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Opinion|Thu, Jul. 09 2009 02:01 PM EDT

'Hate' Crimes Bill a Threat to Liberty

By Richard Land|Christian Post Guest Columnist

The U.S. House of Representatives easily approved “hate” crimes protections for homosexuals and transgendered individuals April 29. The Senate is expected to take up the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act prior to leaving for their August recess.

  • Richard Land

The House bill would add “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” to the current categories–such as race, religion and national origin–protected from hate crimes. “Sexual orientation” includes homosexuality, while “gender identity,” or transgendered status, takes in transsexuals and cross-dressers.

If adopted by Congress and signed by the president, the “hate” crimes legislation would establish a terrible precedent, making sexual preference in any way, shape or form a protected right.

It is not unthinkable, under the scenario presented by the “hate” crimes bill, that if a person commits a violent act based on a victim’s “sexual orientation” after hearing the Bible’s teaching, for instance, that homosexual behavior is a sin, the teacher or preacher might be charged with inducing that person to commit the crime.

This is a major issue for the cause of religious freedom and freedom of speech. In the face of a vote in the U.S. Senate, it is imperative that evangelicals contact their senators and urge them to resist the pressure of political correctness and to stand up for the constitutional principles of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

People should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law when they commit crimes against persons or property. Yet it is a dangerous mistake to try to elevate some crimes of violence as being more heinous than other crimes of violence because of the purported motives of the perpetrator or the identity of the victim. Murder is murder and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, regardless of the possible motives of the murderer or the racial, ethnic or sexual identity of the victim.

I encourage you to read this letter from U.S. Senator Jim DeMint on this most critical issue. Senator DeMint rightly warns that this legislation may well impact your “freedom to speak and preach biblical truth.”

This is no time to be silent. As people of God, we must let our voices be heard. Justice should be meted out based on actions, not upon the particular identities or lifestyles of perpetrators or victims.

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  • Alockslee »
    Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, let me address your last statement about preaching against homosexuality, which is directly linked to violence against member in the LGBT Community.

    Where Do you think hatred against the LGBT Community comes from? Well lets look at some facts:
    1. Pastors regularly preach against LGBT Community members and use biblical quotes to call them abominations;
    2. People listen to pastors and preachers and form their beliefs based on what they are told;
    3. Those opinions can be directly traced back to their source which you have said yourself come from your religious teaching;
    4. While preaching this hatred of the LGBT community the pastors and preachers take no responsibility for the potential for violence acted out by those they preach to;
    5. The current Hate Crimes Legislation covers LGBT members and at no time did pastors and preachers ever complain about any other persons covered in prior legislation only those in the LGBT Community and why? Well it is strictly based upon their religious ideology of course.
    6. They intend by tell their listeners to condemn those of the LGBT Community and to make them convert to and comply with their beliefs;
    7. That this has lead people to vote away the Civil Rights, allow discrimination of, allow firing and refusal to hire, prevent adoption, prevent allowing immigrant spouses from becoming naturalized citizens, etc..

    I can add a very long list up and with each point you would not be able to give any valid, Constitutional verifiable reasons to support your position.

    You can start with the list above and respond. Thanks in addition for helping in keeping this discussion civil and on point.

    TFR

  • believer »
    Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, but in all honesty I don't remember not answering any question that you've directed towards me. I know there have been times you did not accept my answer for lack of me providing sources that met your approval, but I don't think I've not answered any question you've thrown at me. My apology if I have and please feel free to ask me those questions again if you feel so led. But it does sound that you may be a little miffed at me for responding to your posts such as these on you saying that violence against homosexuals is directly linked to the preaching and teaching of evangelicals, by asking for substantiation to this claim.

  • believer »
    Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, as far as answering my question to you, no I wasn't answering it as much as sharing what I was looking for with regards to my question. If I'm preaching a message on homosexuality and condemn the sinner as opposed to condemn the sin then I am accountable if someone hears that message and develops a bias toward homosexuals or acts out against homosexuals, but if I'm doing the latter I would also include that God still love those that commits those sins the same way He loves all sinners to include you and I.

  • believer »
    Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, your example and attempt to link it to evangelical Christians is weak at best. Being in the military I knew guys who wouldn't darken the doors of a church for anything and in fact as a Christian I was constantly ridiculed by some of them and the only other people they ridiculed more than born-again believers were homosexuals and if they were white other minorities as well. I saw the same thing in many of the friends I grew up with in Rochester New York and at that time while in the catholic church the issue of homosexuality was not even spoke to. And the attitude you shared in your example was the exact attitude they had as well.

  • Alockslee »
    Sat Jul 18, 2009 1:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The link below from a Denver TV Station covers a killing based upon hate.

    A transgendered woman was killed and the killer stated:

    "gay things need to die"

    So I wonder where he came up with this hateful attitude about gays? It seems the only people out there who have been vocal against gays are lets see..... Hmmmmmmm

    fundamentalist and evangelical christians! Well now that would certainly qualify to prove some connection as to where this killer got his information from and looks like the constant reiterations of what those folks say would drum those words into the psyche deep enough to cause a person to believe them and then carry out their rage in accordance with it.

    Let's look at another one shall we?
    http://www.sptimes.com/2006/09/20/Northpinellas/Transgender_man_s_kil.shtml - from Florida.

    http://cbs5.com/national/knoxville.tennessee.shooting.2.781332.html

    There are many more, so how do you explain the connection to what these people were told during a fundamentlist/evangelical service and these heinous acts of violence against the LGBT community and then say there is no need for a Hate Crimes Bill to protect the LGBT community form people who target them? The answer is obvious that the Hate Crimes Legislation is long past due and the need to stop the attacks must be taken seriously.

    so if the root of the hate stems from the fundies and evangelicals then they should look at correcting their wording so that people don't act out violently against the LGBT community.

    Nothing here says they can't talk about their beliefs only that they must insure that members of their group don't carry out violent acts against the LGBT community and that they instruct the members to refrain from hurting them.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Stop the violence!

    TFR

  • Alockslee »
    Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To believer, Over the last month of so I have asked repeatedly for answers to questions and received little to nothing from you. So now you attempt to avoid, evade and ignore what was asked already and instead try to attack me on the claims made by those of your own religious group and ask me to defend their statements.

    If you want answers and proof that the religious right is somehow speaking truthfully about their Freedoms beings taken away by a Hate Crime bill,then ask them as they are ones claiming it will.

    You are the one who needs to answer my prior questions BEFORE you try to ask me anything. You are the one who needs to be transparent on those issues as each post I make is flagged to prevent the readership from seeing the truth and irrefutable contained in my posts.

    So ask the source who makes the claims their rights are being taken away and those would be YOUR pastors, YOUR clergy and the rest of YOUR group as they are the ones making the claims and it is they who must give the answers not me.

    Your turn about to prevent the readership from recognizing my commentary will not prevent the truth from being made known nor will it hinder me in making sure the information gets to those who need it most.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Truth and Reality
    TFR

  • Alockslee »
    Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    In response to believer's question:

    "In other words were these sermons and teachings saying that homosexuals are nothing but perverts who need to be wiped out ...."

    Looks like you both asked and gave the answer in just his part of your post.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/
    TFR

  • believer »
    Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, please cite your sources that show the direct link of violence against homosexuals to the preaching of sermons against the sins of homosexuality and the teaching of hatred toward homosexuals? And please explain how you or these studies define exactly what it means to preach or teach hatred toward homosexuals? In other words were these sermons and teachings saying that homosexuals are nothing but perverts who need to be wiped out or were they sermons and teachings sharing what God's Word has to say about the sins associated with homosexuality and the need for homosexuals like all of us needing to repent of our sins regardless of what sins they are since any and all sins separate us from God and as we repent we need to turn to Christ?

  • Alockslee »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Slacker: A crime requires two parts of basic construction: 1. mens rea ['menz-'re-e, -'ra-] pl: mentes reae ['men-'tez-'re-'e, 'men-'tas-'ra-'i] New Latin, literally, guilty mind : a culpable mental state : one involving intent or knowledge and forming an element of a criminal offense. 2. actus reus - actus reus ['ak-tes-'re-es, 'äk-tûs-'ra-ûs] New Latin, guilty deed : the wrongful act that makes up the physical action of a crime. The two parts are needed to constitute the components to prove a crime was committed. In some instances the intent can be transferred even though the perpetrator didn't intend to harm the victim originally but was harmed due to the act and disregard for consequences. The hatred directed at LGBT community is directly traceable to the preaching of sermons and the teaching of hatred based from certain verses of the text used by fundamentalists and evangelicals. If the pastors were to give a sermon and speak to the proscribed conduct and then admonish the assembly not to slur, comment to, violently attack or otherwise interfere with another person's individual sexual orientation then the vast and I do mean the vast majority of attacks against the LGBT community would drop significantly. The major activist group against LGBT community members are those of the fundamentalist/evangelical following wherein they are told, incited and pushed to take action to interfere, inhibit, prevent, and even violently harm, beat, and kill the members or even perceived members of the LGBT community. If the members of the religious groups listed above were just made to stop their activism and leave them alone and to simply use legal means to obtain their goals then most if not all of the hate crimes against the LGBT community would cease or at least very dramatically reduce almost immediately. The reaction by some will prove that this post is 100% on point and completely valid as to the actions of the fundie/evangelical groups and their concentrated agenda to force dominion and control over the LGBT community,to drive it out of mainstream visibility and to force the reversion to a dark ages existence for this country, it's population and the world. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Read The Blog The Truth is here. TFR hide

  • Mike85 »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Slacker, I'm not being singled out, I'm being protected by the law. Targeting someone because they belong to a GROUP is different than targeting an individual because you don't like them. Targeting someone anonymously because they belong to a group is used as a tool of fear, and it does warrant a more severe punishment than 1st degree assault.

  • believer »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, two miracles in one night, you paying me a compliment and you and I agreeing on false convictions of innocent people and I thank you for your compliment, so would that be three miracles? :0)

  • Alockslee »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer »Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:10 am
    al, went back and checked what you shared and according to the Innocence Project that although the decision by the court is disappointing it will have little impact on convicted criminals in getting post-conviction DNA testing since this decision deals with the federal court systems and not state court systems. But it had also heightened this organization's drive to get DNA testing laws passed in those states such as Alaska that don't have one already. So the reality is that with DNA testing today the cases of people being falsely accused are becoming fewer and fewer and especially since this decision speaks to post-conviction DNA testing and not other DNA testing.
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    In response: Believer, thanks so much for taking the time to look into my comments and independently verify what I had just mentioned.

    You went further than I did and that makes your response a better post on the subject than what I wrote earlier. You should be commended for doing that and then reporting back on the subject.

    Finally, it is a shame that justice is being denied to people who aren't guilty and the authorities aren't concerned with truth and properly convicting the real criminals but simply use the law to abuse the rights of innocent people and they suffer due to this conduct. I would like to see a prosecutor be given 3x the sentence that the original person received and to make sure that the death penalty is never imposed on the prosecutor so that they will be given the optimum period of time to recognize the full error of the ways and then be able to feel somewhat like the innocent victim felt and then have 3x as long to experience it. The prosecutor, investigating authorities, judges, etc should be included in this as well and they must be completely protected so that they live every moment of their deserved sentences.

    The law in many cases even prevent the victim from suing their persecutors.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Read the Blog the Truth will set you free!

    TFR

  • Alockslee »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Slacker »Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:03 pm "In Response:Yes, yes I do." Present it then.... if not then don't make a statement like that. ----------------------------------------------------------- In response: look at the link and read the posts: http://alockslee.blogspot.com/The Majority of Pedophiles and Drug Dealers are Christians!! Lets see what you can produce to prove your religious beliefs has to contradict what is said. Lets see you put up the secular proof that gives hard factual evidence that your religion is not the same as the majority of drug dealers and PEDOPHILES! Lets see you refute the convictions of pastors, and priests MAKE SURE YOU COVER BOTH!!! Finally now that I have given you the proof you asked for lets see you mr. poster and fundie ideology follower contradict it with what I told you to use or be quiet, admit I am correct and then listen and learn since I have the proof and you lack any. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/The Majority of Pedophiles and Drug Dealers are Christians!!,Mindcontrolled fundies and brainwashed evangelicals,Is America a "christian nation"? That should keep you quite busy!! TFR hide

  • Slacker »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "In Response:Yes, yes I do."

    Present it then.... if not then don't make a statement like that.

    The truth shall set you free...

  • Slacker »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:00 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    to Mike:

    "Believer and slacker, you aren't thinking here!!! If I walk out of a gay club and get attacked, someone could just get the same time as someone who mugged me or was a dope fiend. Sitting at home and planning to attack me specifically because I am gay, or because someone is black, OR BECAUSE SOMEONE IS OF A CERTAIN RELIGION, is a worse offense because the INTENTION was there. That's what our criminal justice system comes down to: intention. It makes a big difference in the crime as well as the punishment. We have harsh crimes for murder and people are falsely accused all the time for it. Should we not have different degrees of murder just to protect the people who are falsely accused? "

    its called 1st degree assault, why should you be singled out because of your sexual orientations. The intention you mention in most circumstances is just that circumstantial and one of the toughest to prove in court. And that also brings up a question I have always had in that; does this creation of a special class also create a sense that Justice is not blind?

  • believer »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    al, went back and checked what you shared and according to the Innocence Project that although the decision by the court is disappointing it will have little impact on convicted criminals in getting post-conviction DNA testing since this decision deals with the federal court systems and not state court systems. But it had also heightened this organization's drive to get DNA testing laws passed in those states such as Alaska that don't have one already. So the reality is that with DNA testing today the cases of people being falsely accused are becoming fewer and fewer and especially since this decision speaks to post-conviction DNA testing and not other DNA testing.

  • Alockslee »
    Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:34 pm : 0 : 0 Flag

    mike85, but as far as falsely accused as a result of DNA testing those situations are becoming fewer and fewer.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    In response: Obviously you haven't kept up on the current news regarding DNA. The Supreme Court has even
    had a ruling on it.

    The testing employed has been shown to be invalid in many cases due to mistakes by authorities. The DNA matches are too numerous to be considered valid and rely upon for convictions in many cases.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/READ THE BLOG!!!
    TFR

  • Alockslee »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:29 am : 1 : 0 Flag

    Alocksee,
    You wrote: "The vast majority of drug dealers and especially pedophiles are christian. Most of the christian pedophiles are fundie or evangelical members before they commit the acts."

    Do you have any evidence to back up your ridiculous claim? A study, statistical data, anything?

    No? I didn't think you did.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    In Response:Yes, yes I do.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ READ THE BLOG!

    TFR

  • Daniel Paul »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Who said it ends in murder? How do you know its not just putting me in the hospital? "

    Premeditated assault and battery with intent to do bodily harm can carry quite a sentence as well. The problem comes in when police and the solicitors office do not do THEIR jobs.

    Case and point...if this child in court today had been properly evaluated and served by the schools for the past 7 years he may have done much better. I also found out today that he can't see 2 feet in front of himself without his glasses. Can't imagine why he may not be able to copy well from the black board....

    The problem isn't that we don't have enough laws. The problem is that they are not properly enforced. Making laws that make the government the "thought police" will create more problems then it will ever solve.

  • Mike85 »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer I never said hate crimes had a thing to do with falsely accused. I said being are falsely accused of murder, so I asked if we should scrap murder laws.

    If a few pastors have been falsely accused of hate crimes, should we scrap hate crime laws?

    Catch my drift?

  • believer »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, but as far as falsely accused as a result of DNA testing those situations are becoming fewer and fewer.

  • believer »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, you don't make any sense and how exactly would hate crimes help the falsely accused? And in fact hate crimes would probably lead to more people being falsely accused especially since we have some many self-concious people who can't accept the fact that it's not always about them.

  • Mike85 »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Who said it ends in murder? How do you know its not just putting me in the hospital?

  • Daniel Paul »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Sitting at home and planning to attack me specifically because I am gay, or because someone is black, OR BECAUSE SOMEONE IS OF A CERTAIN RELIGION, is a worse offense because the INTENTION was there."

    That would be premeditated murder which gets the death penalty in many states. You really can't get much more punishment than that. Again, anything the hate crimes bill would do is moot.

  • Mike85 »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, nonsense! You show no knowledge of our judicial system in your arguments! It does not matter if you have the best lawyer in the world, certain crimes have a certain maximum sentence, and hate crimes make the maximum sentence more severe than a mugging or random attack. As for laws that protect the falsely accused...what are you talking about? Do you know how many falsely accused men have gone to death row? There is no law to prevent that from happening.

  • believer »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, we do already have laws to protect the falsely accused and while intentions are important we don't need hate crimes to deal with those intentions and any good lawyer would ensure those intentions are made known if they will help his client win their case or in the case of the prosecutor to get the perpatrator a harsher punishment.

  • Mike85 »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer and slacker, you aren't thinking here!!! If I walk out of a gay club and get attacked, someone could just get the same time as someone who mugged me or was a dope fiend. Sitting at home and planning to attack me specifically because I am gay, or because someone is black, OR BECAUSE SOMEONE IS OF A CERTAIN RELIGION, is a worse offense because the INTENTION was there. That's what our criminal justice system comes down to: intention. It makes a big difference in the crime as well as the punishment. We have harsh crimes for murder and people are falsely accused all the time for it. Should we not have different degrees of murder just to protect the people who are falsely accused?

  • Daniel Paul »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Just an update on the kid I posted about with the school issues. It went to court today. The solicitor didn't want to proceed on the expulsion part of the "probation violation". Smart move on their part as I had a copy of the OCR complaint with me along with the audio! :D

    The school in an attempt to cover up what they've done has passed the child on to the next grade even though he was expelled and didn't earn the carnegie credits for the year.... What think you on that one Mike? It is my HOPE we live in different worlds when it comes to education! I wouldn't wish this on anyone....

  • Daniel Paul »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Murder is not murder, there is manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, murder in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree, etc. "

    Agreed but it works to my benefit. All of those boil down to intentional and unintentional. If it's intentional (and not "justifiable") they should get the max punishment no matter what the reason or motivation. No matter, the punishment should fit the crime and not the motivation. Why? It is the crime that is the problem. If the punishment fit the crime then there would be no call for "hate crimes" legislation because people who do those sorts of things would already be getting the max.

    Again, the problem isn't with the lack of laws. The problem is with the lack of enforcement. Trust me on this one...lawyers and judges will find a way around the hate crimes laws just like they do with all the other laws. I find it a problem that those who say you cannot legislate morality are the ones pushing the hate crimes bill.

  • believer »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    slacker, Amen to your post of one Pastor being too many!

  • believer »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    mike85, I totally disagree with both and believe that anyone found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt should be punished to the fullest extent of the law and we have laws in place that do just that when they are enforced. Which is why we don't need hate crimes since when it comes to these crimes it doesn't matter what the gender, sexual orientation, color, race, nationality, age, or anything else about the victim or even the perpetrator of these crimes, if the perpatrator is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law considering the awfulness of these crimes.

  • Slacker »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Believer, how many pastors have been brought to court out of the 10's of thousands who preach against homosexuality? Incredibly few. The way some talk, you'd think it was every last one of them. That's what I mean by fanaticizing a minority. "

    One is to many considering the First Amendment's Guarantee of Speech Freedom, WE have laws in the US that protects people from violence, we do not need to create new laws, we need to enforce the laws we already have...

  • Slacker »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You may hold to what they say, but they have no right to tell others how to live, conduct themselves or interfere with the lives of anyone under the guise of religion."

    But don't you see that is exactly what this hate speech law is designed to do, don't stand on your soap box with your no where blog and try and use some sort of twisted logic on us...

  • Slacker »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Here we have a FORMER PASTOR acting independently of any official church position resulting in violence to a person directly due to the former pastor's letter"

    I guess the person that did the violence doesn't have any responsibility. In your mind it is all the "religious" person. Good way to userp fairness in anything...

  • wowie »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:22 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Bigot- a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

    one who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

    Bigotry- intolerance toward those of different creeds or religious affiliations

    rigid intolerance of ideas or persons seen as different.

    After reading your rants Al, I find it amusing that you would accuse someone else of being a bigot.

  • mathetes »
    Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:29 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Alocksee,
    You wrote: "The vast majority of drug dealers and especially pedophiles are christian. Most of the christian pedophiles are fundie or evangelical members before they commit the acts."

    Do you have any evidence to back up your ridiculous claim? A study, statistical data, anything?

    No? I didn't think you did.

  • Mike85 »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Copout?!? Now where did that come from? Do you disagree about rape and murder, or do you just like trying to be mean?

  • believer »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    mike85, two copouts in one night, good going!!

  • believer »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    al, I can't help but notice that you didn't cite a website for your post on the incident and considering you demand that of those who oppose your point of view I knew you'd appreciate someone identifying that apparent oversight on your part!!

  • believer »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    al, considering we're all sinners your point about being in a minority and being told you're a sinner is a moot point. Plus, the goal of true Christian evangelism is to not simply point out the fact one is a sinner but to see that person turn from their sin and turn to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone so they can have a personal relationship with God through Christ and have a home in heaven with God and all other believers for eternity.

  • Mike85 »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Uhh, DP...no its not. Rape is rape, but it has its own punishment. Murder is not murder, there is manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, murder in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree, etc.

  • Daniel Paul »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "mike85, why should it be a more serious crime to attack someone because of their sexual orientation as opposed to attacking somebody for say being in the wrong place wearing the wrong colors?"

    Here's another question...why should it be a more serious crime to attack a gay person than rape and murder" of a person of the 'opposite sex'?

    The crime is the crime. All deserve the SAME protection. You cannot provide different punishments for the same crime. Rape and/or murder is rape and/or murder no matter who the victim is.

  • Alockslee »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show In response to tpique1 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:38 pm, comments, here is exactly what happened and this was not a preacher's comments from a pulpit, it was about his comments published in a newspaper and the injury to a young boy that followed this letter that caused people to attack the boy. "A former pastor and the Christian group he belonged to broke Alberta's human rights law by writing an anti-gay letter published in a Red Deer newspaper, a panel ruled Friday. In 2002, Stephen Boissoin wrote a letter to the editor of the Red Deer Advocate that compared gay people to pedophiles and drug dealers. It was published under the headline "Homosexual agenda wicked." "On Friday, a commission panel decided Boissoin and the Concerned Christian Coalition of which he was executive director violated human rights law because the letter likely exposed gays to hatred and contempt. "I find that there is a circumstantial connection between the hate speech of Mr. Boissoin and the CCC and the beating of a gay teenager in Red Deer less than two weeks following the publication of Mr. Boissoin's letter," wrote panel chairwoman Lori Andreachuk." The above came directly from the link provided and the FACTS which were omitted from [tpique1] post. Here we have a FORMER PASTOR acting independently of any official church position resulting in violence to a person directly due to the former pastor's letter. So how was this bigot's rights violated and his ideology hurt? His actions resulted in violent attacks on another person and had nothing to do with a church sermon, only this bigot's views based upon his personal vendetta to get LGBT people hurt and/or killed by comparing them to pedophiles and drug dealers. The vast majority of drug dealers and especially pedophiles are christian. Most of the christian pedophiles are fundie or evangelical members before they commit the acts. Even the clergy of Southern Baptists have been charged and convicted in such cases. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Evangelical and Fundamentalist Churches are losing the Youth Members! Molesters and Mothers killing their children for Jesus! TFR hide

  • Alockslee »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show tpique1 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:38 pm Alockslee, Speculation???? It's happening in Europe and in Canada! They have ALREADY adopted hate crimes laws there and YES, as proof, Preachers HAVE BEEN prosecuted for preaching that homosexuality is a sin. ----------------------------------------------------------- In response: So what happens in another country automatically happens here?? That means by your analogy that the Taliban's laws are happening here. That means that every one of the middle east's laws are happening here. You jump to conclusions before the law has even taken effect. Let's see where any of the fundies have stopped their hate speech against LGBT community. Lets see you post where these bigots have been made to stop calling for violence against the LGBT community? LETS see where one of those bigots have stated NOT TO ATTACK or HARM the LGBT community. You may hold to what they say, but they have no right to tell others how to live, conduct themselves or interfere with the lives of anyone under the guise of religion. How you you like it if you were a minority and told you were in sin by a majority of another religious group? would you like it their ideology said your ideology was evil and needed to be legislated against to prohibit it's practice? And while you are at it put up all the non religious (secular) reasons you have that supports your position and since none of you ever do there isn't any. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Is America a "christian nation"? READ THE BLOG!!! TFR hide

  • Mike85 »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    never said its not important, but its not worth scrapping the legislation that could save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (if nothing else, relieve the fear they must live in daily) solely because less than a handfull of people have been brought to court (and let off!!!)

  • believer »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mike85, no, I just simply echoing your sentiment that since the numbers are few then the issue is not important.

  • Mike85 »
    Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Because the lives of those 2-4% are threatened on a daily basis! What an ignorant thing to say from a "christian"!!!!

  • believer »
    Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    mike85, if the issue is numbers then considering only 2% to 4% of the population are homosexuals then why bother with hate crime laws for them?

  • Mike85 »
    Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer, how many pastors have been brought to court out of the 10's of thousands who preach against homosexuality? Incredibly few. The way some talk, you'd think it was every last one of them. That's what I mean by fanaticizing a minority.

  • believer »
    Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    mike85, "Because an incredibly small minority has been fanaticized?", please explain. But my concern is that these laws can and have led to harassing Pastors from preaching or teaching God's truths with regards to the sexual practices of homosexuality which He considers sin and how if a person refuses to stop these practices they can not be saved.

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