Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:12:05 pm ET

Opinion|Wed, Jun. 24 2009 10:05 AM EDT

Government-Run Churches

By Chuck Colson|Christian Post Guest Columnist

In China, Christians have a choice: Join a government-approved church-which is constantly monitored by the authorities-or join an underground church.

Thank heavens things like that don’t happen in the West, you may be thinking. Think again. In Britain, the government has begun sticking its nose in church business, telling churches what to do.

According to the Daily Telegraph, starting next year, the British government is going to begin forcing churches and other religious institutions to hire open, practicing homosexuals. It will happen under the provisions of the so-called Equity Bill, which forbids discrimination against homosexuals or transsexuals.

The law would “cover almost all church employees,” according to Deputy Equities Minster Maria Eagle. “The circumstances in which religious institutions can practice anything less than full equality are few and far between,” Eagle said. Church groups, she said, “cannot claim that everything they run is outside the scope of anti-discrimination law.”

What’s next-regulating the content of sermons? I’m not kidding. According to Eagle, “Members of faith groups have a role in making the argument in their own communities for greater” acceptance of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgendered people.

Maybe it would simplify things if the government simply wrote the sermons for the pastors.

The Equity Law could lead to some interesting situations. What happens if a church, under pressure, hires a gay youth minister-and orders him to teach kids about the sinfulness of homosexual behavior? And I can only imagine the reaction of a British mosque when the religion police orders it to hire a lesbian secretary.

Neil Addison, a Catholic barrister who is an expert on religious discrimination laws, told the Telegraph that the Equity Law “is a threat to religious liberty.” “What we are losing,” he said, “is the right for [churches] to make free choices.”

He’s right. To put it more bluntly, the government is beginning to run the churches. And if they succeed, it will be the end of religious freedom in Britain.

Legislation like the Equity Law should concern Americans. So-called “social reforms” that begin in Europe soon wash up on our own shores.

And then, what will happen to the Church? Will we put our congregations under the authority of Caesar? Or will we resist and, if need be, abandon our elegant buildings and, like our faithful brethren in China, form underground churches?

The Bible teaches that the followers of Christ will be tested. We ought to be in prayer for the church in Great Britain, asking God to guide it as the government bears down.

Second, we ought to be preparing for similar laws here. Many churches are already under great pressure by homosexual activists to violate their own teachings under the guise of “fairness”-a much abused word.

This, by the way, is not a hysterical rant. The threat is very real.

Third, we ought to remind our neighbors that the First Amendment was written not just to protect the government from churches, but more so to protect churches from the government.

_______________________________________________________

From BreakPoint, June 18, 2009, Copyright 2009, Prison Fellowship Ministries. Reprinted with the permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced or distributed without the express written permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries.
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  • Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:17 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Al,

    How interesting! On an article that's been dead for almost a month, you add five (5) new comments.

    I guess it's easier to do that than answer the questions given in response to your other posts, such as "Anti-Religious Group Sues..." and "Mass. Sues U.S. over DOMA".

    When you're finished here, why not come back and answer all the questions addressed to you?

  • Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show There are plenty of good reasons for promoting traditional marriage as the preferred family unit-at least, for those legitimately concerned with the social, cultural, and economic welfare of our society. After all, research conducted over the past several decades confirms what common sense has shown us for generations: By every possible measure-including overall satisfaction, the total well-being of children, physical safety, economic security, earning power, mental, physical, and emotional health, sexual satisfaction, and familial harmony-traditional marriage is far and away the domestic relationship that yields the best outcomes for individuals and for society. The bottom line is that traditional marriage provides essential benefits that no other domestic arrangement can match, not only for the adults involved, but for the most vulnerable among us-our children. --------------------------------------------------------- In response: Conner lets see the valid secular proof to back this up! You make blanket statements and then fail to put up a single valid secular bit of proof to support your agenda. Stop thumping and start producing the backup for this rhetoric, it is a non stop broken record of fundie ideology and it doesn't hold water. Lets see you publish secular studies to support your agenda, lets see you put up some secular material that actually proves your points. Babble on Conner as your membership dwindles and the people leave in droves away from your brand of ideology and embrace reality and beliefs that foster True Christian ideals and not hatred of others. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies fear the truth! TFR hide

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show There are plenty of good reasons for promoting traditional marriage as the preferred family unit-at least, for those legitimately concerned with the social, cultural, and economic welfare of our society. After all, research conducted over the past several decades confirms what common sense has shown us for generations: By every possible measure-including overall satisfaction, the total well-being of children, physical safety, economic security, earning power, mental, physical, and emotional health, sexual satisfaction, and familial harmony-traditional marriage is far and away the domestic relationship that yields the best outcomes for individuals and for society. The bottom line is that traditional marriage provides essential benefits that no other domestic arrangement can match, not only for the adults involved, but for the most vulnerable among us-our children. --------------------------------------------------------- In response: Conner lets see the valid secular proof to back this up! You make blanket statements and then fail to put up a single valid secular bit of proof to support your agenda. Stop thumping and start producing the backup for this rhetoric, it is a non stop broken record of fundie ideology and it doesn't hold water. Lets see you publish secular studies to support your agenda, lets see you put up some secular material that actually proves your points. Babble on Conner as your membership dwindles and the people leave in droves away from your brand of ideology and embrace reality and beliefs that foster True Christian ideals and not hatred of others. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies fear the truth! TFR hide

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Daniel Paul »Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:07 pm

    "http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ The real stories of hate crimes are found on this blog"

    I noticed you don't have the hate crime story of the senior lady who was slapped by a gay man because she had a cross. It was caught on film and shown on the news. I guess it's not a hate crime if a gay person does it.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    In response: No one is stopping you from posting it in response on http://alockslee.blogspot.com/

    So put up the link and lets investigate your story.

    What are the complete facts of this alleged incident? Until you posted on it I was unaware of it and you haven't give one single link about it to back up your post.

    So lets see the links and the complete account from secular sources like a NEWS CHANNEL VIDEO or NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth and Reality Not Fundie Fantasy

    TFR
    07/04/09 (Obama Pledges LGBT equality)
    I would rally like for someone to explain what actual "undermining would occur if full equality were given to the LGBT community? Please do so and list the secular reasons, not the religious ideology.


    I understand the position of those who feel their religious values are somehow threatened but seriously, if a person has equality and it able to simply be able to exist what is the harm to any fundamentalist or evangelical?

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ You can respond here too
    TFR

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    oldstudent »Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:13 pm For one, lets get rid of non-profit status so we can no longer be held hostage by that regulation.
    If we take the govt $, we are bound by the rules, even when illegally enforced.
    As for Alockslee's blog, since he can't distinguish between evangelicals and fundamentalists (the derogatory usage of the term obviously), the commentary there can't be taken seriously; especially the 'death throes' thread. Many have spoken those words previously
    and all have been proven incorrect. Let fantasy be on his blog, in a couple of years nobody will be reading it anyway.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    In response: If you live in America then you are subject to the laws of it. If you don't like having to follow the rules of secular reality, then find another non-reality based place to live. Until then stop trying to force others to convert to your ideology.

    Thanks for the promotion of my blog as your comments prove it to be Truth and reality. It is quite interesting that those who live in a fantasy NOTW existence can't deal with reality. Religion has a place to many people, but it does not replace reality it helps guide you through it, something fundies and evangelicals forget and try to force others into accepting only to find the real world is still there and they can't fantasize their way out of it. Whether a fundamentalist or evangelical it still boils down to fascist ideology.

    The real problem for fundies and evangelicals against reality is their programming prevents them from dealing with the world and the people in it. Instead of Practicing Christianity, they have corrupted it into something that doesn't resemble what was started over 2,000 years ago. One day they will have no members, the programming will no longer work and people will realize that religion is a guide through life and not a fantasy existence that prevents it.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth not fantasy!!

    TFR

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Daniel Paul »Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:07 pm "http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ The real stories of hate crimes are found on this blog" I noticed you don't have the hate crime story of the senior lady who was slapped by a gay man because she had a cross. It was caught on film and shown on the news. I guess it's not a hate crime if a gay person does it. --------------------------------------------------------- In response: No one is stopping you from posting it in response on http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ So put up the link and lets investigate your story. What are the complete facts of this alleged incident? Until you posted on it I was unaware of it and you haven't give one single link about it to back up your post. So lets see the links and the complete account from secular sources like a NEWS CHANNEL VIDEO or NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth and Reality Not Fundie Fantasy TFR hide

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:07 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ The real stories of hate crimes are found on this blog"

    I noticed you don't have the hate crime story of the senior lady who was slapped by a gay man because she had a cross. It was caught on film and shown on the news. I guess it's not a hate crime if a gay person does it.

  • Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "taking an active effort to call things properly is hardly bullying anyone! Speaking concisely on issues that few here are even willing to admit to going on is not bullying."

    Thanks for proving my point. One man's "speaking concisely on issues" is another persons "hate speech". This is why separtation of church and state exists to keep government from ruling over the beliefs of the people. Democracy is a reflection of it's people...not the other way around.

    "Trying to voice the truth over fabrications and lies is not bullying."

    Which is why I keep voicing the truth about what you post. :D Your posts remind me of a teacher I had in HS who said the "miracle" of the parting of the Red Sea really wasn't much of a miracle because they crossed at the Sea of Reeds which was only 18" deep. When I asked, he did acknowledge what secular text also confirmed Pharohs army died there. So, I asked him, "which is a bigger miracle? That God parted the Red Sea or that all of pharohs army drowned in 18" of water.

    Your arguements on your website are without merit to say the least. Your site is full of bigotry and hate speech. You play the victim well while you are victimizing others in the name of tolerance. If I posted a site like yours but made the target gays...people like you would be wanting it taken down. So, whose the hypocrite here? One need look no further than your website....

  • Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:52 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey DP,

    I can see where your corporation which is not a church has some advantages. I say no tax advantages so we have no legal tentacles that we have agreed to in order to get the advantage.

    Happy b-day by the way. I know I'm a bit late if memory serves...

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Alocksee, It looks like you started to reply to me last week, but since then Criterion (AKA michael-j) has flagged all posts (on every forum!). I'll try once more: I checked out your site; why must one become a subscriber in order to post a comment? And what does your "TFR" stand for? hide

  • Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Daniel Paul »Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:16 pm "Looks like you don't like the same treatment you dish out. My posts are in exactly the same format as those who are trying to force conversion on the rest of us. " Actually, no they're not. Their quite "canned" as we used to say in radio. You post the same variation on a theme to everyone. The responses you post are the same stuff "highly polished compost" the pro-gay agenda throws around day after day. You don't even respond to me differently than you do to believer. Unless we surrender our beliefs to you, you bully us!
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    In response: taking an active effort to call things properly is hardly bullying anyone! Speaking concisely on issues that few here are even willing to admit to going on is not bullying.

    Trying to voice the truth over fabrications and lies is not bullying.

    And finally, having to continually re-post the same responses to counteract the censoring of the whole truth is necessary and it obviously is working since so many are agreeing with me and the technique.

    If you want special treatment then please tell me so I can insert disclaimers about how each response either concerns you or not and then to what extent you need to feel obligated to even read it. Obviously you feel intimidated on this forum by the constant flagging of your responses and feel the need to lash out against me since I am the only one here with enough fortitude to keep going. You needn't attack me if you claim we are on the same side, instead work toward insuring my posts stay up and encourage others to speak up as well to support your position. Until you stop fighting against the position you claim to be on it will continue to enable those who keep you down to do so.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ The real stories of hate crimes are found on this blog
    TFR

  • Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Looks like you don't like the same treatment you dish out. My posts are in exactly the same format as those who are trying to force conversion on the rest of us. "

    Actually, no they're not. Their quite "canned" as we used to say in radio. You post the same variation on a theme to everyone. The responses you post are the same stuff "highly polished compost" the pro-gay agenda throws around day after day. You don't even respond to me differently than you do to believer. Unless we surrender our beliefs to you, you bully us!

    I posted about even letting a lesbian babysit my kids and you post a response like you did? Try leaving the canned arguements and start thinking for yourself.

  • Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:34 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show oldstudent »Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:13 pm For one, lets get rid of non-profit status so we can no longer be held hostage by that regulation. If we take the govt $, we are bound by the rules, even when illegally enforced. As for Alockslee's blog, since he can't distinguish between evangelicals and fundamentalists (the derogatory usage of the term obviously), the commentary there can't be taken seriously; especially the 'death throes' thread. Many have spoken those words previously and all have been proven incorrect. Let fantasy be on his blog, in a couple of years nobody will be reading it anyway. -------------------------------------------------------- In response: If you live in America then you are subject to the laws of it. If you don't like having to follow the rules of secular reality, then find another non-reality based place to live. Until then stop trying to force others to convert to your ideology. Thanks for the promotion of my blog as your comments prove it to be Truth and reality. It is quite interesting that those who live in a fantasy NOTW existence can't deal with reality. Religion has a place to many people, but it does not replace reality it helps guide you through it, something fundies and evangelicals forget and try to force others into accepting only to find the real world is still there and they can't fantasize their way out of it. Whether a fundamentalist or evangelical it still boils down to fascist ideology. The real problem for fundies and evangelicals against reality is their programming prevents them from dealing with the world and the people in it. Instead of Practicing Christianity, they have corrupted it into something that doesn't resemble what was started over 2,000 years ago. One day they will have no members, the programming will no longer work and people will realize that religion is a guide through life and not a fantasy existence that prevents it. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth not fantasy!! TFR hide

  • Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:25 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    oldstudent »Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:13 pm For one, lets get rid of non-profit status so we can no longer be held hostage by that regulation. If we take the govt $, we are bound by the rules, even when illegally enforced.
    As for Alockslee's blog, since he can't distinguish between evangelicals and fundamentalists (the derogatory usage of the term obviously), the commentary there can't be taken seriously; especially the 'death throes' thread. Many have spoken those words previously and all have been proven incorrect. Let fantasy be on his blog, in a couple of years nobody will be reading it anyway.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    In response: If you live in America then you are subject to the laws of it. If you don't like having to follow the rules of secular reality, then find another non-reality based place to live. Until then stop trying to force others to convert to your ideology.

    Thanks for the promotion of my blog as your comments prove it to be Truth and reality. It is quite interesting that those who live in a fantasy NOTW existence can't deal with reality. Religion has a place to many people, but it does not replace reality it helps guide you through it, something fundies and evangelicals forget and try to force others into accepting only to find the real world is still there and they can't fantasize their way out of it. Whether a fundamentalist or evangelical it still boils down to fascist ideology.

    The real problem for fundies and evangelicals against reality is their programming prevents them from dealing with the world and the people in it. Instead of Practicing Christianity, they have corrupted it into something that doesn't resemble what was started over 2,00 years ago. One day they will have no members, the programming will no longer work and people will realize that religion is a guide through life and not a fantasy existence that prevents it.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth not fantasy!!

    TFR

  • Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:09 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Daniel Paul »Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:24 pm In some ways I'm hoping the hate crimes law does pass so we can turn in people like Alockslee's for the hate which spews from page after page. I guess he simply views us through his own behavior. ----------------------------------------------------------- In response: Looks like you don't like the same treatment you dish out. My posts are in exactly the same format as those who are trying to force conversion on the rest of us. Don't like what you read? Then change from your hatred based ideology and prove it by posting from a real Christian perspective instead of the bigoted approach you continually push. After you have undone all the damage you have committed along with the others with you then I won't need to comment because there won't be a need to speak out against it. With the vast amounts of people leaving the evangelical hate base it shouldn't be that much longer before the restoration of America can begin. It will just need finishing up on their closure and then the real True Christians will be able exist sans the fascists pretending to be Christians like the fundies and evangelicals are. Remember nothing in the Matthew Sheppard Act interferes with speech so passage of it won't affect my posting, what it will do is to help prosecute those who carry out their hatred in physical acts against others. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth fundies fear!! TFR hide

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:24 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "For one, lets get rid of non-profit status so we can no longer be held hostage by that regulation."

    Our church is a corporation and not listed as a church for tax purposes. We did this on purpose. Our pastor was a lawyer (and then he repented... we think that's far funnier than he does...) so that was the direction we went when the church was formed.

    Even with that freedom our pastor simply speaks the truth about what the Bible says and tells people to pray about it and vote their conscience.

    In some ways I'm hoping the hate crimes law does pass so we can turn in people like Alockslee's for the hate which spews from page after page. I guess he simply views us through his own behavior.

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    There is a difference between Great Britain and the US, GB has no set constitution as does the US. GB has no 'rights' to freedom of worship as espoused by our constitution.

    We can all see the handwriting on the wall for religious organizations in the US (going the way of Canada and GB) so what are we to do? For one, lets get rid of non-profit status so we can no longer be held hostage by that regulation. If we take the govt $, we are bound by the rules, even when illegally enforced. Second, preach as we should and take the consequences of suffering for Christ as we are promised in Scripture. Last, let God worry about what the end game of the US looks like, only He knows and if it is to go the way of persecution for His Church, He will provide the strength.

    As for Alockslee's blog, since he can't distinguish between evangelicals and fundamentalists (the derogatory usage of the term obviously), the commentary there can't be taken seriously; especially the 'death throes' thread. Many have spoken those words previously and all have been proven incorrect. Let fantasy be on his blog, in a couple of years nobody will be reading it anyway.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Alockslee: Why are you afraid of me? Why do you keep flagging my comments?
    I will repeat what you have flagged: Your blog is full of misspellings and grammatical errors. It seems odd that "ignorant fundies" like me have a higher education level and better communications skills than you.
    Your blog is also a hate site, and you would be comfortable in 1932 berlin.

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Churches in the USA could [in my opinion should] be punished through the tax code when their actions are moving from the sacred to the secular. Gay marriage is a good current example, this is a political and civil rights issue, a secular issue for modern society. If your sect wishes to influence the general secular populace's vote on a civil issue then that church is operating in the CIVIL world and needs to have those laws applied and tax-free status should be forfeit. You want to have 100 acres tax-free in Texas, then keep out of secular rights. You want your 30,000sq ft temple to be Gay-Free, then you are a private club and don't deserve public tax benefits from all citizens. So yes, I agree that there are civil punishments that deserve to burden the behavior of religious bodies in secular society. hide

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alocksee,
    I apologize if my post seemed a bit rude, but postings really leave little room for the nuances in face to face or vocal communication.

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alocksee,
    I'm curious about your postings on this site. Are you here to intentionally insult, troll, or promote your blog? I've read some of your posts and it seems this is your intent, if I'm mistaken please point out your intent. I often differ with some of the postings here, but I refrain from labelling or intentionally being hostile. After all, it's doubtful you're going to change someone's opinion by any of the initial three I listed.

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:23 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "Colson is setting up a straw man here. There is little similarity between Great Britain and the US as regards the church-state relationship."

    Having been raised in the Church and having worked in the ministry I can tell you there have been many attempts over the years to interfer with churches by the government.

    The latest attempt is the "hate crimes" legislation which would include under court precident "mental anguish" which would mean that gays in a church service could sue for "mental anguish" if the pastor says homosexuality is sin.

    http://www.wmit.org/news/hate_crimes_bill.html

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes Ã

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes Ã

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes »
    Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:23 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

    Alocksee,
    You complain about censorship (here and on your blog), but you are not the only one. I've posted to you three times lately, asking you to clarify points you've made. Each time, I get flagged, though I follow all the guidelines of the forum. Since we are probably on opposite ends of the political (and maybe spiritual) spectrum, perhaps you'll realize that censorship cuts both ways. In other words, no one's picking on you.

    Checked out the blog. Seriously, I have to become a subscriber in order to comment? And what does "TFR" stand for?
    --------------------------------------------------------
    I don't control the number of blog options. It gives 3. choices 1. anonymous which allows hackers to backdoor and 2. the host has a way to source back to anyone who tries to hack if they attempt it. 3. no comments. Sorry but people won't let you have your say here, just think what happens on a blog like mine. The Site Host keeps the names and only your chosen handle or nickname shows.

    TFR = T hanks F or R eading or Thanks For Reading

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:37 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Folks that oppose Colson - Fire all the ad hominem's you want at me and feel free to commit other fallacies such as the genetic fallacy that klm68 commits, but I think that just points to the fact that you realize the corner you've painted yourself into. My questions still stand unanswered - is it every OK to discriminate and where is your ultimate foundation for saying that such a practice is wrong?

    Of course we discriminate. Forgot the political hot-button the word has become - it means to make a *meaningful* distinction; to be able to smartly say "Not this, but that" and articulate why the distinction is important. We discriminate against juvenile sex offenders by not letting them come within N yards of playgrounds - any cries of objection here? Of course not. Why? Because we recognize there are distinctions in people that matter, and those distinctions can threaten something that's precious.

    So my end points are (1) you need a better argument that 'discrimination is wrong' when it comes to forcing churches to hire practicing homosexuals; (2) you need a better foundation for your position other than "because the government says so"

    Peace.

  • Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    math


    << Each time, I get flagged, though I follow all the guidelines of the forum>>

    I would say almost all of the flagging has little to do with violations of CP guidlines, but due to censorship by some individuals that cannot handle the truth or opposing ideas.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Alocksee, You complain about censorship (here and on your blog), but you are not the only one. I've posted to you three times lately, asking you to clarify points you've made. Each time, I get flagged, though I follow all the guidelines of the forum. Since we are probably on opposite ends of the political (and maybe spiritual) spectrum, perhaps you'll realize that censorship cuts both ways. In other words, no one's picking on you. Checked out the blog. Seriously, I have to become a subscriber in order to comment? And what does "TFR" stand for? hide

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    schumacr »Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:56 pm First, to assert that Colson is wrong simply because he omits the fact that clergy are (currently) excluded from the upcoming mandates mentioned in the story is absurd thinking.
    So the claim here seems to be that to discriminate is 'wrong'. So those opposed to Colson - you'd be fine with the NAACP having to hire KKK members as youth workers; Jewish groups being forced to admit neo-Nazis or Hamas members into its ranks; and prostitutes serving in the offices of organizations dedicated to sexual abstinence. You'd champion that? And please no "But that's different!" because it really isn't - discrimination is discrimination according to you. Or does this die the death of a thousand qualifying cuts?
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    In response: Thanks for admitting that Chuck Colson had omitted facts and fabricated his position on falsehoods.

    You second point is indeed absurd thinking! The English Resolution is not the same as your examples, but it is typical for fundamentalists to use extreme examples that have nothing to do with the topic. It is so common that it no longer anything but expected since your position is simply unsupportable and nothing can be produced to further it.

    The better approach is to simply accept that equality is inevitable and nothing from your ideology is valid to prevent people from obtaining it, nor are any of your continued efforts to force conversion of others into your ideology working either. The public has been made aware of what the basis of the fundamental/evangelical movement is and we, the general public are not going to agree with it period then end. If you want to condition your followers to engage in that conduct then they will subject to hate crime legislation and deal with the consequences of their actions.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies fear this blog as it exposes their plans and they can't censor it!!!

    TFR

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Cannibalism is virtually nonexistent, and has very rarely existed outside of ritual practices (essentially, religious justification). Other practices that so horrify you (e.g., suttee) are also justified on religious grounds.

    Nietzsche was not an evolutionary biologist and, clearly, neither are you. Nothing I said conflicts with mainstream evolutionary thought, regardless of what evangelical ministers tell you.

    From what you say, you run with a pretty corrupt and dishonest crowd. You might benefit from finding yourself a better group of friends.

    But you're using the standard technique - generate argument with outrageous statements that are off-topic, in order to avoid discussing the real issues. The topic was Colson's assertion that in the U.S., the government will soon be regulating religious practices. That's really so silly as to be beneath any comment at all.

    I'm done with this topic, so don't bother replying to me. But if you like, by all means take my words out of context, distort what I've said, and ignore the real points. Then you can imagine that you're clever, and feel smugly satisfied at the thought of having impressed your friends.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alockslee: I see that you took my proofreading advice on your blog. Now, I ask you, who is more ignorant-the "ignorant fundie" (your words!) or the person who takes advice from one!

    Your blog is a hate site, pure and simple. You would have fit in great in Berlin in 1932.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:04 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    klm68 -

    Thanks for your reply. First, you say the golden rule is universal. Not sure about that: in some cultures they love their neighbors and in others they prefer to eat them. And don't forget things like the practice of suttee in India (widow burning) - how did 'love your neighbor' (like your wife) miss them? And if such a thing is innate, where does that come from? Nature? An effect must resemble its cause and I don't see such a thing in pure matter.

    Second, not sure why you're rejecting evolution's core teachings and asserting instead that it supports your views - I'm sorry but that's a big stretch. Nietzsche predicted that, because God was dead (according to him), the 20th century would be the bloodiest in all of human history. He was right about that, so how does it fit with your worldview of evolution making us morally better?

    Lastly, with respect to people not doing things because they just want to get away with something, an article/study I read in Money about a year ago said people lie, on average, once every 10-15 minutes in their business setting to gain some benefit for themselves. Now as a Christian, I get that perfectly (doctrine of sin and depravity), but how do you deal with that?

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    shumacr - this isn't about my views of God or the Bible. This is about my views on civil rights and what our laws should be based on.

    You ask "where do you get the idea that discrimination is wrong in the first place?"

    It follows from the principle that we should treat others as we would like to be treated. That's pretty much universal in all cultures. Regardless of you lack of understanding of evolution, I would argue that that principle follows from evolution, because we are social creatures, and we need to cooperate with each other to survive. So we've evolved an innate sense of morality that allows us to coexist.

    That's not to say that that sense is flawless or to deny that some people disregard it at times. Generally, though, it works pretty well. The great majority of people, the great majority of the time, don't do things just because they can get away with them.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:56 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    First, to assert that Colson is wrong simply because he omits the fact that clergy are (currently) excluded from the upcoming mandates mentioned in the story is absurd thinking.

    So the claim here seems to be that to discriminate is 'wrong'. So those opposed to Colson - you'd be fine with the NAACP having to hire KKK members as youth workers; Jewish groups being forced to admit neo-Nazis or Hamas members into its ranks; and prostitutes serving in the offices of organizations dedicated to sexual abstinence. You'd champion that? And please no "But that's different!" because it really isn't - discrimination is discrimination according to you. Or does this die the death of a thousand qualifying cuts?

    Moving it back a notch - if you reject God (and I assume you do) - then where do you get the idea that discrimination is wrong in the first place? Don't tell me the government is your ultimate foundation, because then I'll ask you if the government said tomorrow discrimination is OK, would you fall in line with it? A government big enough to give you your rights is big enough to take them away. Next, don't appeal to the natural universe or evolution - an amoral universe can't grant you moral laws and evolution stands in stark opposition to equality: with it, it's survival of the fittest and the strongest survive and rule; no equality there. In fact, it would view homosexuality as a genetic defect that does nothing to propagate the species - not good.

    So what is your foundation? Without God, you really have nothing for your ethical framework but your individual opinion, preference, and emotive response. No real basis for claiming an intrinsic worth and equality for human beings. When you take a ticket on the thought train, you need to be real sure where it lets you off.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Cheisa »Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:30 am Colson is setting up a straw man here. There is little similarity between Great Britain and the US as regards the church-state relationship. The Church of England is a government church for all practical purposes, with the monarch as its head. That creates a situation far different from the US where we do have a separation of church and state. The government doesn't have a foothold in religious matters like it has in England. Just becasue this is happening in one European country doesn't mean it is even remotely possible here.
    Colson is feeding the paranoia of Christians with a persecution complex. He ought to keep his focus and remind us that he's talking about England. By asking if it can happen here, he's simply throwing out questions to cause anxiety. His questions are based on apples vs oranges, so they're pretty much invalid, but that doesn't stop him from ruckmaking about the futureof religion here.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    In response: You nailed it quite nicely! The technique employed by Chuck Colson here is a typical one as the doom and gloom mentality is core component to the evangelical & fundamentalist ideology and is very effective in causing the programmed knee jerk reaction and not just a well thought out response that people who are capable of clear thinking would see through and reject. fundies and evangelicals are able to think clearly due to the programming and simply react like lemmings and follow the herd mentality in direct adherence to the party agenda.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth needn't be feared!
    TFR

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:59 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    schumacr »Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:46 am It's amazing to me that there is so much rhetoric against Colson even when links to the actual article are posted and proves the statements he made are true.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Really? Did you read the source article that was posted? Next if you did read the article you obviously missed something when you did, mainly the portion of the article that dealt with discrimination but left the clergy intact and free to proselytize ALL
    THEY WANTED.

    The clergy were still free to continue promoting hatred from their pulpits and nothing was stopping them presently nor would the passage and enforcement of the bill change them one bit.

    If followers want to consider something sinful they can still do that, no matter how stupid or bigoted it is viewed by others. So now you need to explain how the English bill that isn't in the US and the Churches are protected from the Federal Government interfering with
    their belief system. In England the clergy is free to rant all they want, in the US the Federal Government would be even more restrained and the clergy controls a portion of the Congress and did control the White House, so how does an anti-discrimination law affect your
    religious beliefs?

    It doesn't change them, It doesn't make the clergy stop preaching hatred or being bigoted, IT doesn't force anyone to stop being a fundie or evangelical so what is your problem and especially trying to claim Colson's article is true when he got it wrong. Read the link until you understand the truth and can see where Colson got it wrong.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies fear this blog!

    TFR

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    schumacr »Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:46 am It's amazing to me that there is so much rhetoric against Colson even when links to the actual article are posted and proves the statements he made are true.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    In Response: Really? Did you read the source article that was posted? Next if you did read the article you obviously missed something when you did, mainly the portion of the article that dealt with discrimination but left the clergy intact and free to proselytize ALL THEY WANTED.

    The clergy were still free to continue promoting hatred from their pulpits and nothing was stopping them presently not would the passage and enforcement of the bill change them one bit.

    If followers want to consider something sinful they can still do that, no matter how stupid or bigoted it is viewed by others. So now you need to explain how the English bill that isn't in the US and the Churches are protected from the Federal Government interfering with their belief system. In England the clergy is free to rant all they want, in the US the Federal Government would be even more restrained and the clergy controls a portion of the Congress and did control the White House, so how does an anti-discrimination law affect your religious beliefs?

    It doesn't change them, It doesn't make the clergy stop preaching hatred or being bigoted, IT doesn't force anyone to stop being a fundie or evangelical so what is your problem and especially trying to claim Colson's article is true when he got it wrong. Read the link until you understand the truth and can see where Colson got it wrong.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies fear this blog!

    TFR

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Colson is setting up a straw man here. There is little similarity between Great Britain and the US as regards the church-state relationship. The Church of England is a government church for all practical purposes, with the monarch as its head. That creates a situation far different from the US where we do have a separation of church and state. The government doesn't have a foothold in religious matters like it has in England. Just becasue this is happening in one European country doesn't mean it is even remotely possible here.

    Colson is feeding the paranoia of Christians with a persecution complex. He ought to keep his focus and remind us that he's talking about England. By asking if it can happen here, he's simply throwing out questions to cause anxiety. His questions are based on apples vs oranges, so they're pretty much invalid, but that doesn't stop him from ruckmaking about the futureof religion here.

  • Bujo »
    Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Colson, You have no right to warn anyone about government hurting Americans when you were part of the most corrupt White House ever! Not only were you a part of it, you were known as the most heavy handed ruthless one of them all. You stood infront of America and pleaded the 5th at Watergate when you could have helped bring Nixon to justice, and then pleaded down to a lesser charge. You were in the pocket of Bush and his brother, and have no moral standing when it comes to government! The only thing I'll commend you on it speaking up for prison reform. You've done an amazing and generous thing with your ministry there! However being that you shouldn't even have the right to vote (you had to get brother Jeb to give it back) I think you should keep your mouth shut when it comes to politics and government. Especially when it's not even your government!!! hide

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:46 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    It's amazing to me that there is so much rhetoric against Colson even when links to the actual article are posted and proves the statements he made are true. And - klm68 and others - do you really think that won't happen here, and that it will stop at 'jobs which promote their religion'? Or that if I or someone else stands up in a pulpit or external public place and make the statement "Homosexuality is a sin and is immoral" we won't be targeted for 'hate speech' and legally dealt with? Do you really believe that? If you do, you do so certainly not based on the trends, where other countries like Canada have gone, and where the homosexual agenda is pushing us to go here. Whether you're prejudiced against Christians or not, at least open your eyes to what's going on and admit it.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:48 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    This is some of the silliest stuff I've seen on these pages.

    Certainly Mr Colson has heard of the "Church of England", and he probably knows that the monarch is the titular head of the church. The Archbishop of Canterbury generally runs the church, just as the Prime Minister runs the government, but the monarch is officially the head of both. Church and state are not separate in England and other European countries.

    In the United States, they are. But he knows that.

    What really gets up his nose is "the so-called Equity Bill, which forbids discrimination against homosexuals or transsexuals." What a terrible thing it would be if we weren't allowed to discriminate.

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:11 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    I thought the government already forced churches to obey the secular law. For instance, people who want to deny life saving medical care for their children can be prosecuted or forced to allow such care. Again, one should remember that there is no First Ammendment protection in Britain. The Queen(or King) is head of the Church and separation of church and state is not the law. There seems to be an ongoing practice of ignoring the difference between those nations with state churches and the U.S. Perhaps this is because many writers on this site do not accept the Separation of Church and State. Rather, they want the church to control the state based upon a conservative Christian interpretation of the Bible.

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    clarence45 »Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:01 am Here is the link to the Telegraph article:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5357247/Law-will-force-churches-to-employ-gay-staff.html
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    In response: thanks clarence45 for posting the source of Chuck Colson's article as reading exposes the omission of facts and changing several facts about what the original article reported on.

    But what else can we expect from someone like Chuck Colson and his ilk as they apply exactly the same techniques to cause people to react in a manner to further the agenda set up to prevent equality of all people and especially equality of same sex couples from all of the same rights and privileges afforded to heterosexual marriages.

    It seems that England has again seen the inequality inherent in the churches over there and in the public roles that this laws covers simply tells them they have to be fair if a gay, lesbian or transgendered person applies for work. It DOES NOT require them to hire clergy who are LGBT community nor does it require any change in their preaching.

    So the big deal here is that civil law is requiring that people in public positions in a religious organization has the ability to work there and can't be kept from the job. Maybe this will allow those in England a chance to meet and realize that the LGBT community are just people and that they aren't stopped from pushing the same rhetoric regardless of the people working there.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ The most feared Blog!!
    TFR

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Blacksho89 »Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:00 pm from alockslee's blog: "We deal with the issues exposing the ignorance and stupidity that is inherent in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical system of belief." Hmm. Proofreading, anyone? I think you are missing a preposition in your phrase. But then again, what do I know. I's jest a ignunt fundie. --------------------------------------------------------- In response: Glad to see the word is getting out. Notice that you can even comment but you didn't. So... what prevented you from commenting on the blog entry obviously you understood the entry but said nothing but brought it here to comment. Interesting that you violated my copyright by not getting my permission to post it here, but obviously such a smart fundie like yourself figured you could get away with it. If you want to comment on my blog entries, you may do so on my blog, but to cross post my comments you first need my permission. Read it again and this time if you comment do it on the blog, if you want to cross post ASK first don't take as it violates my copyright. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies fear this Blog! TFR hide

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    from alockslee's blog: "We deal with the issues exposing the ignorance and stupidity that is inherent Fundamentalist/Evangelical system of belief."

    Hmm. Proofreading, anyone? I think you are missing a preposition in your phrase.

    "Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism is in their Death throes."

    Plural, dear. ARE in their death throes, and "death" need not be capitalized.

    But then again, what do I know. I's jest a ignunt fundie.

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:52 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    No, actually, that is what the GOVERNMENT says that that article reads. You believe everything the Government tells you, right? "No tax increases for families making under $250,000 a year" unless, of course, you have employer provided health insurance that will now be taxed.

    The first line of the article reads "Religious groups are to be forced to accept homosexual youth workers, secretaries and other staff, even if their faith holds same-sex relationships to be sinful."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5357247/Law-will-force-churches-to-employ-gay-staff.html

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 6

    Chuck Colson is once again doing what he seems to do best, stirring up fear and hysteria by reporting half truths and present outright misleading information. Colson insinuates that somehow English churches will be forced to hire gay youth ministers. Not only is he pandering to those who wrongly believe that gays are by nature pedophiles, he is flat out lying about churches being forced to hire a minister in accordance with England's proposed anti-discrimination law. "Churches, synagogues, mosques and others will continue to have the freedom to choose who they employ in jobs which promote their religion." That is what the article Colson was referring to actually says.

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  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Put on the full armor of god, this is an abomination. The persecution is coming. Will you cower and disobey God? Will you welcome the sacrifice? God told Elijah to STAND UP.

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Alocksee, you wrote: "to fully report the entire facts will not just discount his position, but almost always completely prove that his position is based entirely on fiction." Did you read the Telegraph article? What part of it discounts or disproves Colson's position? It's one thing to make allegations of "omission, fabrication and outright lying" but it's quite another to prove them. Without offering proof of your claims, it is YOU who is engaging in unfounded attacks and fearmongering. "Their entire religious beliefs are based upon fear to keep them in line." Um, not really. Have you followed Christ and studied God's Word, or did you just read that somewhere? "Notice the article talks about FOREIGN COUNTRIES AND NOT THE US! But since he alleges it IT MUST BE HAPPENING HERE NEXT, so as long as the people remain scared they can't be informed of anything else." You probably don't remember, but most Democratic politicians have pointed to Europe as the example for what the U.S. should be: Carter, Clinton, Kerry and now Obama. They have tried to re-mold us in that image, but until now have not been very sucessful. Obama has done more in 5 months to make us European-style socialists than all his predecessors combined. What Colson writes is indeed a possibility. "Fundies Fear this blog!" I doubt it, but I'm curious: don't you ever get tired of tooting your own horn? PS: what does the "TFR" stand for? hide

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:49 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 4

    steveh20 »Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:34 am I wish Charles would give links when he quotes from articles, I take the Daily Telegraph but must have missed this article somehow, I've been to their site but can't find it either. It's good journalism to reference quotes so they can be looked up. It's not that I think Charles can swing the lead sometimes...well to be honest, it is actually.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    In response: I have often called for complete reporting of the sources used by people like Chuck Colson and others like him who make claims about something happening or affecting his religious beliefs. You won't have that forthcoming as to fully report the entire facts will not just discount his position, but almost always completely prove that his position is based entirely on fiction.

    In fact I have found that the practice of omission, fabrication and outright lying to write an article to alarm fundamentalist/evangelicals is the method best suited to work. The persons who write articles like Chuck Colson and those like him know full well that they are not out to truthfully report the facts, but only cause people to be afraid they are somehow being made victims by practicing a particular religious belief and that it isn't true, but it makes them afraid just the same and once put out the people won't change their minds.

    Simple isn't it! You scare the folks and then they are so worried about some alleged attack that isn't true or even possible but they won't listen once their fears are at maximum. Their entire religious beliefs are based upon fear to keep them in line.

    Notice the article talks about FOREIGN COUNTRIES AND NOT THE US! But since he alleges it IT MUST BE HAPPENING HERE NEXT, so as long as the people remain scared they can't be informed of anything else.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Fundies Fear this blog!

    TFR
    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/

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