The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)'s highest governing body voted Friday in favor of a proposal that would allow for the ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians.
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(Photo: Danny Bolin / PCUSA)Commissioners and advisory delegates lined up behind Katherine Boswell, a youth advisory delegate from Western New York Presbytery, to speak during discussion of the Committee on Church Orders and Ministry report on Thursday.
The 218th General Assembly, meeting in San Jose, Calif., this week, voted 380-325 to send the overture – that would delete the requirement that clergy live in "fidelity within the covenant of marriage between and a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness" – to the denomination's 173 presbyteries for approval.
Adding to the blow to conservatives, the Assembly also adopted a supplementary authoritative interpretation of the PC(USA) constitution that would allow gay and lesbian candidates for ordination to conscientiously object the current "fidelity and chastity" standard and the local ordaining body to discern whether the declared objection is disqualifying.
After decades of debate on gay clergy, commissioners and delegates at the meeting continued to argue on both sides, but the debate this year was shorter than in previous years, according to the Presbyterian news service from the General Assembly.
Approving the proposal of amending the PC(USA)'s constitution would "destabilize the denomination, obliterate trust and reduce funding for the church. Don’t send a shock wave through the church," said the Rev. William Stepp of Tropical Florida Presbytery, who opposed the drop on the gay clergy ban.
The PC(USA) "needs a continuing strong witness to biblical standards for sexuality," he added, according to the news service.
But with discussion on ordination standards having gone on for 30 years, the Rev. Susan Fisher of Pacific Presbytery felt "compelled" to advance the amendment to the presbyteries to "let the wider church decide if now is the time” to change the standards.
The Rev. Dan Holloway of Providence Presbytery, who moderated the Assembly Committee on Church Orders and Ministries that brought the recommendation to the Assembly, stressed that the Assembly's vote has not changed the denomination's constitution. But with heated debates expected across the denomination as presbyteries decide whether to approve the proposed amendment – a process that could take up to a year – Holloway urged for "gracious and loving and welcoming" conversations "since we are not all of one mind."
Pleading for unity, outgoing General Assembly Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick said, "There are people who are gay and lesbian who long passionately to be included. There are others who believe strongly, not that they don’t love them, but that standards must be upheld. What is essential is the spirit of unity as we go forward to a new stage in the process.”
Also on Friday, the Assembly approved a new authoritative interpretation of the Book of Order - which contains Rules of Discipline for the PC(USA) - declaring that interpretive statements related to sexual standards for ordination that predate the adoption of the "fidelity and chastity" requirement in 1996 “have no further force or effect," as reported by the Assembly news service.
The "fidelity and chastity" requirement had replaced language prohibiting non-celibate gays and lesbians from ministry.
This year's proposed new language requires ministers to "pledge themselves to live lives obedient to Jesus Christ the Head of the Church, striving to follow where he leads through the witness of the Scriptures, and to understand the Scriptures through the instruction of the Confessions. In so doing, they declare their fidelity to the standards of the Church." Continue >>
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GRIN :)
In a pinch like that, wbmoore, I can really make the grand gesture.
how biggie of you hlerwin
You have my blessing as you leave. Go and find a church where everybody thinks just like you.
Ok, let's make this as simple as posssible. Homosexuals should have there own churches, and not destroy what is already in place. I would not try and make changes in their home, why come into mine??Homosexuality is a sin. Sin separates us from God. right?
We are either of the Father's world or man's world, right? I don't want a minister ordained or otherwise leading me and my family as long as he is separated from God because of his or her's sins. It could be homosexuality, sexual affairs, embezzlement or a list of other possible sins. God is my Savior and Father in Heaven. A minister leads God's flock on earth, but they can't do a good job if they are separated from God in sin. How hard is this to figure out people. First you get a lost minister, then the flock becomes confused and lost and a church is gone forever. My family will leave the presbytery if they approve this later in the year. Thanks and God Bless.
hlerwin, the minds of God and those who deny his Christ will never ever and I MEAN NEVER will come to terms, they will never agree never ever be at peace with one another. God is Holy and that is even something we cannot even grasp fully because it is so far above us like a molecule to a mountain! So there ya go, fair speeches and words cannot reconcile anything man to God. But God can reconcile man to himself!!! Its the way it is, we cannot please God with a mountain of gold and jewels, or with good deeds, or anything else. Only one thing pure and Holy can Reconcile us to God the Father and that is his Holy Son Jesus. His blood covers our sins , he is our Justification or total Payment to the Father. And that by only Faith. Just have to believe you are indeed a sinner that needs to be reconciled to God and that Jesus paid the price. Easy.
Others dont love God and will do anything to rebel and show there contempt for God. The Saved will do anything God asks them to, and returns his Love. 2 sides, one winner so to speak. You have to choose as does lina what side you will be on.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
You are too kind, as "they" say, believer, to thank me for remarks, especially if they have a few doses of vitriol in them. I'll go look and see what I could have said that you would thank for.
hlerwin, I wholeheartedly agree we do need to listen to her concerns as she is truly a product of the postmodernistic world we live in. But your several references to her as an "acceptable Christian" sounded as if you were saying you believed she was oee so thanks for clearing that up. Also, thanks for your VBS comment as well.
No, I certainly do not think lina claims to be a Christian. Still, I think Christians need to consider her "complaints" seriously. lina is not alone.
hlerwin, lina is not a Christian and in fact she has claimed just the opposite and what I think she means by privatizing God is to simply keep Him and anything associated with Him behind closed doors and not out in the public. But if you consider her a Christian I'd really be interested in hearing what you define as a Christian?
Unless lina wants to take the trouble to defend that remark (which I doubt, since she seems long gone...), I'll never know what "privatizing" God could possibly mean.
You know, that part is strange to me, too. Not sure what lina meant.....
hlerwin quoting lina:
"Consequently, not only do I find religious belief delusional, but harmful. That's why it should be privatized."
"Let's just take God out of the equation and privatizing him."
yaaa! lets privatize God!! ummm can someone explain to me what that means exactly??
Well, two responses so far, one considered and reasonable and one slightly crazy....
lol, hlerwin i dont think lina ever made the claim of Jesus as her Lord!
Its simply a speech she cut and pasted here, she would make stalin and mao and the rest of the despots very Proud! its very reminescent of the whole communist propaganda machine. I say we give fidel castro a twenty one gun salute! (Preferably he is in front of it) But Justice isnt something the propagandists Love, they dismiss it for there form of control, eliminating all who stand in there way, controling the weak minded and using anyone to gain power. The ultimate game for communists is control so they can have more power!