Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:12:05 pm ET

Society|Fri, May. 29 2009 10:16 AM EDT

Pastor Cited for Holding Home Bible Study Without Permit

By Katherine T. Phan|Christian Post Reporter

A San Diego pastor is fighting a citation from the San Diego County that requires him to obtain a permit to host weekly Bible studies at his home.

Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been hosting a Bible Study fellowship at their home every Tuesday for the past five years. The meeting, averaging 15 people each week, is usually comprised of dinner, fellowship and Bible study.

The meetings have gone without government interference until recently. Jones told KGTV, an ABC News affiliate in San Diego, that the visitor to a neighbor's house alerted the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving.

In April, a County employee visited the Jones' residence and informed the couple that they were not allowed to hold "religious assembles" in their home unless they obtained a major use permit. The employee warned that the couple would face fines upwards of $1,000 if they failed to comply with the County's order.

The County later sent the Joneses a written warning ordering them to "cease/stop religious assembly on parcel or obtain major use permit."

News of the County's order has re-ignited debate over the interpretation of the First Amendment.

The Joneses and their attorney of The Western Center for Law and Policy, based in Escondido, Calif, said the couple's rights to hold the Bible studies are protected by the U.S. Constitution.

The Administration Citation and Cease and Desist Order violate the "Jones' right to assemble peaceably and privately in their home for the purpose of religious worship," stated WCLP president Dean R. Broyles in a letter sent on behalf of the Joneses to the County Tuesday.

The letter alleges the County is discriminating against religious activity because it doesn't require a permit for secular assemblies such as cub scout meetings, friends gathering each week to watch sports on TV, book clubs, sewing clubs, or poker nights in residential zones.

Donald Wildmon, chairman of the American Family Association, defended the Bible study meeting on Thursday, urging supporters to sign a petition to the San Diego County Board that calls the County's actions "anti-Christian."

"I am upset that you would shut down a home Bible study of 15 people and yet allow similar secular events," reads the petition. "Your actions appear to have an anti-Christian slant and should cease immediately."

The Joneses and WCLP, according to the letter, are giving the County until early next week to uphold the couple's right to continue holding the Bible study meeting. If the County refuses to comply, the couple is prepared to consider a lawsuit.

A meeting between the two sides this week was unfruitful, according to KGTV. The next meeting is scheduled for June 9.

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  • Sun May 31, 2009 5:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "chicago, plus if parking is the problem then ticket the cars!!! "

    No joke!!! If the cars are legally parked then there isn't a problem. If they are not parked legally then the car needs to be ticketed.

    As a side note...I've come to the conclusion our governments wouldn't have $$$ problems if the police would just write the tickets on drivers who the should and judges would actually collect the fines! If they can afford a lawyer they can afford the fine. Here in my part of SC it would be like shooting fish in a barrel.... We could solve the national debt in short order!!!

  • Sat May 30, 2009 1:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I stand corrected. The limit is $12,000.

    http://www.irs.gov/publications/p950/ar02.html

  • Sat May 30, 2009 12:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wrong. Gifts are tax exempt. I believe there is a limit, though. From what I understand it's around $10,000 though. So, these people are well within their legal rights to give money to whom they want without the government interference.

  • Sat May 30, 2009 11:51 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Technically Prophet when your old mum gives you the C-note, it is income and should be declared as such on tax reports to Caesar. Penitent- I'll grant you if your group is collecting to then give 100% to a 3rd party, I wouldn't consider that income. My hypothetical approach assumed in consideration an applying of the collection to costs of conducting said event thus becoming income offsetting expense and the sum beyond expense being profit. hide

  • Sat May 30, 2009 11:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I've never heard of a collection being taken at a home Bible study. Good try, though."

    Our weekly home Bible study takes a collection every week. People put change and the occasional dollar into the jar. (if they have some - nothing mandatory) At the end of the year it gets donated to charity. This cannot be considered a business any more than tossing change into the Savlation Army kettle at Christmas makes the giver part of a business.

  • Sat May 30, 2009 11:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I've never heard of a collection being taken at a home Bible study. Good try, though.

  • Sat May 30, 2009 10:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I would have asked if the assembly takes up a collection. Then I would say that it is a misuse of property under residential zoning. Taking in income makes it a business."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Charging money for something makes it a business. People giving money out of the goodness of their heart is love. Or am I considered a business when my mother still sends me $100 for my birthday every year (God bless her. LOL)?

  • Sat May 30, 2009 9:22 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    The news story at this site gives a good comprehensive update on this story.

    http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/
    30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/?metro

    As the dust settles it seems clear that far from a general persecution or antichristian conspiracy this incident was a typical case of a low level official overstepping the intent and letter of the ordinance which was designed for large gatherings and assemblies. It is clear that if you read between the lines this employee will be having a performance review and "supervisory guidance" provided.
    In fact the action of the supervisory county official to correct the situation following the constitution shows clearly the importance of the 1st ammendment and the seperation of church and state (including the prohibition against laws which limit the free excercise of religion). In fact it is fair to say that we should thank God and the founders that they did not establish this country as a "Christian Nation" but rather as a secular nation with guaruntees of religious freedom without either state sanction or suppression.

  • Sat May 30, 2009 7:54 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I am puzzled by the fact that a pastor, who should have church facilities at his use, should not retire to his fellowship hall once the home study program became a little unyielding. On the one hand, I am pleased that the study of the Word has a draw (15-27 is how we usually range for a between services Bible study), and I understand the charm of gathering in homes for this (a la first century Christianity). Still, to not be open to the pracitcal problems several cars in a cul-de-sac could cause.
    I pray this Bible study expand, and these Christians ponder the blessed problem of expansion.

  • Sat May 30, 2009 7:38 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    Flagged as inappropriate. show I would have asked if the assembly takes up a collection. Then I would say that it is a misuse of property under residential zoning. Taking in income makes it a business. They had regular meetings so they has established business hours. A church is zoned differently than a residence in all jurisdictions I am familiar with. But what I want is even more aggressive attention to the "churches" of America. I want all this land that has been taken off property tax rolls for mega-churches in Texas put back on and have taxes collected. I pay more property taxes so that churches can get off free. That makes me feel cheated. hide

  • Fri May 29, 2009 10:50 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    chicago, plus if parking is the problem then ticket the cars!!!

  • Fri May 29, 2009 10:49 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    chicago, as I said you make several assumptions, this has absolutely nothing to do with a parking problem!!

  • Fri May 29, 2009 10:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    Beleiver - Rather than make assumptions, I read other news reports about this case. Fox news mentioned that he had up to 27 people attending.

    If the investigator really asked if his meeting was of a religious nature, then he was out of line. But that doesn't negate the fact that this pastor's guests were creating a parking hazard.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 10:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Indeed-I don't think I've seen anything mentioned on parking having anything to do with it. They are possibly trying to go on a basis of disturbing the peace, hence the questioning about saying "Amen" or "Praise the Lord".

    I used to attend a church in San Diego, which was in a small building in a residential area, though they had about 200 people attending-on Sundays we would fill that residential area with cars, all up all the roads, sometimes having to walk 5-6 blocks if you came in too late, but I never heard of any complaints. A few cars in a cul-de-sac probably won't fly as a complaint-they are going to try and show that it was disturbing the neighbors, (though they never complained, evidently).

  • Fri May 29, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    chicago, you make several assumptions, first the leader says he averages 15 not 27 people a week, secondly you assume all the participants travel not only in separate vehicles but that they drive to the study as opposed to walking or taking public transportation, the reality is that things are not only rotten in Denmark but in San Diego as well!!

  • Fri May 29, 2009 9:51 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    What ever happened to separation of church and state? Or is it just keeping church out of state, but state can intrude as it wishes into the church? The government clearly overstepped their authority in this case.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 9:22 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    chicago24 ,

    The county does have a point with the parking issue; however, tell what business is it of theirs HOW they worship?


    "Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"


    http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=98895

  • Fri May 29, 2009 9:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    srpaquette » I did not see my comment on this site. I am new and maybe your site reviews all new post, so I'll wait to see if this and the last were posted. I anyone can fill me in more please do so.

    It has been taking a little longer for posts to come up, I've noticed that too...

  • Fri May 29, 2009 8:18 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you get to block other people in, or worse, keep emergency vehicles from access to your neighbors. "

    27 people at 4 per car is only 7 cars. Still, emergency vehicles (my wife drove one for a while) don't have problems. Roads are designed by code to allow for parking on both sides of the street with room for a fire truck down the middle. Are you saying the road isn't to code?

    If it were a parking issue there would be no permit involved. If it were a parking issue they would not be able to apply for a permit.

    If it were a parking issue the county would not have pointed out that it was "religious assembles". The county said this was about having a religious assembly at their home and not just a meeting. It was the county that singled it out as a religious assembly.

    This is completely about religion. They allow all sorts of meetings from Boy Scouts to Amway on a regular basis but those are not religious assemblies.

    Nice try though...

  • Fri May 29, 2009 7:55 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 5

    This pastor lives on a cul-de-sac and had as many as 27 people at his house.
    This is a parking issue according to county representatives. Plain and simple.

    Freedom of religion doesn't mean you get to block other people in, or worse, keep emergency vehicles from access to your neighbors.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 7:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I did not see my comment on this site. I am new and maybe your site reviews all new post, so I'll wait to see if this and the last were posted. I anyone can fill me in more please do so.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 6:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Its pretty sad when a Pastor who was doing bible studies in his own home has to have a permit. He has been doing them for 15 years. And now someone complains.
    God will handle this, and I bet it gets booted right out of court

  • Fri May 29, 2009 6:20 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 0

    Here is the good news... Christ said... when we are persecuted for his name's sake...REJOICE!!!!!! We know the gates of hell will wag its war..but be of good cheer.... the have lost the war... for satan shall strike at his heel but REJOICE Christ has crushed satan' skull... for Christ has overcome the world.... so be of good cheer !!!!! After 2000 yrs his grave is still empty and all the efforts to put him back in the tomb just aint gunna work...

  • Fri May 29, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    Is it only me or are others hearing the theme from the "Twilight Zone" playing, this is rather scary, but I praise the Lord that God is still on His throne and still in control!

  • Fri May 29, 2009 4:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "The County later sent the Joneses a written warning ordering them to "cease/stop religious assembly on parcel or obtain major use permit."

    If the government can tell us we can't have religious meetings in our home then it's just a fair to tell people what they can do in their own bedrooms! After all, you can't have it both ways. Either private property is private property or it's not.

    Not only should they file suit to allow themselves the right to freedom of religion but it should also file suit for abuse of power by those who made the regulations and those who enforced them. Just because they are on the coast closest to China doesn't mean the gov't needs to act like China.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 4:40 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    San Diego County would not have been there except for a complaint. So, they need to find out who made the complaint and file a "hate crime" charge against them to have them jailed....

    Oh wait, hate crimes are not against Christians....

  • Fri May 29, 2009 2:46 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 6

    (Pastor Cited for Holding Home Bible Study Without Permit)

    The county should be ashamed; until now I have only read about stories like this coming from China . . . sad.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 2:15 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Sounds more like an overzealous county employee than anything else. I'm sure they received complaints about noise or parking, and someone bozo just went a little too far. The real persecution of the Church is happening today in South America and Asia.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 1:34 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    I get it that the county is concerned about the parking situation... but let's face it... family gatherings for parties, weddings, football games, etc... are just as large if not larger. The point is, someone complained (probably couldn't park as they normally could), the county found a reason and went too far with it.

    Either way... it's persecution.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 12:36 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    shari y, I'm not sure how we can unite when some denominations teach that sexual immorality is alright, while others teach that it will send you to hell. How can we unite when some denominations teach that bread and wine are God (the doctrine of the real presence) while others consider it idolatry? There are many compelling reasons why we are not united.

  • Fri May 29, 2009 12:10 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    http://www.10news.com/news/19595677/detail.html

    The county is backing down, but they don't have the courage to actually admit they were wrong.

    And I'll go ahead and give myself a thumbs down so you don't have to (you know who you are, and so do I)

  • Fri May 29, 2009 11:30 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 7

    I agree with jar1961's 1st sentence. And we actually need a good dose of persecution here, because Christianity flourishes in countries where it is persecuted. The American Christian church needs to wake up, stop fighting between denominations, and unite.
    shari y.
    http://20-20faithsight.blogspot.com

  • Fri May 29, 2009 11:08 am Agree: 15   Disagree: 8

    The persecution of the Western Church has begun. This is the prelude to an era in which choosing between Christ and man will have eternal consequences. "No man is a fool to surrender what he can not keep to gain what he can not loose".....

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