Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Church|Tue, Jun. 23 2009 08:06 AM EDT

ELCA Head Calls for '50 Days of Prayer' Amid Sexuality Debate

By Eric Young|Christian Post Reporter

The head of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) is asking for members of the nation’s largest Lutheran body to devote more time to prayer and the study of Scripture over the 50 days leading up to its 2009 assembly.

The ELCA Churchwide Assembly, which convenes every two years, is the denomination’s highest legislative authority and is scheduled to meet in Minneapolis starting Aug. 17.

This year’s gathering will be particularly significant as the denomination is expected to adopt its first statement on human sexuality based on proposals that conservative Lutherans have rejected as ones that would liberalize the denomination's stance on homosexuality.

Earlier this year, the Task Force for ELCA Studies on Sexuality released a long-awaited report acknowledging that there is neither a consensus nor an emerging one in the denomination on homosexuality. At the same time, the task force recommended that individual congregations be allowed to choose whether to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to be ordained.

Currently, the ELCA allows the ordination of gays and lesbians if they remain celibate.

"They (the proposals) clearly imply that same-sex blessings and the ordination and rostering of homosexual persons in committed relationships are acceptable within the ELCA," noted a conservative group of Lutheran scholars and church leaders in a letter cautioning voting members against changing the denomination's current position on same-sex blessings and the ordination of partnered gays.

"The teaching of the church will be changed," warned the letter mailed last month to the assembly’s 1,045 voting members. "We should not make such an important decision without clear biblical and theological support."

As the sexuality issue has created significant rifts in other denominations and also put a strain on ELCA, the Rev. Mark S. Hanson, ELCA’s presiding bishop, encouraged all members – those attending the assembly and those not attending – to take part in “50 Days of Prayer” to give public witness that ELCA is a church united in evangelical mission for the sake of the world.

"Even when we are not of one mind about all the matters to be decided by the assembly, we have a marvelous opportunity as a church body to witness to the common source of our hope,” stated Hanson in an announcement Monday.

“I invite your prayers for the sake of that mission and the work of the churchwide assembly," he added.

With 4.7 million members, ELCA is the largest Lutheran church body in the United States and the fourth largest Protestant body.

Aside from acting on a proposed social statement on human sexuality and a recommendation on ministry policies, ELCA voting members will consider various churchwide program proposals, conduct elections and consider memorials and resolutions.

The 50-day countdown to the 2009 ELCA Churchwide Assembly officially begins next Monday and is accompanied by resources at www.ELCA.org/50days.

Throughout the 50 days, members are being asked to pray daily; meet in weekly groups, use daily Scripture readings for reflection, hymn and prayer, and use suggested petitions for prayers during worship.

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  • Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show wowie: "Rev, In answer to your question, ... lol :o)" Thanks! hide

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:36 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    They made an arrest tonight. The boy who did it (as proven on camera) was only 17 years old. The girl is still listen in critical condition, so we must pray for her as well as this young man. He will be tried as an adult on numerous charges, the biggest being attempted murder, since he shot at another 17 year old. Lord, show us how to end this violence in our society!

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    I pray that she recovers completely without any permanent disabilities. Children hold a special place in His heart, and I know He weeps over this tragedy. God be with her and her family, and bring those who shot her to repentance. God save their souls.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    No update yet, I keep on checking the news but they haven't said anything new yet.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, Genesis 1:31, "God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day." If sickness, death, disease, and destruction were upon the earth God would not have seen all creation as very good.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, there are accounts in the Bible that are meant to be taken literally and some that are not meant to be taken literally, some of the latter are very obvious such as Jesus saying we are to hate our parents, spouse, and self if we're to be His disciple and in many cases such as parables we're forewarned not to take the account literally. But when it comes to sharing the ages of people in the Bible those are meant to be taken literally and if you'll notice the further we get from the Creation account the ages shorten since as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve sickness, disease, death, and destruction enter God's creation causing the length of life to shorten as well.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike, I'm praying for that baby and her family, do you have any updates?

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Rev, In answer to your question, Prophet(who dan knows quite well is a HE, that might tell you something about him) and believer step on dans toes quite often...that's why he singled them out lol :o) hide

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, any news update on this young girl?

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Just LEAVE these gay activist denoms. It's as simple as that. ELCA is dooming itself by becoming like the world on celebrating gay culture. We are simply watching the rebuilding of Sodom and Gomorrah. DON'T ENTER THEM. STAY OUT of gay denoms!!! hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Danpat1_2000: Be careful with Prophet (she makes up a ton of stuff hoping you won't check) Believer is more reliable; however he is trapped by "the only truth is in Scripture." What about Daniel Paul, rolln4him, and weekenderman? hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, thanks for sharing that urgent prayer concern and know that I have indeed prayed for her and her family and will continue to do so, believer

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, although you won't find the word Trinity you will find that it is clearly taught in the scriptures unlike the many extra-biblical teachings of roman catholics which have absolutely no valid biblical support whatsoever!

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ***urgent attention***

    A 5 year old girl was shot in the head tonight in Baltimore when she got in the middle of a gang shoot out. She is in critical condition, and needs our prayers. PLEASE pray for the Lord to take mercy on this little girl and to bless her family with his peace. As a kindergarten teacher in Baltimore I am torn up about this news...the thought of an innocent child being gunned down breaks my heart. We need to pray for an end to gang violence, and for the safety of all children who are forced to grow up in violent communities through no fault of their own. Jesus protect our innocent children, show us the way to heal their hu

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, in a sense we are sitting in God's lap since we're told in Hebrews that because we have been washed in the blood of Christ through salvation we have direct access to the Throne of God and can bring our concerns straight to God, we don't need a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope, or dead saint we can go directly into the Throne Room of God thanks to Christ shedding His blood for us on the cross of Calvary!!!

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, what part of original autographs do you not understand? Plus according to roman catholic teaching you're not qualified to prove anything when it comes to the Word of God or at least that's what you keep telling those of us who adhere to sola scriptura!!

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Paul also said "Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning." I'll say - BO sent Joey "Duh" Biden to Baghdad hoping they'll keep him. Rumors are that they make him a permanent Nursing Home resident with a full AlQuaida staff of hot and cold running Burqas. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "--a Christian is someone who has been born again BY GOD (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23..."

    Yes, and when you have the first Bishop of Rome's word for it, you know it is true. Did you know that Peter is mentioned 195 times in the Bible - more than all the other Apostles put together?

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "there are several of us who believe that the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, literally God's Word.

    This is already been proven not true by many Protestant and Catholic Theologians and Historians (see my post above) So these "several" are wrong and promoting "error" or heresy. They make up anything they want and say "this is what God says" as if they are sitting on His lap. A boo for this. You interpretation is as good as their interpretation (nothing wrong with the Bible--it's the interpreters who are "short-circuiting."

    I love the Psalms; they relax me and show the love God has for us especially in times of "trouble." Incidentally, you won't find "Rapture" in the Bible either. Check for yourself, or "Trinity" for that matter.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, literally God's Word."

    I can prove this (inerrant) is false immediatley. The King James version of the Bible adds (from Martin Luther's scribblings in the margin of his prayer book): "For Thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory" to the Our Father." [Jesus own Words]

    The Douay Rheims has the correct Words of Jesus' prayer on how we should pray to the Father; so changing Jesus' words and repeating the error over the past iseveral centuries without making the "correction" is just "stubborness." There are Protestants on line that are honest "appealing to other Protestant denominations" to admit the error and correct it. I can give you the Web site from my research if you want it?

    Point two: There is also a big controversy among Archeologists and Theologians that the "Red" Sea was mistaken by the "Reed" Sea (up further North for the "parting."

    Catholics don't really care because they are not "Literalists"- they believing that Scripture is "inerrant" only in matters of "faith and morals" and not subject to "individual interpretation" - because the Holy Spirit, not even the Lord can "hold two opposing concepts" at the same time - it is a Logic 101 error.

    God Bless

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Does the Bible actually say that? I'm not insisting that it is not there, but I don't see it on a quick glance."

    Be careful with Prophet (she makes up a ton of stuff hoping you won't check) Believer is more reliable; however he is trapped by "the only truth is in Scripture."

    He'll say he isn't but if you quote history like the Roman Historian "Tacitus" or the early Church Fathers--he'll say "this is "extra-biblical" and not true; but it says nowhere in the Bible the only truth is in the Bible or that "extra-biblical" is false. You will go around in circles with these geezers.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "*If* the phrase "dying thou shalt die" means "you will die," then this did not happen. Eve and Adam did *not* die "on the day that they ate of it."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

    But they did die the moment they ate of the fruit. Him who has ears to hear, let him understand. To the pagans, it is a mystery.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show believer wrote: "prior to their sin there was no sickness or disease" Does the Bible actually say that? I'm not insisting that it is not there, but I don't see it on a quick glance. believer also wrote "in fact the Bible records that some did live to be hundreds of years old." To me you seem to be waffling on the literal / not literal. For my part, I am very clear there are passages in the Bible that are simply not literally true, and that the original writers never meant for them to be taken that way. In my opinion, if we insist that Christians include only those people who take the Bible literally, then we change the nature of Christianity in a way that I think is bad. That would define Christianity as superstition - the very opposite of "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." So not only is it not necessary to take the Bible literally, it is not desirable, and God never intended it. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, and I have yet to hear anyone say we are to take all of what is written in the Word of God literally, but there are several of us who believe that the Bible in its original autographs is the God-breathed, inerrant, plenary Word of God, literally God's Word.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, the moment they ate the fruit they died spiritually, the personal relationship they had with God had been broken by sin and although we don't know with all certainty if they had to eat from the Tree of Life to gain eternal life we do know that they did not eat from the Tree of Life and were put out of the Garden of Eden so they wouldn't and eventually died physically. And since prior to their sin there was no sickness or disease in all of creation it was indeed possible and in fact the Bible records that some did live to be hundreds of years old.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "God didn't strike Adam dead on the spot. He lived a long time, populated the earth, etc. Sometimes God's decrees are a long time coming. But they come." This is actually an example of at least an apparent internal conflict within the Bible. It says "the day that you eat of it..." *If* the phrase "dying thou shalt die" means "you will die," then this did not happen. Eve and Adam did *not* die "on the day that they ate of it." Either God was mistaken, or He changed His mind, or the phrase did not mean what we generally assume it to mean. Isaac Asimov offers an interesting interpretation. He suggests that the phrase "dying thou shalt die" ("thou shalt surely die" in KJV) actually means that the consequence of eating from the Tree of Knowledge was that "the day that they ate of it," they acquired the *knowledge* (tree of knowledge, remember) that they would die. They were already going to die regardless, but like non-human animals, they did not until then know that it was already a certainty. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Thanks JG for the kind tone of your post. I hope everyone is having a great day. I'll start with this question: "Would you be willing to lay it all on the line and beg Him for radical, supernatural, divine revelation, and a total willingness to repent and lay it down if He showed you in fact that the bible, as is, is true?" Just like Mike85 said, I *have* done this, and God did give me that radical revelation. He very clearly showed me the truth in the Bible, and also the tuth that He wants us to use our common sense when we read the Bible. There are some things in the Bible that are not literally true. Those guys in the Old Testament did not live 200 to 900 years. That figure of speech meant something to the readers of the time, and maybe somebody now knows what that was, although I confess that I don't. Maybe something like "their family records were kept for 900 years." But it isn't a fundamental requirement of God's plan for my life that I have to understand what that phrase means. Since there are some simple declarative statements like this that are not literally true, we are not serving God at our best if we tell other people they are going to Hell if they don't take every word of the Bible literally. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:42 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    mike85, although I can't say it's not God's will for you to be homosexual, God's Word clearly says we are not to sin to include sexual intimacy outside of marriage.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    mike85, there was nothing about holier than thou in that passage and in fact just the opposite, if it was about holier than thou then the mature Christians would have been encouraged to continue doing their thing and maybe the weaker Christians will eventually catch up with you, but it said just the opposite that mature Christians are to be empathetic and caring towards weaker Christians. And the reality is with Christians who are truly growing in their faith there will be other Christians who are more mature than they are and Christians who are less mature than they are. But if you're using this paassage to say that other Christians are to condone the sins or the sinful lifestyle of other Christians you are totally misinterpreting this passage.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:55 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Jacqueline, I have done that before. In college I went on retreats a few times a year and prayed and fasted and sat in silence with only the Bible to talk to me for a few days. It was not God's will for me to change, and it floors me when some on here claim that I just didn't try hard enough.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:25 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    Rom 14:1-12
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    WE are taught to abstain from judging a fellow Christian in matters that are non-essential. We are not to avoid fellowship with him, or ignore him. Instead we are to accept, to love, and to be in harmony with him.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    *who is a fellow christian?

    --a Christian is someone who has been born again BY GOD (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is "...it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God's Word (1 John 2:4, 10).


    ----What Is Saving Faith? (1 John)
    http://www.james-dave.com/savingfaithpfv.html


    *what are the essentials and non-essentials?

    Certain Christian doctrines constitute the core of the faith. Central doctrines include the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.

    Scripture teaches that the beliefs mentioned above are of central importance (e.g., Matt. 28:19; John 8:24; 1 Cor. 15; Eph. 2:8-10).

    Because these central doctrines define the character of Christianity, one cannot be saved and deny these.

    Central doctrines should not be confused with peripheral issues, about which Christians may legitimately disagree. Peripheral (i.e. non-essential) doctrines include such issues as the timing of the tribulation, the method of baptism, or the structure of church government. For example, one can be wrong about the identity of "the spirits in prison" 1 Peter 3:19) or about the timing of the rapture and still go to heaven, but one cannot deny salvation by grace or the deity of Christ (John 8:24) and be saved.

    Chart: Essential Doctrines of the Christian Faith:

    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/159-chart-of-essential-doctrines-of-christianity
    -----------------------------------------------------

    ..i hope you love to read..
    :O)

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi,

    Questions for HM:

    Hi, hope you are well. I had a great day.

    This is what's been on my mind. Please note I respect you and Mike, I care about you and where you spend eternity, and I am not posting because I love a good argument but out of love and concern. There is no animosity or ill feeling from me whatsoever.

    These thoughts are bugging me: Where are the manuscripts in which homosexuality is not mentioned? We have more ancient manuscripts of the bible than any other works of literature, by tens of thousands. We have a handful of Virgil, Homer, etc., but thousands and thousands of OT and NT manuscripts. They are all virtually exact when compared, and modern bibles always notate variations, which are usually insignificant. Scholars accept Virgil, etc., as authoritative and not corrupted. How much more the O and NT's? And they all have the Leviticus passage. Can you produce any evidence of a manuscript where the infamous edict is omitted? The ancient Hebrew scribes burned any scroll upon which they made a mistake. We only have unadulterated manuscripts.

    Would you, Mike, or anyone be willing to totally surrender to the Lord in fasting and prayer asking for His guidance, not the Christians on this thread, for how HE feels about homosexuality and whether it is His plan for mankind and for you? He tells us that if we seek, we will find, and if we search for Him with ALL our heart, He will be found of us. Would you be willing to lay it all on the line and beg Him for radical, supernatural, divine revelation, and a total willingness to repent and lay it down if He showed you in fact that the bible, as is, is true?

    If you (God forbid) found yourselves in eternal torment for rejecting His word and His offer of salvation according to the whole counsel of the bible--would you feel it had been worth it? Or would you regret it? Is the lifestyle, the community, the identity, the sexuality all worth it? Could it be possible that it plainly is not His design and plan and best for you and it is a counterfeit to keep you from His best, His plan, His blessing, and His salvation? Would it have been worth it?

    These aren't rhetorical. I truly am asking for permission to know the answers.

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Uh..no. It says you are not to judge another of God's servants as being lesser than you. Wherever you got your holier than thou story from, it most certainly didn't come from this passage. I thought you read the Bible literally?

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, it says that more mature Christians should not do anything that would lead a weaker Christian astray, that even though a mature Christian can do something without falling into sin a weaker Christian may not be able to so the mature Christian should be willing to give up something in order to keep the weaker Christian from sinning in that area of their life.

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Paul also said "Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism."

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    It is interesting that Paul says: Accept him whose faith is weak without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, while another man's, whose faith is weak, allows him to eat only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on the man who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the one who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    How do you interpret that, you who so quickly judge those in the gay community?

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mike,

    All I am saying is that the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin and that those who willfully indulge in that lifestyle will not inherit the kingdom of God. I don't see your name mentioned anywhere in the Bible, do you?

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I'm replying primarily to Prophet, but making sure you also hear me loud and clear.

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, are you willfully living in sin or a sinful lifestyle, if not then my post should not upset you?

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I've said many times before my Christianity is not up for judgment by you or Believer, so say whatever you wish, you only condemn yourselves with your judgment.

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    Oh, I've said that a number of times. But mike didn't like that so I figure I'd water it down a little to ease mike's sensibilities....

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    prophet, I would take it a step further, if someone who claims to be a Christian is willfully living in sin there is a high probability they're not a Christian at all!

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I agree. Those who proclaim to be a Christian, and yet willfully live in sin, cast a bad light upon Christ. They will be judged for doing so.

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged again?!? Folks, this is ridiculous. I have said nothing offensive, so the flagger has been reported, and WILL be removed from CP if it continues.

    Like I had said, it is sickening that some on here wish to create division in Christianity by pretending they know what is in a man's heart. Someday you will be brought to repentance for such foolish pride.

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jg, and I agree most of the name-calling I believe should be avoided at all costs!

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jg, like you I prefer to erroe on the side of gentleness, but we do have records of not so much harshness but rebuking and reproving, here are some examples; Ephesians 5:11-13, I Timothy 5:20, II Timothy 4:2, Titus 1:10-16 and 2:15.

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "It sickens me that you actively strive to create an us and them mentality with Christianity. You speak like Christianity is impossible for some, and you actively push many on here, who actually do strive to follow Christ, away from Christ with your words and actions. It is sad you believe so strongly that you speak truth."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    What is truly sickening is people who claim to be Christian, who love living in sin and refuse to let it go. That's sickening even to God.

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Mike 85,

    Paul instructed Timothy to be completely given over to doctrine, along with faith, etc. It is right for Prophet and Jehovahnissi, etc., to be sticklers about this. Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword, setting people against each other, because we are in the middle of this cosmic battle for men's eternal souls. Jesus explicitly said that the road leading to life was *narrow* and *difficult* and that there would be *few* who found it. Isn't it narrow-minded and harsh to call homosexuality a sin? Yet that is exactly what Jesus prepared us for: a difficult, narrow road. He said to cut off your HAND if it causes you to sin. Because some on this thread insist on keeping their sins and still claiming Christ, can you blame anyone for calling you out on it? It really is willful delusion, with all due respect. It is a false comfort that will end in terror and I for one, truly care about where you spend eternity, way more than you could imagine.
    Any sin, whatever it is, that we forsake for Christ will be replaced with so much joy and fullness of life, there is no comparison. No sin holds a candle to the riches of repentance.

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Who is already judged? "Whoever does not believe stands condemned already because He has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (john 3 v. 18, NIV). Those who do not believe on Jesus Christ are already judged.

    God's purpose was not to judge the world, even though it was worthy of judgment and condemnation (Rom. 3:10-11; Isa. 53:6). Every one of us stands condemned before God's judgment because we are guilty. We have broken His law. We have rejected the light He has given us.

    Man is already condemned because of his sin. We are already under God's wrath. The emphasis in verse 18 is on the continuing state of unbelief that results in a continuing state of condemnation for the unbeliever.

    The person who refuses to believe is already under God's wrath. Have you believed in Jesus, or have you refused to believe and are still in the category of one who stands condemned by God?

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, you are right about Jesus. He even name-called ("brood of vipers") and He was consumed with zeal for the right treatment of God's house. Homosexuals are abusing the temple of God, as well, that is, their bodies. I agree that some here are presenting a false Christianity that does not save at all. Please show me Scriptures, though, where the apostles, not Jesus, are harsh with men, as many as you can find. I think of Paul telling the rejecting Jews that they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life by rejecting his preaching, and for the disciples to shake off the dust of their sandals against the towns that rejected their preaching, so I see your point, but please persuade me with scripture that the harshness and name-calling on these threads is appropriate. There are so many scriptures commanding gentleness. It is hard to reconcile.

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