Sen. John McCain endorsed on Thursday a ballot initiative in California that would overturn the recent state court ruling legalizing same-sex "marriage."
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(Photo: AP Images / LM Otero)Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., greets supporters after giving a campaign speech at the University of Nevada, Wednesday, June 25, 2008, in Las Vegas.
"I support the efforts of the people of California to recognize marriage as a unique institution between a man and a woman, just as we did in my home state of Arizona. I do not believe judges should be making these decisions," the Republican presidential candidate said in a statement, according to ProtectMarriage.com.
McCain's support for traditional marriage was welcomed by conservatives and pro-family groups especially at a time when many of them remain unsure of the Arizona senator and his stance on social issues.
But McCain is slowly winning the hearts of evangelicals and conservative leaders as polls show him head-to-head with presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama.
On Thursday, McCain met privately with several conservative leaders in Ohio to talk about social issues, including embryonic stem-cell research, judges and gay "marriage." Although McCain wasn't their first choice for the Republican nomination, some are rallying behind him against Obama.
Participants of the private meeting said the Arizona senator indicated he would take seriously their requests that he choose an anti-abortion running mate and would talk more openly about his stance supporting traditional marriage, according to The Los Angeles Times.
After that meeting, a lot of hearts were changed, said Phil Burress, who led Ohio's anti-gay-marriage ballot measure in 2004, the Times reported. "We realized that he's with us on the majority of the issues we care about."
Although McCain has opposed a federal constitutional amendment preserving traditional marriage, saying he believes states should decide the issue, McCain's announcement supporting the California Protection of Marriage initiative would indicate to many evangelicals that he's on their side when it comes to the core social issues.
"As a leader in the United States Senate and the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, Senator McCain's position will be an important factor to millions of Californians," ProtectMarriage.com chairman Ron Prentice commented. "We are honored to have the support of Senator McCain."
Although Prentice also invited Obama to endorse the ballot initiative, his wife, Michelle, delivered a speech Thursday indicating that he would most likely not hop on the traditional marriage bandwagon.
Obama will fight for equal rights for gays just as he fought to help working-class families overcome poverty, she said at a Manhattan fundraiser for the Democratic National Committee's Gay and Lesbian Leadership Council, according to The Associated Press.
McCain is continuing his more aggressive push to reach out to his party base as he is scheduled to meet with the Rev. Franklin Graham, son of evangelist Billy Graham, on Sunday. He said he also hopes to meet with influential evangelical Dr. James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family.
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The Bible says "love does not seek its own". This means love isn't about your pleasure but about the pleasure of the other.
I doubt any of the children are seeking sex. They want love, acceptance and money. My guess would be if they got what they wanted without sex they wouldn't 'want' it with you.
Reality check please!
feet, it is amazing you keep coming here to justify your sin. And to top it off, you say that pedophilia is ok, because it is love. That is sick.
Jesus spoke out against sexual immorality.
Matthew 15:18-20
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man unclean. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man unclean; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him unclean.
Mark 7:20-23
20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean. 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man unclean.
Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this; this would come from the Old Testament. As Christians today, we use both the Old and New Testaments to see Who God is, what God has done, how God feels about issues in life, and what He expects of and for us.
The word translated as sexual immorality is Porneia. This word means
1. illicit sexual intercourse
A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11
Romans 1 says even the desire of a man for a man or a woman for a woman is sin. The act of sex between two people of the same gender is also sin.
The term translated in Romans 1 as 'lust' is epiqumia in Greek. It means desire, craving, longing, desire for what is forbidden, lust.
It is even the mere desire for same gender sex that is wrong in God's eyes.
It does not matter how you feel about it. It does not matter how you justify it. God said if you do not change and turn to God, then you are not saved. If you claim you have repented and turned to God, then you need to live like it.
scits-
I love your heart.
I too grew up in a family that had no religious affiliation - unless you think drinking and partying was a religion. LOL - lots of that even to this day.
I was invited to a wonderful church many years ago as a kid and was told to read through the book of John - in the Bible. I not only read John, but I kept reading and I haven't stopped reading for the several decades!! Before I became a Christian and before the Bible reading, I was having nightmares that were leaving me traumatized and frightened; after committing my heart to Christ - no more nightmares. The Lord speaks to everyone differently. I pray you receive Him as your Lord and Saviour.
Scitz,
I actually came from a very similiar situation as you have. I grew up in a solid family, irreligious, middle class, and with all the opportunities afforded to me.
I used to think that homosexuality was a good alternative lifestyle (my uncle is gay). I don't blame you one bit for your views, because I had very similiar views as well.
I will also state that I think it's unbiblical for a Christian to judge homosexuals outside the Church.
Christ moved on my heart in my first year of university and I hope he will do the same for you.
rolln4him, Call me a Humanist if you like, I'm not much for labels, but if thats how you want to classify me, I guess thats OK. I derive my values on having grown up in a stable family and was taught to treat others as I would want them to treat me. There was no religion in my home when I was growing up.
As far as homosexuality is concerned, I say live and let live. I have a number of gay friends, very decent people I might add that I would trust with my life, and I have talked to them in depth about their sexual orientation, they all tell me about the same thing. They knew at a very young age that they were different than the other kids- they were not attracted to the opposite sex. They didn't like the feelings they were having because they were told it was wrong and that something is wrong with a person attracted to the same sex. After years of struggle, they finally accepted they are attracted to the same sex. It's not something they decided, its what they are, its how nature made them Same for me, its how I was made- a heterosexual. I knew at avery young age I was attracted to the opposite sex, not something I decided, its how I am programmed by nature.
(sickoids being people like feetxxl).
Oh man. Un-Believable. This is the problem. They throw out God's Word (except a couple of fragments to confuse real Christians), and march around inflamed with all kinds of perverse lust.
Gay-sex, lesbian-sex, animal-sex, child-sex, monkey-sex, giraff-sex, pre-maritual fornication, any kind of irreligious, perverse fornication you can think of is approved by these sick-oids.
feetxxx-
At least you're constant in your depravity unlike most in the gay agenda crowd.
You simply affirm what the gay agenda is itching to get to and that is to break down any barrier that would keep them from doing unimaginable. Gay sex, child sex, group sex, sex with animals, sex with things and the list goes on. Really all it is - is ultimate rebellion against the Lord, Almighty.
May God help you. Please, Lord
So you are saying that pedophilia is not sin and against God's Word?
the answer is the same.
feetxxx -
I'll post my question for you again, since you must have been napping or something and answered my question in delirium -
So, using your logic, if a 12 yr old boy and a 39 yr old man "love" each other and want to engage in a sexual relationship, then this would NOT be a sin?
since heterosexuals and homosexuals bond in the same spirit, whatever is a sin heterosexual bonding is a sin in homosexual bonding, and vice versa about what is not a sin.
scits -
When I say "making up your own world" implies that since you don't adhere to the Christian worldview of subjects like homosexuality, then you must derive you're values elsewhere; thus making up your own world - in essence you are also considered a Humanist as well since Truth can not be found, right?
scits -
Me too. I didn't know you weren't a Christian, because you came across as being one.
However, you face a unique situation. I'm almost certain that at one time you believed that homosexuality was a sin . If this is an "affirmative" than what made you change? If it's negative what basis did you use to see that it was OK?
rollin "therefore he's one his own to make up his own world."
not making anything up there rollin, perhaps you should read up on what an agnostic actually is.
matt-
Way to go! I couldn't of handled scits and feetxxx any better. You tha man!
LOL! I noticed feetxxx left the building. Wolves tend to run for cover when they're detected. Licking wounds, but he'll come back somewhere else to try and pick of the weak and babes in Christ -
As with scits - you've hit it on the head - not a believer (though hopefully someday) therefore he's on his own to make up his own world.
You're a great man of faith and a tremendous "warrior"!
no problem matt, i didn't make that clear to you that i am an agnostic. in your view, yes, I can see you consider it a sin, fair enough. I will say though my agnostic views are less a product of culture, more what of what i have formulated in my mind over many years and agnosticism makes sense to me, not religion as such.
Fair enough Skits, your answer is perfectly acceptable. You're not a Christian, so it can't be expected that you adhere to Christian Morality on every point. We Christians call it sin, but obviously your views are tied to the culture.
Forgive me for calling you a 'pervert' in that case, I didn't realize you weren't a Christian.
OK matt & rollin, as an agnostic I say its [homosexuality] NOT A SIN.
Didn't answer the question, scits.
matthewr1 "Rolln: Check-mate."
Yeah right, whatever, read my recent post.
"Pervert", hmmmm, interesting, I guess I never really considered myself to be a pervert.
Sorry, Scits, can't weasel your way out of that one. The question was, is it sin or not; not is it against the law or not.
You must answer: Is it SIN, ir is it not SIN.
We're not concerned whether or not it's against the laws of the country here.
rollin "So, using your logic, if a 12 yr old boy and a 39 yr old man "love" each other and want to engage in a sexual relationship, then this would NOT be a sin?"
it would be against the law, the 12 yr old is minor, and needs protection under the law as a young person. you described a poor hypothetical. Here is a better one, if the 12 yr old was actually 21, they would be consenting adults and as such, would #1. be their business- not yours, or mine, #2. I dont have a problem with it. It would not be my "cup of tea" as I am a heterosexual, but gays are programmed by nature to be attracted to same sex just as i am programmed by nature to be attracted to the opposite sex. I say live and let live.
Rolln: Check-mate.
These perverts clearly know what sin is, clearly laid out in the OT and NT, they're just playing dumb. Thus is the tactic of heretics: they know what's right and wrong as laid out in God's Word, yet they warp the Scriptures to suit their own wicked purposes.
Feet - If there's no conviction of sin, than the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be found (refer again to the 1 John 3 passage). The Scriptures make this plain. So you don't have a free ticket to sin. Don't get me wrong (because I know you'll probably try and warp my words), we do have forgiveness when we do sin, but by NO MEANS do we then have free reign in the world of indulgence.
Ooohhhh! LOL! You're trying to use the "I'm as stupid as scit is" mentality -
OK, I'll give your logic a swing -
So, using your logic, if a 12 yr old boy and a 39 yr old man "love" each other and want to engage in a sexual relationship, then this would NOT be a sin?
how can it be? it doesnt come against loving ones neighbor as oneself.......the summation of all the law.
feetxxx;
Do YOU think homosexuality is sin?
everything i have said is straight out of romans.
why is it your brand of christianity can answer none of my questions? it is without witness ,without testing, and without explanation.
feet-
You're starting to get Christianity 101 by stating that "if one follows the 3 commandments what possible sin is not covered"?
The problem is is that you have exchanged truth for a lie thus you're trying (is this is the problem with supposed Christians that think homosexuality is not sin) to make what is clearly a sin not sin.
In essence you make a much better Humanist or Universalism than a Christian and it would be safer for you too.
scits-
Playing stupid is a sin! --- LOL!!
i would amend your concept of not continuing to sin to those whom the holy spirit convicts their hearts of sin and then gives thru grace the power to turn from sin.
otherwise according to your understanding, in the last 2000 years there were no believers, because of the presence of perpetual sin...........from 2000 years of antisemitism, that culminated in the halocaust, in spite of romans 10 and 11, the genicidal slaughters over differences of belief, such as french protestants and catholics slaughtering each other over a creed, 1800 years of ethnic slavery supported by the church, 1500 years of the practice of indulgences, 1800 years of the slaughter of the saints by the church,100 years of the unfettered racism(specifically in the south, blacks could not eyeball whites, and any white person regsrdless of age could tell a black person to something and if they didnt comply there was a knock on their door that night to be dealt with as severly as to be not be seen again.
at the turn of the century if you lived in the south, in order to be a successful businessman or to be politically viable, membership was required in the klu klux klan.
and this us just the tip of the iceberg of all the travesties throughout history, all done by believers.
in my opinion it is the fool who credits himself with totally being aware of all the sin in his life, tothe point that all that has to be done is to show him and he responds with automatic repentance.
surely you are aware that the majority of sacrifices of leviticus are for unknown sin.
i have seen nothing that would indicate that believers today were any more aware their sin than the isrealites of the past.
wasnt that the reason for the cross. that man could not follow the law in regards to sin, could not not be depended on to repent..........turn from his sin. isnt grace about inspite of sin that we are unable to control, we rely on what christ did on the cross, not the believer trusting in what he can do regarding sin.
if paul in romans 7 admits of this being in his own life...............are believers to credit themselves with more?
that concepts of repeated sinning, and repentance required for salvation have nothing to do with the gosp
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.
there have been comments about the three kinds of love....philos eros and agape. agape being the love of god. all three created by god. surely it is agape being present with the other two, that validates them. it is the absence of agape, in the presence of the other 2, that allows for the possibility of sin.
you mentioned the parable of the good tree and good fruit. my understanding is that the fruit, is that fruit of the spirit of gal5.........love, joy,peace, kindness,gentleness, goodness,self-control,patience, and gentleness......which of themselves are spirit........spirit creating spirit.
the greatest of them being love. 1cor13 says that anything without love is nothing and gains nothing....
jesus commands and teachings being about love. and god himself being love.
in short a good tree is an abider in love.
if one follows the three commandments what possible sin is not covered.
jesus said we would recognize them by their fruit. sin is not about form, but about essence of spirit.
paul said we serve of and are led by the spirit, having died to the law and now being under grace.
surely if loving ones neighbor as oneself is the summation of the law and love is its fulfillment, then sin would be anything that comes against the commandment.
the question being how does homosexuality come against it?
rolin, what is a sin exactly?
Nice try, Feetxxl, your excuse might have worked with a more ignorant Christian.
Just because, we ought to love God and love our neighbours, are the two greatest commandments, doesn't mean that we now have a 'free ticket' to sin.
There are two sides of heresy on the issue: 1.the Legalists 2. the side of the Nicolaitans (cf. Rev. 2:6).
I won't spend too much time on the Legalist heresy, but the Nicolaitan heresy basically goes as this: Christ died on the Cross, He forgave my sin because I believe in His resurrection, therefore, I have a 'free ticket' to sin.
Both heresies are abominable before the Lord. Just because Christ forgave our sins, doesn't mean we can go out and commit as much sin as we please (homosexual relationships being among them). For a New Testament reference in which it clearly outlines the sinfulness of homosexuality, please refer to (e.g.) Romans 1:26-27.
Besides, you say the Law is done away with; Christ never said that, he said he came to 'fulfill the law' (cf. Matt 5:17).
Might I kindly say, you have a very poor understanding of the New Testament, and the grace of Christ - which is our righteousness. A righteousness that does not lead to sin, but to life. For sin is death and righteousness (Christ)is life.
Luke 6:43 (words of Christ):
No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit
1 John 3:9-10
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
So you see, sons of God cannot continue in filth and sinfulness, otherwise Christ has no part in us. Homosexuality is sin (as clearly outlined by the NT see e.g. Romans 1:26-27, and various other places of Scripture), therefore sons of Christ cannot continue in partaking of such abominable things.
scits -
Clarify your stance on homosexuality: Sin or No sin?
Feelxxx-
I said POINTED scripture. Something to the effect of God ordains those of all sexual orientation type scripture.
Not peripheral scripture that can be applied in general terms. I gave you pointed scripture. You give me nothing you liar. You're a fake. You're worse than an unbeliever, because you seek to deceive and mock God you heathenist crock.
its your intention to remain under the old covenant.
jesus teachings in the new are about......."40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."......"There is no commandment greater than these."............ "is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
surely, if all things have been put under christ's authority then nothing is done under the new covenat that is not done thru him and his teachings and his NAME.
its interesting that all discussion about homosexuality being a sin is about "god's law" at the exclusion of the spirit of christ, his authority, and his name.
in fact i have rarely seen any explanation given thru him.
possibly it is because of an attempt to embrace the old covenant relationship to the law.
It's really rather plain: anyone who strives to have a serious relationship with the Lord must say sin is sin: e.g. homosexual behaviour.
Now I don't think we're in the business of judging the Heathens (cf. 1 Corinthians 5:12-13), but we've gotta clean house inside the church (again, cf. 1 Co. 5:12-13).
However, I do lament the fact that our society is becoming so immoral. I do think we have a responsibility to do what we can as Christians to impact our culture too.
rollin "Are you not calling those of us that support marriage homophobes and haters?"
NO
I'll tell you what? Let you challenge me with scripture. I'll give you pointed scripture dealing with homosexuality and you give me pointed scripture that proves otherwise.
Leviticus 18:22 -
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination."
Sounds pretty plain to me.
Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "
Matthew 22:38-40
38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[a] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Mark 12:30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]There is no commandment greater than these."
Mark 12:33
To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Luke 10:27
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
and what teaching is that?
feel -
Do me a favor and stop catering to those demons in your head and take their scumming talons off your shoulder and listen up, dork.
Jesus may have "emphasized" as you say, but that doesn't trump all other teaching through scripture, dog!
scitsonga-
you said "The so-called threat to marriage, by gays, is simply a smoke screen to hide homophobia and hatred towards gays."
Are you not calling those of us that support marriage homophobes and haters?
here again it is interesting that christian groups put so much emphasis on family. but christ's emphasis was loving ones neighbor as oneself and loving those who dont love you. your neighbor being everyone else.
as i said no test and are without explanation!
what is the sin? if it is a sin how does it come against loving ones neighbor as oneself....the summation of all the law, the second greatest commadment,"there is no greater"
rollin "The name-calling ain't working anymore, you big baby! Grow up and face your sin.
"
what?, your post doesn't make sense.
scitsonga -
And the name-calling such as "hate" "homophobia" by the gay agenda is a "smokescreen" for the need to be loved and accepted.
The name-calling ain't working anymore, you big baby! Grow up and face your sin.
i find it interesting that christians are not the one group that is leading the support of gay marriage.
belief in the triune god is about spirit, fruit of the spirit, and the spirit of christ.
that is being led by the spirit(romans)............... the three commandments of love. god loved believers first. in receiving that love believers are filled with the love god which they return to him, love themselves and their neighbor. they love one another as christ loved them.................the greatest among you is your servant.
to be a believer is to love.
the essence of the spirit of god is love, joy,peace,goodness,faithfulness,kindness,patience,self-control, and gentleness. it is by this fruit that christ, said you will recognize what is of god.
those who believe in christ, christ lives in them and his healing power can be seen in them.
the overall understanding of what is of god is based on witness of spirit.
homosexuals bond in the same in the same spirt as heterosexuals. their bonding is motivated by mutual love, respect, trust,devotion and attraction. relationships that bond in the same spirt are equal to each other.
homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared toheterosexuals. they are not less a friend, attorney father, soldier, brother, administrator, neighbor, teacher etc.
this is made further eviden, in the fact that committed homosexual couples provide loving nurturing homes for raising children equal to those of heterosexual married couples
for mohler, colso,etc to interject legalities of natural law understandings, reproduction concerns. uniting organically, and the legalizing of polgamy(the issue like any issue will have to stand on its own merits) have nothing to with spirit, and resemble a relationship to the law under the old covenant of moses.
is loving ones neighbor as oneself, disenfranchizing them thru legalizing burdens that have nothing to do with spirit, for the sake of preserving a human concept of an institution?
the other dodge is the pharasetical use of "god's word" where believers take scripture and give what ever meaning that suits their belief system, the same thing the translators of the nineteenth century attempted to do when, in 1tim and 1cor they said "malebed" means homosexuality. the only problem is they have no test(1thess 5:21 test everything keep the good.) for their understanding, either in the discussion of scripture or in the discussion of what was "created" (ROMANS 1)
If you really want to protect marriage, amend the US constitution to make it a capital crime to divorce, that would go along way to protecting the institution of marriage. With the threat of death (do it the old fashion way- beheading), divorce rates would plummet and the institution of marriage protected for all times. Gays are not the threat to marriage, its divorce. The so-called threat to marriage, by gays, is simply a smoke screen to hide homophobia and hatred towards gays.
"saying that's no longer relevant to our generation"
It's the statement of the lazy. There is a movement in public education to keep from teaching hand writing because everyone is using computers now so it is "no longer relevent". Guess what...spelling is next on the list because of spell checker.
'No longer relevent' translation: we don't want to do it that way anymore and 'God is dead'. Just left over nutzism from the 60's.
Hey, I just found out that the Mac Attack has attacked our families and faith - if interested in finding out go to:
http://www.boycottmcdonalds.com/
daniel, I wholeheartedly agree, but unfortunately most moderates and liberals I know refuse to and hide behind the cloak of saying that's no longer relevant to our generation when confronted with the truths of God's Word, but like you I too will continue to challenge them in these areas. Be blessed as you serve Him, believer
I know but we have to challenge them to examine themselves......
daniel, hlerwin never did come back to that but as I converse with him, I believe his view is that Jesus is not the only way for a person to be saved there are more roads to heaven than through Christ alone, he's never shared to the best of my knowledge what those are. But as far as I'm concerned if there are other ways to be saved other than Christ and there aren't then Jesus died in vain.
"I am a Christian, but I don't think I qualify as 'your kind of Christian.' "
I am Jesus' kind of Christian as clearly defined in the Bible. There is no other kind. Read the book of Romans and see if "you are in the faith" as the Apostle Paul put it.
My entry below appears on three articles. Please don't think I am spamming my stuff. I just didn't know where I wanted to put it.
God's Word is truth (John 17:17) and Jesus is the only way to God the Father and eternal life (John 14:6).
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in who they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Roman 10:14)
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16)
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9:37)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him sould not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
"But God commendeth his love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
"...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:30-31)
"That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."(Romans 10:9)
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Romans 3:21)
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And him that is athirist come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17)
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:....And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Rev 21:1,27)
Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
hlerwin, could you please share what my kind of Christian is as opposed to what your kind of Christian is, thanks believer?
I said once before in a post that a group of us went to Russia years ago to build a day care addition to a Baptist church. One Pennsylvania woman on the trip was convinced that "Russia had no church!" Mainly because what they called "church" (the Orthodox Church) was so different from her Presbyterian church back home. She cried because the Russians were lost. At times some Christians cry, needlessly, for those who are lost. Even on this Web site... I think the Russians will make it, as will the rest of us.
I am a Christian, but I don't think I qualify as "your kind of Christian."
hlerwin, I am truly confused I thought that you are a Christian, but your last post seems to say otherwise?
believer, "your group" is a very, very large group, but it is still "your group." Can't you see that? I appreciate much of the good work Christians do, but Christians cannot apply their book's rules to everyone. Not everyone has agreed to come under the authority of Biblical scripture. That's just like a harekrishna on the street. They are commanded to convert us. But as long as I don't give that harekrisna authority over me, he has none. Nor do you.
hlerwin this isn't about "my group's rules" it is about joining God in fulfilling His Great Commission. If it wasn't for two men on Memorial Day 1971 being "busybodies" I might very well still be without Christ in my life today and destined for eternal separation from God in hell. How in the world could I not believe in evangelism!
I know your plea was heartfelt and honest, believer. But you just can't apply all of "your group's" rules to everybody else. And, no offense taken about my mother. I don't agree with everything she says.
hlerwin, agree with hlerwin's mother or agree with God and God's Word, no offense to your mother but I'll stick with God and God's Word. But I can also understand your view on this issue since you believe that Jesus Christ is not the only way, not the only truth, not the only life that one can use to come unto the Father. If I held that view probably I would not be near as intense or passionate about joining God in reaching the lost for Christ believing as the Word of God teaches that Christ is their only hope to keep them from being eternally seperated from God.
Your plea, believer, reminds me of something my mother said maybe 5 years ago. At 93 now, she is a wise woman and a woman of faith. Before the Iraq war, some American missionaries were captured in Iraq, along with some Scandinavians. On the TV news were pictures of people in Norway and in Minnesota (I think) praying for the release of the Christian missionaries. When the next news story came on, Mother looked up and said, surprising me, "You know, I've always thought missionaries were sort of buttinskis." I was amazed. "What?" I asked. "You think they are butting in somewhere?" "Yes," Mother said, "over there in the Middle East. They should just stay home once they get back." (The group was, in fact released the next day.) The lady continued, "How would we feel if those people came over here and tried to get us to change our religion? We would not like it one bit, I'll tell you." I interrupted, "But the Bible says that we should take the Gospel into all the nations on earth." Mother gave me a look and said, "Well, the Bible is just wrong about that part." I agree with my mother.
hlerwin, you profess to be a Christian and yet it appears it doesn't bother you that hundreds if not thousands of people are dying each day and are going to a Christ-less eternity in hell where they will be eternally seperated from God and all His godly attributes, no peace, no love, no joy, no contentment, and worse of all no hope that that will ever change. That thought doesn't concern you. If that's true of you then I would implore you to revisit your salvation experience because one of the key results of becoming a child of God is that we have a burden for the lost and we develop a Christ-like mindset that says like Christ we desire that none should perish but that all would be saved and have eternal life in Christ. Do you have that burden and do you believe that a person who is not genuinely saved if they die will be eternally seperated from God in hell?
To repeat my post from below: "So many of you people seem to just love to talk about hell." Surely some of the appeal of this concept is the fact that "you" will not be going there, and "those others" will be. If you think about it, how weird of us to dwell on the concept of hell, an idea that has not even been around that long. I think dwelling on "Hell" poisons one's mind.
hlerwin, your right I don't know what Jesus thinks about my church, but I do know what He thinks about people going to hell. He doesn't like it nor does He want anyone to go to hell. He proved it when He went to the cross and paid a price that only He could pay so that none would have to perish but that every person would have the opportunity to enter into a personal relationship with God through Him and spend the rest of eternity in heaven with God and all the other believers who have eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
"The more I ponder, the more I realize how finite my mind really is!"
That sounds kinda familiar......
Anyway...there really isn't much point to arguing. The problem comes in when people don't want to accept what is plainly stated in the Bible. THEY want to have a say in what they believe when being a Christian means being a "Christ one" or being like Christ. This means we trade our way of thinking for His. His way of thinking is quite clear in the Bible.
I worked (played) in radio for years. We would get phone calls from time to time wanting to know why we were off the air. I'd check my equipment but we were clearly on the air. The problem would be on their end. The Bible clearly 'transmits' all we need to know. The problem is if we receive it.
That's fine, believer. I tell you what: you go to your church, and I'll go to my church. What you and I "think" Jesus "thinks" about your church and my church cannot really be argued by our finite minds (which I just mentioned in another post). The more I ponder, the more I realize how finite my mind really is!
hlerwin, no, just the opposite but the reality is Jesus is the only solution to keeping people out of hell and He spoke more about hell than about heaven while He ministered on this earth. Plus God has commissioned His Church to proclaim His Gospel of Salvation so that all will hear and as few as possible will spend eternity in hell but rather will become one with God through Christ and spend eternity in heaven with Him.
"McCain is continuing his more aggressive push to reach out to his party base as he is scheduled to meet with the Rev. Franklin Graham, son of evangelist Billy Graham, on Sunday. He said he also hopes to meet with influential evangelical Dr. James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family"
Now McCain is hitting the right conservative people. Dobson is a well respected voice for family and moral Christian character.
I can only hope that both Graham and Dobson will agree to work with this man. It is not a good idea to encourage Christians not to vote.
Choose the man who best represents overall Christian values even given the mistakes.
That last paste is for discussion. I'm not vouching for any of the ideas.
From The Jesus Mysteries, concerning Hell:
“The more enlightened sages of the Mysteries viewed such horrors as merely stories to encourage better moral behavior. Plutarch calls the terrors of the Underworld an 'improving myth'. The Christian philosopher Origen likewise argued that the literal terrors of hell were false, but they ought to be publicized in order to scare simpler believers."
"Origen, however, was posthumously condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a heretic for his compassionate belief that all souls would eventually be redeemed. The Roman Church required all Christians to believe that some souls would suffer in hell forever, while the faithful would enjoy eternal salvation. This is the one doctrine on the afterlife which Celsus regards as distinctively Christian. He writes: 'Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishment and rewards, exceeding anything the philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous of the reward of the blessed) could have imagined.'"
And this: Plutarch (46-125AD) and the early Christians viewed hell as a symbolic place. It was only over time that Christianity became the literalistic belief system that it is now, initially all of its teachings were either Roman Mystery religion or Jewish in origin. The Valley of Hinnom (see above) was a place where sinners were actually burnt, the hell that the pagan religions believed in was a symbolic place (where those who died went) used to persuade people to behave better, and the Jews had little actual teachings on the concept of Hell. The result was that Christianity, a religion that was popular amongst the illiterate and undereducated in the Roman empire, lost its inner symbolic nature and became seen as an actual real place where sinners were punished forever, after death.
Does anyone here know when the Hebrews borrowed the idea of a "hell?" I think it came from some polytheistic neighbors, but I can't remember who they were.
So many of you people seem to just love to talk about hell. Is the idea that much of a thrill for you?
dongard, Jesus in Matthew clearly lays out how to deal with sin both between individuals as well as how the local church should deal with sin with regards to a member of the church who is refusing to deal with known sin in their life. Plus in Hebrews God tells us that if we are truly His child when we sin because of His love for us He will discipline us and if we are either willfully committing sin or living in sin and we are not being disciplined by God that means we are not a child of God. Your attempt to lay a guilt trip on Christians in order to get us to condone sinful lifestyles by using Old Testament laws is weak at best since God clearly lays out in the New Testament how to properly deal with known unconfessed sin. But the bottomline is a person may think they are getting away with their sin, but if they die without having accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord they will be not only eternally seperated from God in hell for all eternity, they will also pay the penalty for all their sins as well.
LOL hlwerin -
Me too. I was doing some yard work myself.
I didn't say you were whining, I said you were sulking. Gay community whining is a given. Ooops, I'm slipping into my other self - sorry:)
Jesus had a pattern for rebuke and love. He despised people who mocked God - like the temple scene where He (boy, do we dare say it) LOST HIS TEMPER, but yet loved sinners (all of us) that had a heart for repentance and forgiveness. The error that supposed gay "Christians" have is that they are itching to have their lives legitimized. They can't handle any sort of condemnation. Rather than succumbing to the grace of God, the fall into Satan's trip of "did God really say" mentality. Gay people often say, "until you've been in our shoes of sexual struggle, you'll never understand." Of course, everyone I know, has struggled with sex. There was a time where I'd love to have sex with as many women willing to hop in the sack with me. I can't tell you before I was a Christian how hard that was on me. But as a Christian , there's a freedom and peace that passes all understanding.
I have been doing yard work this morning and just came back. I tried to catch up with the discussion, so I could comment (at the risk of seeming to "whine"), but I don't think I will do that right now. I must say, though, that I think the last two posts by rolln4 and composer were salutary. They injected a sense of human kindness and camaradarie into our discussion. Amazing......
dongard,
Fortunately because Jesus Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for each of our sins, stoning is not required. If it were, there would be a long line of all of us who sin standing there waiting to be stoned - you see, your sin of homosexuality is no different than any sin I may have - all sins are alike in the sight of God. Although if you examine His Word you will see that He seems to especially abhor sexual sin. I think He has a good reason for that which I could write a book on. Let's put it this way though, the bottom line is He loves and cares for us as our Heavenly Father and He knows how powerful this particular sin can impact a life. He'd rather we not go that direction.
I encourage you to read the scriptures which will tell you that Jesus Christ died on a cross for the sake of all sinners - that's you and me - his death brings us hope of forgiveness here on earth and a promise of eternal life in heaven if we only believe in Him and accept Him as our Lord and Savior. It wasn't me or anyone else that said homosexuality is a sin. It was our Lord. That's what God said. I believe it, do you?
dongard and hlerwin-
Thanks for the Saturday debate "banter", but believe it or not, I do have a job to get to. I do love you (in an Agape type fashion of course). I may seem harsh, but my gay friends know that I'm really not the hate-monger my posts may portray. God bless you - truly.
The gays I know (a few are even friends - probably much to your surprise) live quite openly and will fraternize in their parades, toast at restaurants after legal victories, marry against the will of the people and the law!
Of course, Christians have never been persecuted - have they dongard. You're quick to name some atrocities done by Christians, but fail to highlight any persecution we've had to endure. I can tell you countless Christians who have been murdered, firebombed, executed, fired from their jobs, called names, spit upon and that's not even counting those OUTSIDE of the U.S. .
dongard-
Shame on you steeping as low as hlwerin and other gay folks by pulling the puppy-eyed sympathy thing. Let's use a bit of common sense here.
No sodomy law that I'm aware of in this country (use to have) had a penelty anywhere new a "death sentence"
Your theology is a bit out of whack as well: Equating sin as crime in all cases. I'm merely emphasizing that laws are based on ideology and ideology in turn is based on your FAITH.
Stop using your sympathy card. You poor gay agenda people are sooooo abused! Give me a break.
so at the end of the day, now we know. you believe that your religion's sins are crimes and those who break your sins are criminals. the only question remaining( and personally i don't think you would have a problem here) is should the church carry out the execution, or as in the past, should the church force the state to do its dirty work.
by the way, is a confession under torture required or is second hand here-say evidence enough for sentencing.
personally i really hope that this discussion was academic and saturday morning banter.
We use to have sodomy laws until just recently. Yes, even in America you could be thrown in jail for such perverse actions as Sodomy. UMMM. I wonder where that term came from. Any guess, dongard?? LOL.
dongard-
You don't have too much to worry - yet! Your 4 judges in California sure has done a lot to galvanize a sleeping church in America. We'll see how far this goes in November. But for the Christian, it is not a flesh and blood battle. It's a battle between the rulers of the spiritual world (Ephesains 6). We're simply told to stand for Truth and sometimes it requires us to be harsh with fake ingenuine crying like hlerwn's posts. At least you stand up like a man!
rollin4him
how right you are. homosexuals are in trouble. iran recently hung two young teenagers for a single night of gay sex. most of africa believes that homosexuals should be jailed and some american churches have joined with african and south american bishops. so obviously we american gays should be careful here in your christian nation.
"When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope we use. "
Joseph Stalin
Nice one brain child!
And you brainiac - It was Stalin who quoted your quote. Nice!
But I believe your research is a bit flawed. It was Stalin that quotes what I was wanting.
Good! Thanks for doing the research for me.
dongard-
Maybe in your little sphere of the world, gay rights are rolling along strong and fine. But in other parts of the being gay is still a perverse mentality. Poland had kicked out gay pride parades, Moscow government has repelled gay pride and the list goes on.
Like I said, there's not room for history lessons here. I'm just glad that the other countries around the world recognize our status as Christian. Some Muslims are somewhat baffled that the gay rights have made it this far in America, but they're not going to step up to condemn because they're hoping Christian America falls. This would make great take over from within and then their radical agenda will be exposed and Lord help the gay community then.
rollin4him
the quote you were looking for is from lenin, "a capitaist will sell you the rope to hang him." try doing a little research as you write would ya.
rollin4him
do you get out much or have a connection to the internet. Moscow just had a gay pride parade. china has a huge homosexual population with gay bars and more. hello????
rollin4him
how clever. we use christian symbols. so. and if others view us as a christian nation some how that proves we are? simple question i go down to the courthouse and stand on the steps and yell at the top of my lungs that jesus is satan. what would happen in a christian nation, and what happens in america. we are a nation of laws and no they are not based just on the bible but many sources including the french rationalists who by no means believed in your myths.
China, Russia to name a few. Don't see a gay pride parade going through these nations.
dongard -
I was wondering when you'd bite on my bait. I said other countries view us as Christian nation. To go into historical depth on this issue is way much for this forum, but I'll simply state you're wrong. Here's a few samples among millions: Laws were passed using scripture from the Bible. We take oaths of office and in courtrooms using the ....BIBLE! UMMMM! We've placed "in God we trust" on our currency. And of course I could go on and on. At least other countries know we're Christians, and they are counting on ignorant folks like you to start thinking otherwise, because then we'll be free for the taking: As a one famous Marxists once said:"Get the people to forget their roots, then I can take over that country" (very lose quote)
rollin4him
overreaching again are we. name me where in atheistic beliefs that homosexuality is wrong. and no focus on the family prop doesn't count.
By the way, gay rights is not acceptable in the Jewish orthodox, Muslim, Mormon, JW, Buddhist, Christian (Catholic and Protestant) and atheistic faiths. Yes, there are break away minorities that support gay rights, but their extreme minorities. If the gay rights start to trump religious rights to say what they want and hire who they want (which is starting to happen in Canada, UK and so called forward moving countries), then things will get really interesting.
rollin4him
America is not a christian nation, certainly not as you would define it. it is not in the constitution, it is not in our laws and christians do not have the right to dictate to americans how they should live.
rollin4him
hmmm, do the words "here i stand, i can do no other," have any meaning for you or would you have preferred that Martin Luther "stayed in the closet?"
dongard-
You say "why are you concerned that those who do not agree with you have to move" . I never said that, I said if you're not happy there's other countries to go to. You don't like the label America is Christian nation, then seek elsewhere.
hlerwin -
Ah, you're done sulking? Anyone that is living (legitimately) in America is an American. We're the best nation that exists. Not all Americans are Christian for Christians are very tolerant of this fact since the existence of America. You're free to express your faith however and can organize as you see fit (as long as you support America and intend no harm).
The debate at hand is: Is being gay good for society. Christians say no! You may live it in "private" if you so chose. But that's not what we're dealing with now - is it? The gay agenda is not satisfied with "private". The want rights!!! I say, get back in the closet Satan!
rollin4him
why are you concerned that those who do not agree with you have to move. where to you find that in the constitution?
dongard-
"sorry you can't skew the question to fit your agenda. in the entire history of the USA we have not had hundreds of millions of dead soldiers. and no not every soldier was a christian."
Agenda? Your last post was totally not making any sense. Sorry dongard. I missed it. Your history is a bit off as well. But that's another issue.
I simply addressed that we're a Christian nation. Any problem with that. You don't have to live here. Move if you don't like the label. There's others that will take you. Every country has a religion that it bases itself on, we happen to be predominantly Christian.
"...we Americans," rolln4? Who exactly would that be? I'm not native American, but my people came in the first suppy to Jamestown, Virginia. Do you include me in "we Americans?" I'm heterosexual, but not concerened with anyone else's orientation. Does that let me out of "we Americans?" I say, "God bless all nations." Does that sentiment exclude me from your group, too? How many dividing lines do you need between you and us "wolves." I can stand rebuke, especially when I consider the source.
rollin4him
sorry you can't skew the question to fit your agenda. in the entire history of the USA we have not had hundreds of millions of dead soldiers. and no not every soldier was a christian.
what i refer to is that in its seventeen hundred years of existence organized christianity, and lets be clear here, not personal faith, but the organized churches have been responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths. yes so have others. but how does a organized community defend so much mayhem and murder? even now its living members refuse to accept that their philosophy has a very checkered past.instead they and you accuse those who seek to stand for what they believe in as liars and evil.
the reason i choose to engage here is to seek a common ground with my fellow americans, as americans, so that we can all live together with our own pursuit of happiness. i do not appreciate the love me or leave it attitude of some. that is so sixties and dude, the sixties are over. move on.
dongard -
"millions have died for your god" > You're right! And they did it with honor and pride for their country. Whether you like it or not, enemies of America consider us a Christian nation. If you're not happy with that dongard, there's a few countries out their (with other types of gods) that would welcome you with open arms. Iran is always looking for a few good men. Oh, Iran and other middle east countries can sure use some gay pride parades down main street, too. Go get'em!
rollin4him
yes you have helped millions, but all to often they first must sit and suffer and listen to your creed. yes you have started countless wars, and hundreds of millions have died for your god. and yes your victims do play the victim card, because we are victims of your pride. and no we will not be silent anymore. those who preach the closet should live in one. go and be a hermit. you cry tears that those who oppose you will not be silent. but you do not practice silence yourself. we all have a right to the public square.
hlerwin -
You come on to this site for one of the following reasons:
-searching and wanting to know the Truth (Jesus) in a sincere way
- you want to confuse the "babes" in Christ
- or a combo of the above
Most that I've seen post are the latter part, but there are a few wolves out there that want to confuse the "babes" and they hate being rebuked - like you Hlerwin! Either believe and repent or get off this site and stop confusing the "babes"! Enough talk!
You can repent Hlerwin.
hlerwin -
No denying that and we Americans are proud of it. We help millions of people around the world, have hospitals, done more for the poor and homeless than any other entity around, we've fought wars to keep those ideals and God has blessed us! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! And the gay agenda spends millions doing ... what?? Promoting THEMSELVES!
Actuall, rolln4, when I read "'in private' you say! You're kidding me right? The gay agenda has been shoving their lifestyle down societies throat for the last several years. Gay pride parades, lawsuits, intimidating, name-calling, organizations, harassing the scouts and churches etc. Private?? Ha, if they truly kept their livestyle private, they'd still be in the closet! Right? Give me a break. Just another one of the gay agenda's lies and distortions that flow freely from this evil bunch of heathens," I realize that the chasm between our groups can probably not be reduced. I'm sure I have your blessing to leave this discussion, but I really don't know how to respond to sentiments such as you express in the quote above.
How about the Christian agenda? It's hardly private. And it's sure "in your face."
dongard -
Ahhh, now you're pulling the victim card. You big BABY! We're tiring of you're "poor us" mentality. Your gay agenda has victimized enough people as it is. You're mocking of God is relentless and you have no bounds for your perversions. Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand, dongard!
rollin4him, composer56
so how long after mccain is elected do you think the stoning of homosexuals should begin, or should we be burned
hlerwin -
"in private" you say! You're kidding me right? The gay agenda has been shoving their lifestyle down societies throat for the last several years. Gay pride parades, lawsuits, intimidating, name-calling, organizations, harassing the scouts and churches etc. Private?? Ha, if they truly kept their livestyle private, they'd still be in the closet! Right? Give me a break. Just another one of the gay agenda's lies and distortions that flow freely from this evil bunch of heathens.
chicago -
Were you born yesterday or something. I think all politicians to this to some degree or other:)
McCain is just playing the anti-gay crowd to get votes just the way Bush did in '04. It's pretty disgusting to think that a political official would try to get votes by standing on the necks of others.
Praise God for John McCain who is standing firm on what God's Word teaches about marriage! We may have some hope yet for America's future if he is elected - we need a Christian leader who is not afraid to say what he believes and is on the Lord's side :-)
Way to pander, McCain! As if this old-style Republican cared one bit about what people do in private.... If he has any scruples (which I think he does have), it must be very awkward for McCain to be around these anti-marriage people.
go john go. run to the right and into the ash heap of history.
Finally, McCain is doing at least a little something to encourage the voter base that can get him elected. I'm pleased to see it, although he had my vote anyway - admittedly, however, it is a vote against the ultra-liberal policies of the Democratic party, regardless of its candidate, rather than a strong ballot for this representative of the GOP. However: while I believe it is our responsibility before God to be involved in the governing of our society, at all levels, electing a president or a party is not the answer to our problems. Repentance on behalf of those who claim to follow Jesus Christ and a return to the Biblical morals and values on which this country was founded is. Only a God-ordained, Spirit-led true revival will ultimately make a difference in this country - we are under the righteous judgment of a Holy God. Just like the cartoons say - "Repent, for the end is near." Our glorious King approaches - but the apostate church is turning its head and looking elsewhere for deliverance. Lord God, rend the heavens and come down!