Saudi Arabia Leader Calls for Interfaith Dialogue

steiner »

Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:37 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Islam is a revealed religion and the way it was revealed must be made known, because there lays the key to understanding Islam. The following information can be easily accessed in the West with little effort and research.


When Mohammed was contacted by the spirit (Jibrail) in the cave he was convinced he had been contacted by a harmful (evil) spirit and returned very distressed to his wife Khadijah, who thought otherwise, and to reassure Mohammed, she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, who, allegedly, was "a very old man who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians" and on this old man's OPINION , the spirit who had contacted Mohammed was declared as coming from God and that Mohammed was to become the Prophet of his people! (pages 10 and 11 of the introduction to the English translation of the Holy Quran by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall). If this old man really knew the Christian Scriptures he would have told Mohammed that he had been contacted by an evil spirit (as Mohammed had correctly thought when the spirit had first appeared to him) on the basis of the biblical teaching found in the New Testament in the letter to the Galatians 1:8 where it is stated ..."if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached (Jesus' gospel) let him be eternally condemned"...
To be brief... the Koran was revealed by a false spirit (a demon) as the translator Marmaduke Pickthall so unwittingly gives testimony to in his introduction of the Holy Quran page 11, 3rd paragraph: "the words which came to him (Mohammed) when in a state of trance are held sacred by the Muslims and are never confounded with those which he uttered when no physical change was apparent in him. The former are the Sacred Book (the Koran); the latter the Hadith or Sunnah...” with the above statement Pickthall is confirming that the Koran was recited by Mohammed while in a state of trace or in other words under demonic possession. Consequently, it should not surprise us that when a person starts believing in the Koran, a demonic product, he turns evil. In the New Testament in the letter to the Ephesians 4:30 ..." God's Holy Spirit... gets rid of all bitterness, passion, anger... hateful feelings of any sort... instead makes you kind and tender hearted... forgiving one another... as God has forgiven you through Christ." This Spirit is not the spirit that leads practicing muslims to become suicide bombers .

As Christians in the West we have a great opportunity and obligation to lovingly approach our Muslim neighbours with the Good News of the true Jesus so that their eyes may be opened and step from darkness into light.

steiner »

Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:37 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Islam is a revealed religion and the way it was revealed must be made known, because there lays the key to understanding Islam. The following information can be easily accessed in the West with little effort and research.


When Mohammed was contacted by the spirit (Jibrail) in the cave he was convinced he had been contacted by a harmful (evil) spirit and returned very distressed to his wife Khadijah, who thought otherwise, and to reassure Mohammed, she took him to her cousin Waraqa ibn Naufal, who, allegedly, was "a very old man who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians" and on this old man's OPINION , the spirit who had contacted Mohammed was declared as coming from God and that Mohammed was to become the Prophet of his people! (pages 10 and 11 of the introduction to the English translation of the Holy Quran by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall). If this old man really knew the Christian Scriptures he would have told Mohammed that he had been contacted by an evil spirit (as Mohammed had correctly thought when the spirit had first appeared to him) on the basis of the biblical teaching found in the New Testament in the letter to the Galatians 1:8 where it is stated ..."if an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached (Jesus' gospel) let him be eternally condemned"...
To be brief... the Koran was revealed by a false spirit (a demon) as the translator Marmaduke Pickthall so unwittingly gives testimony to in his introduction of the Holy Quran page 11, 3rd paragraph: "the words which came to him (Mohammed) when in a state of trance are held sacred by the Muslims and are never confounded with those which he uttered when no physical change was apparent in him. The former are the Sacred Book (the Koran); the latter the Hadith or Sunnah...” with the above statement Pickthall is confirming that the Koran was recited by Mohammed while in a state of trace or in other words under demonic possession. Consequently, it should not surprise us that when a person starts believing in the Koran, a demonic product, he turns evil. In the New Testament in the letter to the Ephesians 4:30 ..." God's Holy Spirit... gets rid of all bitterness, passion, anger... hateful feelings of any sort... instead makes you kind and tender hearted... forgiving one another... as God has forgiven you through Christ." This Spirit is not the spirit that leads practicing muslims to become suicide bombers .

As Christians in the West we have a great opportunity and obligation to lovingly approach our Muslim neighbours with the Good News of the true Jesus so that their eyes may be opened and step from darkness into light.

Intrigued »

Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

akonda,

No doubt your beliefs and answers are well thought out. A couple of questions for you;

In light on your beliefs concerning grace and santification, how would you interpret our Lord's response to Zacchaeus in the 19th Chapter of Luke, specifically verses 8-9? Could there be a distinct difference in Zacchaeus' "works" and those Paul speaks of Romans 4?

Also, your comments on baptism are interesting. Do you believe that act is at all necessary as a component for Christian life?

akonda »

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

when one is justified he is promised eternal life. john 3:16. we do NOT need any other grace(s) to attain it because the free gift of God is itself eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

akonda »

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

as per the RCC there is a distinction between initial grace and sanctifying grace. while we cant merit the initial grace we can however merit sanctifying grace. grace according to scripture is the free gift of God to us and that gift is our forensic justification in Christ. As such, to be justified means to be legally declared righteous not to actually be made righteous. And baptism has nothing to confer this grace of God upon us. romans4 tells us that by putting our trust in Christ just as Abraham did we are justified before God not because we did something to merit it but because we put our faith in Christ.
What the RCC says is that though no one deserves to be saved yet once God initiates it (initial grace which we dont deserve) we can cooperate with Him and merit additional grace. Scripture makes no such distinctions in grace. It clearly differentiates justification and sanctification. Both dont mean the same thing. Justification is a one time deal whereas sanctification goes on for a lifetime. The only thing that we can do is point to Christ. not what our hands have done but what Christ has done is what is going to save us.

Intrigued »

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

akadona, you haven't fully quoted either of those paragraphs from the Catechism. Could you please supply the full text and scripture references noted within each paragraph?

FYI, the Catechism does define grace as follows:

"Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life" Paragraph 1996

ILJ »

Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:11 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Christian, Jew, or Muslim anyone who talks of 'vanquishing' other people over their beliefs is not 'tolerant'.

pastorjohn »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:09 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

The question I posed yesterday about "Is there a difference between Catholics and Christians" was a rhetorical question. Of course there is a difference. Having said that I believe that the Catholic church started out wanting to do what was right, but somewhere along the way, strayed away from the clear teachings of Jesus. A lot of what I have a problem with is the same thing that started the Reformation. Least you think I disagree with Catholic beliefs and therefore think less of the people that adhere to these teachings, know that in the town we are in the Catholic church is in the majority. Do I accept these folks and share the same love of Christ that I do to those who believe as I do? Yes I do. Just because we don't agree, doesn't mean we can't be nice to one another.
Let me be clear I do have a problem with a works based salvation, and therefore can't call that Christianity. I would not ostracize someone over this belief, but I don't think that we could really consider ourselves on the same page theologically.

Gen1_28 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:50 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

I can't blame these Muslims for not allowing people to worship another faith. After all, The Bible commands that a Godly nation will follow God's laws and apply the same law to the believer and the unbeliever.

I REALLY hate to say this- but Christians can actually learn something from these Muslims... They are passionate about their faith and (mostly not in America) many follow it. How many Christians can be counted who are as adamant on following the precepts of God? Not many since most Christians send their children to public school and are stuck in a 30 year mortgage, both of which are grossly frowned on, considered curses, or outright agaist scripture.

I encourage all here to let this news article spur us on to a greater obedience to God and the Bible.

akonda »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

anyone who says that they have merited their salvation cant be christians. catholics dont believe that grace is an unmerited gift but rather they believe that have to work with Gods grace to merit his favor.

# We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1821).
# "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC, par. 2010).
# "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema." (Canon 9, Council of Trent).
# "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14, Council of Trent).
http://www.carm.org/catholic/saved.htm.

the catechism and the the council of trent denounce all protestants who believe that we are saved by grace alone (unmerited gift) through faith alone in christ alone (romans 3,4, eph 2:8-10). the differences between catholics and protestants arent just a matter of semantics. catholics believe in a different gospel altogether. those who had a good laugh at the link i gave yesterday would be better off addressing the issues at hand starting with the differences in how one is saved. it is loving and not bickering to show someone who is lost what the bible really says about salvation. so before u accuse me of being dishonest or ignorant read the link i gave (http://www.carm.org/catholic.htm). open up ur bibles and verify if what i am saying is true.

Online4Him »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:18 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

Why someone would flag a post that others agreed with, is interesting? Here it is again -

I would have to agree with pastorjohn, there is a vast difference between biblical Christianity and Catholicism. Biblical Christianity is centered on Christ while Catholicism is centered on itself. There are some similarities between the religion of Mohammad and the Vatican -

Both religions believe in using FORCE to spread their version of the one true god to the unbelievers.

Both religions believe in a union with the state or of using the police powers of the state to compel obedience to their tenets.

Both religions have a "holy" shrine in which the believers are taught to look to as their headquarters, Mecca and the Vatican.

john14-6 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

BTW, it was just announced yesterday that the news channels in Saudi Arabia have said that the King has "decided against" allowing the Catholics to build a church. So much for the Saudi commitment to "interfaith dialogue".

john14-6 »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:57 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

Catholics are true Christians. Anyone who says they aren't is simply ignorant. They subscribe to all of the basic creeds of the original church: the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed. I disagree with them on many points of doctrine (especially the whole praying to Mary and the Saints, statues, and purgatory and mortal/venial sins) but to suggest that they are not Christian is simply ignorant or dishonest.

There can be no interfaith dialogue with Islam or the Kingdom of Saud. Until the Kingdom of Saud opens its "kingdom" to allow Christians to build churches, there is nothing to talk about. The Saudis are notoriously devious (as are most Muslims, because the Koran tells them it is okay to lie to infidels - it's called "taqqiya" and contrary to what Muslims might disemble, it isn't just limited to Shia Islam - all Muslims are taught from birth that it is okay to lie to infidels especially to advance Islam). Any "interfaith" dialogue with Muslims is nearly always a one way dialogue. "You infidels listen up" is generally the tone. They have no interest in listening to Christians or anyone else, or in any kind of true reciprocity. It is completely against their Koran.

You cannot dialogue with any religion that claims that the Trinity is false, that Christians and Jews are the "descendants of apes and pigs", that denies the Resurrection, that teaches its believers from infancy that anyone who is not a Muslim is sub-human, on par with a chicken or a cow, or a dog, a religion that teaches the genocide of the Jewish people, and a religion that treats women as 1/2 as valuable as a man, a religion that does not allow any freedom of conscience and teaches that anyone who converts out of it should be put to death, or a religion that mercilessly subjugates every other faith it comes into contact with.

There is virtually no Muslim country, not even supposed "moderate" and "secular" Turkey, where Christians are not being treated as second class citizens, persecuted relentlessly, imprisoned, tortured and killed.

Any talk of an interfaith dialogue with such an inherently wicked and evil people, and faith, cannot produce anything of worth.

ameliagaillard »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

Sad to me that the protestant Christians sound more "focused on themselves" than the Catholic ones. & I'm a protestant...maybe we just like to "protest"??? This is a marvelous answer to many prayers, a crack in the dark shroud over a nation that Jesus died to save. How about we try the Matt 5:44 approach here instead of bickering like 10 year olds over "who's right".

tamna »

Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:58 am Agree: 6   Disagree: 5

I don't know which is more hilarious, the article about "interfaith dialogue" with Islam (without the use of high explosives or large knives), or the comments about Catholics not being Christians or only semi- or "sort of" Christians. Are there differences between the Latin Rite Catholic Church and the 30,000+ DIFFERENT Protestant denominations. Of course. But to believe the differences are huge or Catholics are not "saved" reveals an ignorance, or misunderstanding, of Catholicism.

akonda: Thank you so much for the link. I needed a good laugh today.

A.S.Mathew »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

It is a green signal from the leader of Saudi Arabia that a dialogue must be conducted in
between the cousin religions; Islam, Jewish and Christian religion. While Saudi Arabia was
building Islamic worship centers around the world, they didn't allow any other religion to
build a place of worship in Saudi Arabia. Now, the leader has reached the borderline of
rationality. One day, Saudi Arabia has to permit believers of other religions to have their
place of worship.

The most commendable thought from the ruler, that he could see the erosion of morality and
values from the society and he knew that relgious values are very important to keep
values and morality in any society. I wish, if other world leaders could learn that cardinal
lesson of life.

SweetBeloved »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Great link! Thanks Aconda!

akonda »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:42 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

no difference between catholicism and christianity? check this link out
http://www.carm.org/catholic.htm

FullGospel »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:59 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 4

Hey PastorJohn, my brother, there is no difference between Catholicism and Christianity. It IS Christianity, as proven throughout the writings of the earliest Christians. But, to get back on topic, though, I think this is phenomenal that there is a Christian Church now being built there. Could have been anyone. It happened to be Catholic.

The moment one ceases to fight against Jesus, one is actively drawn toward Him, so praise God for bestowing more of His grace on us with this announcement.

pastorjohn »

Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:28 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 3

I am confused. Is there not a difference between Islam, Catholicism and Christianity? It seems to me that more I hear about "the first Christian church in Qatar" the more confused I am. The article states it is a Catholic church, why doesn't the article use the word "Catholic". Don't get me wrong I believe there are those who serve our Lord Jesus in the Catholic faith, but the idea I get from this and other articles is that there is no difference between Catholicism and Christianity. I must differ with this assumption. There is a difference between Chrisitanity and Catholicism.
BTW, I for one do not believe that there will a free exchange of ideas in Saudi Arabia at this conference. I applaud those who are trying to work for a peaceful coexistence, but the Islamic faith does not tolerate "infidels" and does not honor "the people of the book". The brand of Islam that is being exported from Saudi Arabia is Wahabbism (spelling?). This whole topic is discussed in Dore Gold's book "Hatred's Kingdom". Don't forget it was Rudolph Giuliani who returned a 10 million dollar check from Saudi Arabia, when he noticed the shiek was "smirking" as he viewed the devastation at Ground Zero.