This weekend, the founders of the Creation Museum will celebrate the anniversary of their one year opening with much fanfare and jubilation.
The museum, which features the Bible’s literal account of creation as aligned with natural history, has been billed a success by its founders.
Ken Ham, president and co-founder of Answers in Genesis, the founding organization of the museum, spoke optimistically of the museum’s future and his plan for expanding its operations.
"We are delighted to continue to welcome new visitors to the museum and we are excited about the future as we continue to reach new people with the creation/gospel message," he said in a statement.
Ham said that the museum planned to build a series of parks and kiosks that would help the museum be more family friendly and attractive to younger visitors over the course of the next year. He also explained his hope for the museum as a tool for bringing people to Christ and furthering the cause of Biblical creationism.
"We are somewhat optimistic that for our second year, we'll have over 300,000 visitors come here," added Mark Looy, one of the museum's co-founders, according to the Kentucky Enquirer.
The Creation Museum, located in Petersburg, Ky., just outside of Cincinnati, has attracted over 400,000 visitors since its opening in May last year and is packed with high-tech exhibits that include animatronic dinosaurs and a huge wooden ark. The founders of the museum, like many other Young Earth creationists, believe dinosaurs appeared on the same day God created other land animals.
This Friday, the museum will celebrate its one-year anniversary with fireworks, a musical about Noah’s flood, and the opening of its brand new petting zoo.
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believer
You said: "Based on the scriptures I have shared with you at no time is our eternal security in jeopardy because Christ secured it for us on the cross at Calvary..."
If this is true then why would God even bother dealing with a believer on his death bed about sin issues in his/her life like He did with Gladys and others I know and you have known? After all, they are going to Heaven anyway, so why bother?
star2, you have given my personal experinces in your life which I believe are both real and true, as a Hospice Chaplain for four years I have personally sat at the bed of people who made things right between them and God as well as family and friends, butwhat you have not shown me is scriptures that when read in there proper context specifically state that a truly born again believer can lose their salvation and be eternally seperated from God and I believe I've shown you numerous scriptures in there proper context to include the words of Christ Himself that teach the eternal security of the believer. I think the best thing for both of us is to call a cease fire and agree to disagree on this and continue to move forward in our journeys and as God provides opportunity support each other in both prayer and blogging, God blessing on you, your brother in the Lord believer.
believer
I am sorry, but I do not agree with you about how eternal salvation works. I have seen or heard too many Christians whom God dealt with about some sin issues in their life before they died to discount the need for such inorder to secure their salvation. Two of them, a man and a woman, each served God faithfully and did not for sure know of their eternal destiny (they had fear) as they approached death until God dealt with them about some sin issues and they obeyed God in what He wanted them to do. Then they had peace and were assured of their eternal salvation.
I believe scripture supports my position. I cannot open your understanding to such. It takes God.
I agree to disagree with you on this issue. I was once like you until God removed that platform from beneath my feet and had me seek Him and Him alone for the doctrine. To date, what I tried to explain to you is my best understanding of it.
All believers are accountable to God for what they believe. It is important that we rightly divide the truth of God's Word. Further, what we believe does influence how we minister to people God's Word. Let us not let any one slip through the cracks because we did not rightly divide God's Word.
(I flagged myself to add a statement.)
star2, on your question on habitual sin, yes He does but He does it because He desires to make me like His Son. I believe that every Christian has at least one what I call pet sin, that sin that as hard as we try as much as we pray seems to so easily trip us up, some believe that's what Paul was refering to when he talked about his thorn in the flesh, those sin that for what ever reason God refuses to take from our lives, perhaps it's His way of keeping us both humble and dependent on Him by not totally eradicating it from our lives, those sins that we'll never have complete victory over until we go home, those sins like smoking that God seems to remove instantanously from the life of one believer but allows another believer to struggle with until they go home, why He chooses to remove it from one and not the other well that's a question that only He can answer but I know whatever He does and doesn't do it's always the best answer because He's God and He not only knows what is best for His children but there is always a purpose for what He does or doesn't do in the life of His children, but what does this have to do with the issue of eternal security?
star2, no I think you may have bought into the idea that once saved always saved gives us free license to live our lives any way we want, but Hebrews clearly teaches that if we are truly a child of God and we willfully disobey Him when we sin He will lovingly but firmly discipline us, if we are living our livesin any way we want and we are not being disciplined by God then we are not a child of God. This view about eternal security is a product of the cheap grace gospel which say salvation is all about going to heaven and not going to hell, but this discipline is about God maturing us into Christlikeness and has nothing to do with our eternal destiny because once again this was totally determined through the death of Christ on the Cross and once again all we can do is accept it or reject it. I'll be at lunch so it will be a while before I can get back with you, your brother in Christ, believer
believer
Your understanding of eternal security does not align itself with Hebrews 5:9.
Speaking of Jesus,
Hebrews 5:9 - "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him."
(I flagged myself to make a correction.)
believer
Does God ever deal with you about a sin that you committed that you need to ask Him to forgive you for? Has He ever dealt with you about a habitual sin in your life that you need to repent from?
star2, if a person willfully disobeys God and shows no desire to obey God then there is a high probability if not certainty that they were never saved in the first place. But as a Christian we still sin, but that doesn't mean we don't love God it means we gave into temptation and we need to confess and repent of that sin not too stay saved but to be in close communion with God in order to grow in our relationship with Him and so that He will allow us to join Him in doing His Will. Based on the scriptures I have shared with you at no time is our eternal security in jeopardy because Christ secured it for us on the cross at Calvary and when He said "it is finished" all that could be done to save us from the eternal consequences of our sin past, present, and future had been done and the only thing we can do is accept it or reject it, because there is absolutely nothing we can do to earn it or keep it, it is a gift from God, and if we could do anything to earn it or keep it, then Christ died in vain.
believer
Re:I don't know of any Christian who either by commission or omission does not sin on almost a daily basis and all sin is disobedience to God
Yes, I agree with you here. All those sins are covered through imputed righteousness. How do we receive imputed righteousness? By believing. You show your belief in God through obeying God in what He wants you to do.
star2, please share the scriptures that teach specifically that God will convict you of your need to repent from what He is holding against you, because to be honest I know of no scripture that teaches that. Your example was a good one of the convicting power of God that when we confess our sins He will not only forgive us but cleanse us from the unrighteousness associated with those sins, yes He gave her the peace of mind she needed but to say He would have eternally seperated her from herself had she not confessed each of those sins, there simply is no scripture to support that plus let me ask you after you got saved did you sit down and go back and confess each and every sin you committed because it appears your saying if you did not you risk the possibility of eternal seperation from God if you don't before you die.
believer
Part 1
Re:I don't know of any Christian who either by commission or omission does not sin on almost a daily basis and all sin is disobedience to God
Agreed.
Re: yet you appear to be saying that if a believer dies without out confessing just one of those sins they will be eternally seperated from God.
That is not what I said. God knows what is a barrier between you and Him. Before you die He will convict you of your need to repent from what He is holding against you. It is responding to that conviction that brings forgiveness. If you rebel and don't respond to His urging to repent then that sin is held against you.
believer
Part 2
I'll bring up Gladys again. When I met her in the nursing home she was a very difficult person to deal with. She cussed and was very ugly towards everyone. When I told her she needed Jesus she would say that she already had Jesus. I told her that she needed to act like like it then.
I was going nowhere with Gladys in this issue. God told me to fast and pray for her salvation. I did. Then some time later when I was visiting her in her room God told me to deal with her need to recommit her life to Jesus. I told her that she needed to recommit her life to Jesus and that she heard. When I gave her the gospel the Holy Ghost was all over that lady in a very strong way convicting her that she was a sinner and that Jesus died for her. She wanted to recommit her life to Jesus and she did.
That lady changed. She no longer cussed and was no longer a difficult person to get along with. Plus there were other changes in her life.
A short time later, maybe 3 weeks or so, when I walked into her room, she said that she was afraid to die. I was sort of taken aback by this. I told God that I didn't understand. She just got saved not too long ago and this shouldn't be. God told me to ask her about her past.
As Gladys recounted her life I found out that she had been wounded real bad by her husband and other people. She was holding unforgiveness in her heart towards those people. I told her that she needed to forgive them or God would not forgive her. She began to forgive each person. When she was done with what God was dealing with her about she said, 'I am not afraid to die anymore.'
Gladys was truly born-again. She showed it by a changed life. But there was an unforgiveness issue that God needed to deal with. When God dealt with it, she responded and forgave. She then was no longer afraid to die.
The only way to have peace on your death bed is to be right with God (1 John 4:17). If you have fear, then you are not right with God (1 John 4:18). If you are not right with God it is because there is some sin in your life that God needs for you to repent from. For Gladys it was unforgiveness. For others it might be adultery, like the man I told you about in my Church. For others, it might be a judgmental spirit. For others, it may be that they never put God first in their life. What ever the case may be, God knows what it is and He will deal with a believer about the sin issue and give him a chance to repent. If they obey God, they are cleansed from their unrighteousness and will go to heaven when they die. If they rebel and refuse to obey, then God cannot cleanse them from that unrighteousness. They will perish because they died with unforgiven sin.
If you still can't see my point , then I agree to disagree about this doctrine. Either you are right or I am right. Let God be the judge.
star2, I don't know of any Christian who either by commission or omission does not sin on almost a daily basis and all sin is disobedience to God and yet you appear to be saying that if a believer dies without out confessing just one of those sins they will be eternally seperated from God. Looking at that view from a practical point of view if as a pastor I were to preach the funeral of a believer the only encouragment I could give to their loved ones is as long as he confessed each and every one of his sins he's in heaven but if he missed even one he is eternally seperated from God. Romans 8:1-3 says if a person belongs to Christ they will not be punished because Christ has set us free from sin and death, Paul was talking in the present not the future as do all the other scriptures I shared with you that support the teaching of eternal security, the moment we accepted Christ as Savior we received eternal life. And as I said this is going to have to be an area we'll have to agree to disagree on because for me in my study of the Word of God I have not found any scriptures when kept in there proper context specifically show that it is possible for someone who has made a genuine profession of faith to lose their salvation and yet as I've shared with you I find numerous scriptures to include the words of Christ that support the view of the eternal security of the believer.
believer
Can't be separated from the love of God?
Jesus speaking,
John 15:10 - "If you keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
The one thing that can separate you from the love of God is your lack of obedience.
The one thing that is not included in that list that Paul gave of the things that cannot separate you from the love of God is you. You can separate yourself from God's love in all those experiences he mentioned (tribulation, persecution, famine, nakedness, death, etc) by disobeying God.
star2, Romans 2:1-11 Paul is speaking to the unsaved not the saved. But if you read Romans 8:31-39, Paul is speaking to believers when he tells them there is absolutely nothing that can seperate a believer from the love of God. But I can see that this will have to be an issue that we will have to agree to disagree on and that's why I don't make it a point of fellowship, but I need to hit the sack so have a blessed night and we'll blog soon, believer
believer
You have misunderstood what I said. I will repeat it again.
Jesus placed the retention of our salvation into the hands of God. If a truly born again believer, one who has been regenerated by the Holy Ghost and shows this regeneration by a changed life, for some reason gets away from God, then God will make every effort to bring the wayward Christian back into a right relationship with Himself before it is too late or before he dies. If the wayward Christian repents and obeys God then when he dies he will go to heaven. If he doesn't obey God, then when he dies he will parish.
God knows when you are going to die and under what conditions. He also knows if there are any sin issues in your life that need to be dealt with before you die. GOD WILL MOVE ON YOU TO REPENTANCE BEFORE YOU DIE. IF YOU COOPERATE, then WHEN YOU DIE you WILL GO TO HEAVEN because ALL your SINS have been FORGIVEN. IF YOU DON'T, then WHEN YOU DIE you WILL GO TO HELL because YOU DIED WITH UNFORGIVEN SIN in your life.
God is no respector of persons. Die in your sins and you will perish whether you are a believer or not (Romans 2:1-11).
John 10:27-30 - Jesus is saying that no man outside of yourself can pluck you out of the Father's hand.
When a person is saved they do not have a blanket forgiveness that grants them eternal life when they die even if they don't obey God when He calls them to repentance. Yes, a believer is sealed with the Holy Ghost but the believer can break that seal at death thru refusing to repent when God deals with him for repentance. Sometimes, a believer, will break that seal by walking away from God altogether ( I know of someone like that) or they habitually refuse to repent and God no longer continues to convict them of their need to repent (God will not strive with man forever).
God's Word in Hebrews 5:9 makes it very plain that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. A believer must obey God in what He wants them to do. If there is some sin issue that the believer on his death bed or before he dies needs to repent from then they have best obey God when He moves on them and repent or they will not inherit eternal life.
star2, are you saying that if a believer dies with unconfessed sin in their life then they will go to hell? What do you do with John 10:27-30 where Christ says that His sheep will never perish and that no one which includes me can remove me from my Father's hand. And Ephesians 1:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:22 which talk about being sealed by the Holy Spirit? Once again I think the issue your dealing with is relational forgiveness which hinders our fellowship with God, but none the less God remains our Heavenly Father and we are secure in Him.
believer
Mary Jane's sister had been truly born-again by the spirit of God but there was an issue in her life that God had to deal with before she died in order to secure her salvation. If she obeyed, then she went to Heaven. If she disobeyed through some stubborness or whatever, then she parished because she would have died in her sins.
star2, I have yet to meet a person who after having come into a real and genuine relationship with Christ could ever willfully reject Him from their life considering what He had to endure to save them in the first place, I'm not talking about a highly emotional or volitile situation but for someone in a rational state of mind to purposely and willfully eject Christ out of their life, but please remember I hold firm to the teaching of eternal security and believe the Bible teaches it is impossible for a "truly born again believer to lose their salvation". But as much as hold true to this belief I do not use it as a point of fellowship. Plus I think one other problem that impacts this issue is so many churches do a horrible job in the area of follow-up and discipleship, a close friend of mine said that the problem in too many Baptist churches is we've developed the mindset of "save-em, bathe-em, and let-em go" as a result we have a lot of baby Christians floating around and even worse a lot of people who have not had a genuine conversion experience in the first place.
star2, the Bible teaches two types of forgiveness, there is legal forgiveness which was fully paid by the work of Christ on Calvary and then there is relational forgiveness which is what Jesus was speaking to with regards to the consequences of not forgiving others, the story of the prodigal son is often used as a salvation message but it would be better used to show the difference between legal and relational forgiveness, the son never stopped being his father's son but their relationship was never what it should or could have been the same is true with a believer who holds unconfessed sin in their heart they never stop being the Father's child but they miss out on having the close intimate relationship that God desires to have with them, the way I discovered this is when I struggled with verses that teach that Christ died once for sins, all sins past, present, and future and the consequences of those sins and when we accept Christ all our sins are forgiven as well as the consequences and yet other verses tell us we're to ask for forgiveness when we sin forgiveness from God as well as those we've sinned against. When we accept Christ we recieve both legal and relational forgiveness we become a child of God and begin a personal relationship with Him through Christ, we will always be a child of His, but the closeness of the relationship will change depending on our love, trust, and obedience and if we truly allow Him to be the Lord of our life. What really brings confusion to this issue is the cheap grace gospel that promotes salvation as no more than a get out of hell free card as opposed to salvation being about a relationship, as to the example you gave if she made a genuine profession of faith she's with the Lord but think how miserable she had to be not only in her relationship with the pastor but more importantly with God because she refused to let go and give it to God and think how much deeper her relationship with her Heavenly Father could have been.
star2, I believe that the Bible contains many verses that support eternal security where Christ says that we are in the Father's hands and on one or nothing to include ourselves can take us out of God's hands. Plus even the writer of hebrews states that if it is possible notice he does not say it is but if it is possible then once a person loses their salvation they can never be saved again. In Corinthians were told that even if all our works rather good or bad are no more than wood, hay, and stubble and consumed that we still have the foundation of our relationship with Jesus Christ, in other words we may make it only in by the hair of our chinny chin chin but we still make it in. The reason why many people struggle with this issue is because they see it as giving people free license to live their life any way they want without any consequences but if they profess to being a believer and willfully live in sin either God will seriously chastise them or they are not His in the first place. Plus even though I firmly believe the Bible teaches eternal security, if it were possible for a person to lose their salvation it would be a result of them willfully with all their heart rejecting Christ from their life as Savior and Lord because that is how we are saved not by works but by faith. And with God all sins are equal so according to the example you gave if a person dies with known unconfessed sin on their heart they have forfieted their inheritance of eternal life, but eternal life for the believer begins the moment they accept Christ as their Savior. The Lordship issue is a struggle every Christian will carry all of their life because of our sin nature since Lordship is a daily moment by moment, choice by choice decision in the life of every believer.
believer
Re: eternal security
Part 1
I believe that as a believer we can have security in knowing that if we get away from God either through unforgiveness towards those who do us wrong, disobedience to God in something He would have us do, etc. or there is some sin in our life that we need to repent from that God, in His timing, will do what He needs to do to bring us back into a right relationship with him. I do not believe, however, that our eternity is secured regardless of whether we obey God or not. Let me illustrate what I mean by what I say.
Example 1: My ex-Pastor (now retired) wife's (Mary Jane) had a sister who she knew was born again. Mary Jane's sister attended Church regulary. In the course of time, Mary Jane's sister was hurt by some people in the Church. Also, the Pastor of her Church did something to her, that in her thinking, was unconscientionable and she left Church never to attend again.
Mary Jane's sister had a bad liver and was on her death bed. Mary Jane spent much time with her. She discussed with her many things regarding her salvation and her relationship with God. The issue of unforgiveness came up. Mary Jane told her that if she didn't forgive those who did her wrong then God would not forgive her (Matt 6:14-15). Mary Jane's sister was able to forgive the people in the church and others in her life but she could not forgive her Pastor. Mary Jane told her she had to forgive her Pastor and left her with reminder that Jesus said that if you don't forgive then God will not forgive you.
Mary Jane did not have any more opportunity to talk with her sister before she died and does not know if she ever forgave the Pastor.
Again, I believe that God will make every effort to bring a child of His that is not right with Him back into a right relationship with Him during their life or before they die. I believe that God gave Mary Jane's sister an opportunity to forgive her Pastor. Now, one of two things may have happened. 1) Mary Jane's sister surrendered to God and forgave her Pastor, or 2) Mary Jane's sister refused to forgive.
Jesus said that if you don't forgive, God will not forgive you (Matt 6:14-15).
If Mary Jane's sister obeyed God from her heart and forgave her Pastor then she was forgiven by God and when she died she went to heaven because she had no unforgiven sins in her life. (Truthfully, I believe that is what happened.)
However, let's say that Mary Jane's sister refused to obey God and didn't forgive her Pastor. She, then, would have died with unforgiven sins in her life. What do you really expect a just God and a God who is no respector of person to do with a believer who stands before Him in eternity with unforgiven sins in their life (died in their sins) because they refused to obey God and forgive?
believer
Part 2
Example 2: I attended a Church that had prayer time every Sunday morning during the Church service. Memebers of the Church who felt called by God to be a member of the Prayer Ministry stood in front of the Church during that time to pray for anyone who went to them for prayer. They were also available at the conclusion of the Sunday PM service and the Wedneday night service.
There was a man who was very active in the Church, who God used on many occassions thru the gifts of the spirit, and who also served as member of the Prayer Ministry.
This man was married. One Wednesday night a married woman who started going to the Church went to him for prayer. Something happened between them. He and she became overwhelmed with a stronger sexual attraction for one another. This sexual attraction continued and they eventually began to go to a hotel after Church to have sex. The husband of the woman found out and came to the Church threatening bodily harm to his wife and the man. The Pastor found out and called this man into account. The Pastor told him he was committing adultery, that he was not right with God, that he needed to repent, and if he didn't he would perish. The man insisted that his attraction for the woman was of God and that he would not repent. The Pastor said that because he would not repent that he would no longer serve in the Church effective immediately.
The man and the woman left the Church and left their respective spouses. They went to many Churches looking for a Pastor that would agree with their behavior. After many attempts to find a Pastor that agreed with them they finally found one and attended that Pastor's Church.
Approximately two years after the incident occured with the Pastor of my Church the man became mysteriously ill. He was on his death bed. God dealt with this man about his sin and he repented. He called my Pastor and told him what happened. With a contrite heart he asked my Pastor to forgive him for what he did. My Pastor forgave him.
Now, this man repented with a contrite heart on his death bed and I believe he went to heaven when he died. God forgave King David for his adultery and murder after King David repented before God with a contrite heart and God restored to him the joy of his salvation (Psalm 51) and I believe that is what God did for that man too.
However, if that man had not repented and continued to insist that what he and that woman were doing was of God, then he would have perished when he died because no adulterer shall inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).
God will do what He can to retain us in our salvation but if we don't repent and obey God when He deals with us then we will perish because Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Heb 5:9).
star2, I guess this is one area where we disagree with regards to the eternal security of the believer, but the issue I want to talk to is with regards to David and every truly born again believer that it is our love for God that must compel us to obey Him as you so ablely stated what compelled David to obey the Law and why he had the confidence of knowing he would see his son again. As believers we are no longer under the Law but we freely out of love choose to obey the commands of God.
viking
Jesus said that if you love Him you will keep His commandements (John 14:23). God says in His Word through the Apostle John that if you keep Jesus' commandments then you will be perfected in His love (1 John 2:5). He said that if you are perfected in His love then you will have confidence before Him on the day of judgment (1 John 4:17). If you don't have confidence but have fear it is because you have not been perfected in God love which means you didn't keep His commandments (1 John 4:18). The unknown writer of Hebrews says that Jesus Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him (Heb 5:9).
Once a person becomes born-again through the regeneration of the Holy Ghost and evidences this new birth by a changed life, he is expected to walk in obedience to Jesus (make Jesus Lord) and is to live godly in Christ Jesus. Every truly born-again person starts out on this path but reality has it that some get away from God. They may have been hurt by someone and chose not to forgive. They may have gotten their eyes off of God and had an adulterous affair like King David did or like the man at the Church of Corinth who had relations with his father's wife. They may have gotten involved with the occult (played with the ouji board or went to a fortune teller for fun). Maybe they just got rebellious towards God about something God wanted them to do. Whatever they have done they begin to walk in the flesh, they come under condemnation for their sins (Romans 8:1), and they end up losing interest in the things of God and they live like the world. I have witnessed this in different degress in several believers.
Jesus place the retention of our salvation into the hands of God. God will make every effort to bring a wayward Christian back into a right relationship with Him. The believer can either choose to obey or choose to disobey. If the believer choose to disobey and he dies in his sin then he will perish because God is not a respector of persons. If he choose to obey then he will live.
viking
RE:I would urge you to read Paul's letter to Gallatians in which he rebukes them for seeking to "live under the law".
I can't speak for believer but perhaps he brought up the topic of the law based on the comment you made above to prodriver.
viking
RE:But I would point out that this seems to contradicts what Star2 implied regarding David knowing he was going to heaven under the law and thus his statement that he would "go to" his child concieved in adultery being an indication that the child was saved without the benefit of Christ under the law.
David kept the commandments of God because he loved God. There is a difference between keeping the commandments to gain something (eternal life), which would be salvation by works, and keeping them because you love the one who gave the commandments. From Pslam 23 it is obvious that David placed his faith and trust in the living God. David depended on God for everything in his life. David just knew in his heart that his child went to heaven (via the Holy Ghost) and he also knew in his heart that he was going to heaven (Ps 23:6). It has nothing to do with keeping the law. It has everything to do with pursuing God with all your heart and walking in obedience to Him.
viking, I need to add that by time Christ began His earthly ministry the Jews and especially the religious leaders had made it appear that the keeping of the Law is what saved people and the religious leaders for the most part took advantage of that to the point Christ sharply rebuked them for not only taking advantage of the people but misleading them into thinking that the keeping of the Law was what saved a person.
viking, I can't speak for star2, but I believe that in the Old Testament that a person was saved as a result of putting their faith in the promise that God would send a Messiah who would save us from our sins and pay the penalty for our sins by becoming the Sacrificial Lamb, their obedience to the Law was intended to affirm to God and the world their belief in the promise of the coming Messiah. Those sacrificial laws were fulfilled/completed in the work of Christ on Calvary and are no longer necessary today. So star2 may have been saying that since David kept the Law it affirmed his belief in the coming of the Promised Messiah and therefore gave him the assurance of knowing he would be united with his son who died as an infant. As for Grace2 I really do not know this person so I'm really not sure what hei/her agenda is, but I can see he/she aren't afraid to share their opinion.
believer,
Hi again, thanks for the post. I guess I just don;t understand how it relates to the comments on this thread. I can't believe based on our earlier exchanges that you are supporting the invective posted here under this story. By the way so long as you have brought up this topic. I agree doctrinally with what you stated below. But I would point out that this seems to contradicts what Star2 implied regarding David knowing he was going to heaven under the law and thus his statement that he would "go to" his child concieved in adultery being an indication that the child was saved without the benefit of Christ under the law.
Also perhaps you would join your voice to mine in counseling Grace2 regarding the teachings of Christ in relation to her comments on this post.
viking, no longer being under the law also refers to the fact that believers will not be judged by the standards of the Law because Christ has paid the price for the penalty of our sins and serves as our Advocate before our Heavenly Father, unfortunately for those who have rejected Christ they will be judged by the standards of the Law because they rejected not only Christ, but Christ's forgiveness for their sins and will now be punished according to the penalty of their sins.
viking, Paul wrote to the Galatian Church because they were falling for the lies of Judiazers who were telling them, specifically the Gentile believers that their salvation would not be complete unless they adhered to some of the Jewish laws to include circumcision. They were adding to God's plan of salvation which is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. We're no longer under the Law means that that will no longer be the criteria by which a person will be saved and in fact it never was. The Jews were to obey the Law and specifically those Laws with regards to offering sacrifices to show their belief that God would send the Messiah and their desire to show their love for God by obeying His Laws. Paul even says that the Law was never intended to save us but to show us our need to be saved. Christ said that if a man violates even one of the laws He has violated all of them, but no where in the New Testament does either Christ or Paul say that other than those laws that are related to sacrifices are no longer to be adhered to. But the Pentatuch is so much more than a law book it is the history of God's people and also talks to God's involvement with His creation from the beginning and yes it includes the Law but those five books are so much more, but more than anything else they contain the very first promises of the Promised Messiah.
agentorange, you might want to see this video. (Creationists, don't waste your time, you would never understand it).
http://tinyurl.com/4cm76h
"Description: Basic biochemistry and cutting edge molecular research leads us to a powerful explanation of a large set of biological observations. These observations only make sense using the REAL science of evolution."
Grace2,
Even if that description of those accepting evolution were true would that justify your engaging in this type of speech.
I remind you of Christ's words
You must change your hearts - for the kingdom of Heaven has arrived."
"How happy are the humble-minded, for the kingdom of Heaven is theirs!
You have heard that it used to be said, 'You shall love your neighbour', and 'hate your enemy', but I tell you, Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Heavenly Father.
"Don't criticise people, and you will not be criticised. For you will be judged by the way you criticise others, and the measure you give will be the measure you receive."
"Treat other people exactly as you would like to be treated by them - this is the essence of all true religion."
Grace2 I urge you to reflect on the teachings of Christ when you are speaking to unbelievers so that your speech does not drive them further from the possibility of salvation.
viking
Evolutionists would have it that the human race is nothing more than intellectual slime. After all, all life evolved from some primodial soup or slime that somehow through the magic of chance, mutations (mistakes), and time resulted in all the life forms we see today with the highest form of evolved life being the human.
ERVs - why don't you show us your thinking ability by coming up with something original?
Erv, is it scientific to make such a generalization as that on such a limited data base. Does that hypothesis lead us to greater understanding. Does one person's resorting to ridicule and insult to support their agenda justify the choice of another to do so.
slime: A despicable or repulsive person.
According to Grace2 the entire scientific community, and anyone else who loves science, is despicable and repulsive. I bet this is what most Christians believe, but very few are willing to admit it.
intellectual slime?
People who think are slime?
Grace2, you may not realize it, but you are the best possible advertisement for atheism.
Grace2,
As a Christian brother I must remind you that whatever we are God so loved the world (mankind) that he sent his only begotten son to bring us to salvation. I for one am reluctant to second guess God and to cheapen Christ's ministry and sacrifice by saying that the object of that love, ministry and sacrifice is nothing. One of the gifts of salvation is a new heart not of bitterness and anger but of compassion and love. I encourage you to pray for peace and guidance on these matters. Remember those you call intellectual slime are also children of God. Some day you may find that ERV or agentorangex is the prodigal son/lost sheep and that you are the faithful son. Will you then rebuke god? I will pray for you.
“All you evolutionists are a bunch of deceived God haters.”
Think about what you’re saying Grace2, you’re asserting that those who reject the existence of ‘person X’ are therefore ‘haters of person X’. Well, it’s a logical fallacy, as one can’t really hate, love, like, dislike, etc, what they doubt or don’t think exists in the first place. Your assertion is parallel to asserting that 10 year olds who reject the existence of Santa, the tooth fairy, goblins, leprechauns, fairies and the like and saying those who reject their existence and label them as ‘haters’. How exactly can one hate something, which they emphatically doubt the existence of? Surely you see the logically conundrum in this assertion of yours..
By your logic I can assert you’re a Santa hater simply b/c you reject his existence. See how utterly illogical it sounds?
viking
Will the intellectual slime (ERVs and agentorangex, the evolutionists) ever humble themselves and acknowledge their need for God? Will they ever turn from their rejection of the true and living God? Will they ever receive God's free offer of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ? Will they spend their eternity in Heaven or Hell? Only time will tell.
(I flagged myself)
viking
Mankind is nothing up against the vastness of the universe. Mankind is nothing up against the infinite God that created us. God has infinite understanding, infinite knowledge, and infinite wisdom. What is man's understanding, knowledge, and wisdom compared to God's? It is nothing. One day God will silence them.
Grace2,
I must gently rebuke you as a Christian brother. When you say "You are nothing." You do not seem to speak in Christian charity and love seeking to draw unbelievers closer to the grace of god through Christ.
Hi prodriver,
Without getting into the whole Science thing I notice you stated.
" The first books of the bible tell us what to do and how to behave in order to live together.
It´s all there and rejected by so heavyly clever people."
I would urge you to read Paul's letter to Gallatians in which he rebukes them for seeking to "live under the law".
Our family had the privilege of visiting this wonderful museum about a month after it opened! We loved it - everyone from my husband and I and my 16 year old to 7 year old. The garden outside was well in progress and we loved the bridges. Inside, my kids absolutely loved the "Men in White" presentation (which we saw twice) and my personal favorite was Noah's Ark. We were a month too early to see the dinosaur bones exhibit, but wouldn't hesitate to go again and would highly recommend it to all of our friends and family, if they get a chance! Talk about a place with a Godly atmosphere - peaceful and God honoring.
All you evolutionists are a bunch of deceived God haters. You are all wrong. But then try telling a blind man that light exist or a man who can't hear that sound exist. God will win over you all one day. He is a mighty big God. You are nothing. Go ahead and laugh but God will have the last laugh!
"they teach evolution, but instead of speciations and evolution occuring at a slower pace, they emphatically support a totoally scientically unsupported notion of 'super evolution' where animals evolve rapidly!"
This is more evidence Ken Ham knows absolutely nothing about science. His museum is a joke and a disgrace to our country. Ken Ham makes a living abusing children with his breathtaking stupidity. Ham is from Australia. He should go back there and stay there.
You mght be curious as what is exactly taught at this 'museum', well they teach evolution, but instead of speciations and evolution occuring at a slower pace, they emphatically support a totoally scientically unsupported notion of 'super evolution' where animals evolve rapidly!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPPnN1c0jk
I don´t know if there were any and why they are "gone" -
but I do know that I can trust the bible 100 % without any human censorship of so called wise science. I am educated, questioning and not ignorant at all, this is what God calls us to do and why he gave us a brain - but - who am I to question God because I don´t have answers for all things I do not fully understand?
If scientists would run along with the bible instead of making up models of why it can not be true from the human point of view - I wonder if for example the pest (is this an english term) would have ever occured in this bible knowing world. The first books of the bible tell us what to do and how to behave in order to live together.
It´s all there and rejected by so heavyly clever people.