Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Church|Mon, Nov. 19 2007 02:02 PM EST

Lesbian Ordained in Lutheran Church, Refuses Celibacy Vow

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

A lesbian became the first homosexual minister to be ordained since the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America gave leeway to churches in disciplining pastors who violate a celibacy vow requirement.

Jen Rude, 27, was ordained on Saturday at Resurrection Lutheran Church in Chicago despite her refusal to take a vow of celibacy. She was installed on Sunday.

Under church policy, homosexual – and not heterosexual – ministers are required to make a vow of celibacy before they can be ordained. Although not currently in a relationship, Rude called the policy discriminatory.

Rude is the first homosexual pastor to test a resolution that urges ELCA bishops to refrain from disciplining pastors who are in "faithful committed same-gender relationships." The resolution was passed at a national assembly in August when members also rejected measures that would have allowed the ordination of non-celibate homosexual clergy.

More than 100 congregants witnessed Rude’s ordination and showed support for the lesbian pastor, whose father and grandfather are both Lutheran ministers.

"This is who we are and this is what we do," said Kathy Young, a member of Resurrection Lutheran Church, as reported by The Chicago Tribune. The congregation welcomes people of all sexual orientations and gender identities, according to its website.

"It's meaningful to me in the sense that my call is being affirmed not only by God but the people of God," Rude said.

Chicago bishop Wayne Miller did not try to block Rude's ordination but also did not attend the weekend ceremony. He met with the congregation last month to inform of the potential consequences of the ordination, such as expulsion, should the denomination choose to enforce the policy in the future, according to The Chicago Tribune.

"This does not imply any bitterness or any hostility. It's simply where we are right now," Miller told the local Tribune. "My goal is to keep people in the conversation, and I do not see this as an issue that should be dividing the church. I think it's one of the many places where difference of opinion can make the church stronger and healthier, as long as people stay at the table and keep talking."

Miller said he believes the celibacy policy should be lifted but also believes bishops should follow the church rule.

Despite the ordination, Rude's name will not be listed on the official rolls of ELCA clergy.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is the largest Lutheran denomination, claiming 4.8 million members across the country.

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  • Sat May 30, 2009 2:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Oh, and I flagged myself because I mixed up my posts!"

    Shame on you.

  • Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Feet: you probably haven't seen me on this post, but many here know who I am. We will pray for you. In the meanwhile, google : The Word for Today radio program, and listen to some of the podcasts. They'll give you solid Bible teaching from Pastor Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. In addition, you can google the Calvary Satellite Network and look up the radio show called PAstor's Perspective. You may have a Christian Radio Station close to you where you can call th show and ask them questions. They will try to answer your questions directly from the Word of God, as close to the context intended as possible.

    With regard to this lesbian minister, they are not only ordaining a woman to be over men in the teaching of a congreagation which the Apostle Paul clearly teaches is not the way God intended for teaching, and furthermore, she is a homosexual, which is condemned in the Bible as a sin just like adultery and fornication, bestiality and other sexual immorality is. This liberal congregation is a digrace, and should not be called part of the Body of Christ, because they are in clear open disobedience to the Word's teachings on these matters.

    Peace be to you. I too hope the Holy Spirit will guide you in all Truth. But, remember, stay in the Word

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Feetxxxl:

    Have a good weekend.

  • GMG »
    Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    No, my brain just wasn't connecting all the dots on the one I flagged. Howsomever, if Tom can get flagged then I suppose anyone can get flagged, someone around here has developed quite a trigger finger!!!

  • Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    GMG...
    Can you stop doing that. You're freaking me out. I know your not as rude and obnoxious as me, but when i see you getting flagged it makes me wonder if i've been a bad influence on you. LOL.

  • GMG »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh, and I flagged myself because I mixed up my posts! :(

  • GMG »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "as far as "one flesh" im not completely clear about its total meaning . my only understanding is that for anything to embrace and be of god it has to embrace and be of agapi love.............................1john4 "god is love." "

    The Greek and Hebrew have different words for different kinds of love, for instance, there is love between sister/brother, mother/daughter, husband/wife, etc., and of course we know that we don't love everyone in our lives with the same kind of love. Well, agape love is the general, all encompassing, God- commands- us- to- love- each- other kind of love. That is not the same word as is used for the husband/wife kind of love, the "two shall become one" kind of love. So "love your neighbor", being agape love, does not denote the same kind of love as a husband/wife would have for each other. The husband and wife are to have a bonding of the spirit, soul and body, hence "two shall become one". This is totally different from agape.

    There are two other issues addressed in our previous posts that you still haven't answered, I would still like to know your understanding of the ideas I presented there.

  • GMG »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl -- "im not sure what you are saying women were denied rightsfrom the onset of time............check out wikipedia womens rights. point is for society to embrace these levels of social conscious they have to evolve to certain level of awareness. the turn of the century man(1900) would have been unable to understand ethnic equality"

    No, they weren't, they were guaranteed protection from the beginning of time, that was the plan. You understand the concept of authority, any company without a direct line of authority would go down the tubes in a flash due to no one having the ultimate decision making capability, and I might add, the responsibility for those decisions and their outcomes rests on the shoulders of the one carrying that authority. Well, God set up the chain of authority, and if man would follow God (the first authority) in His instructions, the woman would be the most loved, cherished, and enabled person on the face of the earth. We now have the capability of expanding our abilities outside the area of survival, our world is a much easier place now when it comes to the area of providing for our basic needs. Subjugation of women is the outcome of the sin in the Garden, not God's will. Remember, God provided a helpmate, not a doormat. You're not much of a helpmate if your God-given abilities are not treasured and utilized for the "two halves make a whole".

  • Tom »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Feet--nope I can't remember but I do know that i belonged to the he-man woman haters club when I was quite young. Now look at me married for 21 years 4 kids and a dog. let me ask you do you remember learning to walk or talk or being taught how to use the potty as oppose to diapers or anything before the your 3 or 4 years. Most of us don't remember them years and according to those who study this stuff, this is when our personalities are formed. Interesting I thought.
    Gods Blessing on ya
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet...
    "my only understanding is that for anything to embrace and be of god it has to embrace and be of agapi love.............................1john4 "god is love."

    That is true...and it's that love that brought Jesus to this earth to die on the cross so that homosexuals, murderers, liars, coveters, etc, etc, could have a chance to be forgiven and come out of that lifestyle and live a life of overcoming, victory, and healing.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    im not sure what you are saying women were denied rightsfrom the onset of time............check out wikipedia womens rights. point is for society to embrace these levels of social conscious they have to evolve to certain level of awareness. the turn of the century man(1900) would have been unable to understand ethnic equality.

    as far as "one flesh" im not completely clear about its total meaning . my only understanding is that for anything to embrace and be of god it has to embrace and be of agapi love.............................1john4 "god is love."

  • GMG »
    Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl - "gmg i misspoke when i said they were property..........................although their rights were subserviant to the husband, the control over the wife was very similar to what exists today in taliban communities, as far the husband dictating what a wife can do or not do."

    In the OT times life was very primitive, which is very hard for us to comprehend. God endowed humans with the proclivities necessary to do the jobs he set for us to do. Men he made protectors, providers, etc. and gave them what they needed to do the job, women were childbearers, caretakers, etc. with what they needed for that. If a husband died, his brother was to marry the widow or she could not survive. God's provision for authority was God - prophets - priests - man - woman. He set it all up based on a logical sequence and gave to each what was needed for the job.

    NT times were somewhat more "modern", but still Jesus listed the line of authority as Jesus - man - woman. You will remember that we are told "husbands, love your wife as Jesus loves the church, and gave His life for it". That is a tall order, and calls for a large love.

    God made Adam a "helpmate", not a doormat. In NT times there were many women who had important significant roles, and Paul, who is said to be against women's rights, praised these women for their work. Even in OT times, there were many women used mightily of God, Esther is one great example. The problem is humankind, and it began in the Garden.

    God made man and woman to be joined together to become one. Man is one half, woman the other, both different according to God's design, two distinct halves that together make a whole. This was His plan.

    My last post addressed each of your issues from your post, I would appreciate hearing from you on these other issues.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tom
    when was that period in your life when you were equally attracted to both men and women, and chose a heterosexual life.

  • Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gmg i misspoke when i said they were property..........................although their rights were subserviant to the husband, the control over the wife was very similar to what exists today in taliban communities, as far the husband dictating what a wife can do or not do.

    below was is description of rights of women in 1848,. after the first convwention for womens rights it was 72 years before they were given the right to vote. the understanding of scripture played a pivotal role in society's willingmess to grant those rights.

    Married women were legally dead in the eyes of the law
    Women were not allowed to vote
    Women had to submit to laws when they had no voice in their formation
    Married women had no property rights
    Husbands had legal power over and responsibility for their wives to the extent that they could imprison or beat them with impunity
    Divorce and child custody laws favored men, giving no rights to women
    Women had to pay property taxes although they had no representation in the levying of these taxes
    Most occupations were closed to women and when women did work they were paid only a fraction of what men earned
    Women were not allowed to enter professions such as medicine or law
    Women had no means to gain an education since no college or university would accept women students
    With only a few exceptions, women were not allowed to participate in the affairs of the church

  • Tom »
    Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet please understand I think in this country everybody should be able to live under the current laws and without special privileges. I agree even to those in the gay community, however Homosexuality is a matter of choice and they should not have any more special rights or protection then anybody else and these laws should be enforced. This also means that they should be willing to accept criticisim for there actions just like everybody else. They are no different then anybody else, except when it comes to Christians and Christianity and then the really only difference is we are have repented accepted Christ as Savior and have been forgiven set free from the bondage of sin. Gods Blessing on you and yours
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    how eloquent. how moving...like a hallmark channel Christmas movie. let me get a tissue.
    but as moving and heart wrenching as that was, it still can't cover sin. because the same thing could be said about abortion too...or do you condone that as well? never mind...i dont want to know.
    But you would make a great politician. "I did not have sex with that woman" "Define sex. is doing it orally considered sex since there was no penetration?" Walk the line, see how close you can come to hell and still keep your wings...mm mm.
    Twist all you want...God's judgement is true and eternal.
    God loves the homosexual...that's why He sent His son to die on the cross for their sin, and to draw them out of that lifestyle...

  • GMG »
    Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl - there is a difference between life being hard and difficult, and having to process those same difficulties carrying a heavy burden"

    Ok, maybe you need to explain what you mean by this. The apostles were stoned, reviled, imprisoned, hungry, tired, sore, misunderstand, hated, all this I'm sure made them desperately lonely, I assume they were healthy males so they were probably self-imposed eunochs, their original plans and dreams for their lives were left behind for the sake of Jesus. These are not serious burdens? Paul beseeched the Lord to remove the "thorn in his flesh", and was told "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness". 2Cor 12:9. Not to mention Jesus, who carried the burden of all humanity before being tortured and then crucified. Now, explain to me just how your burden is more significant, because I just don't see it.

    "are you saying that "one flesh " is not agape.......................in truth isnt agape what "one flesh" describes, accomplished thru the grace of the spirit."

    Most definitely "one flesh" is not agape. Where did you get the idea that it was?

    "my understanding about genesis is although the woman was mere property, in marriage she was to be much more to the man................... the property owner."

    God called Eve "helpmate" for Adam, so where do you get the idea of her being property, and property owner after marriage? I've never heard an idea like this. Please tell me how you came to such an understanding.

    "of course god would give adam, a female helpmate, procreation was critical to man's survival. its taken 4000 years before man had the capacity to even understand the essence of homosexuality. it took the same to understand ethnic and gender equality. homosexuality was as foreign to the understanding of that time as flying to the moon. "

    If you really believe this, then you really do believe that God (Holy Spirit) is indeed fallible, because again, if He is not an all-knowing God then you are right, He would not have known of man's capability of arriving at this new insight. That would mean that He was fallible, therefore he is not god.

    Once again I ask you, is your god fallible?

  • Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    did you know that for the first time in this country homosexuals have been given the oppurtunity to live normal lives.


    prior to today homosexuals were rejected by society(including the church), abandoned by friends and family, told by believers that they were damned to hell, if they succcombed to any of their feelings(reaching out to be with someone of the same gender and in the process having intimate relations) and subject to possible incarceration, assault and even murder. the highest suicide group were gay teens. their percentages were three times higher than any other group.

    and the thing that changed this whole situation wasnt compassion from the church for those persecuted. what changed the situation was that homosexuality was deemed legal.

    by no longer being illegal , they were equal with heterosexuals before the law and for the first time had the possibility of having a normal life.

    and the scourge of aids that caused the death of many homosexuals, actually was the instrument of their liberation, because it forced them to have to come out of the closet to seek help to deal with the disease, and it forced heterosexuals to witness the premature deaths and have their own 1john1 witness with those that suffered. the witnessing and resulting relationships that were forged with heterosexuals formed the basis of the support group that eventually grew so large as to enable the court decision.

    what also contributed to court decision was the sexual revolution in the sixties that changed our understanding of our sexuality, the religious revolution of the seventies that gave people the ability to look at their own faith from an independent point of view. and the recent social revolution that has afforded society the ability to honor individual opinion.

    the court decison, the support, the empathy, even homosexual activism could never have happened in the fifties. and in case you are too young to know the fifties, it was a time when religion was looked upon in many circles as merely as a societal invention..................................it was the dog eat dog decade.........and religion was confined to sundays, their was no such thing as indiviual opinion.( one held the ideas of the group they associated with)and sex was an discussable subject.

  • Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "its taken 4000 years before man had the capacity to even understand the essence of homosexuality. it took the same to understand ethnic and gender equality. homosexuality was as foreign to the understanding of that time as flying to the moon."
    Are you sure? Did you live back then? You have any idea what people thought about or practiced sexually? I didnt think so.

  • Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "procreation was critical to man's survival." Tell that to God. Afterall, he did create Adam and Eve. And probably multitudes more. Genesis 4:15 says "But the LORD said to him, "Not so ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him." Anyone who? There was just Adam, Eve and Cain. (Abel had been murdered)
    and you also said "my understanding about genesis is although the woman was mere property, in marriage she was to be much more to the man................... the property owner." I see how that is reflected in this "Jesus" you claim to follow where He quotes the same verse found in Genesis. And also in the epistles where husbands are commanded to LOVE their life partner (whoops...i meant to say "wife"...my bad). So far, proof of what the Bible DOES say far outweighs what it "DOESN'T" say.

  • Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "There is nothing in the Bible that promises us easy. Your quote on "my yoke is easy" was about His gentleness and His peace, not about our battle. He makes it clear that life WILL BE tough. 11 of His apostles died pretty horrific martyr's deaths for His sake, I don't believe they thought there was anything easy about that."


    there is a difference between life being hard and difficult, and having to process those same difficulties carrying a heavy burden



    "Love your neighbor....this commandment uses the work agape for love I believe. This is a word describing a general encompassing love, the love Jesus calls us to have towards humankind."



    are you saying that "one flesh " is not agape.......................in truth isnt agape what "one flesh" describes, accomplished thru the grace of the spirit.




    Feet, you can't generalize the Bible because you feel there should be some exception for something you "feel" is better than something else. Jesus' words to us do not involve feelings, they involve His perfect will. His apostles were charged with going out and spreading this news. And they have written down for us God's inspired word. Either that is true, or God is just a god.

    everything i have written i have annotated with scripture. and there has yet to be given an explanation as to how the words of the verses declare homosexuality is a sin. annotation is important. a number of comments i originally wrote i had to erase because when reread the scripture i was referring to, i realized my words were not what the scripture said.



    my understanding about genesis is although the woman was mere property, in marriage she was to be much more to the man................... the property owner.



    my understanding is that the book of lev was written 300 years before christ.



    i didnt say quote the verses................ i know the verses. i asked to explain how the words of those verses say homosexuality is a sin.

    all that is necessary is for someone to explain to me how the words explain to them that homosexuality is a sin







    of course god would give adam, a female helpmate, procreation was critical to man's survival. its taken 4000 years before man had the capacity to even understand the essence of homosexuality. it took the same to understand ethnic and gender equality. homosexuality was as foreign to the understanding of that time as flying to the moon.

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    for this reason will a MAN leave his mother and father and cling to his WIFE.
    There is no "what the Bible DOESN'T say". And to say that the Holy Spirit says something contrary to the Word of God is, at its best, moronic. The Holy Spirit told you that gay marriages was okay? Funny...the Holy Spirit told me that a man is to be married only to a woman.

    And be very careful about attributing sin to the Holy Spirit...that is a sin that will not be forgiven.

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet:
    so what you're saying is that incestuous relationships arent a sin.

  • GMG »
    Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    A fellowship, of any kind, does not change God's plans. There are many people who are involved in many things that they consider good, but that doesn't mean it is of God. It also doesn't automatically mean it's not. For a child of God the first criteria is always, is God first in our consideration, and what is His Word in this area. We seek His way first, our way last or never.

    There is nothing in the Bible that promises us easy. Your quote on "my yoke is easy" was about His gentleness and His peace, not about our battle. He makes it clear that life WILL BE tough. 11 of His apostles died pretty horrific martyr's deaths for His sake, I don't believe they thought there was anything easy about that.

    Love your neighbor....this commandment uses the work agape for love I believe. This is a word describing a general encompassing love, the love Jesus calls us to have towards humankind.

    Feet, you can't generalize the Bible because you feel there should be some exception for something you "feel" is better than something else. Jesus' words to us do not involve feelings, they involve His perfect will. His apostles were charged with going out and spreading this news. And they have written down for us God's inspired word. Either that is true, or God is just a god.

    So I ask you again, is your god fallible?

  • GMG »
    Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl - through reading your posts, I'm not sure any explanation I give will clarify for you what I'm trying to say, and will annotations really help? I use the NKJ translation, will you question the education, understanding, etc. etc. of the commentators? I don't know, but I will try to clarify.

    I went back to Genesis and "We created...", We being the triune God. That means the Holy Spirit was in on the creation of man and woman and covenant joining. This is God's plan, therefore the Holy Spirit's plan also. If the Holy Spirit is now telling you that the plan has changed, it's now the 21st century, and the joining is now expanded to _____ and _____ (fill in the blanks), then God (Holy Spirit) has changed His plan. He is therefore a changling God. A changling God is fallible, not perfectly all knowing (if He couldn't foresee a committed man/man relationship and include it in the original plan, then He's not all knowing, right?).

    From the creation of man, and woman from and for man, the Holy Spirit said "it is good". That's not the Law, the Law was not in effect at that time. It is purposeful creation.

    God did not include anything in the NT about marijuana, incest, heroin, speed limits, or any number of things, but He did include much instruction on how to live that tells us His intent in these areas.

    His original creation was a man, a woman, a covenant relationship together. This is so very clear. He has not added any amendments to change that.

  • Tom »
    Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Scripture aftef scripture feet you know which ones. We have tried to explain it to you. We have quoted verses, broke down the meaning of the words in Greek for ya. Had people far more knowledgeable then you or I try to explain it to ya but you just refused to hear Gods word in the plain language as He intended. Let me ask something sir--If God is all seeing, if God is all knowing, If God is everywhere then don't you think He would of foresaw this debate and had the writers of the Bible change it as they were writing it. I think He would have but you see He didn't becasue it means what it says feet homosexaulity is no different then other sex related sins or for any other sin fo that matter. They are all sin and sin can cause us to be seperated from God for ever. If we don't repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and sin no more. Gods Blessing on you feet. Wilderness and Jester keep on preaching it and I hope God Bless your socks off,
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

    Adam did not awaken to see a man, he awoke to see that which is good, a woman. When Adam sinned, he caused all of humanity to be born into the sleep of sin and death. A homosexual is sleeping in unrighteousness.

    “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

    “Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Eph 5:14).

    “And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light” (Romans 13:11, 12).

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    what doesnt exist is an annotation that says, that if a same sex couple bonds in the same spirit for the same purpose, it is against god.



    instead in the gospels jesus says you will recognize what is of god by its fruits, if it exudes the fruit of spirit.................it is of god



    matt7:16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?


    matt7:20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    matt12:33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.




    what does not exist is any scripture that says in christ anything not mentioned or spoken of in the law, is against god.





    additionally scripture says the reverse. in the gospels jesus says there is MUCH(a whole lot more) MORE he has to tell us, that at moment such things spoken, we could not bear. so he will wait until the right time, and then he will tell us.





    john16: 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet:
    what in the world is the four percent rule?
    And show me in the Bible where it says that incest is wrong. It doesnt. so it must be okay.
    (im being sarcastic, by the way)
    Can anyone tell me what Ephesians 5:31, Matthew 19:5, and Genesis 2:24 say?

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tom



    that's it, isnt it . the words arent there.



    the explanation offered had additional things put either between the words or added to them. additions that could not be credibly back up with any scriptural annotations.



    also there is no explanation of how homosexuality comes against loving your neighbor as yourself, the summation of the law.



    that is one of the reasons why i suggested a 1john1 witness fellowship in christ................ that in this, one might find some credible evidence.

  • Tom »
    Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:16 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    feet over and over people have shown through the Bible that it is a sin and it is unrighteous and it is against Gods precepts. If you refuse to see the truth then we can't help ya. We are praying for you tho, but you must be willing to submit to His authority and His understanding not your own. As has been said over and over. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Gods Blessing on your journey.
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    tom and mik770

    please show me the verses and explain how the words in those verses say homosexuality is a sin.

    homosexuality being the the human bonding of two persons of the same sex out of mutual love, attraction, respect, and trust for a shared committed life together.

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The bottom line is the Biblle say in bothe the Old and the New Testament that homosexuaity is a sin. If you live that lifestyle you have no right being in any church leadership. Romans 1: 21-32

  • Tom »
    Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:38 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    it is interesting that 1st John says ALL unrighteousness is sin,,, and we all know that the Bible says homosexaulity is unrighteousness so it is a sin. It is unnatural and contary to Gods commandments. feet I think is just trying to give people a license to sin. Gods blessing
    In Christ
    Tom

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "None of us have divinity, nor were we priviledged to sit at the feet of divinity. Neither our word nor our fellowship, no matter how large a group in agreement, has the authority to speak with divine-given knowledge in Jesus' stead. If the Holy Spirit can institute amendments to God's Word through the centuries, then He is not divine; God then becomes a changeling, and we then no longer have a divine, perfect God. If the Creator cannot lay out a perfect plan for His creation from the beginning, then He is not all knowing, He is simply fallible. Is this the god you believe in? "

    gmg
    could clarify what you are saying along with annotation. im really not clear on what you are attempting to say. thank you.

  • Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jester_in_the_Kings_court

    according to the four percent rule there are 12 milllion in this country 320, million worldwide. what percentage would you say have been transformed. what are the numbers?

    apart from that would you not that you are attempting to put a heavy burden on someone for the sake of a point of the law..................in essence you are attempting to put them under the law. the law , something that even by following we receive neither god's righteousness or our salvation.

    knowing that would you still say that such a position is an example of christ's love

  • GMG »
    Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feetxxxl - 1John 1:1 is a testimony of John to the divinity of Jesus. It has nothing to do with anyone elses testimony about anyone or anything else. John was giving this testimony in order to show what authority he had to speak in Jesus's stead.

    None of us have divinity, nor were we priviledged to sit at the feet of divinity. Neither our word nor our fellowship, no matter how large a group in agreement, has the authority to speak with divine-given knowledge in Jesus' stead. If the Holy Spirit can institute amendments to God's Word through the centuries, then He is not divine; God then becomes a changeling, and we then no longer have a divine, perfect God. If the Creator cannot lay out a perfect plan for His creation from the beginning, then He is not all knowing, He is simply fallible. Is this the god you believe in?

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    you also said..."here you are putting your limitation on what the spirit of christ can do in a committed intimate relationship between two of the same sex. "
    Well, you are putting limitation on what the Spirit of Christ can do in changing a person both inside and out. The god you serve is powerless. The God I serve can change a person, heal them, bring sight to the blind, raise the dead to life, bring hearing to the deaf, etc.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet...who are YOU to say that a man doesn't love his dog or horse and want to have a relatiionship with them? Quit being so judgemental! It's LOVE!

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Actually, the word of God is putting a limitation on what God will do.

    My witness is the Holy Spirit and the word of God.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    here you are putting your limitation on what the spirit of christ can do in a committed intimate relationship between two of the same sex.

    here again what is your witness in christ to commited intimate relationships between same sexes. isn't time for you to stop hypostulating what is, and instead make a 1john1 witness in christ to what you are supposing. without a witness in fellowship you have only an untested unsubstantiated belief.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

    A man does not love himself, if he loves another man in sexual intimacy. He is sinning, unable to complete the commandment, “as his own body.” For a man to love his mate as himself, the relationship (marriage) must be male and female. The word of God is clear, a wife is female, never a male.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jester_in_the_Kings_court

    surely you are not comparing bestiality, some human obsession about animals with two human beings bonding out of mutual love,attraction, respect,and trust for a shared committed life together.

    are you saying that bonding of two the same sex is more comparable to beastiality than heterosexual bonding?

    please explain?

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    what is unloving in saying that in addition to confessing with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believing in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved, that someone who lives a "good" life, or give enough money to charity, or looks good enough, cant be saved as well. Heck...the Bible is like the constitution isnt it? Just add amendments because only God inspired it....and He's not perfect, so we have to help him out.
    by your statement, feet, you have attempted to pull God down to your level because you're lazy. Well, its your eternity...not mine that you're screwing up.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yeah i see Jesus' love...
    Matthew 10:34-38 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
    There's a lot of love there.
    You said "what is unloving in saying that in addition to a man leaving his parents and cleaving to a woman to be one flesh. men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, rather than placing a heavy burden of obstention or the heavy burden of having change what they are attracted to..............that they also can bond to that which they are attracted to out of mutual,love ,respect, and trust to also become one flesh."
    So, incestuous marriages are ok? Someone who "loves" their pet can marry them without judgement of God because it's "love".

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wilderness



    titus 2:11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.



    here again paul tells us to make proactive choices of the spirit of self-control, uprightness(goodness), godly(goodness and faithfulness) over ungodliness( idolatryand debauchery) and worldly passions(selfish ambition and sexual immorality)

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet



    "Homosexuality is a sin. There are many brothers and sisters in bondage to it, and I pray for them. I love them. But loving them does not mean that I condone homosexuality."



    homosexuals live their orientation 24/7 , in some cases since they were a small child.



    are you saying that i, prophet,who have no understanding as what is means to have a homosexual orientation, the most i have to offer my brothers in chist whom i share the same inheritance is either my arm chair ruminations over what is a sin and what is not a sin, or my understanding of a teaching about a specific point of the law. that of myself i bare no responsiblity to test this understanding thru one on one fellowship in christ.



    i have a hard time seeing much love in that.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "eh...homosexuality is still a sin...no matter what spin you put on it...." im not calling for a spin but a test thru a fellowship witness, in the spirit of christ to see if those who you condemn actually serve of a different spirit, than that of christ.



    romans 7:But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


    you assume they serve of a different spirit, that fruit of the spirit that they serve is not love, joy,peace, kindness,patience.self-control,gentleness,goodness, and faithfulness. but until you have witnessed in christ your assumption is unsubstantiated, and you offer no credible witness..............................only suppostition.

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gmg



    does holy spirit negate lev? what is unloving in saying that in addition to a man leaving his parents and cleaving to a woman to be one flesh. men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women, rather than placing a heavy burden of obstention or the heavy burden of having change what they are attracted to..............that they also can bond to that which they are attracted to out of mutual,love ,respect, and trust to also become one flesh.



    matt11:

    29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."



    yet i know there are those among you who would rationalize how having to make these changes is not a heavy burden for the sake of their own theology.



    that is why i have said what is your test? as a christian there is only one test, witness thru fellowship. because we see only in part, a poor reflection. it is only thru walking in the light , walking in fellowship that thru the grace of the spirit(being under grace) that we will see and understand what is the truth in christ.



    and that witness is a 1john1 witness.............that which "we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched" that was the only way that john could credible testimony as to jesus being christ. can we do any less to give credible testimony as to what is of christ?

  • Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:11-14).

    As you can see, grace teaches us to deny and live. How may I profit fully under the tutelage of grace? “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).

    Sadly, there are those who resist the teachings of grace. They turn grace into a license to sin. They twist the scriptures unto their own destruction. They turn a truth into a lie, so that they might continue in their ungodly ways.

    Humbleness is the tuition for greater teaching. “…Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble” (James 4:6).

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