A lesbian became the first homosexual minister to be ordained since the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America gave leeway to churches in disciplining pastors who violate a celibacy vow requirement.
Jen Rude, 27, was ordained on Saturday at Resurrection Lutheran Church in Chicago despite her refusal to take a vow of celibacy. She was installed on Sunday.
Under church policy, homosexual – and not heterosexual – ministers are required to make a vow of celibacy before they can be ordained. Although not currently in a relationship, Rude called the policy discriminatory.
Rude is the first homosexual pastor to test a resolution that urges ELCA bishops to refrain from disciplining pastors who are in "faithful committed same-gender relationships." The resolution was passed at a national assembly in August when members also rejected measures that would have allowed the ordination of non-celibate homosexual clergy.
More than 100 congregants witnessed Rude’s ordination and showed support for the lesbian pastor, whose father and grandfather are both Lutheran ministers.
"This is who we are and this is what we do," said Kathy Young, a member of Resurrection Lutheran Church, as reported by The Chicago Tribune. The congregation welcomes people of all sexual orientations and gender identities, according to its website.
"It's meaningful to me in the sense that my call is being affirmed not only by God but the people of God," Rude said.
Chicago bishop Wayne Miller did not try to block Rude's ordination but also did not attend the weekend ceremony. He met with the congregation last month to inform of the potential consequences of the ordination, such as expulsion, should the denomination choose to enforce the policy in the future, according to The Chicago Tribune.
"This does not imply any bitterness or any hostility. It's simply where we are right now," Miller told the local Tribune. "My goal is to keep people in the conversation, and I do not see this as an issue that should be dividing the church. I think it's one of the many places where difference of opinion can make the church stronger and healthier, as long as people stay at the table and keep talking."
Miller said he believes the celibacy policy should be lifted but also believes bishops should follow the church rule.
Despite the ordination, Rude's name will not be listed on the official rolls of ELCA clergy.
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is the largest Lutheran denomination, claiming 4.8 million members across the country.
RSS
"Oh, and I flagged myself because I mixed up my posts!"
Shame on you.
Feet: you probably haven't seen me on this post, but many here know who I am. We will pray for you. In the meanwhile, google : The Word for Today radio program, and listen to some of the podcasts. They'll give you solid Bible teaching from Pastor Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. In addition, you can google the Calvary Satellite Network and look up the radio show called PAstor's Perspective. You may have a Christian Radio Station close to you where you can call th show and ask them questions. They will try to answer your questions directly from the Word of God, as close to the context intended as possible.
With regard to this lesbian minister, they are not only ordaining a woman to be over men in the teaching of a congreagation which the Apostle Paul clearly teaches is not the way God intended for teaching, and furthermore, she is a homosexual, which is condemned in the Bible as a sin just like adultery and fornication, bestiality and other sexual immorality is. This liberal congregation is a digrace, and should not be called part of the Body of Christ, because they are in clear open disobedience to the Word's teachings on these matters.
Peace be to you. I too hope the Holy Spirit will guide you in all Truth. But, remember, stay in the Word
Feetxxxl:
Have a good weekend.
No, my brain just wasn't connecting all the dots on the one I flagged. Howsomever, if Tom can get flagged then I suppose anyone can get flagged, someone around here has developed quite a trigger finger!!!
GMG...
Can you stop doing that. You're freaking me out. I know your not as rude and obnoxious as me, but when i see you getting flagged it makes me wonder if i've been a bad influence on you. LOL.
Oh, and I flagged myself because I mixed up my posts! :(
"as far as "one flesh" im not completely clear about its total meaning . my only understanding is that for anything to embrace and be of god it has to embrace and be of agapi love.............................1john4 "god is love." "
The Greek and Hebrew have different words for different kinds of love, for instance, there is love between sister/brother, mother/daughter, husband/wife, etc., and of course we know that we don't love everyone in our lives with the same kind of love. Well, agape love is the general, all encompassing, God- commands- us- to- love- each- other kind of love. That is not the same word as is used for the husband/wife kind of love, the "two shall become one" kind of love. So "love your neighbor", being agape love, does not denote the same kind of love as a husband/wife would have for each other. The husband and wife are to have a bonding of the spirit, soul and body, hence "two shall become one". This is totally different from agape.
There are two other issues addressed in our previous posts that you still haven't answered, I would still like to know your understanding of the ideas I presented there.
feetxxxl -- "im not sure what you are saying women were denied rightsfrom the onset of time............check out wikipedia womens rights. point is for society to embrace these levels of social conscious they have to evolve to certain level of awareness. the turn of the century man(1900) would have been unable to understand ethnic equality"
No, they weren't, they were guaranteed protection from the beginning of time, that was the plan. You understand the concept of authority, any company without a direct line of authority would go down the tubes in a flash due to no one having the ultimate decision making capability, and I might add, the responsibility for those decisions and their outcomes rests on the shoulders of the one carrying that authority. Well, God set up the chain of authority, and if man would follow God (the first authority) in His instructions, the woman would be the most loved, cherished, and enabled person on the face of the earth. We now have the capability of expanding our abilities outside the area of survival, our world is a much easier place now when it comes to the area of providing for our basic needs. Subjugation of women is the outcome of the sin in the Garden, not God's will. Remember, God provided a helpmate, not a doormat. You're not much of a helpmate if your God-given abilities are not treasured and utilized for the "two halves make a whole".
Feet--nope I can't remember but I do know that i belonged to the he-man woman haters club when I was quite young. Now look at me married for 21 years 4 kids and a dog. let me ask you do you remember learning to walk or talk or being taught how to use the potty as oppose to diapers or anything before the your 3 or 4 years. Most of us don't remember them years and according to those who study this stuff, this is when our personalities are formed. Interesting I thought.
Gods Blessing on ya
In Christ
Tom
feet...
"my only understanding is that for anything to embrace and be of god it has to embrace and be of agapi love.............................1john4 "god is love."
That is true...and it's that love that brought Jesus to this earth to die on the cross so that homosexuals, murderers, liars, coveters, etc, etc, could have a chance to be forgiven and come out of that lifestyle and live a life of overcoming, victory, and healing.
im not sure what you are saying women were denied rightsfrom the onset of time............check out wikipedia womens rights. point is for society to embrace these levels of social conscious they have to evolve to certain level of awareness. the turn of the century man(1900) would have been unable to understand ethnic equality.
as far as "one flesh" im not completely clear about its total meaning . my only understanding is that for anything to embrace and be of god it has to embrace and be of agapi love.............................1john4 "god is love."
feetxxxl - "gmg i misspoke when i said they were property..........................although their rights were subserviant to the husband, the control over the wife was very similar to what exists today in taliban communities, as far the husband dictating what a wife can do or not do."
In the OT times life was very primitive, which is very hard for us to comprehend. God endowed humans with the proclivities necessary to do the jobs he set for us to do. Men he made protectors, providers, etc. and gave them what they needed to do the job, women were childbearers, caretakers, etc. with what they needed for that. If a husband died, his brother was to marry the widow or she could not survive. God's provision for authority was God - prophets - priests - man - woman. He set it all up based on a logical sequence and gave to each what was needed for the job.
NT times were somewhat more "modern", but still Jesus listed the line of authority as Jesus - man - woman. You will remember that we are told "husbands, love your wife as Jesus loves the church, and gave His life for it". That is a tall order, and calls for a large love.
God made Adam a "helpmate", not a doormat. In NT times there were many women who had important significant roles, and Paul, who is said to be against women's rights, praised these women for their work. Even in OT times, there were many women used mightily of God, Esther is one great example. The problem is humankind, and it began in the Garden.
God made man and woman to be joined together to become one. Man is one half, woman the other, both different according to God's design, two distinct halves that together make a whole. This was His plan.
My last post addressed each of your issues from your post, I would appreciate hearing from you on these other issues.
tom
when was that period in your life when you were equally attracted to both men and women, and chose a heterosexual life.
gmg i misspoke when i said they were property..........................although their rights were subserviant to the husband, the control over the wife was very similar to what exists today in taliban communities, as far the husband dictating what a wife can do or not do.
below was is description of rights of women in 1848,. after the first convwention for womens rights it was 72 years before they were given the right to vote. the understanding of scripture played a pivotal role in society's willingmess to grant those rights.
Married women were legally dead in the eyes of the law
Women were not allowed to vote
Women had to submit to laws when they had no voice in their formation
Married women had no property rights
Husbands had legal power over and responsibility for their wives to the extent that they could imprison or beat them with impunity
Divorce and child custody laws favored men, giving no rights to women
Women had to pay property taxes although they had no representation in the levying of these taxes
Most occupations were closed to women and when women did work they were paid only a fraction of what men earned
Women were not allowed to enter professions such as medicine or law
Women had no means to gain an education since no college or university would accept women students
With only a few exceptions, women were not allowed to participate in the affairs of the church
feet please understand I think in this country everybody should be able to live under the current laws and without special privileges. I agree even to those in the gay community, however Homosexuality is a matter of choice and they should not have any more special rights or protection then anybody else and these laws should be enforced. This also means that they should be willing to accept criticisim for there actions just like everybody else. They are no different then anybody else, except when it comes to Christians and Christianity and then the really only difference is we are have repented accepted Christ as Savior and have been forgiven set free from the bondage of sin. Gods Blessing on you and yours
In Christ
Tom
how eloquent. how moving...like a hallmark channel Christmas movie. let me get a tissue.
but as moving and heart wrenching as that was, it still can't cover sin. because the same thing could be said about abortion too...or do you condone that as well? never mind...i dont want to know.
But you would make a great politician. "I did not have sex with that woman" "Define sex. is doing it orally considered sex since there was no penetration?" Walk the line, see how close you can come to hell and still keep your wings...mm mm.
Twist all you want...God's judgement is true and eternal.
God loves the homosexual...that's why He sent His son to die on the cross for their sin, and to draw them out of that lifestyle...
feetxxxl - there is a difference between life being hard and difficult, and having to process those same difficulties carrying a heavy burden"
Ok, maybe you need to explain what you mean by this. The apostles were stoned, reviled, imprisoned, hungry, tired, sore, misunderstand, hated, all this I'm sure made them desperately lonely, I assume they were healthy males so they were probably self-imposed eunochs, their original plans and dreams for their lives were left behind for the sake of Jesus. These are not serious burdens? Paul beseeched the Lord to remove the "thorn in his flesh", and was told "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness". 2Cor 12:9. Not to mention Jesus, who carried the burden of all humanity before being tortured and then crucified. Now, explain to me just how your burden is more significant, because I just don't see it.
"are you saying that "one flesh " is not agape.......................in truth isnt agape what "one flesh" describes, accomplished thru the grace of the spirit."
Most definitely "one flesh" is not agape. Where did you get the idea that it was?
"my understanding about genesis is although the woman was mere property, in marriage she was to be much more to the man................... the property owner."
God called Eve "helpmate" for Adam, so where do you get the idea of her being property, and property owner after marriage? I've never heard an idea like this. Please tell me how you came to such an understanding.
"of course god would give adam, a female helpmate, procreation was critical to man's survival. its taken 4000 years before man had the capacity to even understand the essence of homosexuality. it took the same to understand ethnic and gender equality. homosexuality was as foreign to the understanding of that time as flying to the moon. "
If you really believe this, then you really do believe that God (Holy Spirit) is indeed fallible, because again, if He is not an all-knowing God then you are right, He would not have known of man's capability of arriving at this new insight. That would mean that He was fallible, therefore he is not god.
Once again I ask you, is your god fallible?
did you know that for the first time in this country homosexuals have been given the oppurtunity to live normal lives.
prior to today homosexuals were rejected by society(including the church), abandoned by friends and family, told by believers that they were damned to hell, if they succcombed to any of their feelings(reaching out to be with someone of the same gender and in the process having intimate relations) and subject to possible incarceration, assault and even murder. the highest suicide group were gay teens. their percentages were three times higher than any other group.
and the thing that changed this whole situation wasnt compassion from the church for those persecuted. what changed the situation was that homosexuality was deemed legal.
by no longer being illegal , they were equal with heterosexuals before the law and for the first time had the possibility of having a normal life.
and the scourge of aids that caused the death of many homosexuals, actually was the instrument of their liberation, because it forced them to have to come out of the closet to seek help to deal with the disease, and it forced heterosexuals to witness the premature deaths and have their own 1john1 witness with those that suffered. the witnessing and resulting relationships that were forged with heterosexuals formed the basis of the support group that eventually grew so large as to enable the court decision.
what also contributed to court decision was the sexual revolution in the sixties that changed our understanding of our sexuality, the religious revolution of the seventies that gave people the ability to look at their own faith from an independent point of view. and the recent social revolution that has afforded society the ability to honor individual opinion.
the court decison, the support, the empathy, even homosexual activism could never have happened in the fifties. and in case you are too young to know the fifties, it was a time when religion was looked upon in many circles as merely as a societal invention..................................it was the dog eat dog decade.........and religion was confined to sundays, their was no such thing as indiviual opinion.( one held the ideas of the group they associated with)and sex was an discussable subject.
"its taken 4000 years before man had the capacity to even understand the essence of homosexuality. it took the same to understand ethnic and gender equality. homosexuality was as foreign to the understanding of that time as flying to the moon."
Are you sure? Did you live back then? You have any idea what people thought about or practiced sexually? I didnt think so.
"procreation was critical to man's survival." Tell that to God. Afterall, he did create Adam and Eve. And probably multitudes more. Genesis 4:15 says "But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him." Anyone who? There was just Adam, Eve and Cain. (Abel had been murdered)
and you also said "my understanding about genesis is although the woman was mere property, in marriage she was to be much more to the man................... the property owner." I see how that is reflected in this "Jesus" you claim to follow where He quotes the same verse found in Genesis. And also in the epistles where husbands are commanded to LOVE their life partner (whoops...i meant to say "wife"...my bad). So far, proof of what the Bible DOES say far outweighs what it "DOESN'T" say.
"There is nothing in the Bible that promises us easy. Your quote on "my yoke is easy" was about His gentleness and His peace, not about our battle. He makes it clear that life WILL BE tough. 11 of His apostles died pretty horrific martyr's deaths for His sake, I don't believe they thought there was anything easy about that."
there is a difference between life being hard and difficult, and having to process those same difficulties carrying a heavy burden
"Love your neighbor....this commandment uses the work agape for love I believe. This is a word describing a general encompassing love, the love Jesus calls us to have towards humankind."
are you saying that "one flesh " is not agape.......................in truth isnt agape what "one flesh" describes, accomplished thru the grace of the spirit.
Feet, you can't generalize the Bible because you feel there should be some exception for something you "feel" is better than something else. Jesus' words to us do not involve feelings, they involve His perfect will. His apostles were charged with going out and spreading this news. And they have written down for us God's inspired word. Either that is true, or God is just a god.
everything i have written i have annotated with scripture. and there has yet to be given an explanation as to how the words of the verses declare homosexuality is a sin. annotation is important. a number of comments i originally wrote i had to erase because when reread the scripture i was referring to, i realized my words were not what the scripture said.
my understanding about genesis is although the woman was mere property, in marriage she was to be much more to the man................... the property owner.
my understanding is that the book of lev was written 300 years before christ.
i didnt say quote the verses................ i know the verses. i asked to explain how the words of those verses say homosexuality is a sin.
all that is necessary is for someone to explain to me how the words explain to them that homosexuality is a sin
of course god would give adam, a female helpmate, procreation was critical to man's survival. its taken 4000 years before man had the capacity to even understand the essence of homosexuality. it took the same to understand ethnic and gender equality. homosexuality was as foreign to the understanding of that time as flying to the moon.
for this reason will a MAN leave his mother and father and cling to his WIFE.
There is no "what the Bible DOESN'T say". And to say that the Holy Spirit says something contrary to the Word of God is, at its best, moronic. The Holy Spirit told you that gay marriages was okay? Funny...the Holy Spirit told me that a man is to be married only to a woman.
And be very careful about attributing sin to the Holy Spirit...that is a sin that will not be forgiven.
feet:
so what you're saying is that incestuous relationships arent a sin.
A fellowship, of any kind, does not change God's plans. There are many people who are involved in many things that they consider good, but that doesn't mean it is of God. It also doesn't automatically mean it's not. For a child of God the first criteria is always, is God first in our consideration, and what is His Word in this area. We seek His way first, our way last or never.
There is nothing in the Bible that promises us easy. Your quote on "my yoke is easy" was about His gentleness and His peace, not about our battle. He makes it clear that life WILL BE tough. 11 of His apostles died pretty horrific martyr's deaths for His sake, I don't believe they thought there was anything easy about that.
Love your neighbor....this commandment uses the work agape for love I believe. This is a word describing a general encompassing love, the love Jesus calls us to have towards humankind.
Feet, you can't generalize the Bible because you feel there should be some exception for something you "feel" is better than something else. Jesus' words to us do not involve feelings, they involve His perfect will. His apostles were charged with going out and spreading this news. And they have written down for us God's inspired word. Either that is true, or God is just a god.
So I ask you again, is your god fallible?
feetxxxl - through reading your posts, I'm not sure any explanation I give will clarify for you what I'm trying to say, and will annotations really help? I use the NKJ translation, will you question the education, understanding, etc. etc. of the commentators? I don't know, but I will try to clarify.
I went back to Genesis and "We created...", We being the triune God. That means the Holy Spirit was in on the creation of man and woman and covenant joining. This is God's plan, therefore the Holy Spirit's plan also. If the Holy Spirit is now telling you that the plan has changed, it's now the 21st century, and the joining is now expanded to _____ and _____ (fill in the blanks), then God (Holy Spirit) has changed His plan. He is therefore a changling God. A changling God is fallible, not perfectly all knowing (if He couldn't foresee a committed man/man relationship and include it in the original plan, then He's not all knowing, right?).
From the creation of man, and woman from and for man, the Holy Spirit said "it is good". That's not the Law, the Law was not in effect at that time. It is purposeful creation.
God did not include anything in the NT about marijuana, incest, heroin, speed limits, or any number of things, but He did include much instruction on how to live that tells us His intent in these areas.
His original creation was a man, a woman, a covenant relationship together. This is so very clear. He has not added any amendments to change that.
Scripture aftef scripture feet you know which ones. We have tried to explain it to you. We have quoted verses, broke down the meaning of the words in Greek for ya. Had people far more knowledgeable then you or I try to explain it to ya but you just refused to hear Gods word in the plain language as He intended. Let me ask something sir--If God is all seeing, if God is all knowing, If God is everywhere then don't you think He would of foresaw this debate and had the writers of the Bible change it as they were writing it. I think He would have but you see He didn't becasue it means what it says feet homosexaulity is no different then other sex related sins or for any other sin fo that matter. They are all sin and sin can cause us to be seperated from God for ever. If we don't repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and sin no more. Gods Blessing on you feet. Wilderness and Jester keep on preaching it and I hope God Bless your socks off,
In Christ
Tom
Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Adam did not awaken to see a man, he awoke to see that which is good, a woman. When Adam sinned, he caused all of humanity to be born into the sleep of sin and death. A homosexual is sleeping in unrighteousness.
“Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame” (1 Corinthians 15:34).
“Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Eph 5:14).
“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light” (Romans 13:11, 12).
what doesnt exist is an annotation that says, that if a same sex couple bonds in the same spirit for the same purpose, it is against god.
instead in the gospels jesus says you will recognize what is of god by its fruits, if it exudes the fruit of spirit.................it is of god
matt7:16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
matt7:20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
matt12:33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
what does not exist is any scripture that says in christ anything not mentioned or spoken of in the law, is against god.
additionally scripture says the reverse. in the gospels jesus says there is MUCH(a whole lot more) MORE he has to tell us, that at moment such things spoken, we could not bear. so he will wait until the right time, and then he will tell us.
john16: 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you
feet:
what in the world is the four percent rule?
And show me in the Bible where it says that incest is wrong. It doesnt. so it must be okay.
(im being sarcastic, by the way)
Can anyone tell me what Ephesians 5:31, Matthew 19:5, and Genesis 2:24 say?
tom
that's it, isnt it . the words arent there.
the explanation offered had additional things put either between the words or added to them. additions that could not be credibly back up with any scriptural annotations.
also there is no explanation of how homosexuality comes against loving your neighbor as yourself, the summation of the law.
that is one of the reasons why i suggested a 1john1 witness fellowship in christ................ that in this, one might find some credible evidence.
feet over and over people have shown through the Bible that it is a sin and it is unrighteous and it is against Gods precepts. If you refuse to see the truth then we can't help ya. We are praying for you tho, but you must be willing to submit to His authority and His understanding not your own. As has been said over and over. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Gods Blessing on your journey.
In Christ
Tom
tom and mik770
please show me the verses and explain how the words in those verses say homosexuality is a sin.
homosexuality being the the human bonding of two persons of the same sex out of mutual love, attraction, respect, and trust for a shared committed life together.
The bottom line is the Biblle say in bothe the Old and the New Testament that homosexuaity is a sin. If you live that lifestyle you have no right being in any church leadership. Romans 1: 21-32
it is interesting that 1st John says ALL unrighteousness is sin,,, and we all know that the Bible says homosexaulity is unrighteousness so it is a sin. It is unnatural and contary to Gods commandments. feet I think is just trying to give people a license to sin. Gods blessing
In Christ
Tom
"None of us have divinity, nor were we priviledged to sit at the feet of divinity. Neither our word nor our fellowship, no matter how large a group in agreement, has the authority to speak with divine-given knowledge in Jesus' stead. If the Holy Spirit can institute amendments to God's Word through the centuries, then He is not divine; God then becomes a changeling, and we then no longer have a divine, perfect God. If the Creator cannot lay out a perfect plan for His creation from the beginning, then He is not all knowing, He is simply fallible. Is this the god you believe in? "
gmg
could clarify what you are saying along with annotation. im really not clear on what you are attempting to say. thank you.
jester_in_the_Kings_court
according to the four percent rule there are 12 milllion in this country 320, million worldwide. what percentage would you say have been transformed. what are the numbers?
apart from that would you not that you are attempting to put a heavy burden on someone for the sake of a point of the law..................in essence you are attempting to put them under the law. the law , something that even by following we receive neither god's righteousness or our salvation.
knowing that would you still say that such a position is an example of christ's love
feetxxxl - 1John 1:1 is a testimony of John to the divinity of Jesus. It has nothing to do with anyone elses testimony about anyone or anything else. John was giving this testimony in order to show what authority he had to speak in Jesus's stead.
None of us have divinity, nor were we priviledged to sit at the feet of divinity. Neither our word nor our fellowship, no matter how large a group in agreement, has the authority to speak with divine-given knowledge in Jesus' stead. If the Holy Spirit can institute amendments to God's Word through the centuries, then He is not divine; God then becomes a changeling, and we then no longer have a divine, perfect God. If the Creator cannot lay out a perfect plan for His creation from the beginning, then He is not all knowing, He is simply fallible. Is this the god you believe in?
you also said..."here you are putting your limitation on what the spirit of christ can do in a committed intimate relationship between two of the same sex. "
Well, you are putting limitation on what the Spirit of Christ can do in changing a person both inside and out. The god you serve is powerless. The God I serve can change a person, heal them, bring sight to the blind, raise the dead to life, bring hearing to the deaf, etc.
feet...who are YOU to say that a man doesn't love his dog or horse and want to have a relatiionship with them? Quit being so judgemental! It's LOVE!
Actually, the word of God is putting a limitation on what God will do.
My witness is the Holy Spirit and the word of God.
here you are putting your limitation on what the spirit of christ can do in a committed intimate relationship between two of the same sex.
here again what is your witness in christ to commited intimate relationships between same sexes. isn't time for you to stop hypostulating what is, and instead make a 1john1 witness in christ to what you are supposing. without a witness in fellowship you have only an untested unsubstantiated belief.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
A man does not love himself, if he loves another man in sexual intimacy. He is sinning, unable to complete the commandment, “as his own body.” For a man to love his mate as himself, the relationship (marriage) must be male and female. The word of God is clear, a wife is female, never a male.
jester_in_the_Kings_court
surely you are not comparing bestiality, some human obsession about animals with two human beings bonding out of mutual love,attraction, respect,and trust for a shared committed life together.
are you saying that bonding of two the same sex is more comparable to beastiality than heterosexual bonding?
please explain?
what is unloving in saying that in addition to confessing with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believing in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, that someone who lives a "good" life, or give enough money to charity, or looks good enough, cant be saved as well. Heck...the Bible is like the constitution isnt it? Just add amendments because only God inspired it....and He's not perfect, so we have to help him out.
by your statement, feet, you have attempted to pull God down to your level because you're lazy. Well, its your eternity...not mine that you're screwing up.
Yeah i see Jesus' love...
Matthew 10:34-38 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
There's a lot of love there.
You said "what is unloving in saying that in addition to a man leaving his parents and cleaving to a woman to be one flesh. men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, rather than placing a heavy burden of obstention or the heavy burden of having change what they are attracted to..............that they also can bond to that which they are attracted to out of mutual,love ,respect, and trust to also become one flesh."
So, incestuous marriages are ok? Someone who "loves" their pet can marry them without judgement of God because it's "love".
wilderness
titus 2:11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
here again paul tells us to make proactive choices of the spirit of self-control, uprightness(goodness), godly(goodness and faithfulness) over ungodliness( idolatryand debauchery) and worldly passions(selfish ambition and sexual immorality)
prophet
"Homosexuality is a sin. There are many brothers and sisters in bondage to it, and I pray for them. I love them. But loving them does not mean that I condone homosexuality."
homosexuals live their orientation 24/7 , in some cases since they were a small child.
are you saying that i, prophet,who have no understanding as what is means to have a homosexual orientation, the most i have to offer my brothers in chist whom i share the same inheritance is either my arm chair ruminations over what is a sin and what is not a sin, or my understanding of a teaching about a specific point of the law. that of myself i bare no responsiblity to test this understanding thru one on one fellowship in christ.
i have a hard time seeing much love in that.
"eh...homosexuality is still a sin...no matter what spin you put on it...." im not calling for a spin but a test thru a fellowship witness, in the spirit of christ to see if those who you condemn actually serve of a different spirit, than that of christ.
romans 7:But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
you assume they serve of a different spirit, that fruit of the spirit that they serve is not love, joy,peace, kindness,patience.self-control,gentleness,goodness, and faithfulness. but until you have witnessed in christ your assumption is unsubstantiated, and you offer no credible witness..............................only suppostition.
gmg
does holy spirit negate lev? what is unloving in saying that in addition to a man leaving his parents and cleaving to a woman to be one flesh. men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, rather than placing a heavy burden of obstention or the heavy burden of having change what they are attracted to..............that they also can bond to that which they are attracted to out of mutual,love ,respect, and trust to also become one flesh.
matt11:
29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
yet i know there are those among you who would rationalize how having to make these changes is not a heavy burden for the sake of their own theology.
that is why i have said what is your test? as a christian there is only one test, witness thru fellowship. because we see only in part, a poor reflection. it is only thru walking in the light , walking in fellowship that thru the grace of the spirit(being under grace) that we will see and understand what is the truth in christ.
and that witness is a 1john1 witness.............that which "we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched" that was the only way that john could credible testimony as to jesus being christ. can we do any less to give credible testimony as to what is of christ?
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).
As you can see, grace teaches us to deny and live. How may I profit fully under the tutelage of grace? “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
Sadly, there are those who resist the teachings of grace. They turn grace into a license to sin. They twist the scriptures unto their own destruction. They turn a truth into a lie, so that they might continue in their ungodly ways.
Humbleness is the tuition for greater teaching. “…Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble” (James 4:6).
i know how you feel. So many Christians approach prayer with a shopping list mentality. Give me this, give me that, gimme, gimme! They don't take time to listen! And then they say "I just don't know if God wants me to do this." or "I just can't seem to get an answer". Because they have never listened to God to begin with, so they don't know His voice! Just like marriage. If you never listen to your spouse you will never truly know their voice. I better stop...lol. I did a sermon on overcoming the giants in our lives once, and most of it had to do with prayer. that was a little exerpt from it. I could keep going, but dont want to speak too much.
Prophet, guess I said that wrong, I meant that 10% of people "listening" might be too high. Though it is true that a few of the people I know truly seem to place their life, decisions and actions into His care and guidance on a regular basis, which makes it food for the soul when we have a chance to get together. Wish I knew more of them.
GMG
Sorry. that's just an estimate based on conversations I've had with other christians, and watching the people in my church and how they act and what they say. But I must say that the church my brother goes to, that percentage is probably closer to 50%.
You said "Years ago I learned about talking to Him throughout the day, it took a bit longer to incorporate quietness and listening at those times also, and it continues to be a work in progress." That's what Paul meant when he said to pray without ceasing. It's to be in tune with God at all times. To be able to find quietness througout the day to just talk and listen. And even while your working and God speaks to you (he's done that to me many times) being sensitive to hear. I have no doubt you hear from Him often. I can tell by reading your posts on here.
Prophet, you said earlier of listening to the Holy Spirit "And the sad truth is, that 90% of Christians don't! " You may be too high on your estimation, unfortunately. It is so hard to get out of our busy world, our busy lives, and get quiet with our Lord, which is what fuels us for the "inbetween" times. Years ago I learned about talking to Him throughout the day, it took a bit longer to incorporate quietness and listening at those times also, and it continues to be a work in progress. Anyway, I just wanted to say God bless you in your work and study.
In Christ
oh, double doo doo, prophet. I had a pastor say to me once "When God stops speaking to you, you know you're done for". I feel sorry for anyone to whom God has stopped speaking.
Homosexuality is a sin. There are many brothers and sisters in bondage to it, and I pray for them. I love them. But loving them does not mean that I condone homosexuality. To me, i'm calling out to them to get them to come out from among them and be separate. To them, it's nagging, intrusive, judgemental. That's why I've all but stopped posting on this article. You've heard my cry, and you chose to ignore it. Your blood is off my hands...it's on your own now. God didn't ask me to change your mind, or convince you of anything. Only He can change a heart of stone into a heart of flesh. But sometimes the heart of stone is too hard even for His love to pierce. He only asked me to speak His Truth. And that's all I've done. The judgement is upon you now. I will warn you no more. I will call to you no more. My heart breaks, but He has told me to say no more. I am done.
feetxxxl - I'm looking at what you're saying, trying to put it into some frame of reference, and it seems to me that you are saying something along the line of the following.
The commandment to love thy neighbor as myself tells me to share love, allows for a variety of depth of feeling for that neighbor based on the Holy Spirit's leading. Since the law has been replaced by grace, I am no longer under law, therefore the freedom to love is not subject to law but rather all things are allowable under the Spirit's leading. 1Thes 5:21 "Test all things; hold fast what is good" tells me that you have tested it through the Spirit and your belief has been confirmed. Am I close? I do not know where 1John 1:1 comes in, as that is John's assertation that he knew Jesus intimately and could testify to who He was.
I am particularly fascinated by the book of Galatians. Paul is a very firey lawyer demolishing Law and proving Grace. How then could he give so much testimony as to Christ's expectations for how we should live, if he considered it law. And a lot of the scripture quoted here comes from Paul.
In Genesis it says "We created...." , the "We" being the triune God. If the Holy Spirit was in on the creation of Adam and Eve and the covenant relationship set up at that time, which was certainly before the Law, how could that same Spirit come along later and negate His own original intent?
I pray God would help feet to understand what sin is,,,,,and that it is keeping him from God. I pray that he will ask God for a heart of fire for Him. A fire that would consume the thoughts of mediocrity and complacency. That he would learn that love isn't always kissy huggy, and goosebumps...that it is sometimes being told that he is doing something wrong to keep him out of fellowship with our God.
"What wonderful job Wilderness as well as GMG and Prophet and others, I wish you Gods Blessing and greater wisdom. However I would pray for feet's eyes to be open and his ears to hear and his heart to soften so he will begin to understand what Gods Spirit is telling him through His people who believe in His Son Jesus Christ."
yet, ill bet you none of you have tested your understanding(1thess5:21) by making a 1john1 witness to your brothers in christ who happen to be homosexual, who disagree on one point of the law to see first hand of what spirit they serve.
a belief substantiated without fellowship is one held without the benefit of the light.
\
out of a sense of justice(in scripture 141 times) dont you believe merely as fellow believers of the same christ and same spirit that this is the least you should be able to offer.
eh...homosexuality is still a sin...no matter what spin you put on it....
wilderness
here again you taking a scripture and adding your own emphasis on it. its not of the spirit, because your are attempting to put limitations on the spirit. limitations on human relations for the sake of the law. you cannot explain why homosexuality is against christ except thru an interruptation of the law. in doing so you are putting yourself under the law. you keep dodging the question of how does the spirit of the essnce of homosexuality come against christ and the summation of the law.............loving your neighbor as yourself.
6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
What wonderful job Wilderness as well as GMG and Prophet and others, I wish you Gods Blessing and greater wisdom. However I would pray for feet's eyes to be open and his ears to hear and his heart to soften so he will begin to understand what Gods Spirit is telling him through His people who believe in His Son Jesus Christ. Gods Blessing on you and yours.
In Christ
Tom
“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man” (1 Corinthians 11:8, 9)
A man is not of the woman, neither is the man of the man, but the woman is of the man. Man was not created for woman or for a man, but the woman was created for the man.
All homosexuals can be delivered and set free from their sin and their deception. All they need to do is cry out for mercy! Cry out for help to be delivered! Cry out to Jesus! Repent and embrace the cross of Christ for new life! What a wonderful offer for all homosexuals.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
The woman has a natural use. Jesus did not come to eliminate that natural use or to offer an alternative. If a man wants a relationship, then he must stay with woman and not leave her natural use. Man was not created to have a natural use with another man.
In addition, when a man unites with a man, regardless of the reason, God sees it as lust, that which is unseemly, and a vile affection. In God’s eyes, such relationships are never built upon a true and godly love.
Love can be misdirected
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
here again scripture shows choices we can make to be of the spirit rather than of the sin nature. but here again its choices to do something, not emphasis in not doing something............choices of the heart.
Remember, the New Covenant tells a man that he can only avoid fornication by abstinence or marriage to a woman only (1 Corinthians 7:1, 2). The New Covenant warns us that the wrath of God will come upon those who commit fornication.
“Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience” (Col 3:5, 6).
With that in mind, the New Covenant also reveals that no fornicator will be allowed to inherit the kingdom of God.
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21).
you are jumping right back into the law by creating a new system of prohibitions, created by your own understanding. yet scripture says we see in part and a poor reflection. taking the a word like fornication you are creating a whole system of understanding about how not to do it. that is not proactive like the three commandments. that is law all over again..... about not doing. we have have only three commandments, all are commands about love. can you say the spirit is concerned whether you fornicate or not. or isit more about your concern for the sake of your own piety. paul said the law is merely for conscuous............... consciuos of not loving our neighbor as ourselves ..............not loving our neighbor .............not loving ourselves. surely then our concern about fornicating, but how it is not about the love of the commandment. the truth is when we focus on christ and being led by the spirit we automatically obstain from fornicating......and accomplish much more in the process. paul gave us directions on what love is about in romans 12.and 1cor13 .
but when our concern becomes about whether we are fornicating or not we have stepped out of love, out of being of the spirit and now are back under the law.
john also brought up the issue of fellowship which is also part of love.
if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of christ purifies us from all sin. in fellowship we are automatically protected by the blood of christ.
yet felowship requires that we honor each other's life experiences.................what at a particular time,one did see, experience, feel,hear, understand etc. something that has been sadly absent in the understanding about homosexuality. the fact is they have been credited with nothing, bearly acknowkledged to be fellow human beings let alone brothers in christ who share our inheritance. how is it that anyone can assume that their judgement would be of the light without fellowship. if one is not in the light, he is in darkness, if he is darkness what does that say about his judgement.
the only holiness that is our lives is thru grace, since we are now under grace. we have no holiness except thru the spirit. when we let ourselves be led by it.
that leaves most men empty..............................because they need rulesand laws.............but instead of thinking rules and laws............................... think directions about loving.
Relationships:
This is New Covenant direction.
“But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat” (1 Corinthians 5:11).
How does a man avoid fornication? “Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband” (1 Corinthians 7:1, 2).
The word is settled. The only way for a man (every man) to avoid fornication is abstinence or marriage. Marriage to whom? A Wife. What is a wife? The word of God always clarifies that a wife is a woman and not a man.
Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 5:11 directs a Christian not to keep company with a fornicator who calls himself a brother. That would include a homosexual calling himself a brother.
GMG...
"Listening to the Holy Spirit is a matter of the will - choice." And the sad truth is, that 90% of Christians don't! Especially when they read the Word of God. Before I study (I don't read...i study) I pray and ask the Holy Spirit to open my eyes and lead me into all truth. But many Chrisitians (and all non-Christians) just read and when God starts speaking to them, the ignore Him in exchange for what they want to hear. God has said things to me that have scared the living daylights out of me...but I listened. He has convicted me of things that I was once okay with...but I listened. It's tough. It's hard. That's the difference between someone who just wants to be "A Christian" and someone that wants their entire life to be "Christ-like". Those who truly want to be like Him, must walk the same road He did. There's no short cuts. There's no easy way. There's no mulligans or gimme's. Anyone can recieve Jesus into their lives and get saved. Only few can walk in His shoes.
feetxxxl - Substitute the word "adulterer" in your first paragraph and you may more easily see the error in this. Or change it to pedophile, and would you frequent that church? Ongoing sexual sin of any nature is a big problem. Which brings us to the rest of your post, and that is there are many types of sexual problems, and sexual addiction does not limit itself to any particular bent.
Look, there are some that assert the word "homosexual" never existed during OT/NT times, but the concept based on the activity sure did, so using a different word for the same concept does not invalidate the concept. They didn't have the word pedophile either I would guess, but that doesn't change anything either. And the Bible makes it very clear that God's intention for man was a covenant relationship (marriage) between one man and one woman, no other combination was in His plan.
Listening to the Holy Spirit is a matter of the will - choice. We have a very human tendency to only see what we want, and yes that goes for all of us. So I will go to the source for myself, and that tells me one man/one woman. He made me, He should know what works.
And by the way, Joe Dallas is not anti-homosexual, he is ex-homosexual.
Relationships:
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth” (Genesis 1:27, 28).
“And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made” (Genesis 2:2).
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female” (Mark 10:6).
God’s work concerning a proper relationship is male and female. God gave His image a female, not a male. God ended His work. Jesus Christ did not come to create a new form of relationship intimacy, male to male, or to condone such activity.
maybe you can explain why its so difficult for heterosexual believers to go where homosexuals worship and fellowship in christ and fellowship with them, your brothers who share the same inheritance. and openly share your understandings of homosexuality trusting that in fellowship the holy spirit will show both together what needs to be seen. or dont share your understandings, but at least have a 1john1 witness of what spirit the worshippers serve.
i went to your joe dallas site. what i experienced was what i experience whenever i go to antihomsexual site where those who run the site make a living off their position sales.....sales .....sales and virtually no accessability to anyone who could speak for the site. however the leading feature of the site was dealing with sexual addiction.
is it your opinion that all heterosexuals are sexual addicts. if not, than why would you assume the same of all homosexuals. do you assume that heterosexual sex addicts are representative of how most heterosexuals deal with their sexuality. if not,why would you assume differently of homosexuals.
"your understanding of homosexuality is limited to only those who reached out to an exodus type of support group. consequently your awareness of homosexuals are about only those who were locked into a promiscuos, substance abuse, self destructive pattern of living."
How do you know what my experience is? You are assuming rather a lot, aren't you? And as a matter of fact you are wrong. The reason we read Joe Dallas in the first place was to try to understand, and that isn't the only place we went in our efforts. He just makes the most sense to us, and his sincerity is striking.
I'm not here to change your mind - that's between you and whomever you wish or don't wish to call yourself accountable to. But it would seem to me that it's a valid point to assume that someone undeniably heterosexual would have a limited understanding of the totality of the struggle. However, someone who has been there, done that on both sides would have a more complete understanding of the issues.
you say that because, rather than fellowship with your homosexual brothers in christ in a 1john1 witness, to see first hand the spirit of those who share our inheritance, your understanding of homosexuality is limited to only those who reached out to an exodus type of support group. consequently your awareness of homosexuals are about only those who were locked into a promiscuos, substance abuse, self destructive pattern of living.
would the result been ant different if the person had been heterosexual? i have never heard anyone participate in exodus type support environment, whose witness was that he had a committed shared life with another but felt it was destroying my life.
you do understand that according to the numbers there are 12 million in this country and 320million worldwide. are you assuming that this small group speaks for the hundreds of millions.
i remember when racism was at its peak. in that period the overwhelming attitude was that if you knew 20 blacks you knew the 20 million.
Go to joedallas.com. The arguments he used to use for his gay lifestyle trumped yours by a long shot. If you really think that God doesn't view homosexuality in ANY form as a major lifestyle problem, then maybe you owe it to yourself to look at someone whose been there, done that, on both sides.
are you saying that heterosexuals bond out of mutual lust. my understanding is that lust is about sex obsession and obsession of sexual pleasure. where there is lust there is no relationship., because commitment is only to lust
as i said before sins in the comission of same sex relations no more condemns homosexuality, than the lustful acts of adultry in 1samuel and the incestual rape of 2 samuel condemn heterosexuality.
the point is that sins of romans 1 bear no resemblance homosexuality. because the sins in romans are about relations, while homosexuality is about relationships.
i would agree that the sins in romans 1 were unseemly not because they involved same sex relations, but because they were commited out of a spirit of lust and not love. the fact that you persist on focusing on form rather substance means you are placing yourself under the law. t
hat is why the imperfection of the law. the law deals with outward acts while christ deals with the sin of heart, regardless of whether the acts are committed or not.
according to the law david did not sin until he had intercourse with bathsheba. according to christ he was sinning the moment he lusted after her in his heart
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1 Corintians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Charity does not behave itself unseemly. That would include men with men working that which is unseemly. Love has boundaries.
for those who keep throwing out 1cor 6. please read the whole scripture.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
doyou think they justified and sanctified because they altered their behavior and repented or because they were washed by the blood. do you seriuosly believe one relies on the other. if you do, are you not negating the crucifixion.
consider romans and ephesians
romans 10:
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
ephesians 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
acts of repentance are works. does this not say that receiving god's righteousness depends on faith not repentance. yes it is one thing to acknowlege sin in our lives, it is another to say this sin or that sin is needed to be repented. if we die to christ once and are resurrected to him once, how can repenting or not repenting of a specific sin negate that?
it smells of works to me
most of the sacrifices required in lev were for unknown sin. are we to credit ourselves with more awareness of our sins than the jews that came before us.
"thank you father that i am not like the jews who came before me, who didnt repent or were unaware of their sins. i know and repent of all my sins daily..
below my overview of romans1, verse by verse and its relationship to romans 2
ROMANS 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
HERE'S WHAT YOU DO........................ WE ALL DO...........THE ESSENCE OF ALL SIN.
(1) we are aware of god's invivible qualities thru what he created so we have no excuse to say we do not know of him.
(2) and allthough knowing him we do not give thanks in all things. nor glorify him. in fact the less that we do these, the more we credit ourselves with being our own savior.
(3)we are fools in our wisdom and exchange his glory in whom we arre created in his image, for images of our own mortality.
(4) because we are given over to these images we are also given over to all kinds of appetites of the desires of our hearts in our attempt to embrace the here and now.
(5)we exchange the truth of god for a lie and serve ourselves and our earthly wisdom........... even powers and principalities.
(6)we are given over from the natural love of self and brother, neighbor to the unnatural, lusts of every given thing. this provides for our unlimited sense of shame, our own self hatred and low self esteem.
(7)in this state of existence we no longer think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of god.and embrace the license to do every kind of wickedness and evil.
(8) and while doing this, knowing that to do this brings death, we continue to not only do them but also approve of those who do the very same things.
this is why you who judge do the very same things as those you judge.. this is why we all need a savior. THE MESSAGE OF ROMANS
at a diocesan episcopal convention, several years ago, an attempt was made to pass an ordanance. it was to be signed by all clergy vowing that they would obstain from all sex outside of marriage. it never passed because the clergy said in mass that they would refuse to sign it.
today it is my impression that sex outside of marriage is fast becoming understood as no longer being a sin. if anyone would test it 1thess5:21, i think they would easily concur.
as christians we serve of the spirit. to say that this act or that act is a sin unless it applies to conscious......................conscious.of loving your neighbor as yourself.(the summation of all the law), is putting ourselves under the law. why would we put ourselves under imperfectionwhen we can be under christ which is perfection. we live by his commandments of love and in so doing them we automatically obstain from the prohibitions of the law, of not doing this or that. and in living in the spirit of that love we do so much more than just follow the ordinance.
those who hold homosexuality being a sin have to place themselves and others under the law. because homosexuality does not come against loving ones neighbor as oneself. and that is the acid test of whether it of christ and not of christ.
homosexuals like heterosexuals bond out of mutual respect,love, attraction and trust for a shared committed life together. like heterosexuals part of the bonding process involves sexual intimacy. to respond with " the bible says" a gesture that is totally without love, and offers only guilt and attempts to put them under something the condemner, himself is no longer under if he is a christian.
One more thing...
Since the ordination was of a practicing lesbian, I'm assuming that when the congregation "welcomes people of all sexual orientations and gender identities," that they are currently ones who are still practicing their sins.
I may be wrong, the article did not say specifically. But if this is the case, the Bible clearly says:
"But now I am writing you that YOU MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A BROTHER BUT IS SEXUALLY IMMORAL or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. WITH SUCH A MAN DO NOT EVEN EAT." 1 Corinthians 5:11
Sport, no. The verse means that God simply allowed them to do the wicked, shameful homosexual acts that they wanted to do with each other. He had already warned them in the Law that it was wrong, but they didn't care. (Much like it is today.)
Unless they repent, they will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), or enter the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15). They will not have access to the Tree of Life (Revelation 22:14). In the end, they will reap destruction (Galatians 6:8), which will be the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
*****
Quote:
"This is who we are and this is what we do," said Kathy Young, a member of Resurrection Lutheran Church, as reported by The Chicago Tribune. The congregation welcomes people of all sexual orientations and gender identities, according to its website.
Biblical response:
"And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11
We are to leave our sins behind when we come to Jesus.
"Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry." Colossians 3:5
We are to put our sinful natures to death.
Our sinful ways are to be our PAST history, not our present reality. "Sinners" - that is what we WERE. But if we ARE Christians, we need to imitate Christ (Ephesians 5:1-2). Christ and the Father are one (John 10:30), and wrote the Law, including Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, which state:
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable ... If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
*****
Why are so many people shocked at this, anyway? We've known for some time that abominations like this were coming. When the ordination of celibate homosexuals is authorized in a 'church' (and I use that term VERY loosely), how long did you think it will be before one of them decided - like this one did - to refuse celibacy?
“Everything is permissible for me”–but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”–but I will not be mastered by anything. “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”–but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
So god turns people gay or lesbian when he's angry at them? Lesbianism isn't a sin itself, but a punishment for some other sin?
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Romans 1:26-27
sport...
Romans Chapter one
Does the bible say anything about lesbianism? I'm honestly curious.
This is just plain silly.
"Arsenokoites" is a compound word, made from the combination of "Arsen" (male) and "Koites" (sexual union - where we get the word 'coitus').
right and this is what I would sign with my name.
I would say that having sex with another man would be a feminine quality untypical of a man nor manly in appearance or manner
the greek word is "malakos" which means "soft" or a catamite (which is means a younger boy and and older male) and effeminate ( which means having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner)
and since Romans doesn't use the word "homosexual" .it talks about man going against what is the natural affections for a woman and having affections for another man. That, as Paul say, is a sin. Im not pro-gay either...but i am pro truth.
"Malakee" and "Arsenokoitai" these are the words used in the greek bible to describe the only verses in which the bible says somehing about homosexuality.
This is something I found on my latest research and in feact no one really knows what this means. Transferred in todays language we now reed about homosex, but in those days they only talked about sex with children as they did in Greece those days. Those people were not gay, they just used boys for theier satisfaction. In Germany only 5% of pederasts are gay.
Maybe this information revives the discussion. I´m not pro gay, but I´m pro truth.
The Word is simple... Don't add to it don't take away from it....Else, it becomes of non effect
Leviticus 18:22
“Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Leviticus 18:21-23 (in Context)
Leviticus 20:13
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
Leviticus 20:12-14 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 6:9
Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 6 (Whole Chapter)
1 Timothy 1:10
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching
1 Timothy 1:9-11 (in Context) 1 Timothy 1 (Whole Chapter)
Those who don't want to abide by the WORD, will lead others to do the same. Antichrists are what they are called according to what as "believers" understand them to be...
2 Timothy 4:3
For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.
yeah. sorry. busy busy. i dont have much going on tomorrow,so I'll try and reply. I really do want to chat with you more.
hey, i emailed you today, but haven't heard back from you. did you get it?
oh no, jc4me. i flagged it after I gave you my email addy so that no one else would have it.
Only the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness and filthy sin - this does include many other things, but as it pertains to this article - adultery, fornication, and yes, homosexuality. Too many in today's church want to cover up sin, and be politically relevent to today's "culture". They water-down the Wrod of God, and twist it to make it seem more "pleasant" to the ears. Many people want to hear what feesds their ego; they don;t want to hear the truth that transforms lives for their own good and for God's pleasure.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. None of us are without sin. The Good News is that Jesus Christ became God in the flesh for us! He decended from his exalted heavenly place, and willfully shed His Prescious Blood and gave up His life so that we may have a relationship with God the Father our Creator.
We need to first acknowledge that we are all sinners; we need to repent - that is to literally and willfully choose to turn away from our old life of living in sins; we need to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior of our lives (this means we hand over our free will to Him, and choose toi obey His commands and teachings). We must put our total trust and confidence ino Him, and then follow Him.
The question is, have we trully repented, and turned back from our sin. That is to say, if we're willfully, and rebelliously living in sin, have we made a conscious choice to turn from that sin, die to ourselves, pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ?
None of these sins are unpardonable, but God has given us a free choice. We must choose this day whom we will serve. Are we going to choose to gratify our flesh and live in sin, or are we going to die to ourselves, and choose to follow Christ Jesus?
Whoever doesn't truly know Christ on this site, please give your life to him. You will not regret it. He will never bring up your past. We all have pasts, but God can make you a new person, and as you continue to seek after Him and as you surrender your life to Him, He will continue to mold you and make you into the vessel of honor He wants you to be. I hope this touches someone out there, and may the Lord turn your heart to repentance. God Bless You.
Hey Prophet, i guess someone thinks that God's Word is inappropriate. They flagged your comment as inappropriate. I guess there are some people on this board that agree with the lesbian woman's priest ordenation. For one, she is a woman, and the Apostle Paul does not allow for women to teach over men(i,e priest/pastor, etc) Secondly, she is an unrepentant lesbian living the homosexual lifestyle with no apparent desire to leave her sin behind. Thirdly, I don't see how a major denomination that supposedly takes the Word of God to be God's inspired Word to men would even allow for this to be taking place.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
This is what happens when believers are more concerned with what the world thinks rather than what God requires.
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4
I'm really worried about the spiritual health of the Christian church around the world. Greed, lust, homosexuality, etc. are overwhelming her, specifically the clergy. What the church desperately needs now is an overall repentance, and wholeheartedly seeking for God's forgiveness.
hey Prophet, i noticed on another post that you email "The Watch". How can I go about getting an email address so I can communicate with you a little more about apologetics, end times, etc? ANd if one is not available, then don't worry dude; i can always post on the site and talk to you here. Happy Thanksgiving.
BTW, a couple of you (anniefourjesus, Pastor Leo) mentioned a good point; that no church is perfect and is only as good as their spiritual leaders and those who worship, there. I actually think I may have been mistakenly searching for a church (if not one of the whole Christian denominations) based on exactly the opposite premise. I'll keep this advice in mind when visiting local churches with my family. And I'll be sure to "tactfully" speak to the pastors :)
Oh yeah ... anniefourjesus, I'm actually in the Newport, RI area. Just a stones throw (by someone really REALLY strong) from Boston. I actually grew up, for the most part, in Brockton, MA.
muggle
You go! yah! And I thinkg i mention this to you before, but I sometimes tend to get a little terse with people. We are all here to make each other accountable. I have been called out a few times myself...and will most likely be again. But that's what the Body of Christ is about.
I am so excited to hear what God is doing in your life. It rejuvinates me. it reminds me that God still moves and answers prayers. So thank you for sharing it. It is a blessing.
I have a LOT to be thankful for this Holiday. My prayers for knowledge and answers are at the top of my list, nearly every day, and through all of you who responded to me, God has been answering those prayers. :^) I guess He's also been answering my prayers that He softens my heart and opens my ears to hear and absorb the Truth.
When I sit down for Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow, and thank Him out loud for all His blessings, the path that He is laying out is first, and courage & wisdom to follow it are the second. Thanks for all of you and others who are helping me are implicit in that Grace, because you are the ones I've been meeting along the path.
I'd normally be looking for something clever to say, but I just feel such peace right now ... Man! does it sound to anyone else like I'm making an acceptance speech? "I'd like to thank the director, the sound crew, and that guy who brings the donuts. Thanks, Dave! What's that? It's Bill? Oh. Thanks, Bill!" ... THERE it is :^)
Anyway, I'll be praying for God's blessings on all of you, and that He widens that path, so others might follow. Unbelievers, borderliners, those currently searching ... OPEN INVITATION! And I'm sure I'm speaking for other's reading this. There are a lot of people here who walk in the Spirit.
BTW, everyone who has been guiding me, and those of you who have cautioned me on some of my more colorful rants ... feel free to continue giving me the ol' proverbial slap in the back of the head, when I start grammatically pummeling someone :^) Happy Thanksgiving, and God bless.
Church laws and rules are a guide, and not as inspired as thought.
We have a family situation, and some who want power will step on everyone to get their way, so love them and leave em.
Good source on pod casts is kcm.org, it is free and on the blessing or return to the garden currently, may God comfort you, amen
During this time and age it makes me sad to see the rifts between the churches. I will state for the record that I believe homosexuality is a sin. I agree with the one poster who stated that Jesus welcomes homosexuals and the rest of us (sinners). However, He does say to the prostitutes go and sin no more. That my dear family is clear.
The difficulty I see with the church is ordaining those who have been shown to currently and actively with full knowledge participate in the acts of sin. I guess you could say premeditated sin. I always believed that not just anyone can be an ordained pastor but to be ordained one must be of upstanding character and belief in the Word.
I guess an example would be for me to be a seller of cars. I want to be a seller but instead I want to sell bicycles. i try and get into all these organizations that sell cars but for some odd reason they won't allow me to sell bicycles. I then proceed to scream but aren't we all sellers? i have the voice to sell, I have to the motivation to sell. But we seem to be missing the point. We sell cars. Not bicycles... The sellers of cars will welcome this person who wants to sell bicycles but in order to be successful in selling cars you got to lose the bicycle pitch...
Muggleborn, I also struggled to find a church; then I prayed and asked the Lord to guide me to a place of believers, who truly seek Him and obey His Word. No one is perfect; and no church is; humans are there; but where there is humility before God and a transparency in all who Worship the Lord there.
The Lord heard my prayer and answered it and led me to a loving, caring, transparent, correctly dividing the Word of God church. Our own pastor urges us to confess our faults and reminds us that The Holy Spirit's job is to convict; and we urge each other to be accountable and responsible for our own sin and to take that to God, so we can be cleansed by HIS blood that was shed for us on Calvary.
It is refreshing to be with believers' who are not "holier than thou" but seek to be obedient before God!
God's richest blessings to you and your family!
Hi Muggleborn, I hear you on the disheartening part. I was in prayer this morning and I asked the Lord to really help His people to come together, to be praying for one another in these dark days. I look around at this world and how far we have fallen, and in our own nation as well; and I give thanks to GOD that He led me to His Son!
Let me encourage you Muggleborn; just keep your eyes on Jesus Christ, He loves you brother and so does the family of God!
We need to stand in unity of the faith and in these end times, many are falling away as God foretold us, scoffers are rising up and the love of many waxes cold.
The Holy Spirit is on the move in many areas, my own included (I'm in Boston, MA) and repentance, obedience and unity are the keys for our times!
The Holy Spirit is our Comforter, our Refuge, our Defender in these times; ask the Lord to guide you into a clearer understanding of what GOD is doing in this time!
The times and events are in The Father's hands, and HE is faithful and HE is trustworthy.
We have the Hope of Jesus Christ, so even as we see these events unfolding; we do not faint, or grow weary, HE renews us by The power of The Holy Spirit!
Be encouraged, be strong in the Lord, and PRAY unceasingly for our LORD to intervene in these dark times; for HE is the LIGHT and as His coming draws nearer, you will see ever increasing darkness! But praise the LORD for when HE splits the eastern skies, THe KING will reign!
Thank you Lord God! For His glory and our good!
Remember, when folks add or take away from Holy Scripture they do it to their own destruction, not that we pray that for them, we pray that they will repent.
Jesus did welcome sinners; but He told them, "go and sin no more." You can't be actively sinning and say Jesus is okay with that! HE died for that! That makes His sacrifice a mockery!
Praise God for His unfailing love that even now His hands are outstretched to receive sinners
Repent of your own sin, for THE DAY approaches! In His service, Annie
What did the Evangelistic Lutheran Church of “Satan” expect? First they turn from God and openly accept homosexuality. Secondly, a proclaimed lesbian challenges them by disregarding their own rules for celibacy and they immediate fold. If you do what Satan wants are you not his followers?
Maybe the Bible’s even verses are true and odd verses are lies. If so, then homosexuality is in the odd verses and adultery and divorce are in the even verses. Now it makes sense for homosexuality to be accepted today - NOT! Is God bipolar? Does His word ever change on any given day? These Satanic churches must think so.
Christianity is ALWAYS based on this one principle: CAN YOU FIND IT IN THE BIBLE? Can you find homosexuality being accepted by God in the Bible? NO, maybe I must be mistaken because these demonic churches are declaring that it is scriptural. Can anyone interpret the scriptures anyway they choose and still be within the will of God? NO!
If it is not in the Bible it is not in the will of God! (I know that there are many things not written in the Bible, including but not limited to, what type of diapers you should put on your babies. I had to add this because of the barrage of nonsense that people use to attack the Bible scriptures by saying, Jesus did not say anything about this or that.) I’m talking about the things that Jesus taught and/or the Holy Spirit inspired people to write.
Christians can disagree on whether or not women can be ministers. There was even disagreement over whether Blacks could be ministers, but with the “revelation” (it was always there) of God using men like Joshua and Gideon (from the two Black Tribes of Israel) to lead His people, I guess that resolved that issue.
I’m talking about disagreement over issues of SIN. These are no-brainers and clearly spoken of in both the Old and New Testaments. Homosexuality is unquestionably a SIN, to the point of being assigned, by God, as an ABOMINATION in His sight. Homosexuality is such an ABOMINATION to God that He destroyed the cities of Canaan, including Sodom and Gommorrah, killing all of the people and everything that grew on the ground (Genesis 19:24-25).
“as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” Jude 9.
There are no perfect Christian Churches because they are filled with imperfect people. However, Christians endeavor to obey the scriptures that have been written down, and not continue in the sins that brought them to the Lord to begin with.
Please, continue to pray for all of those who are falling away in these End Times.
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
Me too, mugs. :-) James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. " You have asked God for wisdom and as you pursue Him, He will begin to show you things, and you will understand. Those are the kind of prayers He loves to answer...when we say "God, show me your truth. Show me how to love. Show me how to live a life that is pleasing to you." He will honor your prayer, muggle. And you have the prayers of those who care about you.
Muggleborn -
As will I.
MuggleBorn,
I will pray for you also.
Muggleborn, we will pray for you. In the meanwhile, google : The Word for Today radio program, and listen to some of the podcasts. They'll give you solid Bible teaching from Pastor Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. In addition, you can google the Calvary Satellite Network and look up the radio show called PAstor's Perspective. You may have a Christian Radio Station close to you where you can call th show and ask them questions. They will try to answer your questions directly from the Word of God, as close to the context intended as possible.
With regard to this lesbian minister, they are not only ordaining a woman to be over men in the teaching of a congreagation which the Apostle Paul clearly teaches is not the way God intended for teaching, and furthermore, she is a homosexual, which is condemned in the Bible as a sin just like adultery and fornication, bestiality and other sexual immorality is. This liberal congreagation is a digrace, and should not be called part of the Body of Christ, because they are in clear open disobedience to the Word's teachings on these matters.
Peace be to you. I too hope the Holy Spirit will guide you in all Truth. But, remember, stay in the Word.
I will MuggleBorn! Be encouraged, you are seeking the truth, and I think that is important to God! Seek the Holy Spirit and He will guide you in your ways! May God bless you and your family!
Who would go to this church? A "teacher" of the gospel who is no more than a dirty sinner who will not repent. What religion is this church? It is not certainly not Christian--at least not in deeds.
I'm currently still a member of the Roman Catholic Church, and for the past couple of years, I've been questioning their doctrines, and opposing arguments are always stronger on the Reformer side. But whenever I'm actually considering looking for another church, articles like this seem to pop up and tell me that there are less of God's servants out there to help me ... it's like another door being slammed in my face.
I know this is exactly how the devil wants me to feel, but it's disheartening, nonetheless.
I pray every day that the Holy Spirit will show me some clear path to follow. Would the rest of you also pray for me that I make the right decisions for myself and my family?
"26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."(Hebrews 10: 26-31 NKJ)
Take heed and turn away from apostacy. For the sake of not offending the world do some trample on their Creator.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
The more I read on this subject, the more alarmed I become at the backward state of our nation. The book of Hosea clearly delineates the process that we are following. As a nation, we are trying to put God as far away from ourselves as possible. Witness the undying attempts to divorce God from our government and ultimately our public lives. Please pray for our national and ecclesiastical leaders that we might reverse this trend!
The gay community has been successful in changing America’s(The World’s) view on homosexuality, so now they feel they can change the church. Just in case they didn’t know, Everything but The Word of God is going down.
Matthew 24:35
35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth:
but The Word of our God shall stand for ever.
There is no so thing as a homosexual/lesbian bishop, pastor, or leader, in The Kingdom of God. We should really pity homosexuals/lesbians who think they can change God’s Word.
Check the record(The Bible), God always wins.
Let’s pray for them.
We have to pray for our protestant brothers and sisters. There are some strange changes taking place with regards to their churches. Hopefully, one day they will see the light and return.
It goes to show you...when you give the devil an inch he becomes the RULER.
THE UGLY TRUTH OF HOMSEXUALITY
http://traditionalvalues.org/urban/eleven.php
I am comforted and heartened by what most of you write, and especially by the Scripture quotations. Let us pray for (false) Pastor Dude that God will open her eyes. If I understand Romans 1:18f correctly, those people who openly reject God's plain revelation in nature and Scripture, who openly serve their own man-made idols (e.g. the idea that the Bible is not God's Word but merely a fallible rendition of it), are given over to unnatural passions by God. Then Paul uses homosexual behaviour as a salient example to illustrate this awful fact. And then Paul goes on to a sinlist as further example of those who swapped God's Word for their own idolatrous ideas. All the time he is thinking about the debauched life of men and women in the city of Corinth and elsewhere. I shudder when I think how blind and depraved 'Christian' people get today when they choose and persist on the same path of wickedness. May God have mercy on our souls and save us from his terrible, coming judgment!
Zenodaddy, that's spot-on... its that simple and plain... Its a horrifying situation we have come to live with...
WHAAAA? I CAN'T believe what I just read!!
JUST for argument's sake, I thought abstinence was a REQUIREMENT and MANDATE for ALL Christians who are not joined together in a one man, one woman marriage - NOT even to mention about so-called "leaders" and "clergy" here.
I hang my head in shame for even living near the city that this occurred.... :(
BUT I keep fighting the good fight of TRUE faith in our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ and the TOTAL infalliability and purity of His Word!
RIght on, zenodaddy!!
Im working on my ordination...and i understand fully what they expect. if i don't agree with them, then I wont be pursuing my ordination....its that simple. if you can't abide by the rules....dont play the game
makes me wonder if she got ordained because God told her to, or so that she could get on the inside and really screw with things....
I swear ,...I PLEDGE TO YOU all Especially Joe12234 I will march straight into my grave (Heaven forbid) for some of the stuff I read on the points your trying to get across......THANKS.........
Matt 15:14
14....They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
NKJV
Right on the mark, zenodaddy!
Not surprising at all. You give them an inch and they take a mile.
'For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural ,27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Romans 1:26-27 (NASB)'
Sums it up pretty well I think.
Revelation 2:
18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): 25Only hold on to what you have until I come. 26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery'[b]— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.