep love of Jesus. And the children were taught and knew more than I did!!
“In large part, it happens when the church leadership is completely unaware that their members – and not necessarily just the young members – have questions at all,” explained Horvath to The Christian Post. “And [they] continue merrily along thinking that to retain the youth they just need to be entertained.”
Most youth groups are pizza, a guitar and a place to hangout!
The Church's failure to adequately address people's intellectual questions is indeed one of the reasons for the defection of people such as Richard Dawkins. But it isn't the only reason. A second reason is that a lot of professing Christians have done a lousy job of demonstrating the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their own lives.
Of the two reasons mentioned in the preceding paragraph, I'm inclined to think that the second reason gets to the heart of the matter more often than not. We can have the greatest arguments in the world, but if we fail to treat one another with the love of Christ on a consistent basis, it won't go very far in terms of persuading people to commit their lives to Christ.
In all fairness, though, it should be acknowledged that there's nothing we can do to guarantee that people "raised in the church" will adopt the beliefs of their parents. Ultimately, each person must make the individual choice to follow or reject Christ. We should do everything possible to insure that Christianity is portrayed in the best possible light, so that we do not become stumbling blocks who prevent people from fully understanding the message of Christ, but we also need to understand that there will always be some people who will reject the gospel in spite of our best and most conscientious efforts.
All we can do is to do our best, and then leave the rest up to God.
Church is busy chasing money, popularity, the good American life. No time for the Word of God and for teaching the children the Word, let alone seeking God with all your heart etc. Logical outcome.
The Albatross forever hung around the neck
http://poleblog.polemos.net/2007/08/albatross-forever-hung-around-neck.html
Ray\'sMom,
your essentially using the Cosmological argument. Which is...essentially if everything has a cause, eventually go back far enough in time and you will have to have a un-caused cause in order for the universe as we know it to exist. This uncaused being is God(who exists transcendentally outside of time and space). It is a pretty good argument .
::begin quote::
Now, you clever scientist, create life for me using nothing.
::end quote::
Your essentially stating the scientific Law of Biogenesis (All life comes from life). This is also a good argument because as of yet the Theory of Abiogenesis (life coming from non-life) has yet to be demonstrated.
Well done.
I have been a Christian for over 40 years now. I am also a lover of science. What atheists fail to realize is their science hasn't caught up with the Bible yet. I might have become an atheist but it took way too much faith. Any scientist worth his salt will tell you that matter can neither be created or completely distroyed. Only it's form can be changed. If that is true, and I know it is, where did the matter needed to creat the universe come from? The Bible says that there was nothing but a void and God spokie everything into existence. Now, you clever scientist, create life for me using nothing. Even if you use every chemical known to man, you can not create life. Until I met Jesus, the author of life, I was lost. Praise God that even though I didn't believe in him, He always believed in me.
Citizen-another interesting and compelling-documentary,by james cameron called the exodus decoded,a lot of newly unearthed evidence, its on dvd and i beleve it can be downloaded
Citizen-again to use your line of reasoning-New York City is a real place, does that mean spiderman exists-do you discount the writings of historian joesephus,who was a Jew not a christian, well the bible speaks,about so many citys and peoples that existed,yet were said by the scientific comunity to have not existed because they didnt beleve the truth of what is writen in the bible untill the past-100 years,untill they were unearthed,so they were shown that the bible was correct after all,so a few year pass and once again the scientific community make the same claims about other items stated in the bible,such as the accuracy of the manuscripts of the foundation of the bible, then the dead sea scrolls are found so the scientific community moves on to another topic to prove the bible isnt true,when will the atacks stop.
Citizen,there are hyrogliph,showing the massive migration of the hebrews into egipt,there are also the plages recorded,there is the exodus of as well as the persuit ect, one dvd that i know of is called the exodus revealed, theres another one called mysterious origins forbididen archeology another called exodus decoded,plus robert balards work on the exodus,
Citizen-sounds like you have alot of faith in science,i think science can be very usefull however it isnt the end all be all,That belongs to God,
Laforte: New York City is a real place, does that mean spiderman exists? As for actual events well, you should read The Bible Unearthed as well to see how wrong the Bible gets it. For example, there is no archaeological evidence that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt in the first place, much less that the exodus took place. Moreover, Judah in the time of King David and Solomon was a grubby little village, not a magnificent city with a palace as portrayed. The Bible is very far from historically accurate on multiple points.
archaeologists-have in fact unearthed the places mentioned in the bible,and have found the record of the bible true,includind names dates,kings and kingdoms,some that are only found in the biblical records,
Dutch: Oh, and for the record, science's history of success means that faith is unnecessary to accept that it works. The evidence is its track record of success.
Dutch: Of course science is learning more and more. That's a feature, not a defect. We have so much still to learn about the universe, and we will do it through science, not faith. Hypotheses become theories when they are backed by strong evidence, subject to new evidence being discovered. That's a lot more concrete than just declaring what is true without any evidence at all, then defending that faith with appeals to authority. There is no foundation for that at all. So science is more concrete than faith.
Dutch-where are the error you speak of,chapter and verse,
where does the greater fault lie,in the church or the ones who dont true-ly understand,if a church teaches nonsense,you will learn nonsense there for a student will recognise nonsense for what its worth and walk away,many teach there denomination but rarely teach verse by verse from the greek and hebrew,from where the king james comes from,the early-est manuscripts,the others Bible versions water down the meanings and distort what the meanings are,how can students learn if the teachers dont know themselfs
Very well and you make a good point. However science is still full of errors and is constantly changing and I am sure will be for the remainder of the earth existance. The problem with science is everything is a hypothesis or theory. No concrete. They can't physically prove that there is gravity but it is there. Or that is what we call it anyway. It is still called a theory though. That is just out best effort at describing why we stick to the ground. Also we really are only able to scratch the surface as far as science goes. to make an informed decision to go with science on this one (as I think would be the smart move) I need to wait until all the facts are in. I can put my faith in God like you put your in science. Very well thought out though.
Dutch: I like it just fine here, thanks! Those modern authors offer evidence, and reasoning based off of that evidence rather than appeals to authority, as justification for what they are saying. The dirty little secret is that theologians don't do a very good job. I've read C.S. Lewis, Marcus Borg, Reinhold Niebuhr, and Lee Strobel (but not Bruce Metzger). I found them convincing when I was a believer, but upon further review, and setting the arguments against belief in gods against their statements, the arguments against belief won. You are making a classic appeal to authority, and that isn't a valid argument. IFaith is either a valid way of knowing, or it isn't regardless of what great minds have had it in the past, and beliefs in gods or jesus aren't anymore or less true because Isaac Newton was devout. The fact is that it is very easy for someone to apply the scientific method in their work, then refuse to do it to their own beliefs. Freethinker is fine, if you like, but I prefer Humanist. I've already made my decision, and I've chosen science and reason over faith in the fantastic and baseless.
Dude you already posted that once. Also the KJV is full of errors and hard to understand. Let the signs go. "many will come to me saying Lord Lord have We not done.this & this & this ..in your name,and he-Jesus will say depart for me for I never knew you" don't be so quick to point a finger. You could be pointing back at yourself.
back to basics if you beleve Jesus is who he says he is,and do as instructed,(church people) you will have your fill of signs and wonders in your life,(God fulfilled His word in Jesus),HIS word will never come back void,--If you need signs and wonders to--- jusify your belives--- then the ---beleves--- cannot be of faith---then you walk by sight.---God will confirm his word as he see fit,again--- i will say this the( judgement) begins in (the house of God),why are so many leaving simple the gospel is not being taught,what exactly is being taught? why was this statement made- the( judgement) begins in (the house of God)- and to whom,Do you worship because theres is gifts,Or do you worship the gifts,Or do you worship the gift giver,read this again---many will come to me saying Lord Lord have We not done.this & this & this ..in your name,and he-Jesus will say depart for me for I never knew you,just because there are signs and wonders done in the name of Jesus doesnt automaticly mean it is of God,If your Faith in Jesus depends in Part or whole on there being the necssesity of the evedence of signs and wonders then you have forgoten the bigger picture, of why they exsist, would you follow christ even if there were no signs and wonders,As a christian I dont need a song and dance to woo me into beleving-, thomas doubted the reality of christ having risen,(Even thou he had been told).What he asked for was a sign,Well Jesus humored him, and chastized him for the disbelef, The people who stood around mocking Christ saying If you be the Christ, then come down off that cross and well beleve,he can save others but he cannot save himself, when one submits themselfs to the teachings of the bible,and not just any old bible or teacher,i recomend the kjv for its purity,then as we walk as we are instructed (God cares for us daily,and our needs are met in christ Jesus),If signs and wonders you seek then there are masters of deception awaiting to misdirect your attention away from Jesus,and one starts idolizing the so called signs and wonders,
"For centuries now men have been debating the existence of God. Just think about that; men who were created by God debating about whether or not that God exists, little men attempting to bring the almighty Creator before the bar of their finite judgment! If it were not such a crime it might be something to laugh at......"
http://polemos.net/Do%20Atheists%20Exist.html
www.polemos.net
Now laforte2007 your are just as bad as your counter part in this thread. Yes I agree with the article that this originated with. The church should and needs to explain these things to the unsaved. Let me explain. I work on computers, if I walk up to some one who has a problem and start explaining something to them in technical terms then they will more than likely have no idea what I am talking about, get flustered become intimidated by the computer and never use it to it's full capability out of fear they might mess it up. I am sorry but you have made your statement very cut and dry from the begining and unfortuantely that is not the way things work. People don't know and don't understand things bibically. Every apostle in the bible devoted their time to sharing and spreading the word...you know to who? The unsaved. They had to b\c it is a hard thing to graps and yes people deserve and explination. It is not "Well I can believe it and that's it" You have to understand it. Karl Jung once quoted "The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it.". Understand? Believe it or not this post is mostly directed at you and not citizen. Sarcasim and insults only push people away and it is unbecoming of a christian. I don't care if your spitting bible verses like 50 cent. When you start getting on top of people they get irritated and look at you like you are stupid out of frustration. Also this is why the modern day shurch by and large has a reputaion as being a narrow minded biggot. Even the divison in the church has gotten out of hand. If I told you I was Presbyteran, Lutheran, Methodist, or God forbid I said Catholic then I am sure there would be a urinating contest or why your belief is more scriptually founded than mine or why I am right and you are wrong etc. We need to be selfless and only think of others. May no soul go to hell that doesn't have to. That should be our focus. We need to love our brothers and sisters inside and outside of the church and whatever it takes to get them saved we need to do it. Jesus died for it, we just need to reach people. And if it means dying for it then so be it.
This post has gotten way off base. This post is in no way meant in harsh tone or is it to be take that way. Citizen looks like you really need to be on an atheist thread somewhere. I understand what you are saying but you trying to convert on here is just throwing gas on a fire. I however do not agree with your view point but, everyone is entitled to their opnion. Just let me add this. People that go along reading anything and everything that they can get there hands on to make sense of something they can't quite graps reflects a big need in self evaluation. Just as the spoon fed sheep in the church (no offense but they are around) no one will think for themselves anymore and are quick to jump ship with anyone who pleads a good case for the moment or fits into their comfort zone. I just have a hard time why some modern author has so much influence on you when some of the most brilliant minds to ever walk the earth had no problem with let a lone a belief in a monotheistic God but Chrisitanity as well. Maybe you should give some of the leading Theologians a shot at their explination. They have devoted their life to the study and are extremely educated people ( I recommend Bruce Metzger) Also trying anything by Lee Stroble (is The case for Christ, The case for a creator or The Case for Faith) then make your decision. 3 Years is not a long time I'm sorry. Belief is not just a mental state it is an informed desicion for the free thinkers. Which I would classify you as.
every thing your saying isnt new,others have made the same claims,many have come and gone,yet christs word still exsists inspite of the best efforts to ride the world of it,it continues,there were many religions that beleve as you do,and what has become of them.beleve what you wish,however in the end the proof will be shown.
Citizen-none of there thing do a christian put there faith in as far as eternal salvation goes"bigfoot, aliens, atlantis, phrenology, Zeus, Odin, the Bhagavad Gita, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, fairies at the bottom of the garden, dowsing, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, every other comic book superhero,Secondly there is only one God not as you state"gods "Small g-denotes,false,or self appointed.if 40 authors over 5000 years,having not known each other are writeing in agreement and without descrepency,ID have to say,its a bit more than hapenstance.including all prophecys they forfold have come to pass,not by mans doing could this happen,But by God.
First, ask yourself why you don't believe modern gurus who make the same claims as are made about Jesus: http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/makeitbetter.asp . If you say, "Jesus was the messiah, and these people aren't," how do you know? Rev. Moon's literature proclaims him the messiah too.
Second, research the archaeological record concerning the Old Testament, and discover how much of it was made up to further the King of Judah's political aims: http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-7325393-0444142?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186105726&sr=8-1
Once you've done that, if you've kept an open mind, you'll realize that Bible is a mythological text that need not have anything to tell us concerning the existence of gods. Then realize that the best way to determine what to believe is to look for evidence, rather than take things on faith. In the absence of evidence, we should not believe.
Just as icing on the cake, you can read Why I am not a Christian by Bertrand Russell.
That should just about do it.
laforte- why shouldn't Christians believe in those things, if you are going to give up evidence as a standard for measuring the truth of ideas? Moreover, I don't know how you know that there is only one god. Why not five, or five hundred? Because the bible said so? What if I released an edition of the bible that claimed there were five thousand gods? Would you believe that too? Your claim that that there are no discrepancies in the Bible is just plain wrong. To list them all here would take too long, so I'll direct you to a resource that has already done so: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
Citizen-oh wise one please enlighten us poor misguided fools who beleve in Jesus,praytell indulge me for your knowledge is so vast,tell us so that we too may be as wise as you,there are goverment agence that could use someone who has the ability to master such a wealth of knowledge in such a short time,how did you do it and what was the proof that you have found that we have not been able to find where is this secret.please tell us,
Citizen-none of there thing do a christian put there faith in as far as eternal salvation goes"bigfoot, aliens, atlantis, phrenology, Zeus, Odin, the Bhagavad Gita, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, fairies at the bottom of the garden, dowsing, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, every other comic book superhero,Secondly there is only one God not as you state"gods "Small g-denotes,false,or self appointed.if 40 authors over 5000 years,having not known each other are writeing in agreement and without descrepency,ID have to say,its a bit more than hapenstance.including all prophecys they forfold have come to pass,not by mans doing could this happen,But by God.
laforte- three years was indeed enough time to realize that the claims of Christianity are baseless.
effeminatefonzie-seek knowlede and you will find it, ask for knowledge and you will hear it,knock and it will be opened for you all of this implys a continual task,on the part of the seeker,one cannot open a statement will I assume--being the finality of the given topic,and you further say I dont know--well then why add your two cents if you are so unsure,each should be taught according to there ability to learn.and each will learn according to the internal desire,in any subject the listener must have some faith in the given subject or else they wouldnt listen,to draw a conclusion befor the subject is finished teaching, would be foolish unless the teacher is teaching nonsence,
Citizen-3 years doesnt an expert make,in this time you have mastered the full context of christianity,and the implacations there of and looked studied the 5000 years plus of history and the records pertaining to the faith and you in three years have concluded that you are now a well informed individual as to decide your fate,Hmmmmmm, not so shur
art: you claim its the word of god, but you've got no evidence for that, nor for the existence of gods in the first place. If you are going to believe in gods and the bible without evidence, will you also believe in bigfoot, aliens, atlantis, phrenology, Zeus, Odin, the Bhagavad Gita, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, fairies at the bottom of the garden, dowsing, Spider-man, Superman, Batman, every other comic book superhero, my claim to have authored a text that bears the divine stamp of approval (it proclaims me a god, don'tcha know? ;)), a six thousand year old earth, Joseph Smith as a prophet of god, and so on? There is no more evidence for any of those things than for god, jesus, or the bible as a divine produce.
citizen, this is not an insult, It is the word of God. people will condemn those who stand on Gods word, or who beleive the Bible is the Gods word to mankind, they attack christians because they can't get to God, Folks you all must beleive what you like, in the end God will set it all right.
Christians who are against Gods power to bless his children by healing their bodies, or by freeing them from some sort of bondage. God help the church.. art
I assume laforte that you are directing comments generally and not responding to my comment. I need no justification because my faith is not in question. I don't know that your comments would answer the needs of a young person questioning the faith they were raised in. Indeed, they might find your witness disingenuous if only because it seems to respond to theoretical questions merely by attempting to silence them. For questioning teens, this may seem less like an example of faithful witness and more like a rhetorical tactic. In any event, I'm quite sure that while your points might prove successful in quieting the urge of Christians who look for proof of God by expecting the miraculous, they would do little for an atheist who is unchurched and unschooled in not only the scripture you cite, but the fundamental truths you feel that reveal.
laforte: I did believe once. I was a Christian for three years. Doesn't change the fact that faith is worthless as a "way of knowing." It is not a virtue to believe things without evidence, because you are afraid of what would happen if you didn't believe, or because it makes you feel good to believe.
if you beleve Jesus is who he says he is,and do as instructed,you will have your fill of signs and wonders in your life,God fulfilled His word in Jesus,HIS word will never come back void,if you need signs and wonders to jusify your belives then the beleves cannot be of faith,then you walk by sight.God will confirm his word as he see fit,again i will saythe judgement begins in the house of God, why was this stement made and to whom,Do you worship because theres is gifts,Or do you worship the gifts,Or do you worship the gift giver,read this again---many will come to me saying Lord Lord have We not done.this & this & this ..in your name,and he-Jesus will say depart for me for I never knew you,just because there are signs and wonders done in the name of Jesus doesnt automaticly mean it is of God,If your Faith in Jesus depends in Part or whole on there being the necssesity of the evedence of signs and wonders then you have forgoten the bigger picture, of why they exsist, would you follow christ even if there were no signs and wonders,As a christian I dont need a song and dance to woo me into beleving-, thomas doubted the reality of christ having risen,(Even thou he had been told).What he asked for was a sign,Well Jesus humored him, and chastized him for the disbelef, The people who stood around mocking Christ saying If you be the Christ, then come down off that cross and well beleve,he can save others but he cannot save himself, when one submits themselfs to the teachings of the bible,and not just any old bible or teacher,i recomend the kjv for its purity,then as we walk as we are instructed (God cares for us daily,and our needs are met in christ Jesus),If signs and wonders you seek then there are masters of deception awaiting to misdirect your attention away from Jesus,and one starts idolizing the so called signs and wonders,
It appears to me when reading these comments that this article may be on to something. In my reading of the article, the claim was simply that the inability to create convincing theodicies (apologies that situate a just God along with the existing suffering), explain Biblical inerrancy to a cynical age as well as account for belief in extraordinary events like the Resurrection, may account for why some of the churched become atheists and the unchurched remain so. While wielding Biblical citations as weapons may be personally gratifying, it doesn't appear to respond to the claim raised in the text and hoping for a gathering unto God may be predicted in Scripture, but relying on that prediction exclusively would seem to me to create precisely the environment of one-sided justification that the article is convinved currently exists.
Too many Christ's and not enough disciples.
This argument is ridiculous.
Insults can't obscure the truth, Art.
If it is true that atheist are increasing in numbers,really is not very surprising when you consider that the Bible says that deception would be in the land in the last day, Psalm 14:1 declares, " The fool has said in his heart there is no God." I pray that God in His great Grace will some how draw these people to himself. so that they may know the truth. Art
Have you considered the possibility that one of the reasons that the "atheist/agnostic/non-religious" category is increasing in numbers is that the truth claims of Christianity really are baseless and indefensible? Another reason is that the increased media presence of atheists and Humanists is dispelling the taboo against criticizing religion, which gives it unearned respect. The less social pressure people feel to be religious, the fewer religious people there will be.
The Gifts of the Spirit, Healing,Miracles and Deliverance and so on, Point people " too Christ " not away from Christ. The word faith camp has done a lot of damage to the Body of Christ, but we have to understand that these groups did not originate the Gifts and Healing and so on.
My point is that if the Church would pattern itself after the book of acts Church,as it should, people would see the " Wonderful Works of God."
to " preach " the word means to declare the truth. To " teach " the word means to " explain " the truth. we need to do these things, But also God gas given us the Holy Spirit to enable the church to " show " the world that our God is not dead, but alive and well. art
Amen Artm. Today Adrian Rogers ministry has released a timely message to fathers - "How not to raise a fool." Arrogant fathers and delinquent fathers contribute to atheism the most and a powerless, unholy "saints" merely reinforce their misconceptions about God. I could have an intellectual discussion but salvation does not take place. It is unfortunate that believers fail to look at their own hearts and consider the source of where we get their information.
It is real easy to see how a person would criticize a Holy Spirit-filled pastor who is being blessed financially, teaches holy living and being led by the Holy Spirit when those very critics have attached themselves to Para-church "Christian ministries" who make their living by dividing the body of Christ and creating strongholds of rebellion in the hearts of their listeners. Such Para-church "ministries" could be better called parasitic ministries. They have not been a success until they have splintered enough church members off from the Bible-believing and teaching churches that they don't agree with in order to become their own financial partners.
Do you ever see those carnally minded Para-church ministries giving to the poor, helping the needy, and clothing the naked? When they preach the gospel, does it appear to be a mere intellectual discourse? Do preach that salvation is a discussion of a person will and by following their special prayer formula they can assure their spot in heaven? Does how they convey their salvation message appear to be born from the will of man, when John 1:13 clearly says this is NOT the way to receive the Lord? Do they minimize or scoff at the work of the Holy Spirit and teach others to blaspheme the work of the holy Spirit within peoples lives. Where is the passion for God in their lives? Who are they really worshipping when they attack the members of the body of Christ who are being lead by the Holy Spirit? The anointing is the enabling power of God to get a task or job done. Truly truly I say unto you, whosoever is anti-anointing - IS ANTI-CHRIST, because CHRIST IS the Anointed One and His Anointing and by their word and actions they reject that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. (1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7) They have failed recognize the body of Christ, whose house we are. (1 Corinthians 11:29-32, Hebrews 3:6)
Beware of the leaven of the Pharisee and Sadducee. (Matthew 16:6) The Spirit of the Pharisee believes in the resurrection theoretically but does not experience that resurrection life through Christ Jesus. Pharisees thought they had eternal life merely reading the scriptures, but Jesus said they testify of Him. (John 5:39 ) Pharisee's seek to kill Christ (the anointed one and His anointing) because the Holy Spirit convicts them or sin and challenges their defiant wills. (John 7:19, John 8:37, John 8:40) The Sadducees were so intellectual that they ultimately did not believe in the power of God nor the resurrection. Ah Oh ... The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. (Romans 1:16, 2 Timothy 1:8) Jesus is the wisdom of God and Power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:24, 1 Corinthians 2:5) I am certain that the Saducees in Jesus' day would have used some of the same atheistic arguments against the Lord Jesus Christ that some "christians" use today against the disciples of Christ. How is it that some of us find ourselves in better company with the stingy and atheists by aligning with their destructive philosophy of life and their attitudes about the body of Christ? This is a great opportunity for us to examine ourselves to see if we be of the faith.
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified." (2 Corinthians 13:5)
I really love you all and care about the spiritual condition of the body of Christ. My anti-darwinism blog ==> http://evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
laforte2007, Please read my post. The christian doen not need signs to beleive in Christ. but the world does. the statement was that the church is producing atheists. the best way to counter that is " produce the proof " that Jesus is alive and well.
The disciples had no problem with " signs ".Mark 16:20 declares, " and they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them,and confirming the Word with " signs" following. amen.
Why isin't that good enough for the church today. ? it was good enough for God and the early church.
Yes the church is producing atheist today, and because the church is not producing the proof as the early church did.
Now that seems to be a problem to you, Why I don't know,sounds like doubt and unbelief. The book of acts is the pattern for the new testament church, when the church today produces the proof of the realality of Christ as they did, we will no longer produce atheists.
That is my argument. I don't need to see some sort of sign to beleive in Christ,But the world does. and maybe if the church today had more of the power of God in it some on the inside of the church wouldn't be unbeleiving.
Stop twisting my words, and start beleiving the Bible. There signs are not the enemy of the church, false brethern are,who ever they might be.
God heals today, I am not ashamed to say I beleive that. God delivers today, He is still the God of miracles. Art
artem- you may not be as rightious as you may think,---the judgement begins in the house of God, why was this stement made and to whom,Do you worship because theres is gifts,Or do you worship the gifts,Or do you worship the gift giver,read this again---many will come to me saying Lord Lord have We not done.this & this & this ..in your name,and he-Jesus will say depart for me for I never knew you,just because there are signs and wonders done in the name of Jesus doesnt automaticly mean it is of God,If your Faith in Jesus depends in Part or whole on there being the necssesity of the evedence of signs and wonders then you have forgoten the bigger picture, of why they exsist, would you follow christ even if there were no signs and wonders,As a christian I dont need a song and dance to woo me into beleving-, thomas doubted the reality of christ having risen,(Even thou he had been told).What he asked for was a sign,Well Jesus humored him, and chastized him for the disbelef, The people who stood around mocking Christ saying If you be the Christ, then come down off that cross and well beleve,he can save others but he cannot save himself, when one submits themselfs to the teachings of the bible,and not just any old bible or teacher,i recomend the kjv for its purity,then as we walk as we are instructed (God cares for us daily,and our needs are met in christ Jesus),If signs and wonders you seek then there are masters of deception awaiting to misdirect your attention away from Jesus,and one starts idolizing the so called signs and wonders,
Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
Again, Anthony's website is www.sntjohnny.com and has a book located at www.birthpangs.com.
While the church does not need miracles,healings,deliverance to beleive in God,those things are there for their blessing. to deny these things exsist in the true church is amazing to me, Christ himself said these blessings should be in the church. those who set out to deny these blessings are just the ones who help weaken the church. and no doubt do not have these blessings in their own lives.
doubt and unbelief has weakened the church to the point that it is very hard to find any who even remotely resemble the book of acts church. and I will say this also, If the church you attend does not have the ear marks of the book of acts,then you do not attend a new testament church.
deny this all you like,but show me in the word of God where these things are not for the church. And Jesus also said, " not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter in. Art
"many will come to me saying Lord Lord have We not done.this & this & this ..in your name,and he Jesus will say depart for me for I never knew you,just because there are signs and wonders done in the name of Jesus doesnt automaticly mean it is of God,If your Faith in Jesus depends in Part or whole on there being the necssesity of the evedence of signs and wonders then you have forgoten the bigger picture,namely would you follow christ even if there were no signs and wonders,as a christian I dont need a song and dance to woo me into beleving,thomas doubted the reality of christ having risen,even thou he had been told.What he asked was a sign,well Jesus humored him and chastized him for the disbelef, the people who stood around mocking Christ saying If you be the Christ then come down off that cross and well beleve,he can save others but he cannot save himself, when one submits themselfs to the teachings of the bible,and not just any old bible or teacher,i recomend the kjv for its purity,then as we walk as we are instructed God cares for us daily,and our needs are met in christ Jesus,if signs and wonders you seek then there are masters of deception awaiting to misdirect your attention away from Jesus,and one starts idolizing the so called miricals ,
I have read both this article and the comments with some interest and I agree that we need to provide answers for what we believe - and can - there are many, many examples of good, sound, proofs, utilising established historical and scientific methods that show that what is written in the Bible is historically accurate. (a good place to start for some of these is at: www.josh.org).
Whether we choose to believe these are not depends more on what our starting point is, rather than what the proof is. The Jewish leaders of Christ's time had significant knowledge of Scripture and therefore knew all the prophecies about Jesus being the Son of God and the Messiah, yet they choose not to believe, and Jesus called them "Blind leaders of the Blind". Knowledge alone will not move someone to decide to follow Christ, although for some it is important.
Saul, who later became the apostle Paul, had all the religious knowledge available to him of the day, and was a devote Pharisee - leader of the Jewish people, yet persecuted the early Church - Until he met Christ personally on the Damascus Road. It is the same today - we cannot know Christ, until we meet Him personally - and that is not usually through "Damascus Road" experience, but through other Believers who show Christ daily in their lives.
Jesus told us how to do it when teaching his disciples: "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35).
He also expressed this again in His Prayer recorded in John 17:21,22: "that they ALL MAY BE ONE, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that THAT THEY MAY BE ONE EVEN AS YOU AND I ARE ONE"
Look at the Church today and it is no wonder that people do not believe - Christians act as badly as the rest of the world - with so much division that the world cannot see Christ. If each one of us - not just Church leaders, began to put into practice the pattern of the early Church, we too would see numbers swell. The pattern is indeed in the book of Acts 2:42-47; 4:31-35:
Continually they studied the Word, maintained fellowship, Praised God and prayed. They were of one heart and soul, and shared everything with anyone who was in need. Then it was the Lord who gave them favour and added to them DAILY those who were saved.
Showing Christ by loving one another, putting others before ourselves and being willing to put Christ first shows the reality of Christian Faith - the rest flows from that, knowledge, miracles, and people being saved. That is reality and Truth.
Brother, I am not a fan of the word faith ministry. But I am a beleiver in the Word of God. Our world is dying without christ, and most of our churches just keep on preaching a watered down message that is not even the Gospel of Christ.
The book of acts is Gods pattern for the new testament church. It was said of the disciples at that time, " they turned the world upside down."
Jesus said, " the works that I do shall you do also,and greater works shall you do"
Read the books of acts,and know that the church is today is to be like the book of acts church. And, miracles,healing,deliverance and so on did not come the the word of faith movement,it comes from the Bible,The Word of God.
And sir, I do not beleive Jesus used bad language,and for you to say that He did,comes from your own mind, not the Word of God. art
artm,
I respectfully disagree.
"Too say that healing,miracles and the power of God is ' word faith " just shows your ignorance of the word of God. and by the word you abbreviated shows that you need to work on your language a little."
Yes, the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements bread was is now called the Word-Faith Movement. There whole idealism draws from Acts with Miracles, Healing and whatnot. My point of the post was that today, the church is dying because theology and doctrinal matters are NOT TAUGHT in the churches anymore. There are Pastors out there who claim Jesus is not GOD!
There has been 0 theologians and scholars to come out of the movements I mentioned above. Zero. None.
As for my abbreviation... sometimes strong language is required. Do you think Jesus spoke only 'good things' while driving the money changers out of HIS HOUSE? Maybe it ought to be you who studies a little more.
How can the youth 'show' Christ when they have no idea who he is?
Anthony speaks what is true.
Some Christians dun know their God enough to be able to explain their faith. There is no shame in not able to explain except that you believe. God's ways are higher than our ways and He in His wisdom choose to accept those who do not see Him and YET believe. There is nothing more to be said. But we must do our utmost to testify of our God and the Word whihc He left us. That is the least of what He requires of us who call ourselves Christians.
before the dead sea scrolls were found some people said the book of isaih shouldnt be in the bible because there wasnt manuscripts to support the validty of Or at one time the bible was a fairy tail because babylon wasnt found and the same argument about sodom,or that the bible coudnt be true because there was no Israel-and it was imposible ect wellthey were all shown the error of there asumtions,what about the hystorians that have nothing to do with the bible quoting thesame names and places and storys what about those who go and dig up past evidences,time and again the christians are dismissed as fools yet theevedence is there for all to see is they chose to see it maby the teachers of the christian need to get back to the meat of the word get back into the source of the faith,especialy reading from the hebrew and greek rather than the poorly and often changable english laungage,get back to the king james bible,since it is 99.9%in alignment with the manuscripts,the other versions are moving the bar of understanding further from the source of truth makeing it harder to see facks as they are.
hampsteadpete; Psalm 14:1 declares, " the fool has said in his heart there is no God." someone once said, " there are none so blind as those who will not see." Art
Carl Sagan was looking to a race of extraterrestrials for the meaning of life. What evidence did he have to support his hypothesis that they even existed much less that they would know and share the meaning of life with humans?
The truth of Christianity is self-evident for all who will believe. Have you truly investigated the validity of the Christian faith or do you just presuppose it an invalid worldview sir?
You are "losing a generation of youth" because your message is, well, nonsense. If you think about it, there is absolutely zero evidence for hardly anything upon which your faith is based. As Carl Sagan said: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," and there just isn't any.
Greetings, readers. I just wanted to post Anthony Horvath's web page for those who wish to learn more about his ministry. It is here: www.sntjohnny.com. He also has a book, called "Fidelis" which is the first book in a series called "Birth Pangs." It is available on Amazon.com and at his website at www.birthpangs.com.
zenodaddy, First of all,based on my post,I don't know what you are talking about,you don't make sence. along with declaring the word of God, " show " them the truth of Gods word.
You can read the koran and explain it to them,or any other book for that matter. yes explain why you beleive the Bible, But what better way to prove why you beleive than to produce the proof by healing the sick,the working of miracles,and just the power of God.
Too say that healing,miracles and the power of God is ' word faith " just shows your ignorance of the word of God. and by the word you abbreviated shows that you need to work on your language a little.
The God of the Bible is not dead, he is alive,But to watch some churches the world would think that God is dead. read your bible a little, read the book of acts and see what Gods blue print of the church really is. art
Your spouting the same emotional BS that the Word-Faith movement lives on. These kids want facts. Can you give it to them? Can you intellectually tell these kids why you believe what you believe? Can you tell these kids that Jesus is God. Can you tell these kids that unless they believe that Jesus is God and that He died for their sins, then they are going to burn?
Can you tell these kids why, after 2,000 years the church has gone away from the cold-hard truth of salvation and sin, or do you want to show them your wealth that your god brings to you?
I agree that we are losing a generation of of youth. But I don't beleive that the problem is in " explaining why we beleive the Bible." I beleive the problem is not " Demonstrating " why we beleive the Bible.
Acts 3:6-7 declare, " Then Peter said,silver and gold have I none,But such as I have give I thee, In the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And He took him by the right hand, and lifted him up,and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength, and he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking and leaping and prasing God.
When the Church begings being the church,producing the proof of the risen Christ, the world will beleive. But much of the church spends its time explaining that the gifts and power of God is not for today. no wonder people find it hard to beleive today. Art