Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Society|Tue, Feb. 24 2009 08:19 AM EST

U.S. Supreme Court Will Decide Fate of Mojave Desert Cross

By Katherine T. Phan|Christian Post Reporter

The U.S. Supreme Court agreed on Monday to hear a case involving a cross erected in California's Mojave desert to honor war veterans.

The nation's top Court will review a federal appeals court ruling that ordered the removal of the cross and rejected a move by Congress to transfer the ownership of the land upon which the cross sits to a private party.

"This is a critical case that will once again put the spotlight on the constitutionality of religious displays and the proper role of the government and its actions," said Jay Sekulow, chief counsel of the American Center for Law and Justice, which will file an amicus brief supporting the government's position.

"The fact is that the land transfer in this case is appropriate and constitutional. There's nothing wrong with the government transferring property containing symbols with religious significance to private parties."

The Latin cross has been atop land on the Mojave National Preserve, located on the California-Nevada border near Las Vegas, for over 70 years.

The Veterans of Foreign Wars erected the cross in 1934 as a memorial for veterans of World War I. The group originally owned the land on which the memorial sits but had donated it to the government.

A legal challenge by the American Civil Liberties Union led to a federal district court ruling in 2002 that declared the cross a violation of the Establishment Clause.

Congress directed the Department of the Interior to exchange the land on which the cross sits in exchange for five acres of land from VFW.

But the move was ruled unconstitutional by the Ninth Circuit, which ordered the monument and cross dismantled instead.

The fate of the cross, which has been covered in a plywood box since 2002, now rests with the Supreme Court.

"It is bad enough to say that the veterans’ memorial is unconstitutional, but it is outrageous to say that the government cannot give the monument back to the people who spilled their blood and put it there in the first place," said Kelly Shackelford of Liberty Legal Institute, which filed an amicus brief on behalf of VFW and other veterans groups.

The brief filed by LLI states, "There could be few if any symbols in Western military heritage more appropriate to honor exemplary service and the giving of one’s life to save another than a cross, a universal symbol of beneficent sacrifice."

Both Liberty Legal and ACLJ are also involved in a related case, Summum v. Pleasant Grove, which also deals with donated monuments on public property.

The ACLJ appeared before the Supreme Court in November 2008, asking justices to overturn an appellate ruling that ordered Pleasant Grove City to accept and display a monument from a self-described church called Summum because the city displays a Ten Commandments monument donated by the Fraternal Order of Eagles.

A decision in that case could come at any time from the Supreme Court.

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  • Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    TLChild »
    Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:24 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

    Alockslee,

    I do not know if you flagged your own comment because of a typo. However, if you are not aware, you can delete your comments once you are logged in. All you have to do is click the "delete". Therefore, if you did not know, I hope that this is helpful.
    -----------------------------------
    In Response: the delete button doesn't work. It is not highlighted.

    TFR

  • Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alockslee,

    I do not know if you flagged your own comment because of a typo. However, if you are not aware, you can delete your comments once you are logged in. All you have to do is click the "delete". Therefore, if you did not know, I hope that this is helpful.

  • Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Noticed a typo in the first version of this post. This is the corrected version.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    amaranth » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:05 am Al, It's not an Establishment Clause issue because no LAW was written.

    NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAS BEEN DONE. THEREFORE, YOUR ARGUMENT IS BASELESS AND INCORRECT.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: amaranth, lets go through this again since you can't seem to understand the difference from a person doing something privately and publicly.

    1. did the city council say prayers to Jesus during the Official Meeting? YES
    2. Were the members acting in private? NO, or in public while conducting the Official City Council Meeting? YES
    3.Did the prayer they said in the name of Jesus incorporate any other religions or any other deities from those religions? NO, it promoted only christianity.
    4. Does the Establishment Clause, in part forbid Promoting religion? YES
    Now read this:
    The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit >>>>> 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. <<<<<

    [http://www.answers.com/topic/establishment-clause#], same site as you posted.

    Go back and read #3 and notice once again that by praying to Jesus and excluding all other religions it also is a violation of the EC.

    Another question using your site, what was the SECULAR purpose of the prayer? Since secular is
    1.not pertaining to or connected with religion,
    2.concerned with nonreligious subjects,
    3.of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal.

    What was the Lodi City council's SECULAR purpose for their prayers to Jesus and the recent passage of a law allowing them to continue the practice for? You did know they recently passed a law to continue the practice of praying at the meetings? Of course you did and they did it prior to your posting this comment where you stated no law existed!!

    So, oh brilliant legal researcher and fundie scholar tell us all how this is not a violation of the EC.

    Eventually you will learn that when I comment on a topic I am correct, especially when the topic revolves around a legal issue.
    TFR

  • Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:05 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    It's not an Establishment Clause issue because no LAW was written. It is a violation of the first ammendment rights of the individual not being heard. It is a misuse of power on the part of the city council members. They should be prosecuted for intimidation and harassment.

    However, no part of that scenario has happened anywhere - except when they tell you that you have no right to say a prayer on your own. According to you, if I was on the city council and prayed silently at my seat, that would be a violation of the Establishment Clause. I am disagreeing with you and your interpretation.

    Quote from a law dictionary taken from this site: http://www.answers.com/topic/establishment-clause#

    "That provision in the First Amendment of the Federal Constitution and made applicable to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment prohibiting the enactment of laws respecting "the establishment of religion." The Supreme Court has stated that the establishment clause "means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. . . . No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion."

    NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAS BEEN DONE. THEREFORE, YOUR ARGUMENT IS BASELESS AND INCORRECT.

  • Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Here is another example of a person praying at a city council meeting.

    The newly elected mayor of Broken Horn Texas, Alan Akbar, a practicing moslem opens the city council meeting with a prayer stating that only allah is god and that there are no other gods and that all other religions are false.

    As a resident of the city attending the council meeting, you hear this and it happens each and every time at the start of the council meetings for 6 months.

    You speak with the mayor and he tells you it is the same prayer he says every day and at his mosque on Sundays.

    He tells you he has a 1st Amendment right to practice his religion and under Freedom of Speech he can prayer anyway, at any place and at any time he wants.

    He tells you that if you don't like it don't listen to it and you can come to the meeting after he has open and the prayer has taken place.

    You want to have other people say prayers too but the City Council have all converted to Islam and now won't allow it or listen to your requests.

    The mayor and the city council have told the people at the mosque what you said and they now all attend and anytime you bring up the request you are interrupted and and now your business is being picketed and you are getting hate mail, called names and people are treating like a criminal because you protested their prayers.

    Is this a violation of the Establishment Clause and why?
    Does the mayor and the city council have the power to dictate what can be said at a council meeting and you want the prayers stopped because your religion says that they are wrong, that their god is not the true God and yours is.

    Lets see if anyone can discuss this rationally and support their position using only the facts, the case law and stick to the questions posed in this post.
    TFR

  • Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    In Engel Et Al. V. Vitale Et Al. (1962, Murray v. Curlett
    "School Prayer" - 1963 and Abington Township School District v. Schempp "Bible reading in school" - 1963

    All three SCOTUS decisions dealt with prayer ina public venue, schools in particular.

    The last case should be important with regard to the recent decision of the Texas School Board allowing christianity to be taught in school.

    Hope that help provide readers here with enough case law to show that prayer directed from a government entity and by persons engaged in those capacities while carrying out their duties are forbidden from doing so under the conditions given in the rulings.

    TFR

  • Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    amaranth » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:22 pm Al, You brought up people attacking other people based on their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation and the hiring practices of private institutions as "evidence" of the government persecuting people for their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. That is what I was refuting when I said individual actions do not represent the motives of the government.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Again the issue at hand here since you can't grasp it is "The Establishment Clause", now focus on that.

    When an individual acting in an official capacity such as during a city council meeting, they are no longer acting as just a private citizen but instead acting in the capacity of the government.

    When engaged in such activity, if they pray in such capacity they are in violation of the Establishment Clause.

    It is really simple, if they promote a religion which is what they are doing if they while engaged in an official capacity such as mayor or council person then they violate the law per se.

    If the same person prays individually in private and not while engaged in a public capacity then they are not in violation. Do you see the difference? One is a public action while representing the government and one is a private matter.

    Certainly you can recognize the difference. When responding please indicate that you can recognize the difference in the examples I have given you.

    The 1st Amendment only covers private action in this regard and you need to recognize where and when it applies. If the issue is one involving a public entity then you examine the issue under the The Establishment Clause and apply the Lemon Test.

    TFR

  • Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:22 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    You brought up people attacking other people based on their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation and the hiring practices of private institutions as "evidence" of the government persecuting people for their race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. That is what I was refuting when I said individual actions do not represent the motives of the government.

    Here is the actual text of the First Amendment - since you seem a bit confused.

    "Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    Please read this again and realize that a person (whether a government employee or representative or not) saying a prayer does NOT constitute "making a LAW respecting an establishment of religion."

    Please also note that, by you telling someone that they have no right to express their beliefs (in verbal form, in art form (which includes masonry, etc), you ARE violating the 1st amendment rights of your fellow citizens by "prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Maybe it's time to re-read those law books you love so much.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 5

    amaranth, you are stuck on establishing as the only portion of the Establishment Clause, keep reading it over and over til you get to the part about PROMOTING a religion.
    The Establishment Clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose. If it does the LEMON TEST is applied to determine if there has been a violation.

    The clause itself was seen as a reaction to the Church of England, established as the official church of England and some of the colonies, during the colonial era.

    Oh wow look at that Separation of Church and State and America from England, just imagine that no entanglement or involvement of any government agency with religion whatsoever!!! It applies to the States , Counties and Cities under the 14th Amendment, again wow what a concept.

    TFR

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    amaranth » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:32 pm Al, How is an individual's behavior representative of the government?
    -------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: an individual acting in an official capacity such as a Mayor or Councilperson during an official city meeting where they carry out business in furtherance of their capacity and duties as such.

    Really simple isn't it!


    TFR

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:32 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    Yes, telling someone that they are only free to pray or talk about their faith inside the confines of their homes or places of worship IS a direct infringement on the right of freedom of religious expression and IS the imposition of atheistic views upon people of different theologies. Therefore, doing that IS establishing the anti-God stance of a minority group of citizens on the majority of citizens that disagree. How is that fair? If only 15% claim to be some version of "Nones," how do you condone that 15% telling the other 85% what they can and cannot do or say?

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:32 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    How is an individual's behavior representative of the government? How does one person deciding to dislike someone or lash out against someone - for any reason - reflect the intentions of the government? How does a private institution's hiring practice reflect the motives of the government?

    I am not mistaken. I did take and pass a US History class. Thank you for stooping (again) to personal attacks. Guess what? Someone disagreeing with you does NOT mean that they're wrong and it doesn't mean that they're stupid.

    If the Establishment Clause was meant to be interpreted as being "Separation of Church and State" - as you claim - they would've written that language in. They also wouldn't have gone on to allow designers and architects of government buildings or monuments to put religious-themes on these things (which the people did out of personal conviction - not governmental mandate) as it would've violated what they had just penned into law. They did allow this to happen. Why? Because that's NOT how they intended it to be interpreted. The US government does not - in any way, shape or form - run a church, temple or mosque. It does not oversee the dealings of such institutions. It did not help to revise any of the sacred texts of any religion. It does not penalize people for their choice in faith or their choice to not have one.

    All 12 of the schools I attended (like every other one I know of) taught about every religion just as you specified that they should. Imagine that. Every major religion was identified, major tenets of that religion were explained. That was it. There was no placing of one above the other. They were each given equal class time. Therefore, the Establishment Clause was NOT violated.

    Again, prayer does NOT "establish" any religion. And, again, no one is required to participate. If I went to a City Council meeting (as a Christian) and one of the members was a Satanist and decided that he would give a Satanic prayer before the commencement of the meeting, I would not feel as though he just forced me to join his religion. Nor would I feel that the entire council just established Satan as the "god" of the land. I would be aware (as a rational human being) that someone got up and expressed the belief they have every right to have. Just because I disagree does NOT mean that I have been wronged. That is where you are not grasping the distinction. "Promotion" (even when unintentional) does NOT equal "establishment." These words describe two very distinct actions. One is most often benign, while the other generally carries a consequence.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    amaranth » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:58 pm Al, No one is persecuted by the government in our country for their choice in religion or lack of one. No one is asked to identify their religion as a prerequisite for a government job. No one is denied their rights simply because they subscribe to one religion or another or none. You Establishment Clause argument is, therefore, unfounded. Hope you had a great weekend. Take care.
    -------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Really? Guess all the discussion about LGBT Community, same sex marriage, hate crimes legislation, discrimination by religious institutions on hiring practices, etc., really don't ring a bell with you as examples refuting your last point here?

    Just curious since you seem to think nothing is currently on going to possibly provide an example of the factual reality that you just might be wrong.

    TFR

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    PLEASE EXCUSE THE REPOST I NOTICED A TYPO THAT SPELL CHECK DIDN"T CATCH.

    amaranth » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:19 pm Once again, you confuse the issue of Establishment Clause with your simple desire to see all symbols and expression of religion eradicated from our society completely. Please stop trying to say that you stand for upholdong the constitution when all of your arguments are FOR infringing on the beliefs and rights of others.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: No you are wrong. The Establishment Clause (EC) was enacted to insure a Separation of Church and State which the founding fathers all agreed was necessary since they had endured the Church/State under English rule and sought to prevent the same from occuring here.

    It is amazing to read how many times you misstate historical fact and even after I have reminded you repeatedly continue to act as if history somehow changed.

    Did you take and pass a history class that actually provided you with the true history of the US or not?

    The confusion is on your end, provide some secular history that supports your position and please be sure it comes from a secualr source not some revisionist site that hasn't a clue about the real facts and is unable to even accept the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as written and explained by the men who wrote it.

    TFR

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    amaranth » Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:58 pm
    -------------------------------------------------
    In Response to your posts lets take them one at a time.

    1. NDOP - Simple Separation of Church and State. Praying endorses and/or promotes a religion, therefore any religious activity by a govermental entity is a violation of the Esablishment Clause.
    2. Praying at Council Meetings - Praying once again by a governmental entity, council member during a public meeting is endorsing and promoting a religion, please see the above #1 for reasons;
    3.Discussion alone of comparative religions taking all religions together would be more acceptable, provided that one religion was not used as the most important, called or held to be better than another and that the instuctor made it a point to insure no student went away with any ideas that any religion is better than no religion; I can expound further but for now this will sufffice;
    4.Id- you obviously have forgotten that ID and creationism had a chance to prove it was science and failed. The arguments for ID and creationism which the court found were nothing but religion, lacked ANY scientific basis and were simply religion packaged to appear to be science and therfore not science has already been decided, no further discussion on this is necessary. The court ruled just accept it;
    5.Religious messages on public buildings promote and specify by existence of belief in a deity or otherwise religious belief which is forbidden under the resons given in #1

    Thanks again for the oppotunity to address the issues you feel are not violations and allowing me to set you straight that each of them are.

    TFR

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:58 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    In case you failed to see the refutations I gave already, here you are. Again.

    Pretty much every religion prays to some deity or another. So, saying that the National Day of Prayer violates the establishment clause would mean that the government was establishing almost every religion as a main religion and requiring people to join them. Wow. That's pretty interesting. I would imagine that would be a pretty hard feat to accomplish. Especially considering that the day itself is not something that people are required to observe in any way, shape or form.

    Praying before a council meeting is not establishing a religion as no one is forced to participate. Also, most religions call their deity "God." So, technically, all religious persons could be represented in that saying of a prayer - which is generally why none of them complain. Only the atheists - who can leave the room or ignore the act - ever complain. Again, no one is forced to participate in the prayer.

    Teaching about Christianity in schools is not establishing religion because schools teach about all the major religions. It is a matter of educating students on the basic tenets of each major faith. It does not promote one religion over another or force anyone to participate in any specific religion.

    ID is a scientific theory that has proponents from ALL faiths - including some atheists and agnostics. So, that does not promote any specific religion or require anyone to join one.

    Religious messages on public buildings do not force anyone to join a specific religion and most of the major religions hold certain truths across the board. It does not impose anything - and these things were usually done by the architects who designed the buildings, anyway. The government didn't mandate it.

    Again, most major religions refer to their deity as "God." The word "God" on buildings, documents or currency does not promote any specific religion over another nor does the word itself require anyone to join a religion.

    No one is persecuted by the government in our country for their choice in religion or lack of one. No one is asked to identify their religion as a prerequisite for a government job. No one is denied their rights simply because they subscribe to one religion or another or none. You Establishment Clause argument is, therefore, unfounded. Hope you had a great weekend. Take care.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:57 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    I have given you the refutations you have requested and you did not respond to them. Where have you ever asked a question that I did not answer? Putting a cross in the desert to honor the lives given in defense of freedom does NOT force any religion on anyone!! Get over yourself and your self-righteous attempts to strip others of their rights because you simply don't agree with them.

    Again, Congress came up with a compromise to transfer the land back to private ownership to acquiesce to pressure from the anti-religious groups that brought this ridiculous charge forth. Those people REFUSED to allow the compromise. By doing this, they ARE infringing on the rights of others to honor the fallen the way they have chosen to do so.

    Not allowing anyone to publicly acknowledge their beliefs and forcing them to practice or profess their beliefs - whatever they are - in hiding IS the same as what is happening in China. I was not personally attacking you. I was saying that you might be happier there since they already agree with you about this. Enforcing the laws in a way that was NOT originally intended and in a way that severely infringes on people's rights, is NOT a concern for lawful justice. It is an attempt to silence those you don't agree with and that you don't want to hear.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    amaranth »Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:19 pm Al, Please stop trying to say that you stand for upholdong the constitution when all of your arguments are FOR infringing on the beliefs and rights of others.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: It seems to be you and some others here that have the problem accepting the fact of the Establishment Clause and ignore what it means. As to the reason for the removal of the religious icon regardless of location is that it is just like any other violation of the law, it is a violation and since the government has to be told and a court has to be involved since they won't adhere to the law it needs to be done. As to your attitude about me being here, I don't need to leave, I was born here, I am an American and I want the Constitution enforced against the continuing violations by the f&e squad and they be made to stop forcing their religion upon the United States of America. I want the fundamentalists and evangelicals to be made to follow the law just like the rest of us who follow the law. Do you have a problem with enforcing the law? It certainly is a problem for you since you constantly are engaging in personal attacks and not arguing the facts. Argue the facts, put up the case law, show how it applies, go ahead and make your argument see how you do against me. You already know you can't produce an argument, you can't support your position, you can't even be honest enough to respond to the questions I keep asking that you refuse to answer.

    Where are your arguments and supporting facts from valid sources and not some f&e pulpit puppet, from case law,from the Constitution itself? You just say no and nothing else, put up the sections and the factual proof for once. Then again you know it doesn't exist, and you can only stay in the state of denial but you know that. can you admit to it for once?

    Try being honest for once in your life, you know I am completely correct and you have nothing to back up your position as you haven't put up one single valid secular citation, nothing and it must gnaw on you every minute of every day and be such a constant problem for you and those like you otherwise you wouldn't react in the way you do.

    Try for once arguing the facts and stop with the personal attacks as it only proves that you have nothing else to put forth otherwise you would have already posted it, but by attacking me personally you simply prove each time I am right and have always been right and that you as always are wrong.

    TFR

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:19 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    Once again, you confuse the issue of Establishment Clause with your simple desire to see all symbols and expression of religion eradicated from our society completely. Please stop trying to say that you stand for upholdong the constitution when all of your arguments are FOR infringing on the beliefs and rights of others.

    How does a cross in the middle of the desert impose religion on anyone? How does a cross in the middle of the desert demand that someone join that religion? How does a cross erected by a private group infringe on anything at all? It doesn't do any of those things.

    Congress was willing to compromise and transfer ownership back to a private company or group (such as the one that originally erected it)and yet the court is blocking this from happening and saying that it needs to be dismantled. THAT would be directly infringing on the rights of the people who decided to erect it to honor the soldiers who DIED defending YOUR right to be ignorant!!

    If you believe so strongly in no one being able to express religious views of any kind in any medium, why don't you just move to some random communist country where religion isn't allowed. Maybe you can go to China and join them as they persecute Christians and burn down their houses for the horrible violation of merely speaking the name of Christ in public or owning a Bible. They would love you and your rhetoric there.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    DelightntheLord » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:30 pm This cross is in the middle of the freaking desert! Why must it be covered by a ply-wood box? The veteran's cross is a threat to no one. These veterans who died for our freedom must be rolling over in the graves! Shame on the Court system in this Country and double shame on the ACLU!
    --------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: So are you saying IGNORE the Constitution because this christian symbol fits with your beliefs?

    By your statements you admit that the cross in within the US boarders so the Constitution which you rely upon particularly the 1st Amendment clearly covers the issue so if the Constitution is to be suspended in that section of the US then and doesn't bother you, then suspending your ability to your religious beliefs shouldn't either.

    You have no problem with your religion represented here but no one else can have theirs represented can they?

    The Buddhists tried and were denied in 1999, but it perfectly alright for your religion to have it's symbol up and everyone else can just go away which is exactly what your saying.

    The law is quite clear it must be equally applied and everyone is allowed to be represented which the cross does not. If the cross were inverted would you be in favor of it remaining? Because that would be just a monument wouldn't it, and since the argument is that it has been up for so long it should stay. The problem is that the original structure was modified so it is a newly erected metal cross and not the wooden one that is the historical one and that one is long gone.

    So since the current cross is new and not historical and that is your argument then why keep the new one?
    TFR

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    muggleborn, the portion of the 1st Amendment you bring up is inclusive with the mentioning or citing the 1st Amendment.

    One's ability to the free exercise of religion means that an "individual" may exercise their free expression in accordance with the 1st Amendment. An individual's person expression also must not infringe on another person's rights or exercise of their beliefs as well.

    You don't seem to express an understanding that you may not in your expression violate the rights of another person.

    Would you mind covering that situation and explain how your expression and/or practice of your beliefs do not infringe on another person who holds beliefs in a religion other than christianity or maybe doesn't have any religious beliefs?

    I am asking you to first tell me that you understand my post, then please tell me how you practice your religion and not infringe on others.

    TFR

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    The Supreme Court in Lemon set forth the following test for evaluating alleged Establishment Clause violations. To survive the "Lemon test," the government conduct in question (1) must have a secular purpose, (2) must have a principal or primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion, and (3) must not foster an excessive government entanglement with religion. Lemon, 403 U.S. at 612-13.

    Take a look at the three prong test and apply it to the current cross in Mohave. Please remember that the cross existing now on the site is white painted metal, erected and maintained by the government and according to Sekalow is a "religious symbol.

    So, following Sekalow's admissions in this case, the facts are before the court as follows:

    1. A universally recognized religious symbol owned and maintained by the US Government exists in the Mohave;

    2. That the monument MUST have a secular purpose;

    3. Must have as its principal or primary effect that neither advances nor inhibits religion;

    4. That the monument existence must not foster an excessive government entanglement with religion;

    5. That if any of the prongs of the Lemon Test are found to be violated by the continuing existence of the cross then the court must rule to have it(the cross) removed and either replace the monument with a secular one or to simply remove it entirely.

    Hope that simplifies the issue the court is faced with in deciding the issue.

    TFR

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:30 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    As a Southern Californian who has driven past this cross numerous times on my travels to Nevada, it is in the middle of nowhere. There is nothing around it. I am sure that the offended person didn't want to see a Christian symbol on their way to an alcohol fueled weekend of strippers, one night stands, and gambling.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Daniel Paul,
    >> OH, MY!!! MuggleBorn and I agree on something.... :) <<

    I tend to agree with you on most (if not all) things you've posted about. Can you please tell me "exactly" what we disagree on?

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "but stop trying to remove historical monuments ... and if it was put up YESTERDAY and UNCONTESTED ... it's historical."

    OH, MY!!! MuggleBorn and I agree on something.... :)

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:20 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    kenbriggs said,
    >> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is part of our constitution. <<

    ... "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (Dont ya love how they omit that part :^))

    That means Congress should not be able to make a law prohibiting religion anywhere that it's been previously accepted. So any national monument standing (including those inherent to our religous beliefs) is part of our cultural heritage and history.

    Let opponents of God and country argue all they want about new monuments ... including those that would bash our Christian heritage, but stop trying to remove historical monuments ... and if it was put up YESTERDAY and UNCONTESTED ... it's historical.

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:16 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Believer, crazy stuff going on...this story was linked by the recent 9th Circus Court of Appeals allowing our children to involve themselves in violent video games in the face of studies showing that exposure to such causes children to become more aggressive and violent. The voluntary rating system for these games are largely ignored by store clerks at the point of sale and it is our govt. position not to limit the "freedom of speech" to "control" a child's mind. I'm sure the next step in that action will be to allow our children to have full, unrestricted access to porn as a free speech issue. Erecting a Cross to honor Veterans in the middle of the desert is such a threat they must cover it with a ply wood box but our children can involve themselves in harmful and debasing pastimes.

    I'm not a conspiracy nut but these courts ruling as they do show me a dilberateness to breakdown our society, eliminating any Godly values in favor of freely exposing us to every kind of debauchery known to mankind.
    Come quickly Lord Jesus!

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:18 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

    delight, aren't liberals and secularists amazing, a cross in the desert is a threat, but allowing for same-sex marriage is not!

  • Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:28 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    America is not a theocracy. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is part of our constitution. People who would rather live in a theocracy should move to Iran.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:30 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    This cross is in the middle of the freaking desert! Why must it be covered by a ply-wood box? The veteran's cross is a threat to no one. These veterans who died for our freedom must be rolling over in the graves! Shame on the Court system in this Country and double shame on the ACLU!

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:46 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    I think it is a sad day when the issue of something that remotely has a religious connotation and was originally set to honors sacrifices would bring the craazies out of the woodwork. Who cares so much to make a stink over something like this...has someone been assigned as the constitutional police to the point that it give grief to freedom loving people everywhere? America was and is the standard that most of the world looks to and this reverence for anything sacred is now to be a shameful thing has made us all look like sinister people when just a handful of loud talking people make a stink over something so trivial in the lartge scheme of things.
    Shame on you ...for disrupting the natural freedoms that the rest of us have lived by without any problems up until political correctness has begun to destroy our basic freedoms and country.

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 2

    Ken-why not go live in China where atheism is proudly upheld as government law. We are a nation of freedoms, and if some have chosen to display that freedom by erecting a cross, (75 years ago) to honor those who have died to allow us that freedom, what's the problem? No problem for 70 years, until now, when a bunch of bored, liberal lawyers who had nothing better to do than to attack any Christan symbol put anywhere. What's next? Remove all the crosses at Arlington Cemetary?
    I am not, personally, a man of symbols-the cross as a symbol if Christianity is about walk, not picture. rather than putting crosses everywhere, why not christians atually taking up their cross and following Christ, as we are commanded? Instead we put them all over the place, which is actually against the Bible, the cross being used as a symbol of what we believe, and we refust to take up the cross and die daily for the cause of Christ who died for us.
    However, as a generally-understood symbol of sacrifice, I see no harm in displaying it in respect for those who gave their lives for us. What greater sacrifice can a man make, than to give their life for others, even those jerks who will never appreciate it. Like Jesus did

  • Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:26 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 8

    The brief filed by LLI states, "There could be few if any symbols in Western military heritage more appropriate to honor exemplary service and the giving of one's life to save another than a cross, a universal symbol of beneficent sacrifice."

    Actually a cross is the symbol of Christianity. Everyone knows that. Our government can't favor any religion. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment must be respected.

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