Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Society|Wed, Jun. 03 2009 07:49 AM EDT

Poll Analysis: U.S. Christ Followers Not Following Church Leaders

By Eric Young|Christian Post Reporter

Nearly nine in ten Americans who participated in the latest Associated Press-GfK poll identified themselves as Christian but only about half of them fit the typical picture of one – or at least one close to what their leaders try to paint.

Though 86 percent of those polled said they consider themselves a Christian, only 35 percent said they attended religious services at least once a week.

Meanwhile, 51 percent said they believe abortion should be legal in all (19 percent) or most cases (33 percent), and 55 percent said they feel the use of torture against suspected terrorists to obtain information about terrorism activities is often (20 percent) or sometimes justified (32 percent).

Only 47 percent said the use of torture can rarely (18 percent) or never be justified (29 percent).

Notably, however, as religious scholar Martin Marty noted recently, most church bodies, through their leaders, “are clearly on record against our using torture as an offense against human dignity, a contradiction of our nation’s most cherished traditions, et cetera.”

“A statement issued by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in 2006 and signed by leaders of many Orthodox and Protestant denominations was condemnatory,” he noted following the release of another poll questioning Americans about torture.

"The affirmation that humans are made in the image of God and, for Christians, that one is to see the Christ in others should carry some weight," Marty added.

In the earlier poll by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, Catholics, mainline Protestants, and those not affiliated with the Church were found to be evenly divided between those who believe torture is “often” or “sometimes” justified and those who believe torture is “rarely” or “never” justified.

Evangelicals, meanwhile, were much more likely (62 percent) to believe that the use of torture on suspected terrorists can “often” (18 percent) or “sometimes” (44 percent) be justified though the National Association of Evangelicals renounced the use of torture in a 20-page statement two years ago.

"[O]bviously they ("the leaders") have not roused the laity, nor has it been the wider membership of the churches that has prodded the leaders on the issue of torture," commented Marty.

"We expect some gap between pulpit and pew – which does not mean that 'the pulpit' or the council of bishops or what have you is always right – but the silence on this issue remains disturbing," he added.

In the AP-GfK poll, released Tuesday, 40 percent of respondents said they consider themselves a born-again or evangelical Christian.

Aside from abortion and torture, respondents were asked about the state of the nation, affirmative action, economy/finances, and Supreme Court justice nominee Sonia Sotomayor.

The poll, conducted May 28 to June 1, was based on a nationally-representative probability sample of 1,000 adults, 18 or older. The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 3.1 percentage points at the 95 percent confidence level.

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  • mike »
    Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to danpart1 2000

    christ was angry at the pharisees for their insensitivity. you are an expert in the law. you are good in quoting verses that you don't know the issues.


    and by the way if you say that you are happy when you were poor then why do you enrich yourself. you are a hypocrite.

    pray for yourself because you are so self righteous.
    then pray for christ because he was angry at the pharisees for their hypocrisy.

    if you really deny yourself then you are poor like now like john the baptist. living in the wilderness & eating grasshoppers. so since you receive the 'blessings' that you steal from others then you are a cafeteria christian too which means you are a phony hypocrite.

    another is i ask if christ was a cafeteria christian just because he disagreed with the pharisees you made a spin out of it. i hope you don't sin because that is how the phariees were.


    and since you are a catholic, your teachings are based on the teachings of the pope.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 1:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Baptism is obviously required but the text shows that it is not a requirement for salvation because they were saved before baptism. If they were saved, they were saved (2 Cor 1.22, Eph 1.13, Eph 4.30) because we are sealed (sphragizo) which is a term that means to mark or to attest to authenticity. Salvation is eternal.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Baptism is obviously required but the text shows that it is not a requirement for salvation because they were saved before baptism. If they were saved, they were saved (2 Cor 1.22, Eph 1.13, Eph 4.30) because we are sealed (sphragizÅ

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    chris, I guess some in the evangelical community took their cue from the roman catholics selling of indulgences and other religious paraphenalia!

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Evangelicals turned churches into places of Business! Prosperity Gospel is garbage!"


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

    I suppose you believe that Christians are to be poor. I do agree that the prosperity message is garbage as well. But there is nothing wrong with being rich. There is no virtue in being poor. Neither is there in being rich. God will bless whom He will bless.
    But the Catholic church practices spiritual money-changing. Do you know why Jesus drove the money changers out of the temple?

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Money Changers prophet?

    More like Evangelical Mega Churches and your buddy Benny Hinn and Rod Parsley and Joel Osteen.

    Evangelicals turned churches into places of Business! Prosperity Gospel is garbage!

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:19 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    "An earlier poster picked up that you "have a lot of anger in you"..."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Yes, the righteous anger of God. The same anger that Jesus had when He drove the money changers out of the temple. I think it's time to do that again with the Catholic Church.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I grew up poor and was probably happier then than now. I've been laid off many times in my life but always trusted in God to find me employment and He has never failed me. I am close to the Infant of Prague who assures me that I will always have something to eat."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I too, lived that kind of life. My dad was the sole provider. We lived in trailers and apartments, drinking powdered milk. My clothes were hand-me-downs. Sometimes wondering where our next meal was coming from. But we were happy because we were His Children. After I got engaged, before we got married, I got laid off from my job. So we went on a budgeted wedding and spent around $200 for the whole wedding. Our church donated their facility. Our pastor did our ceremony for free, and his wife did the music for free. And even our wedding coordinator and cake were free.
    God was always faithful. It is one of the benefits of being a part of the Church.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:12 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Marriage is a covenant, not a sacrament.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, once again you revert to extra-biblical teaching when you say that marriage was a sacrament, since the Bible says absolutely no such thing, but only what God's original and only design for marriage is. There are only two ordinances that we are told to observe, water baptism and the Lord's Supper and both are symbolic and neither can save anyone. Plus, water baptism according to you is a mandatory requirement for a person to be saved and marriage is not and yet we have no record of Christ water baptizing anyone!

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:48 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    dan, Paul and Cornelius and all the Gentiles who had received the Holy Spirit were all saved and then they were water baptized. Water baptism is God's first command to a new believer and is a symbolic act of the new believer showing the world that they have become a Christian and their desire to follow Christ for the rest of their life. It does not and can not save anyone!!

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "by the way, you said that you are blessed by god & you deny yourself. well, there are plenty of people looking for a job right now. why not deny yourself & give them them your money so you can bless them."

    Of course it is some of the Corporal and Spirtual Works of Mercy:
    Corporal Works of Mercy:

    To feed the hungry;
    To give drink to the thirsty;
    To clothe the naked;
    To harbour the harbourless;
    To visit the sick;
    To ransom the captive;
    To bury the dead.

    The Spiritual Works of Mercy are:

    To instruct the ignorant;
    To counsel the doubtful;
    To admonish sinners;
    To bear wrongs patiently;
    To forgive offences willingly;
    To comfort the afflicted;
    To pray for the living and the dead.

    I always give money and clothing to the poor and always have. So does my wife. (We are not like the Joe Bidens who gave like $1200 over 5 years and he makes $1.5 million per year; or Obama whose own brother lives on $ 1.00 a monthe and he gives him nothing) I grew up poor and was probably happier then than now. I've been laid off many times in my life but always trusted in God to find me employment and He has never failed me. I am close to the Infant of Prague who assures me that I will always have something to eat.

    An earlier poster picked up that you "have a lot of anger in you" and I can see that. I will keep you in my prayers as he promised.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Peter affirms that Cornelius was saved prior to being baptized in Acts 10:47, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we did, can he?"

    This again shows a requirement to be Baptized; not just a saving affirmation. Baptism always occurs. It even says "no one can refuse it."

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "And Paul had been saved on the Damascus Road and was not baptized by Ananias until a while later."

    Now you got it. This is proof that Baptism is "required" since had "saved" been the only requirement Paul would not need to be Baptized. But he did because as a Sacrament it is required.
    Even today, Catholics do not get Baptized at the moment of birth; a period of time does go by. But it is still and absolute.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, if water baptism is a mandatory requirment for a person to be saved then why do we have no record of Jesus Christ baptizing anyone? And why do we have verses in the Bible such as Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10:9-10 which tells us what is required for a person to be saved any yet say absolutely nothing about water baptism being required for salvation?"

    Good and valid questions. Jesus gives us the example of John the Baptizer Baptizing Him (even though He did not need it Himself since He is God and free of sin. Jesus does not show Himself getting married yet Marriage like Baptism is one of the seven Sacraments.

    As to the second part there are plenty of other verses in the Bible affirming the necessity for Baptism, one exceptionally clear one I gave you in a prior post. It doesn's fit your erroneous interpretation so it upsets you rather than admit the error and seek the truth. Even the early Protestants did not reject Baptism and included it as one of those conditions they perceived as a Sacrament.

    And you're still locked into "water Baptism" - Baptism is required but not all forms are by "water." This is the most common form however.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, here are some other passages that do not mention baptism as a requirement for salvation."

    Logic 101 - The absence of something does not affirm a truth. So much for Sola Scriptura - Protestants have an erroneous belief and then they hunt in Scripture until they find something that they think supports it.

    Logic 101 - When one starts with a posit that is in error (Sola Scriptura) all after that will be in error.

    There is nothing clearer than Jesus' own words as in John below no matter how one twists it to fit in with an erroneous belief.

    Jesus is as straightforward as He can get.

    John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, here are some other passages that do not mention baptism as a requirement for salvation, John 3:16, 18, 36, 5:24, 20:31, and Titus 3:5. And Paul says in I Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the Cross of Christ would not be made void.". And Paul had been saved on the Damascus Road and was not baptized by Ananias until a while later. Peter affirms that Cornelius was saved prior to being baptized in Acts 10:47, "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we did, can he?"

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, if water baptism is a mandatory requirment for a person to be saved then why do we have no record of Jesus Christ baptizing anyone? And why do we have verses in the Bible such as Ephesians 2:8-10 and Romans 10:9-10 which tells us what is required for a person to be saved any yet say absolutely nothing about water baptism being required for salvation?

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "so christ has / is a 'cafeteria style' person?

    If you believe He is - you reap what you sow.

    If you are asking me if He is - He can't be - He is God and his teachings are his teachings - He can teach anything He wants. This is a non-sequitor

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ...so the verse proves nothing about a â

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, if water baptism is an absolute requirement for a person to be saved..."

    You keep limiting it to "water Baptism." "Baptism" is required. And there are 3 kinds:
    Baptism of water (which Jesus illustrated with John)
    Baptism of desire (the good thief)
    Baptism of blood (martyrs dying for Christ)

    John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

    When speaking of water Baptism (as you call it); John is as clear as it gets. And the penalty is pretty severe for those who ignore it.

    Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a â

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, if water baptism is an absolute requirement for a person to be saved then all the scriptures that tell a person how to be saved would include it and there are several such as Romans 10:9-10 that do not. Is water baptism important, yes, since it is the first command God gives to every new believer, but water baptism can save no one!

  • mike »
    Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    to danpart1
    christ disagreed & did not follow the pharisees when he healed the sick & the suffering during the sabbath.
    he showed the compassion of god rather than obeying & following the sabbath.

    so christ has / is a 'cafeteria style' person?

    when christ disagreed with the pharisees about many things, he was labeled 'illigitimate, son of bezebiar, a fraud'. the pharisees do not know the reason behind the issues of why christ did what he did, they just labeled & accused him. just like you do when others disagree with you.

    or let us put it this way, the blind & the suffering should have followed the sabbath day law & should have told christ 'don't heal us today, come back tomorrow, it is the sabbath.' you might be called a 'cafeteria person' by the pharisees.

    I understood now why many believers missed blessings, healings, freedom from bondage not because they lack faith but bec. people like you would give those who are suffering a 'snake when they are asking for a fish.' then label & accuse them when they disagree with you. in luke, a blind man CRIED out for healing, but the people / pharisees / synagogue leaders (priest pastors) would say 'shut up' or 'that is not biblical'. in the book of job, elipahaz & his friends accused job of sin for his suffering & he should admit it. but job disagreed with them. is he a 'cafeteria' person? in the end, god said to job's friends that they did not speak well of him.

    by the way, you said that you are blessed by god & you deny yourself. well, there are plenty of people looking for a job right now. why not deny yourself & give them them your money so you can bless them.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 5:1

    If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Romans 3:20

    "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.." Romans 3:24


    "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Romans 4:2

    "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9

    "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

    "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:11

    "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:24

    "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Galatians 5:4

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, "but once again you provide no valid scripture to show us water baptism is required for one to be saved or that works are necessary to save us or keep us saved.

    Yah, I only gave you 9 Scriptual references re Baptism of Water, one of the 7 Sacraments.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, yes, Titus 3:5-7 also affirms the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, it is a gift of God which we cannot earn by doing works. Plus, he also speaks to the fact we are baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment we are saved, not water baptism but rather spiritual baptism.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.

    Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

    Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

    1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood."

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Titus 3:5-7 â

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, please read Romans 10:9-10 and there are several other verses that don't state that water baptism is required for one to be saved, if it was then all verses that speak to a person being saved would include that requirement, plus your John 3 reference is not even talking about baptism, it's talking about our natural birth and our spiritual birth. And while God does expect His followers to join Him in doing His work, works do not save us or keep us saved, please read Ephesians 2:8-10.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The â

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required."

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?"

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit)."

    So there.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, "but once again you provide no valid scripture to show us water baptism is required for one to be saved or that works are necessary to save us or keep us saved. Yes, Jesus was baptized to set the example that all who are saved should be baptized to show the world that God has saved them and they desire to follow Christ for the rest of their life."

    You have it backwards it is the Baptism that erases original sin from our souls; then we can be saved. I also said in a prior posts there are 3 types of Baptism-not just Baptism of water (the most common form)
    (2) Baptism of desire (like the thief on the cross Remember me when you get to paradise)
    (3) Baptism of blood (martyrdom by anyone who is put to death for Christ) which is still happening today in many parts of the world
    James is Scripture and is solid "Faith without works is dead."

    Here are the works Jesus expects of us:

    Corporal Works of Mercy:

    To feed the hungry;
    To give drink to the thirsty;
    To clothe the naked;
    To harbour the harbourless;
    To visit the sick;
    To ransom the captive;
    To bury the dead.

    The Spiritual Works of Mercy are:

    To instruct the ignorant;
    To counsel the doubtful;
    To admonish sinners;
    To bear wrongs patiently;
    To forgive offences willingly;
    To comfort the afflicted;
    To pray for the living and the dead.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "More lies from the Catholic cult. Paul wrote those epistles."

    Correct and we cannonized him a Saint for his efforts.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "What for? We wrote those passages as well as the others."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    More lies from the Catholic cult. Paul wrote those epistles.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, but once again you provide no valid scripture to show us water baptism is required for one to be saved or that works are necessary to save us or keep us saved. Yes, Jesus was baptized to set the example that all who are saved should be baptized to show the world that God has saved them and they desire to follow Christ for the rest of their life.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You Catholics really should read Romans chapters 3 through 5. It really puts James in it's place."

    What for? We wrote those passages as well as the others.
    James is in his place ... in Heaven as a Saint which we are still striving for. God Bless, St. James

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, so now your saying Jesus wasn't saved and needed to be baptized"

    More gobbledegook. Jesus IS the Savior. His very name means "He who saves us from our sins." Jesus is God and does not sin so He does not need to be saved. His Baptism in the Jordan was to show an example to us on what we should do.

    (Wow, this heresy is worse than I could ever have imagined, i.e., God needing to be saved)

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:44 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, so now your saying Jesus wasn't saved and needed to be baptized, you might want to read your Bible and see why He told John what His purpose was for being baptized. If anything Jesus affirms that water baptism follows a person being saved as opposed to saving a person. Plus, you need to read James as well in order to see that the point he was making is that if a person claims to be saved and yet shows no desire or willfully chooses to not join God in doing His work and will, then that is a good indicator he has no faith. Works neither save us or keep us saved.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You Catholics really should read Romans chapters 3 through 5. It really puts James in it's place.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "James knows what he said and does not need an interpreter to say what he does not mean...faith without works is dead is straightforward..."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And Paul knows what he says and does not need an interpreter to say what he does not mean. For by faith we are saved, and not of works lest any man should boast.

    Or when he says Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


    Or when he says Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    or where he says What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I don't think Jesus' example for us with John the Baptizer in the Jordon was because He just wanted to go swimming."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Speaking of which...how was Jesus baptized? By dunking. I wish Catholics followed Jesus' example like they claim they do.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, James no where says that our works save us, he does say that where there are no works for God then chances are that person is not truly saved."

    James knows what he said and does not need an interpreter to say what he does not mean...faith without works is dead is straightforward (without twisting it into Martin Luther's aberrations)

    What James says in the Epistle. And this passage from Scripture is probably the most controversial in the whole Bible. So much so that Martin Luther considered throwing the whole book of James out of the Bible.

    Sure if it does not fit one's preconceived ideas (not Jesus') - change it...like when Martin added "...for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory" to Christ's Our Father (now that's really bold) Especially if one considers the Bible "innerant." The correct version of the Our Father is in the Catholic Bibles.

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, He enters us the moment we are saved, the moment we are saved we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, this is our born again experience. This is totally a spiritual experience and is not water baptism."


    I don't think Jesus' example for us with John the Baptizer in the Jordon was because He just wanted to go swimming.

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, He enters us the moment we are saved, the moment we are saved we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, this is our born again experience. This is totally a spiritual experience and is not water baptism."

    "
    It is also in Luke 9:57-62

    Ver. 57. Follow thee, &c. Although the Sovereign Lord of all is most munificent, yet he does not lavish his gifts on all without distinction, but bestows them on the worthy only. When, therefore, this man offered to follow Christ, he answers him by telling him, that all who follow him, must daily take up their cross, and renounce the conveniences of this life. Thus he mentions what was reprehensible in his person. There appears likewise great presumption in his conduct, as he did not petition to be admitted, as other Jews did, but seems to claim the honour of the apostleship; an honour which none must assume, but such as are called by God. (Hebrews v.)"

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Protestants are just as much of the Church as the Catholics. Catholicism is just another denomination among many.

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, He enters us the moment we are saved, the moment we are saved we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, this is our born again experience. This is totally a spiritual experience and is not water baptism.

  • Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagator says:
    and chdldry agrees with this statement:

    >>"Could not the incarnate God make an exception to baptism by water and use the man's own blood that was poured out like the blood of Jesus while he repented?"<<

    Here is a line of 'reason' that is sure to run to error.

    Does God make "exceptions" to what is written in His Word?

    Not if He intends to stay true to His Word, intends not to be a respector of persons and intends to be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow... as He has already promised in His Word. The Word of God will not be broken, He upholds it and doesn't change it.

    It would be a lot more logical to assume that water baptism is not a prerequisite to salvation if it was not required for the thief on the cross next to Jesus to be with Him in Paradise that day.

    Once we start looking for "exceptions" in the Bible for this or that circumstance to confirm our own misbeliefs, we run into false doctrine that can and will lead you away from the truth of God.

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