Exodus Youth, part of the evangelical ministry Exodus International that deals with the issue of homosexuality, is aiming to reverse a "disturbing" trend seen across churches and perceived widely by young Americans – that the Church is anti-homosexual.
Homosexuality is a topic that churches are still struggling to address in a culture that is increasingly accepting gay and lesbian lifestyles. It's a struggle that hasn't come across to many Americans in a positive light.
"I think for a long time, the church just hasn't known how to talk about homosexuality," said Exodus Youth Director Scott Davis. "They've been very uncomfortable with the topic.
"So when they do talk about it, they tend to talk about just the moral side of whether it's right or wrong without any real understanding of where people are coming from – so it comes across as very harsh," he commented.
The younger generation of Americans is reportedly more open and accepting of homosexuality than any other generation. A majority (75 percent) of 18- to 34-year-olds say homosexuality should be an acceptable alternative lifestyle compared to less than half (45 percent) of Americans age 55 years and older, according to a recent Gallup Poll.
In the midst of higher gay tolerance levels, most young people are criticizing the Church for staunch opposition toward gays and lesbians. A recent Barna Group survey found that 91 percent of young non-Christians describe present-day Christianity as "anti-homosexual." Moreover, 80 percent of young Christians hold the same perception.
Davis wasn't too surprised by Barna's findings.
"As I talk to youth around the country on the topic [of homosexuality], some of the most frequent questions we get from them are 'What's the big deal about homosexuality?' and 'Why does the Church make such a big topic of this?' and 'Why is this the worst sin than any other?'" he explained.
"They believe that's what the Church is teaching on this," Davis added.
"There's no doubt that the evangelical Church desperately needs to change the way it has dealt with the issue of homosexuality in the past. It is our goal to mobilize the youth of today to reverse the church's problems of the past," he said.
In the last decade, however, there has been a dramatic shift in the attitudes of church leaders toward homosexuality, Davis acknowledged. More are promoting compassion and love toward homosexual individuals while still maintaining their biblical stance and opposing homosexual behavior.
But even when Christians demonstrate a loving heart toward homosexuals, they're still uncomfortable with the issue. "So it comes across very badly," Davis said.
Exodus Youth is working with colleges, youth workers and churches to help students understand what the Bible has to say about homosexuality and how to reach out to their gay-identified peers with Christ-like compassion.
"We are seeing an outpouring of teens and young adults who are seeking biblical clarity on the subject of homosexuality," said the Exodus director.
The organization's newly created Truth & Tolerance series teaches God's full design of sexuality rather than just shaking the finger at what's wrong.
"[It] explains how God has designed our bodies and our sexuality to be used particularly between a husband and wife," Davis explained. "And when you start from that basis ... and come to homosexuality, obviously that's just one of many ways that we live apart from what God desires sexuality for." Continue >>
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define cohabitation if you will,
My observed meanings from different time periods in my life seem conflicting right now.
The Church used to take a very hard line on fornication, cohabitation, and divorce. These things are still sins but we no longer assign everyone who does them a scarlet letter like the H for homosexual sin.
Christians are only given a hard time over this issue because they seek to be consistent with ALL kinds of sin. However, if people reject the New Testament and claim there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, then they are going to see Christians as singling out a particular behavior, when in actual fact they're only treating it consistently with other damaging lifestyles.
If anyone thinks certain behaviors are not damaging, they are deliberately setting aside the biological fatcs.
The nature-nurture argument - whether these behaviors are inherited or learned - has no bearing on whether the the lifestyle is damaging.
There is, for example, plenty of evidence that propensities to alcohol abuse or various obsessive character traits are inherited. 35% of children with fetal alcohol syndrome, for example, go on to experience drug or alcohol dependency.
The sad fact about sin, from a Christian perspective, is that it is ALL inherited from Adam. But that is no excuse for making virtues out of our vices.
Most Chrstians feel sympathy for those who struggle with all damaging inclinations (let's face it, who doesn't?) and want to be able to help them, but resistance and abstinence, whether or not it feels 'natural', is what is needed.
God is a healer. God takes what is broken and fixes it. If homosexuality IS NOT a lifestyle, then how do people leave it's grip and live a life free of it? God's love is change for the sinner.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJ)
The renewed man acts upon new principles, by new rules, with new ends, and in new company. The believer is created anew; his heart is not merely set right, but a new heart is given him. He is the workmanship of God, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Though the same as a man, he is changed in his character and conduct. These words must and do mean more than an outward reformation. The man who formerly saw no beauty in the Saviour that he should desire him, now loves him above
Without belief in a change, we can say that cross is empty also.
I mean to me it seems pretty obvious without having to enter the realm of science... Gay people are unlike any other males I have ever come across... to think a man became that way is beyond my scope of comprehension. Plus it is my belief that gay men have no desire for women... something I dont find to be natural in a straight man. Definitely a man who is gay is unnatural, but thats because we are applying it to the wrong model. Its like seeing a woman and thinking its a man and trying to understand why they are so woman like. Its because shes a woman. Same thing for gays, they are gay because they are gay! they arnt straight.
I see these arguements and cant get past the fact that I see this as a categorical error. You think its a lifestyle, where as I believe its an irreversible attribute. I dont see why this is such a hard concept to understand... it makes rather perfect sense... Why people wont take the time to investigate is beyond me... Rather than saying "Oh wow this is a problem.. I'll do everything in my power to figure out what I can do for you" you just say "Your a problem, fix or yourself or burn in hell"... If I was a Christian and I turned out to be gay, I would hope my parents would seek to figure out if its a natural cause or a nuture cause before they decide to beat me to death and send me on my way.
i hope you dont mind if i use it
hahahaha...i like your analogy better.
That is a very bad justification. It's like looking an 800lb gorilla sitting on the couch and calling it a poodle. It is a pretty clear message from Paul.
TheWatch
Sorry I havent emailed you back lately. I'll try and do so tonight.
Anyway, the argument that many non-believers and some Christians is that when Paul speaks of homosexuality in Romans, he is speaking of an older person taking advantage of a younger underage boy. That, of course, is an opinion. A wrong one, at that, but still what they base their justification for their sin on. Basically, they say..."I am having sex with a guy....BUT it's not an underage boy...so it's alright." Kind of like saying.."I took a ream of paper from my employer, BUT I didn't steal $5." make sense? in the eyes of the world it does.
Is homosexuality a sin? Yes. It is defined as a sin in Romans. What happens if a person commits themself to our Lord and chooses to accept His salvation, but they continue on with their lifestyle? I mean a willing sinful lifestyle, not just a person who is homosexual. A thief or person in the throws of adultry. What happens then? Well, Hebrews 10:26-31 paints a pretty clear picture.
"26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "
The crux of the disagreement people have with Christian views on homosexuality, is they cannot understand the seperation of sinner and sin. I despise some of the new verbiage people have coined in this subject. Ant-gay, in the world-view becomes a statement of hate. While if you examine the diction it means against being gay. Which as a Christian, performing homosexual acts is a sexual immoral sin and we should be against it. I might agree with, taken in the context of sin, as being anti-gay, but I am Pro-people and Pro-salvation. That means that I believe in the saving power of our Lord Jesus and His changing power he has when people accept His Love and Grace. I believe a person, through our Lord, can leave whatever sins they were commiting before being redeemed, and through prayer, faith, the Word and support by the Body of Christ, can, as Jesus put it best: "Sin no more".
Omg you guys I cant believe you are arguing like this... It saddens me to know that Christians will bicker with eachother in such a way... In any case, I am compelled to read the scriptures in order to shed some light on this whole thing...
ifeelfine
Yes, I've know for a long time how that feels. I've been treated as such by many non-Christians...but very few Christians. I've learned to accept the persecution. God already said that my life would be filled with it. But the trials of this life are nothing compared to the glory that He has in store for me.
heavenwoman
Amen! The wages of sin....sin is something we earn! We work for it. Salvation is a gift...nothing we could ever do could make us good enough to deserve it. That's the love of God.
To: I feel fine 72,
sin is anything that displeases God and makes him sad. Everyone sins! How dare you that you are fine. You are not! ... Jesus Christ saves sinners! God is merciful, compassionate, loviing and forgiving that is true. It is also true that he created everyone and everything. It is true that God judges people. Hebrew 9:27 "It is appointed unto man, once to die and after that the judgment." There are many passions in Revelation that talk about the Judgment Seat of Christ. They are referring to Christians being judged by God for what they die for him, and what they did not do. Also, in Revelation the judgment for the lost is mentioned and is called The Great White Throne Judgment....there all the lost people are judged for rejecting Jesus Christ. ....Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." "wages"-payment, punishment for sin = Hell, "death"-spiritual death
Christians are against homosexuals having special rights, and being church leaders. Homosexuals need to know the Truth that they are sinners just like everyone else is and that without Jesus Christ in their lives that they have no hope.no real joy, no peace with God, and that they are doomed to Hell for all eternity. Coating the sin of homosexuality over with lies does not show the love of God, nor does it help them the homosexuals to see that they need Jesus Christ in their lives. It gives them a false sense of reality. It leaves them ignorant of where they really be spending eternity. Tolerating this sin is not right. Tolerating any sin for that matter is wrong and is sin as well. No matter what hte Exodus Youth do they can not change the fact they are telling the homosexuals things that are not true and that will not help them. The Exodus Youth need to find themselves a new name. Exdous is a book of the Bible and they are living unbliblical lives.
Prophet - I guess you know how it feels now.
"and unless God speaks to you in some way, which I pray that He will, I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on it."
how condescending.....how unChristian like.....
Prophet - I'm not even sure I've ever used the "J" word (judgmental). I have a problem with sin as well. Again, its with your brand of Christianity. Maybe I'm at the wrong Christian site - maybe this site is for fundamentalists; I don't know. I clearly don't practice / believe the same way as 90% of the Christians on this site. But I still love God with all my heart. You and I both have the same anger issue and its clear we both hold Christians to a different standard. That is why I am so passionate on this site. You seem pretty firm in your convictions. That's fine but don't judge my convictions because we disagree. I'm not sure I've ever questioned your conviction; just your stand on this issue. I've noticed that we tend to agree on a lot of issues on this site but not this one and unless God speaks to you in some way, which I pray that He will, I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on it.
i keep fighting those temptations and sins. and i will fight until my last breath to attain the image of Christ
And I do sin. I struggle with sin every day. sometimes it knocks me on my butt. But i dont make exuses, and I dont justify it. I dont say "oh, this is who I am...so i guess God must be okay with it. After all, He made me this way." No, i get up, ask for forgivness, and keep walking. And i hold myself to the same expectations that I preach at other people.
can you feel the love? because i stand for Truth I am cursed. and so it goes. even Jeremiah felt the same way. I'm sorry you think I'm being judgemental. in all the years Ive dealt with people I've learned something. When you say something is wrong, and someone gets upset, its usually because the person getting upset is the guiltiest.
You've said I'm wrong. Ok. You've said im judgemental. Ok. life goes on. I do have issues. I have issues with sin. I don't like it. I don't like to give it any place in my life. you can say what you want about my screen name. "out of the abundance of your heart you speak." is anger all you have in your heart?
I do preach mercy and grace. Mostly to the unsaved. But where there is no sin, there can be no mercy. And doing away with sin, makes the Cross ineffective. I am not creating sin where there is none. I'm speaking the word of God. And if someone hears and understands and repents, then grace is complete.
I speak differently to people who call themselves Christians. I hold them to a higher moral standard than non-Christians. I expect more out of them. So does God. First Peter 4:17-18 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" I'm sorry that my convictions bother you to the point of causing you to berate a fellow Christian.
Prophet - you're wrong. And I'm tired of you creating God in your image. We will be judged but I don't believe it will be quite the way you think. Sin is wrong, God knows its wrong, we know its wrong but we will continue to sin until we die. God knows that. That's why he sent his Son. You seem more interested in the judgment of God than his mercy and grace. Me, I know I'm a sinner, I will always be sinner and by God's grace and Son I will go to heaven when I die. You on the otherhand seem to look down on everyone else and through your comments its clear you feel you have the spiritual upperhand (anyone who gives them a screen name of Prophet clearly has issues). Good luck to you and God bless.
I think my first impression of you was correct.
Wow..you are so confusing. Did the woman sin or not? Jesus said "go and sin no more." you act like he was playing it off. He didn't have to say "go and adulterate no more" because she knew why she had been brought before him, and knew what he was talking about. And by saying "go and sin no more" he judges her already as one who has sinned. Otherwise, he would have said "ok, you can go." I'm assuming that you at least understand that he was telling her to quit that particular sin. Or, at least, sin in general..
Knowing that, understand that is what He is saying to the homosexuals today. "Go and sin no more." And they know what he's talking about.
I get the feeling that you don't believe that God will judge us someday. Because, in doing so, would violate your convictions. He's not a judgmental God. He would never stoop to even insinuating that people were sinning. That's the feeling i get.
And that's the "feel good", "Im okay, you're okay", "lets create God in our image" garbage that is going around. Sorry, i dont answer to you. I answer to God. And I refuse to pull God down to a level that I can control Him. God is a very dangerous God. His judgement is true and sometimes harsh. Even for his own children. But He is still a good God.
Prophet - I'm always happy for prayers (and I will pray for you too) but I would suggest you reread what I wrote so as to not misquote and take my statements out of context, which you've done before. That's not what I said at all.
Christianity has been used to do and condone many terrible things and I feel this is one of them.
But none of that changes the biblical view. Look, God tells us how well He knows just exactly how each one of us is made (Ps 139), so He knows our battles. There ARE more opportunities for the homosexual to get loving help in the battle, which I guess is one good thing about all this.
And yes, the author's name is Joe Dallas, web site joedallas.com. I didn't realize he had such an all-encompassing ministry (besides his books) until I searched to make sure I had his name right. He was in this lifestyle himself as a practicing Christian, he's in a much better position to help with some of these answers than I am. I just know that this is such a tough issue to deal with for those who are really wanting God's answers, I know it was a really tough one for us with our friend, and that wasn't as hard even as it would be when it's family members involved I am sure.
I know that you believe that the NT admonitions refer to the dominance, rage, etc. issues, but I just haven't seen that biblically. Give me verses if you can, maybe I'm missing something - or, maybe you're looking for something that's not there? Check out Joe Dallas, I pray that can help you find some peace on all this.
God's peace go with you.
GMG
Apparently, ifeefine, supports both homosexuality and adultery. Because, according to him, Jesus didn't tell the woman not to involve herself in adultery...just not to sin. And, as apparent in ifeelfine, sin is relative to who you are, and what you want to do. They justify what they do, but saying it's not wrong. "Sin" is what the other person is doing...being who I am is what I'm doing.
It's the same thing talked about in the Bible about false teachings, and people wanting words that tickle their ears. It gets their eyes turned from the Truth just enough to get them going down the wrong road. a good analogy is when a ship is sailing from california to china. a one degree alteration in course is nothing....at first. The first couple miles everything is fine, but if not corrected then in2000 miles or 3000 miles you will be a couple hundred miles off course and miss the target completely.
Lets pray for ifeelfine. its hard to watch a fellow christian slowly being lead astray.
ifeel fine -
I do not doubt that homosexuals can feel very alone when it comes to finding christian answers without feeling judged, nor that those feelings that they are battling go deeper than so many other issues. Yes I am married, and heterosexual, and our sexualtiy besides being a God-given need for procreation goes deeper than that alone in humans - "two shall become one". It is also a completion. That union is physical and spiritual. And that is precisely the root of the problem.
If you are a person with deep-seated anger issues, that person might tell you that it swallows them whole, and if you are around them you see it affecting everything they do and how they see the world around them. I'm not trivializing the homosexual's dilemma, I'm just saying that major self-defining problems are a life battle in themselves.
GMG - As far as scripture goes, you have to look behind the scripture to find out the meaning. We don't condone slavery yet the Bible cleary does.
Anger (which Jesus directly talked about unlike homosexuality - gay marriage) is a feeling, homosexuality goes a lot deeper than that. I'm assuming that you are heterosexual - doesn't that go a lot deeper than the feeling of anger? Doesn't the love you have for you wife (assuming you are married) go a lot deeper than anger or another feeling? Gay people feel that same thing towards each other.
The passages in the Bible that seem to contradict homosexuality have nothing to do with that. They are about dominance, rape, etc. Go study it. Don't just read authors you agree with, read ones that give you a different perspective on the Truth.
“Test all things and hold fast to that which is good.” Thessalonians 5:21
GMG - It's interesting that you would use the woman at the well pasage of John since so many folks around here seem to want to cast the first stone. Note that Jesus didn't tell her not to commit adultery anymore - he said "Go and sin no more!" A big difference - Jesus wasn't even casting judgment on her telling her what she was doing was sin (even though it was). He was basically telling her to get on with her life.
As straight Christians, we have all the support we need. Now go talk to a gay person and see if they have the support they need from the church. I know the answer is no. But I will go check out Joe Dallas and see what he has to say - you're sure that's the author's name?
Proph - as far as "a couple of decades" ago - 155 years ago Christians were supporting slavery in the US. That was wrong and this is wrong.
ifeel fine,
"GMG & Prophet - Go back and read what you just wrote as if you were a lay person that was trying to be lead to Christ. Would any of what you just wrote come across portraying the love of God"
I have said nothing in a hardened or unfeeling manner. The only thing I would add is to point out that God will never leave us to do it alone, and why I can be certain of that.
Look, whether it is a lay person or a child of Christ who is running, God's truth is God's truth. It is never an easy job to deal with our own sin tendencies, whatever they may be. Jesus didn't sugar coat His words, wrong is wrong and right is right. With the woman at the well, Jesus said to her that she was sinning, go and sin no more. He didn't yell in her face, he didn't pat her on the back and say "Now dearie, you know that's probably not a good idea". He stated and truth and said now it's time to stop.
I'm sorry about your friends and their experience. But the decision, and struggle, still resides within our own heart. We all have to fight our own fights, the difference is that as christians we have all the support we need.
We have a delightful friend who is homosexual, and because of him we got one of Joe Dallas' books to try to find out how a homosexual could profess to be a christian and still justify and pursue the homosexual lifestyle. It was very eye-opening.
The unity of Christ's Church refers to the need for the Church to be undivided. There are to be no divisions among the members of the Church. For the Church to be one with Christ it must first maintain unity with itself. This aspect stems from Christ's remarks to the same point. "I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16 (NAB)[1]
I think what is the saddest aspect to all these stories about the Anglican, Presbyterian, independent Baptist churches, well known evangelical preachers,...is that they are changing the doctrine of what their churches were supposedly founded on. I mean a scandal involving a priest, minister, preacher,... I think people can get over that because they never tried to change dogma. However, what is going on within my protestant brothers and sisters churches is very troubling.
I'm still scratching my head over how Pat Robertson, Christian coalition founder and CBN owner, can endorse a pro-choice, pro homosexual marriage Catholic who will never get an endorsement from his own faith. These "bible believing" evangelicals are starting to chose dogma that is very strange. Thankfully the Pope will be on US soil soon. What a stark difference you are going to have between Robertson promoting a Catholic who has gone astray in his beliefs and a Pope who is going to be telling the US people not to vote for pro-choice/anti-family candidates. The Vatican has already released a statement before he arrives. The differences between churches gets more obvious every day.
I’m at peace in my church and will thinking about that today in church.
sorrry...it was supposed to read
remember what i said ...."only a couple decades ago, that is the same response you would have gotten from people if you talked about gay marriages."
ifeelfine
If i were trying to lead someone to Christ, I would be talking different. But I'm not. I'm talking to a fellow Christian. So how i talk to you, doesnt mean im gonna talk to an unsaved person the same way." only a couple decades ago, that is the same response you would have gotten from people if you talked about gay marriages." Not to long ago, California (bless their liberal hearts) was trying to pass a bill in their state that would change the word "pet owner" to something a little more PC like "guardian". Um....that's a little too close....
And as far as pets go...remember what I said. "
GMG & Prophet - Go back and read what you just wrote as if you were a lay person that was trying to be lead to Christ. Would any of what you just wrote come across portraying the love of God.
I don't even know where to begin with some of those comments. Comparing gay marriage / modern homosexuality with "people who are in love with their pets" doesn't make the least bit of sense. Animals cannot give consent and there clearly isn't the same type of relationship at all.
I know a couple of folks that went through Exodus personally - one was more messed up afterwards and the other came out with a lover - sounds like a great program. I would urge you to look at soulforce (www.soulforce.org) and at the work of Mel White.
You're both welcome to your interpretation but I believe its wrong.
Sin is still sin. And no matter how you slice bread....it's still bread.
Sorry Ifeelfine, I'm not buying that. It doesn't really matter what we think or feel, if it doesn't have a basis biblically than that's purely subjective reasoning. I don't know of anything in scripture that supports this idea. If you know of something that points to that view I'd be glad to study it.
In the meantime we have to go back to "God created....", I won't bother to repeat the verses because I'm sure you know them. We could use the same argument you have presented for any number of situations from anger and stealing and living together etc. etc. etc. you name it, because if "God put it in me" then it must not be bad. I have no idea what your age is, but I would guess that you have lived long enough to have struggled plenty with your own problematic tendencies, and discipline is a hard thing to come by. Nevertheless, we are still called to follow biblically the things He has set down for us.
There is an author by the name of Joe Dallas (I think his first name is Joe) who does a good job on some of these issues on homosexuality , and of course there's Exodus, and I'm sure a number of other groups, that have personal history in these lifestyles that it might be good to look at.
It would seem that you have a heart for the people trapped in this dilemma, which makes it rough to deal with. But difficult as it is, that doesn't change God's word.
"Our God is such a loving God that he wouldn't create people like this with so much love in their hearts and then say that love is wrong." So, if a child is born blind, we shouldn't try to change them? And dont be telling me it's different...because it's not. So, now you do away with the healing, delivering power of Jesus.
And, by that comment, what about incestuous relations? They have love. They were born that way. And don't forget about the people who are in love with their pets? OH MY GOD! DID I JUST SAY THAT? THAT IS SO NOT RIGHT! Well, as "gross" as that sounds....just remember. only a couple decades ago, that is the same response you would have gotten from people if you talked about gay marriages. Think about it.
GMG - I believe the Biblical admonitions were reserved for this type of situation because it has nothing to do with loving relationships, it has to do with dominance, power, abuse and victimization (basically what amounts to prison rape nowadays). Thes types of relationships were fairly common back them in Roman society.
As far as "heterosexual gays" - I don't believe there is such a thing. I believe back then they were heterosexuals taking part in homosexual activities which "went against their nature." I think gay people are born that way - made by God.
In the context of the Bible, its the only thing that makes sense. Think about it, do you know any gay loving couples? Well, maybe YOU don't but I know lots of them. And its not just a "feel good" type relationship. They have true love in their hearts for each other. Our God is such a loving God that he wouldn't create people like this with so much love in their hearts and then say that love is wrong. The homosexual relationships commonly described in the Bible have nothing to do with love - they are always forceful, etc. That's why I think Ruth and Naomi, Jonathon and David might have been lovers - I'm not saying they for sure were but certainly could have because are more like the gay relationships I'm familiar with.
Ifeelfine - It makes sense as far as an explanation for your previous statement. But I still don't understand why you think the biblical admonitions were reserved for that type of situation, and why you think there's a difference between heterosexual gays and homosexual gays.
I sometimes wonder if both sides will ever come to an agreement - I have my doubts bu God helps people see on His timeline - not ours.
GMG - Thanks for the question. What I mean is that during those ancient times, a common practice was for older males (esp. soldiers and the rich / educated) to have a younger male around them as an apprentice / servant and often times the older male would "violate" the younger male for the older one's pleasure. A lot of people think this is what Paul was talking about. I am one of them. So when they say given to unnatural or vile attractions they mean unnatural to that person (because the older male was almost always straight). Does that make sense?
ifeelfine -
"Yes, vile affections - he was talking about straight people engaging in homosexual behavior - not gay people engaging in homosexual behavior - its clearly not vile in that regard -its natural"
You've sure lost me here, please explain the distinction.
Regarding levirate marriages, sadly I do not think I know enough about them to give an answer, but because they are in the Bible I can say with uttermost confidence it was part of God’s plan. Is it His plan for it to happen today? I do not know. Perhaps it has been fulfilled as the adulterer being worthy of stoning has.
And for the adulterers, yes they are worthy of stoning. But praise God that he came to earth and died on the cross for sinners like you, me, and adulterers! He (Jesus Christ) took the place of all adulterers that put their faith in Him. Sadly, many adulterers and sinners of every kind will not obey Him and will “be killed” spiritually as they burn forever in Hell.
Regarding Slavery, yes the Bible supports it. Again, not supported it, but supports it, but not in the way you think. Indentured slavery is legal in the U.S. constitution even after Amendment 13: “The Abolishment of Slavery” was passed.
Amendement 13 States:
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Now, other forms of slavery in the Bible are not God’s plan, and yet, they are a real and sad curse that God has used on all nations that do not follow His ways. This includes His chosen people the Jews/Isreal.
ifeelfine72,
It sounds like you are genuine in your post. So I will proceed as so. First the Bible is clear that sodomy is a curse and a sin. Due to its length, I cannot quote it, but Rom 1: 21-32 takes us through the process by saying in part:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God…God gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their heart, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie…For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature…likewise the men leaving the natural use of a woman, burned in their list one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly…
Are we to stone adulterers? Condone slavery? Endorse levarite marriage?
Yes, vile affections - he was talking about straight people engaging in homosexual behavior - not gay people engaging in homosexual behavior - its clearly not vile in that regard -its natural.
And I'm not sure David and Jonathon could have been gay lovers - its certainly seems implied and the same goes for Ruth and Naomi.
Look I'm not saying the way we percieve homosexuality now is a sin or not - I'm not sure - but we certainly can have a debate about it but clearly your minds are made up already.
I'm sure 155 years ago you all would have been in favor of slavery because it was endorsed in the Bible too.
Jesus did talk about homosexuality a number of times in his preincarnate body in
the old testament scriptures and by his incarnate validatiion of the old testament,
and by his gloriified referrance to it in the Revelation.
ifeelfine72,
The Bible refers to it as sodomite and is refered to at least four times by name in the Old Testimate. The New Testimate referes to it as Effeminate and I am too tired to look up the other references. However, God is very clear that Sodomy is sin.
By the way, muggle. I'm not talking Old Testament here. Even in the New Testament, it doesn't say the word "homosexual" it actually describes the practice so that there is no disagreement. Romans Chapter one reads "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." That is self explanitory. For a man to be attracted to another man is sin. Period. for a woman to be attracted to another woman is sin. period. it has nothing to do with hebrew words and such.
forgive me for my brashness. but are you saying that homosexuality is NOT a sin?
Yes, ifeelfine, and David and Jonathon were gay lovers, Ruth and Naomi were lesbian lovers, and the Centurion that came to Jesus to ask for healing for his "servant"....well, they were gay lovers too, and Jesus blessed them. So now we all know that homosexuality is ok. And Christians are all a bunch of hot air. (is the sarcasm thick enough? or should i put another coat on?)
Muggleborn, would it surprise you that identical twins have different fingerprints and some are born with congenital conditions while their identical sibling is not?
And I know Prophet and I just aren't going to agree on this but the Bible isn't talking about homosexuality the way we know it now - it is more likely referring to pedastery and the like - there wasn't even a Hebrew word for homosexuality.
John5796 - you completely cleared it up. thanks.
I'm sure after being called perverts and sodomites - gay people will feel the love.
If someone said that you being a Christian is sinful but then said they loved you - how would you react.
Clearly you have some anger issues (something Jesus did directly talk about) - God doesn't hate you but he hates that sin. Repent of it . . . do you get how insulting that is?
This gets so old its sickening. To all the sodomites and perverts out there--the church does not hate you--it hates your sick sinful lifestyle. Go to a good bible believing church, and if you remotely believe in Christianity, repent of this sin and be saved and welcomed into the church. You cannot do the complete opposite of what the bible teaches and be welcomed into a Christian church. It only takes a fifth rate moron to understand this. Hope this clears things up.
yes, tomsj, Jesus didnt say anything about gays. But read the WHOLE Word of God. It does say something about homosexuality.
And I like how some people throw the word "judgement" around like a frisbee. Telling someone that something is a sin if the Bible says its a sin, is not judgement. It's speaking the Word of God. I suppose if you were driving 50 mph down a street posted for 35mph, and one of your passengers pointed out that you were speeding, you would probably deride them and tell them to quit judging you. This is no different.
Sounds like more of the same to me: love the sinner, hate the sin. Except now we're sugar-coating it. Christ said nothing about homosexuality. He did counsel those without sin to cast the first stone, however. Isn't it time to leave judgement to the almighty and get on with our own lives?
MuggleBorn - Ha ha, Sounds like you're a fan of the Office! Good on you. :)
It might very well have been that play; it sounds familiar - it must have been around a while as it was a lot longer than 10 years ago that I saw it.
I know too many gay people, have several gay relatives and definitely lean towards the nature rather than nurture. I knew that I was straight from a very young age and all of my gay friends tell me the same thing about being gay. I have a hard time believing that God makes any mistakes and I don't think my gay friends and relatives are a mistake inspite of what some "Bible believing Christians" (a dubious and condscending term if ever there was one) tell me.
TokenSP, BTW ... I should also mention that I don't want to push aside the fact that it "seems" unchangable. Look at the problems that many straight people have with pornography. I've fallen into the smut vat, myself. And climbing out is hardwhen you live in a culture that keeps dumping more of it on top of you ... please, no "That's what she said" jokes.
Well one day I will devote my time to studying the statistics the facts the arguements for and against, but I will say this, I learned that gays are born gay in psychology. I was incredulous, but as the arguement transgressed, I became convinced that it was very plausable, and while it may not be 100% yet, it certainly is somethig higher than 50% on the side of nature. But since I am not well educated in the subject any longer, I will allow you to get away with your statements :).
TokenSP,
There are some ex-gays out there, part of the very organization featured in this article, Exodus International. You might want to look into their website sometime ... haven't looked myself, but there may be some testimonials for more info.
Also, I had heard of a study done at one time (wish I knew the details) of the number of gays with twin siblings who were also gay. The results turned up about a 40/60 ratio; 40% of gays with a twin sibling that was also gay, the remainder had a twin sibling that was straight.
If twins really are genetically identical ... that's proof enough for me that it's not genetic.
It's the timeless "Nature Vs. Nurture" argument ... it kind of makes me lean towards nurture.
ifeelfine72,
>> I'm sure their hearts were in the right place but again probably misguided. <<
I don't think misguided ... but rather a little too focused on the "hot" issues. What you're talking about definitely seems more practical. Locally, I saw a play (I forget which Church produced it), called 'The Gates of Heaven, The Flames of Hell', about 10 years ago. The sketch content was more in line with what you mentioned.
I heard an interesting analogy given to me by a gay man who believed whole heartedly that his condition was given to him by birth, and that there was nothing in his power that would change him. He said to a woman who was discussing the issue with us "Imagine that I believed everyone person was a man, and that women are just men pretending to be women. What would you say then?" Well obviously the women would have the majority on her side and she could scoff at this mans beliefs becuase she could believe him to be crazy. But imagine if the majority agreed with him? What then of our women folk? Wouldnt they be agry at us for believing they were men when in actuality they were women? Same goes for gays... they have no ability to control themselves, and im sure there are many gays who if they could they would. I am not Christian but if I was, I would pray for the day that the world would realize that people are born gay.
Muggleborn: 20 some-odd-years-ago when I was a teenager and in Campus Life / Youth for Christ, there was this same kind of thing to get people to think about their lives and where they will spend eternity. There were little sketches or vignettes to show someone about to die that was saved and one that wasn't. But what I saw didn't show a girl who just got an abortion or a gay guy, it showed people who were either just plain mean to people and angry all the time, it showed guys who told jokes with more than a little inunendo, etc - things that all of us can really relate to. How many of us are gay or have had abortions? Probably not many - again, it seems like its an us versus them scenario. I'm sure their hearts were in the right place but again probably misguided.
JoshGilman,
>> Telling someone their entire life style is a sin isn't very heart warming <<
That is an excellent point. And because the most probable classification of homosexuality is of a “condition”, it’s not like you can just say, “Hey! I know! Why don’t ya just not be gay! There. Problem solved!”
I don’t buy that it’s genetic … but it’s GOT TO BE worse than just a habit or addiction. When you think about it from that sort of perspective, even trying to be understanding can come out as just being plain insensitive and ignorant.
ifeelfine72,
>> I suppose a guy that didn't feed the homeless or care for the poor wouldn't have had as good an effect as those culturally significant sins. <<
lol. I think you’re right... Maybe a guy that downloads unlicensed mp3s, though :) A presentation like that would be meant to deal with more intensely debated issues of our time. There were numerous sketches which also dealt with drug use, suicide, run-of-the-mill accidents, etc. The main point of each sketch was that those who accepted Christ were saved, those who didn’t were not.
The sketch I referred to for this post seemed like a consolidation of sins, to keep the whole presentation under an hour :)
The documentary was simply titled “Hell House”. It was made in 2001 and is unrated. You can check out the description on Netflix.com.
This is good to hear because Homosexuality is a very tough topic to discuss. From personal experience I tend to see that homosexuals generally respond very negatively to discussion of it and the Bible. Telling someone their entire life style is a sin isn't very heart warming.
It's good to know people are working to jump this gap, looking forward to see some progress from it :)
MuggleBorn - how many sketches did the "Haunted house" have showing the folks getting saved and those not getting saved? Isn't it interesting that out of all the sins in the Bible, the sketch included a gay person and a girl dying of a botched abortion (which the Bible doesn't speak about at all even though I personally believe it is a sin)?
I suppose a guy that didn't feed the homeless or care for the poor wouldn't have had as good an effect as those culturally significant sins.
Interesting anecdote...
I once rented a DvD, the ‘Hell House’ documentary, about the “Haunted Houses” that some Christian organizations setup around Halloween, which feature skits that illustrate the difference between people who would “most likely” be saved, according to scriptural interpretation, and those who would not.
One skit featured 2 people in a hospital; a girl dying of complications from an abortion procedure, and a man (a homosexual) also dying, in the late stages of an illness brought about from HIV infection. The girl cried out to Jesus to help her. An angel character then stepped between her and a demon character, telling the demon that she belonged to God, now. The man cursed God for his condition, and refused to repent of any sins (not necessarily JUST sexual immorality). He was portrayed as lost.
One of the spectators seemed obviously upset about what seemed to him, a direct attack on homosexuality. (It wasn’t, BTW … the scene could just as well have switched the lines between the man and the girl). One of the staff asked him, with great care and concern, what it was about the scene that bothered him. The young man said, “I have a lot of friends who are gay! What’s wrong with that?!? You’re just showin’ a bunch of F****** Christian *explicative meaning (bundle of sticks) S***! …Hoping this part doesn’t get me flagged .
In other words, he used the “F” word, the “S” word, and the common nasty derogatory word for gays … What struck me as funny and sad at the same time was that he said it to defend gays.
If it’s so hard to prove that “Christian” does NOT equal homophobic, it should at least be easy to prove that SOMETIMES, secular does.
Amen, amendoza!
I am glad I read throught the whole article. At first I thought this group was going to condone homosexualty. I have had many gay friends and our jobs as Christians is to make it known (not rudly) that we disagree with their lifestyle but we still love the person.
God bless all,
Anthony
www.bellybutton88.blogspot.com