Atheists Advertise 'Man Created God' on Chicago Buses

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

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Atheist messages have hit the third largest city in the country.

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(Photo: Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign)
A Chicago bus with an atheist ad message passes by.

"In the beginning, man created God," read ads posted on 25 Chicago buses.

The slogan "espouses the idea that man created God as well as all religions, and encourages public and critical examination of the merits of religious belief," according to Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign.

The ads were launched in the windy city last week just after the Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign had similar messages up and running in South Bend, Ind., where President Barack Obama had earlier addressed graduates of the preeminent Roman Catholic university – the University of Notre Dame.

"In my opinion, this is a great message to put out there," said Reba Boyd Wooden, executive director of Center for Inquiry, an organization that promotes secularism. "Too many people think that you have to be religious to be a moral person. They don't know they have a choice. They think that it is a given that there is a god, that everyone believes there is a god, and if you don't believe in god you are a bad person. We secular humanists know that is not true."

The ads in South Bend state "You can be good without God."

Members and supporters of the Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign revealed two different motivations behind launching the ads. Some, the campaign reported, want to promote a positive message about atheism and encourage atheists to "come out" while others want to tackle religious belief head-on with science and evidence-based approaches.

According to The Chicago Tribune, the Indiana atheist group was "inspired" by a similar campaign that was launched in Europe last year by the British Humanist Association. Bus ads there read: "There’s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

In recent years, more atheists have come into the spotlight, loudly proclaiming their beliefs – or unbelief – and challenging Christianity. Although atheists make up a small percentage of America's population, the public nature of their efforts has not left them unnoticed, especially among Christians.

Christian scholars have responded by releasing a myriad of resources helping fellow believers to strengthen their Bible knowledge, training them in Christian apologetics to defend their faith, and in the process strengthening their own faith.

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Professor_X »

Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:33 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Why They Eventually Leave Atheism.

It is Unrealistic and Unlivable.

http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
angeljodi »

Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:05 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

sorry soulless... GOD Loves even YOU.
livedaniel »

Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:29 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

TO be goofy or godly,the choice is in your hand,but also you must accept the responding result!
Ethan »

Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:06 am Agree: 10 Disagree: 2

Flagged as inappropriate. show Atheism being a religion is like how not collecting stamps is a hobby. hide
Alockslee »

Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:20 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

nhowellzki Â» Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:12 am The Claim That There Is No God Is An Escape From All Realities ----> http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/the-claim-that-there-is-no-god-is-an-escape-from-all-realities/
----------------------------------------------------------
In response: The website and link you offer first fails to make any argument and then presupposes that readers here are going to automatically know your thoughts and intent. This habit is similar to those here that simply post bible quotes and say little and usually nothing to with the topic but those engaging in this practice expect that this method actually puts forth a coherent commentary.

It doesn't do this and only further illustrates the laziness and arrogant position that evangelicals and fundamentalist take as a rule and this is wrong. These groups are not in charge of even their own members and certainly not anyone not following this ideology.

As to the link provided it's title/explanation says everything one needs to know exactly Why the article and those from similar sources have neither efficacy or credibility since it stems from those who are committing the atrocities listed above.

"The Official Blog of the Presiding Minister, Members of the Church of God, International www.angdatingdaan.org",

These folks are directly involved in Dominionism and that simply stated is the movement to completely takeover and force the conversion of the entire world's inhabitants at any cost.

So remember when any fundies offer an article or story to explain another group, you must first recognize that they have an agenda to prevent anyone from interfering in their world domination efforts and they will do anything regardless of knowing lying, falsifying, omitting, changing facts, fraud, etc., to obtain their goals of ultimately world domination.

The same goal is expressed and attributed to Satan in their version of the bible and since they follow the intent so exactly they are furthering that goal and using what they are decrying the entire time and hoping their members and everyone else is deaf and blind to it.

This will not and can't be allowed to happen. It must be exposed and stopped completely and will be accomplished partly due to the fundies own stupidity and the effectiveness of investigations into their illegal activities.
http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Is America a "christian nation"?
TFR
Slacker »

Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:12 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 9

Well given that this the 2nd DIFFERENT argument against God it is obvious that the Atheist have no proof at all against the existance of God....
nhowellzki »

Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:18 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

The Claim That There Is No God Is An Escape From All Realities
2009 February 24
by Bro. Eli

According to the latest available statistics there are about 15-30% of the world populations that are either agnostic or atheists. Atheist and agnostics are defined as:
agnostic
agâ
nhowellzki »

Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:12 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 3

The Claim That There Is No God Is An Escape From All Realities ----> http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/the-claim-that-there-is-no-god-is-an-escape-from-all-realities/
1SOG3 »

Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:26 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 14

You have your faith in Atheism. I'll keep mine in Jesus and in the end there is a 100% guarantee we'll find out who was right. By advertising your belief in no god, you are asserting a faith. You worship man.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:51 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 0

@Jehovahnissi

You say: "To deal with the human will, its nature and functions, respect should be had to the will in three different men, namely, unfallen Adam, the sinner, and the Lord Jesus Christ. In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam's will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because he was "the Holy One of God." Before he was born into this world it was said to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" Luke 1:35. Speaking reverently then, we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with his sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was his eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam's will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise - capable of turning toward either good or evil - the sinner's will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner's will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart."

>>>>You making a great deal of positive assertions here why should I believe any of this nonsense?
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:48 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 1

@Daniel Paul
You say:"Cause and effect are created things. Now, you have said there is no God yet you presented no proof. Do you believe that by faith? Prove there is no God. That is what is required without faith."

>>>>Cause and Effect are not created things. They are part of reality. As for God proof, the burden of proof is on those who make the assertion that a given god exists. If someone were to claim that invisible fairies exist in gardens which contain roses then there is no reason to believe that claim without their bringing forth the evidence that their assertion is true. It is not unreasonable to not only deny these fairies but to assert that said fairies do not exist until sufficient evidence is presented to the contrary. That is what I am doing with my assertion that there is no god. Till theists can show otherwise in an unambiguous way for all intents and purposes to life there is no god.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:38 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

@believer
You say: "sl, if a parent tells a child not to play in the street they don't need to know why it is wrong to play in the street but only that their parents who love them told them not to because they love them and only wants what's best for them which is what God wanted for Adam and Eve."

If an omnipotent and omniscient parent doesn't want their child to play in the street and that parent knows they will anyway but is determined to not have their child play in the street that omnipotent omniscient parent eliminates the street.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:34 pm Agree: 6 Disagree: 1

@Jehovahnissi

You are your mind and your mind is inextricable from the brain. Mind/Brain unity is very well established. Your Bible is wrong because it is based on 2000 year old understandings of the universe and physiology. We know better now.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:30 pm Agree: 4 Disagree: 0

@DelightntheLord

>>>>Eternally burning in Hell is not punishment, it is torture. Punishment is with the intention of creating deterence and the eventual ability to show that one has been detered therefore punishment must be temporary. Hell is said to be permanent, therefore Hell is not punishment; it is torture.

You say: "God is blameless...you are not. Christians do not "refuse" to look at the flaws godless men think they need to "point out", rather Christians who have been regenerated by God accept Him on His terms;
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Rom 6:23)"

>>>>No, god is nonexistent and I am not. According to the Bible the wages of sin are not "death" but an eternal life of burning in agony in the fires of Hell. If that is so, then I am more loving, more understanding, more thoughtful, more considerate, and more forgiving than the Biblical god.

You say: "Only if you are stuck in time, like we are. God knows the beginning and the end, so "predestination" is simply the result of the culmination of History of those who have chosen to love and obey God. Consider that the Word of God is eternal, breathed by God outside of time and it tells of the beginnings and the end. No other religiously inspired book can boast this."

>>>>There is no such thing as "outside of time".

You say: :Who else has the words of life eternal?
No one but Christ Himself. His very incarnation split our time; B.C. and A.D."

>>>>Time is an illusion. The counting of time as we understand it is of human invention. And not everyone uses B.C. and A.D.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

@DelightntheLord

You say: "He gave man free will to choose, either for or against Him; between obedience and disobedience.
My dog doesn't need to understand good and evil in order to obey my command to sit. Simply, God told them ahead of time; it was the cataylst for the excercise of free choice."

>>>>A dog is trained to obey, and a dog does not obey after being told once. It only learns through repetition. Humans can learn this way as well, but not doing things because one is trained to avoid it through repetition and just being told not to do something are entirely different processes. It all goes back to the nature of what good and evil are. "Good" and "Evil" are really no different than "Right" and "Wrong". "Good", "Evil", "Right", "Wrong" are all relative judgments. So as for the Genesis narritive what was actually being kept from Adam and Eve in the story was the abilty to Judge, that is to say, Determine "Good" from "Evil" or "Right" from "Wrong". They couldn't even judge that being naked was "Right" or "Wrong" before eating the fruit. Yet the god of the Bible is expecting them to be able to understand without the ablility to Judge that obeying him was "Right" and disobeying him was "Wrong", because if they could not make such determinations then Adam and Eve were nothing but puppets.

You say:"Yup, He knew, that is why the very first prophesy of a savior for mankind is found in Genesis 3:15. We, who have accepted the Savior have come into life and choose freely to love God. One will not be forced to love God."

>>>>But if we don't we are told we will burn in Hell by the Bible. That's an ultimatum.

You say: "God created man to show His mercy and love for His creation to an audience of angels who did not rebel."

>>>>Yet according to the Bible most of the humans that have ever lived will burn in Hell for all eternity. That's neither mercy nor love.

You say: "God took a risk that man would rebel. Instead of creating mindless, robotic creation, He created man to love and fellowship with Him through free choice; freely choosing to love and trust God. If God chose not to create man, you would be oblivion or "soulless" as you already consider yourself, so what does it matter? Rebellion against God leads to punishment because man without God is depraved in his nature."
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:46 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

@Jehovahnissi

You say: "If the will is determined, then there must be a determiner."

There is only Nature of which we are a part. We are subject to the laws of Nature, just like we are subject to gravity. There is no "determiner", there are only the natural laws to which we are subject.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:34 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

@Jehovahnissi

Human Will is an emergent property of brain function, just as the things we call "the mind" and "consciousness" are emergent properties of human brain function. They are inextricably linked to the material world.
Soulless »

Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:23 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

@Viking

You are of course absolutely correct that there is no Hell, but we both know that isn't the prevailing view of the majority of Christians.
Daniel Paul »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:31 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 3

"since there is no god and time is just an interval within the movement of space"

Cause and effect are created things.

Now, you have said there is no God yet you presented no proof. Do you believe that by faith? Prove there is no God. That is what is required without faith.
believer »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:36 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 3

sl, if a parent tells a child not to play in the street they don't need to know why it is wrong to play in the street but only that their parents who love them told them not to because they love them and only wants what's best for them which is what God wanted for Adam and Eve.
DelightntheLord »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:48 pm Agree: 3 Disagree: 5

I don't know what good it would be to answer self named "soulless" questions, since he has determined his own destiny apart from God, but here goes:

>>"Who placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden?"

God did. Why would He do this? Because He gave man free will to choose, either for or against Him; between obedience and disobedience.

>>"If Adam and eve didn't have knowledge of good and evil how could they truly comprehend it was "wrong" to eat from it?"<<

My dog doesn't need to understand good and evil in order to obey my command to sit. Simply, God told them ahead of time; it was the cataylst for the excercise of free choice.

>>"If your god is "all knowing" wouldn't your god have to know they would eat from it before they did?"<<

Yup, He knew, that is why the very first prophesy of a savior for mankind is found in Genesis 3:15. We, who have accepted the Savior have come into life and choose freely to love God. One will not be forced to love God.

>>"If everything your god created was "perfect".<<

God pronounced creation as "good", not perfect because by then satan and one third of the angels rebelled in pride.
God created man to show His mercy and love for His creation to an audience of angels who did not rebel.

>>"Your god IS a control freak within the narrative of the Biblical story"<<

God took a risk that man would rebel. Instead of creating mindless, robotic creation, He created man to love and fellowship with Him through free choice; freely choosing to love and trust God. If God chose not to create man, you would be oblivion or "soulless" as you already consider yourself, so what does it matter? Rebellion against God leads to punishment because man without God is depraved in his nature.

>>"He gets all the credit and none of the blame, but I'm just pointing out the flaws you refuse to look at."<<

God is blameless...you are not. Christians do not "refuse" to look at the flaws godless men think they need to "point out", rather Christians who have been regenerated by God accept Him on His terms;
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Rom 6:23)

>>"No, internally predestination and free will are opposites"<<

Only if you are stuck in time, like we are. God knows the beginning and the end, so "predestination" is simply the result of the culmination of History of those who have chosen to love and obey God. Consider that the Word of God is eternal, breathed by God outside of time and it tells of the beginnings and the end. No other religiously inspired book can boast this.

Who else has the words of life eternal?

No one but Christ Himself. His very incarnation split our time; B.C. and A.D.
viking »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:41 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 2

Soulless, regarding your discussion of hell and punishment you miss my point. All of your argument regarding hell and punishment is moot since there is no "hell" in the bible either old or new testament. The words translated as hell are actually Sheol/hades which mean literally the grave (this is the word exclusively used in the old testament), Ghenna which is a literal physical real world place located in current Israel, and Tarturus the greek word literally meaning "the hidden place" or abode of the dead. No hell as a place of punishment for humans with demons and pitchforks, burning lakes of fire, etc. etc. is ever mentioned anywhere in the Christian Bible (or Jewish talmud). Again it is unfortunate that you have formed your views based on popular misinformation about christianity.
Soulless »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:59 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

getting late goodnight
Soulless »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:58 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

@Daniel Paul

"isn't predestination and free will different views of the same events simply viewed from inside the time creation?"

No, internally predestination and free will are opposites, but an omniscient god would have to mean that predestination exists. However, since there is no god and time is just an interval within the movement of space we end up with what we actually have which is cause and effect.
Soulless »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:50 am Agree: 3 Disagree: 2

@Daniel Paul

Questions for you to answer:
Who placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden?
If Adam and eve didn't have knowledge of good and evil how could they truly comprehend it was "wrong" to eat from it?
If your god is "all knowing" wouldn't your god have to know they would eat from it before they did?
If everything your god created was "perfect". Why did your god do the very thing required to make them "imperfect" by placing that tree there when he knew they didn't really understand why they shouldn't eat from it? So he could blame them for his own actions?

Your god IS a control freak within the narrative of the Biblical story. What your god apparently wants is to give people the illusion of free will and then punish them when they actually use it. That's called toying with people, and it's not very nice.

Your god wants to blame me for something that someone else supposedly did. I was never in the "Garden of Eden".

The god you've known all your life is the god of your own making. You see your god through rose colored glasses. He gets all the credit and none of the blame, but I'm just pointing out the flaws you refuse to look at.
Daniel Paul »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:33 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 4

"Free Will"

Actually, the concept of free will was put forth by those who said God really wasn't in control. It was a secular arguement against what the church was teaching.
Daniel Paul »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:30 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 4

"things unfold as they do within the system but there is no predetermination for example it wasn't predetermined before I was born that I would be sitting here at my computer at this second. "

An interesting statement deserves and interesting question...let's see what you think.

If time and space are created things then 'before the foundation of the world' and at the judgement seat after the world is over' are the same instant outside of the time creation. So, isn't predestination and free will different views of the same events simply viewed from inside the time creation?
Daniel Paul »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:27 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 3

"Any supposed god who is said to be the "creator", as is said of the Biblical god, is necessarily the creator of the rules dealing with a so called "afterlife" that includes the rule that says that anyone who doesn't go to "Heaven" must automatically go to "Hell"."

Actually, He created everything perfect. Man was sinless and destin to live forever with Him. It was man who turned and walked away. For Him not to have allowed for that possibility would have made Him a control freak. If He did allow for that then we wouldn't be having this conversation because you wouldn't have any choice but to do what He wants as if you were a puppet.

On the one hand you want to blame Him for there being a hell and on the other hand you blame Him for not being a control freak. You have a strange definition of God and it doesn't match the God I've known most of my life.

You seem to want God to be the villian to somehow blame Him for whatever is wrong as you see it. You might want to try to take responsibility for your own life and your own choices. You seem to think it is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven. I've found serving Him here is pretty cool and I look forward to the fun in heaven.
Soulless »

Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:25 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

@viking

We are subject to the cause/effect system. I cannot choose to actually believe a god exist, even though some people make that claim they really can't, in fact I didn't choose to not believe. I was a believer and I found myself convinced over time that I was incorrect about that belief. Belief and disbelief just happen as part of the system. Morality and ethics often ebb and flow along this cause/effect system, but we have evolved a desire to survive. If we hadn't we wouldn't have survived as well as we have. This alone is enough to generate reasons and purpose for much that humanity individually and collectively determines for itself. We acquire a natural proclivity toward that which ensures survival. Survival is broad enough to encompass many differing ideologies and that is evidenced in the various cultures that have existed. "more moral, considerate etc." is a rather relative judgment and those determinations by individuals or collective groups will be firmly grounded in the cause/effect system even as it remains relative. Like I said, who we are is the sum of our experiences and our thoughts and feelings about our experiences. Two people may have remarkably similar experiences but their thoughts and feelings will be different about them. When it comes to morality for example, All morality comes from our intention for ourselves, our culture, or our society. Things that are contrary to our intentions will automatically be deemed "wrong" or "immoral". Many people argue over differing morality but that conflict is created only when someone else decides to dictate the intention which they will do because they will feel they must. There are no moral absolutes, only similarities in our intentions, and one of our most basic and most common intentions is survival.

You ask: "Also if you have no free will than aren't all of your statements also predetermined by your nature and history rather than any virtue of inherent validity?"

The fact that I'm saying this at all is not "pre"determined but is determined by the cause/effect system, things unfold as they do within the system but there is no predetermination for example it wasn't predetermined before I was born that I would be sitting here at my computer at this second. The future doesn't exist there is only now which is experienced by our minds. As far as inherent validity is concerned, we are able to make predictions within the cause/effect system the fact that we can do that is the perfect example of how inherently valid what I'm saying is. Science, for example, makes predictions about the results of experimentations every day but any prediction is only a matter of probability.
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 11:42 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

@viking

Hell described in the Bible is cannot be for punishment in spite of the Biblical use of the word "punishment". Punishment is done with the intention of creating deterrence and therefore must, by necessity, be temporary so as to provide opportunity to example having been deterred. Hell is forever according to the Bible and there are many places it talks about it and therefore one must conclude that creating deterrence must not be the intention. Burning for all eternity would indeed be torture should such a thing be possible. Of course, it's nonsense since there is no afterlife and there is no such thing as the "soul".
viking »

Sun May 31, 2009 11:40 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Soulless, thank you that was very clear. If I may a follow up observation and question. If it as you eloquently described then those who think differently than you are equally devoid of free will in the matter and have no option but to believe and advocate as they do given all the forces acting upon them as you have described. In that case isn't it a contradiction to maintain that anyone is more moral, considerate, etc. than any one else (especially a supposed mythical entity)?
Also if you have no free will than aren't all of your statements also predetermined by your nature and history rather than any virtue of inherent validity?
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 11:19 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

@viking
It's very clear to me that we live in a universe of a very complex tapestry of cause/effect sequences, which begins from the circumstances of our birth. "Free Will" is an illusion. We have choice but that's as far as the illusion goes. Even a casual look deeper and one can see that all the options for every choice are still determined by the cause/effect system we live under and our actual choices are based upon the results of our experiences of past cause/effect sequences whether those experiences are real or not. Our interpretation of those experiences are very important since this will affect how the choices are made, and since who we are as a person is the sum of our experiences, and our thoughts and feelings about those experiences, as well as our genetic propensities there is virtually nothing left that could be construed as having a "Free Will". Free Will was created by people so it would make it easier to place blame and punish those who are seen as "wrong doers", but with the exception of those people who are mentally damaged in some physiological way, murders, rapists and thieves are made, not born. And to accept the concept of "Free Will" is to relinquish our own contribution to creating such people even if only in the tiniest of ways. Human experience is generated both at the level of the individual and at the level of small and great collectives. We are also at the effect of the natural world around us, the weather for example, which also plays a part in the input of the cause/effect system we live under. The more I look at it the less room there is for a god.

I hope this answers your questions.
viking »

Sun May 31, 2009 11:17 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

soulless,
Hi I am wondering where you got the idea that such a place/punishment/etc. as hell exists within Christianity?
If you actually check the Christian scriptures (not the mistranslations) you will find that no such word exists or is used in the Old or New Testaments.
Sorry you have been so misinformed about Christian beliefs.
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 10:50 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 2

@believer

Any god that would make a rule that would end in the torture of even one individual for all eternity simply for a lack of belief is a monster I want nothing to do with. I'm more moral, more thoughtful, more considerate, more caring, and more understanding than that god.
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 10:48 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

@Daniel Paul

Any supposed god who is said to be the "creator", as is said of the Biblical god, is necessarily the creator of the rules dealing with a so called "afterlife" that includes the rule that says that anyone who doesn't go to "Heaven" must automatically go to "Hell". It doesn't matter that in your view everyone is going to Hell without intervention. The rule would still have had to been initiated by the creator and therefore is still culpable for the ultimatum, and it is indeed an ultimatum. You obviously dislike the idea of giving any blame to your gods intentions but if your god had not made the rules he could get out of taking responsibility, but he can't. He's stuck with it being an ultimatum no matter how much of a spin you want to put upon it.

The description that you have is of the Mafia Boss who likes to put on the good show of benevolence. I'm not buying it. He's a monster with a single spray veneer of loving kindness.
viking »

Sun May 31, 2009 10:44 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

soulless,
sorry to have been so brief and vague. If you were familiar with the "argument from reason" you would understand the connection. That aside do you in fact believe that you have identity meaning that you believe yourself to be an agent rather than an object or simply an artifact of the universe. Also do you believe you have free will by this I mean do you have the ability to make choices at all or do you instead believe that your acts are determined by natural processes of the universe. Finally do you believe that you actually reason by this of course I mean to have thoughts which proceed rationally from evidence to conclusion rather than being determined by natural forces of the universe independent of the thoughts ultimate validity.
I would really be interested on your beliefs on these topics.
thanks
believer »

Sun May 31, 2009 10:16 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

sl, God's desire is for a relationship with all men and He says that all we must do is admit we're a sinner and desire to have a personal relationship with Him by turning from our sin and turning to Him by putting our complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone.
Daniel Paul »

Sun May 31, 2009 9:22 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 3

"The "free gift" you are referring to is an ultimatum.

"Love me and do as I would have you do, or burn for all eternity"

Actually, no...it's not a ultimatum. Each member of mankind IS going to hell without intervention. God does not owe any of us salvation or heaven. In a nutshell...so out of luck!

An ultimatum is "a final preemptory demand". He is not demanding that any of us love Him or obey Him. He is willing to save us from the fate we rightfully deserve and He gave His son to make that possible. We can accept HIS grace and the terms that go with it or we can reject what we don't deserve and accept the consequences.

On top of that goes the concept that things run better when you use them the way they are designed to be used. Things like ... you follow the engine manual for your car (thinks like oil change, spark plug changes, don't use Nitro and the like) -or- really bad things can happen! God's rules are not for His benefit...they're for ours.
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 8:34 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 0

@Viking

Your post is a non sequitur. What I said does not logically lead to having no identity, free will or rationality. Those things are quite irrelevant to what I said and are entirely different issues.
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 8:25 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 1

@Believer

The "free gift" you are referring to is an ultimatum.

"Love me and do as I would have you do, or burn for all eternity"

That's really no different than the Mafia Boss giving you the choice to either do as he would have you do or you get to sleep with the fishes.
viking »

Sun May 31, 2009 8:09 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

soulless,
You must also logically believe then that you have no identity, free will or rationality.
believer »

Sun May 31, 2009 7:46 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 0

sl, but fortunately for atheists, God does not dismiss them and continues to offer to them His free gift of salvation!
Soulless »

Sun May 31, 2009 6:14 pm Agree: 2 Disagree: 2

To paraphrase to monotheists, "I contend that we are all atheists. I simply believe in one fewer God than you do. When you comprehend why you dismiss all the other possible Gods, you will comprehend why I dismiss yours."
abhodim »

Sun May 31, 2009 12:25 am Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

"Man Created God" plastered on a bus.
A message like that on a usually empty vehicle.
Grand symbolism. Fitting for a sermon.
weekenderman »

Sat May 30, 2009 11:19 am Agree: 4 Disagree: 3

" "When your God hates all the people you hate, you know God was created in your image."

The God of the Bible hates sin, but not humans. Christians are to do likewise. Anyone who follows a god who hates people is following the wrong god.
Rhi Bran »

Sat May 30, 2009 12:54 am Agree: 2 Disagree: 2

I read a quote once, can't think of the source, "When your God hates all the people you hate, you know God was created in your image." Unfortunately, the behavior of many Christians adds truth to the athiests attempt to provoke. Another person(Albert Schweitzer??) said that Victorian Englishmen went searching for the historical Jesus and discovered a Jesus that strangely resembled a Victorian Gentleman.
steveh20 »

Fri May 29, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

Hi viking and jc

Just passing through as its time for bed here, see the conversations going well.

jc, your final words "assumption and conjecture" reminded me of another legal minded person who logicaly comments here sometimes, but it must just be me needing some zzzzzzzz's and tomorrow things will seem different.

BW

Steve
viking »

Fri May 29, 2009 3:29 pm Agree: 0 Disagree: 0

JC. have to run right now but will be back to respond to the rest of your post perhaps you want to review it in light of the antibiotics thing and rethink some of your claims. later beloved.
viking »

Fri May 29, 2009 3:28 pm Agree: 1 Disagree: 1

Hi JC,
I sincerely love the way you preface your posts. Reminds us of our call to Christian Charity.
I will respond quickly to your comment

Beloved, you are correct except for one huge point. All these resistant bacteria became this way because of intervention. If antibiotics would have not been discovered, these bacteria would have not changed.

I think if you think this through you will realize how incorrect it is. As you point out antibiotics were "discovered" by humans not invented. Natural antibiotics have been in the world for millions of years and bacteria encountering them have had the same natural selection response as to man made antibiotics developing greater resistance over time.
I am not claiming that this proves evolution just pointing out that perhaps you aren't thinking these issues through from an evidence based point of view but rather responding with predetermined rejection based on something other than the facts .
JC »

Fri May 29, 2009 10:05 am Agree: 0 Disagree: 1

To Viking:

You said "This is the same thing we see happen all the time with for example antibiotic resistant bacteria."

Beloved, you are correct except for one huge point. All these resistant bacteria became this way because of intervention. If antibiotics would have not been discovered, these bacteria would have not changed.

Regarding immunity to toxins, this is not a case of evolution but adaptation. As far as new species traits, which of these are you talking about? Are you talking about new species which we knew nothing about? If so, this is a moot point. If you are talking about species we've already identified, finding some new trait, that is simply assumption that this species never performed this particular trait in the past. This is circular reasoning and never gets outside of it's own circle. Assumption and conjecture.

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