Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Ministries|Sat, Sep. 26 2009 10:44 AM EDT

Evangelicals Urged to Heed Calvin's Voice

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Hundreds of Reformed believers passionate about preaching the Scriptures and making Christ known have convened in Minneapolis for three days of talks centered on the life and teachings of 16th century reformer John Calvin.

  • desiring god
    (Photo: Desiring God)
    Attendees worship at the Desiring God Ministries 2009 national conference in Minneapolis on Friday, Sept 25, 2009.
  • julius kim
    (Photo: Desiring God)
    Julius Kim, associate professor of Practical Theology at Westminster Seminary in California, speaks at the Desiring God Ministries 2009 national conference in Minneapolis on Friday, Sept 25, 2009.
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Lamenting that many churches today have lost confidence in the truthfulness and authority of the Bible, Julius Kim, associate professor of Practical Theology at Westminster Seminary in California, called Christians to heed Calvin's voice.

"In many of our churches the Bible has been functionally rejected in place of what we could gain from some sort of rational exercise on the one hand or some sort of emotional experience on the other," Kim said at the national conference, hosted by Desiring God Ministries, on Friday.

"We need to hear Calvin's voice once again calling us back to the Scriptures as our only source of truth and life," he emphasized.

For Calvin, the idea that Scripture alone is the only source of religious truth was the principle element of his vision of Reform, said Kim, who also serves as associate pastor of New Life Presbyterian Church in Escondido, Calif.

"Why is it important that the Bible alone is the only authority?" he asked. "For Calvin, nothing was more important than getting this right."

The annual conference this year is themed "With Calvin in the Theater of God," in commemoration of the 500th anniversary of Calvin's birth.

The theme is based on what Calvin stated in his most famous work, Institutes of the Christian Religion: "While it becomes man seriously to employ his eyes in considering the works of God, since a place has been assigned him in this most glorious theater that he may be a spectator of them, his special duty is to give ear to the Word, that he may the better profit."

John Piper, who leads Desiring God, explained that Calvin saw the world as God's theater where the glory of God himself was ever on display. The aim of the Sept. 25-27 conference, Piper said, is to look at the majesty of Jesus and his purposes for the world and to sanctify the name of God through Jesus Christ.

"God is infinitely valuable and infinitely glorious," Piper said at the Religious Newswriters Association's annual convention earlier this month. "You are made to find your ultimate joy not in being significant but in knowing the infinitely significant one."

Kim also highlighted on Friday the emphasis on the glory of God.

What the Scriptures principally teach, according to Calvin, is that God alone deserves glory, Kim said. "At the end of the day, what's most important is that God is glorified, not only in his creation but also in his plan of redemption."

The conference comes as reports indicate the emergence of New Calvinism. New Calvinists defy evangelical mainstream, which they feel has watered down the Gospel, and embrace the fundamentals of Calvin's teachings which include belief in the sovereignty of God, the sufficiency and authority of Scripture, the total depravity of humanity, and the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

What the New Calvinists are embracing today is the Truth, according to Piper.

"If you want to understand the new Reformed people, they preach the Bible," Piper said. "They really believe in Truth.

"That marks Calvin and it marks us today."

As evangelicalism is seeing a growth of New Calvinists, Kim pointed out on Friday that Calvin ultimately didn't want to produce Calvinists. He wanted to produce biblical Christians.

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  • Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Amen. I've often said that. There is a Church that Christ built, but it wasn't the catholic church. They came around a couple centuries later, perverting the truth. People were being duped left and right. It's amazing how effective Satan's lies are. Fortunately, there were many in the church that saw the catholic church for what it was, and started the reformation, to get back to the truth. Praise God.
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  • Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:23 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 5

    ---i believe calvin, like David, was a man who was also after God's own heart..and that is one thing we ought to do as well---as Old student said-- heed His voice.


    "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will." - Ac 13:22 (cf. 1Sa 13:13-14)

    If we hear what our Lord is saying in the following verses, we will see that Mary, David and Calvin had the same reverent attitude towards GOD and His Word. THey loved GOd and His WOrd.

    They were not perfect but GOd knows their hearts...

    Luk 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

    Luk 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.



    ---------------------------------------------------------
    HISTORY of the CHRISTIAN CHURCH*

    JOHN CALVIN AND HIS WORK.
    http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/8_ch08.htm

    Calvin’s theology is based upon a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He was the ablest exegete among the Reformers, and his commentaries rank among the very best of ancient and modern times. His theology, therefore, is biblical rather than scholastic, and has all the freshness of enthusiastic devotion to the truths of God’s Word. At the same time he was a consummate logician and dialectician. He had a rare power of clear, strong, convincing statement. He built up a body of doctrines which is called after him, and which obtained symbolical authority through some of the leading Reformed Confessions of Faith.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    DP brings it home again! Let us heed the Master and His Spirit's voice!

    Grace and Peace,
    jim

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

    Continental: "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." I Corinthians 3:11.
    To adopt your metaphor of "the bark of PETER" contradicts this teaching.
    What is more, the possessive form you attach to the Bible and the Sacraments as in "our" confirms as much
    (not to mention the low doctrine of each as "stuff").
    Christ affirmed in Matthew 28:18, "ALL authority is given unto Me in Heaven and in earth" - the consummate contradiction of any spiritual authority being vested in Petros (with which inerrant WORD of G-D you also take issue) or any other individual - of a piece when Tradition as accorded the same weight as Holy Scripture.
    This Authority is by Christ The Living WORD of G-D (John ch.1 & Rev. ch. 1, passim) AS The WORD of G-D by The Holy Spirit, and its Gospel is "the keys" that "bind" or "loose" by either accepting or rejecting its unearned offer of Grace Alone by Faith Alone
    in the Crucified and Risen Jesus Christ as L-RD.

  • Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:27 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Hey...how about if evangelicals are urged to heed the Holy Spirits voice?

  • Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:43 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Yes, a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing for a false doctrine. It brings people out of bondage to such fables as presented by the catholic church. And they don't want that.

  • Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:39 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 0

    Continental,

    I pray that when you pray the Lord's Word will raise above all the unbiblical traditions that obscure its truth . . .

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 11

    I will keep y'all in my prayers. You are perfect examples of the statement that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. And I emphasize little, believe me, regarding your flawed understanding of everything to do with the Catholic Faith and Church. But you are passionate about it so at least you are not luke warm.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:18 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 1

    continental, no the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, God's Universal Church is the Bride of Christ and when a person becomes a Christian they automatically become a member of God's Church Universal and then they must decide which local church and/or denomination they will become a part of.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    I'm praying that the catholic church renounces it's destruction of the Scriptures and returns to the truth therein. Until then, I fear for the countless people being led astray by this corporation.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The RCC isn't the Bride of Christ. It's corrupt and misled.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    ProphetSays: I'm glad someone got that. I pointed the catholic church out for this purpose because continental seems to think that by just being catholic, that you are part of the Bride. The arrogance of the catholic institution drives them far from God's heart. He resists the proud.
    In comparison of all the denominations of Christianity, in my experience, the catholic church is the only group that claims that it is the only way to salvation (yes, that's what the Pope said).

    ContinentalSays: The Roman Catholic Church is Bride of Christ. All other Christians are part of this. But you are our separated brethren in that you have separated yourselves from us be we share the same baptism, for example. [Interestingly, if you have been properly baptized, using water and the proper words, in a nonCatholic Christian Church, and you wanted to become Catholic, we would not re-baptize you. But the same cannot be said for most nonCatholic churches receiving a Catholic. They almost always re-baptize.]

    If you can envision a great ship, the bark of Peter, think of all you separated brethren as smaller boats (life boats) floating beside it. The people in the smaller boats jumped ship taking with them some of our "stuff"; our Bible, some of our sacraments, some even use some our liturgical worship, etc. That is how we see you. You see, you are part of the Bride of Christ too, it is just that you lack some things, the things you rejected when you jumped ship.

    We love you all and pray for you. Jesus prayed in John 17: 20-21 for his followers to be one. This separation in the Bride of Christ is a terrible scandal and definitely not the will of Jesus. But one day we will all be one. It is His will.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    continental, we were taught the catechism all right and all the false teachings it included such as purgatory, Mary's perpetual virginity and immaculete conception, venial and mortal sin, that water baptism is required for salvation and so on. What we weren't taught and what is not found in the catechism is God's Plan of Salvation, the most important thing a person needs to know!!

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "In all honesty, that blanket statement would eliminate all physical churches, because none are perfect, without spot or belmish."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I'm glad someone got that. I pointed the catholic churc out for this purpose because continental seems to think that by just being catholic, that you are part of the Bride. The arrogance of the catholic institution drives them far from God's heart. He resists the proud.
    In comparison of all the denominations of Christianity, in my experience, the catholic church is the only group that claims that it is the only way to salvation (yes, that's what the Pope said).

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "Jesus is coming back for a Bride without spot or wrinkle. That eliminates the catholic church."

    In all honesty, that blanket statement would eliminate all physical churches, because none are perfect, without spot or belmish.

    We as THE Church, will be cleansed, ironed, spots & blemishes removed before Jesus comes for His Bride. It's called the great tribulation. Those who are just playing at being Christians, who do not have Jesus in their hearts, will have to either get serious or sadly, they will turn to the antichrist. Judgement comes first to the household, or church, of God. Jesus said in Matt 24: 29-31 exactly when He would return for His Bride, immediately after the tribulation of those days. If we deny this, we are calling Jesus a liar, and since He does not lie, it must therefore be true.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "All this means is you, and many others, were never properly catechized."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Meaning the indoctrination, or brainwashing, didn't take hold. Thank God.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    believerSays:continental, if roman catholics were allowed to truly study the Word of God, the roman catholic church as we know it today would have folded years ago!! I was a roman catholic for 19 years and never once was shown God's Plan of Salvation and reading the posts of many former roman catholics on these sites affirms that I was not the only roman catholic robbed and cheated of that opportunity

    ContinentalSays: All this means is you, and many others, were never properly catechized. That doesn't prove the Church is not the true Church founded by Jesus Christ. It means that clay vessels failed in their mission to pass on the Faith. I am sorry for this. I thank God every day I had the kind of Catholic family I did, ones who knew their faith and lived it, and was also afforded a great classic education in my faith. I realize this is not everyone's experience. It saddens me to know this. The failure is multifaceted. Some failure is because of the whackiness after Vatican II which was a good council, but enemies of the Church used the "changing times" to foist errors on the people, and this included sorry catechesis in too many instances. I will continue to pray for you. Obviously your loss to the church is unfortunate for us and for you as you are no longer receiving the Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Himself. Satan is always trying to undermine the faithful. The failure is also due to poor formation of priests and nuns who spread the errors. As I said previously, this crew is getting old, retiring and dying out. The "reform of the reforms" of Vatican II is underway. And, hopefully, future young Catholics will not suffer what you and so many others have. It is refreshing to see our young people so on fire for their faith.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Being a Christian doesn't automatically make you a Bride of Christ. Being part of an organization doesn't automatically make you part a Brid of Christ. The Bride is comprised of Christians who realize that their salvation is based on Jesus' work on the cross. That it is a gift, not to be earned. They are Christians who rise up and die to themselves, and seek the very nature of Christ. They surrender completely to self, pride, and sin. Sitting on a pew for 50 years going through rituals and motions only makes one tired. Nothing else.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    continental, if roman catholics were allowed to truly study the Word of God, the roman catholic church as we know it today would have folded years ago!! I was a roman catholic for 19 years and never once was shown God's Plan of Salvation and reading the posts of many former roman catholics on these sites affirms that I was not the only roman catholic robbed and cheated of that opportunity.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Bride of Christ...lol.

    Jesus is coming back for a Bride without spot or wrinkle. That eliminates the catholic church.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:34 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    The Coming Home Network is not a channel. It is an organization which helps nonCatholic pastors search for the truth and guides them as they make their journey of faith into the Catholic Church.

    I will pray for you all. It seems fruitless to argue with those who have such venom for The Bride of Christ. But I will continue to pray and let the Holy Spirit do His wonderful work. Please continue to study your Bible but meditate on the New Testament in light of the Old Testament using the study of "Typology". It will really open your eyes to God's truth.

    Don't be like the Sadducees who only would believe in the first five books of the Bible plus rejected the oral tradition of the Old Testament, thereby rejecting bodily resurrection. Today's Protestants who reject Sacred tradition are too much like that. How sad.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:23 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Hi Prophet

    (I temporarioy deleted my post that you answered to correct a typo or two....)

    Yes, praise God for those brave men who gave their lives to bring the Word of God to the common man and to separate from the pagan catholic church! But, this, too, I believe was in God's plan from the foundation of the earth. Just as He knew Adam & Eve would sin, that Jesus would have to come and save us, He also knew the catholic church would fall into apostasy and that these men of God would bring about the separation so badly needed.

    In Revelation, John saw what the church has become today, both catholic and protestant denominations have bowed to satan and walked away from righteousness. He saw that judgement will fall on these apostate churches.

    Scripture says that judgement will come first to the household of God before it comes upon the rest of the world. We all need to get our houses in order!!

    God bless you

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:13 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    "Jesus founded the Church on Peter"

    Jesus did indeed say he would found THE CHURCH on Peter, but not the catholic church. The first believers were called "the Way" and worshiped in traditional Jewish custom, keeping Sabbath, Kosher, and the Law. It was the catholic church that changed all of that, out of their hatred for the Jewish people, blaming them for the crucifixion. Jesus came for the express purpose of being the perfect Sacrificial Lamb. Each and everyone of us are responsible for the nails driven into his flesh. The catholic church took it upon themselves to change Sabbath to Sunday. Even some of their own priests, bishops, etc have freely admitted that Sunday is not and never was Sabbath. I have heard it said that if Wesley, Luther, Calvin and others who were instrumental in separating from the catholic church had gone back to honoring Sabbath instead of sunday, the catholic church might not have survived.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:07 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Hiskid,

    Amen. I've often said that. There is a Church that Christ built, but it wasn't the catholic church. They came around a couple centuries later, perverting the truth. People were being duped left and right. It's amazing how effective Satan's lies are. Fortunately, there were many in the church that saw the catholic church for what it was, and started the reformation, to get back to the truth. Praise God.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:43 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    continental, Christ did not found the Church on Peter, but on the Truth of what Peter said, God founded the Church with His Son as the Cornerstone and Foundation.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:42 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    continental, we need to check out the ComingHome channel as much as we need to check out the TBN channel. Both are nothing more than propaganda networks, one on behalf of roman catholics and the other on behalf of the name it and claim it crowd.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:39 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    DITL, to a point we are because one does not recieve the Holy Spirit until they choose to accept God's free gift of salvation. Until they turn from the direction they are going and turn to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone. Up until the time we become a Christian the Holy Spirit is working from the outside in, but once we do become a Christian, He immediately indwells us and begins to work from the inside out.

  • Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:07 am Agree: 6   Disagree: 1

    Counting converts as a measure of success? Seriously?

    This has been my point all along;
    It's not up to man nor an institution to save souls but it is God alone Who is responsible for the growth of His Church. Man's efforts cannot add to God's "numbers".

    And yet, He gets no Glory from you who count heads, for HIS work in salvation. Shameful oversight, no?

    Salvation is of the LORD and for men to glory in the number of "converts" as a measure of success or as evidence of orthodoxy is the height of prideful ambition and lust for power.
    Truely sickening.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:54 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Continental,

    That's even worse. Catholics claim that Jesus made Peter the rock upon which He built His Church (which Peter explained wasn't what He meant at all). So, that means that Jesus must have given Peter some special place. And for catholics to ignore Peter's teachings is a slap in Jesus' face.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    jar1961Says:There are very few differences in Protestantism... among the leading issue is the subject of baptism. And all Protestants are united except for the liberal off shoots. We attend Evangelical Conferences with multidenominational attendance.... the only ones who dont come are th RCCs.... and with onloy 3-5 different forms of Catholicism... every one of them is at odds with the RCC..... and by the way I was an RCC until 2001.



    ContinentalSays:This is just not true. I have listened to the testimony of too many converts to Catholicism over the past 20 years to know that. And BTW, in these 20 years more than 1000 Protestant ministers have become Catholic in the USA. You need to check out the Coming Home Network which has chronicled these. God has truly been faithful and blessed the Church. Sure, many like you have left, but the door swings both ways. My Church in the South has many converts every year. Our southern diocese is the fastest growing diocese in the country because of converts, praise our good and gracious God. And we are only a couple of hours from Bob Jones University! God is good all time!!!!!!

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    ProphetSays:The catholics claim that Peter was the founder of their "church". But it is apparent that the protestants are the only ones who adhere to his teaching. Ironic.
    ContinentalSays: Please read scripture. Jesus founded the Church on Peter. Our "claim" is based on scripture. In the OT changing a person's name was always an indication of a watershed moment (Abram-Abraham for example). Jesus changed his name from Simon to Peter and gave him the keys to the kingdom. It is all very biblical. Now Protestants usually claim that the Petra and Petros (Greek) denote different things and deny that meaning. But consider that this scripture was originally in Aramaic where there was no such distinction. Note that at the first church council in Jerusalem, it was Peter who was looked to as the one with authority. Be a scholar of the Bible and Church history. It will change your perspective.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:49 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    DITL,

    "The part I see overlooked by many contempory Christians is in giving the work of God it's proper acknowledgement. It seems that Christianity has been secularized to a degree; the Gospel a watered-down product marketed to the masses that may not include the supernatural work of God in salvation."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Amen. It is truth.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:36 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 2

    Continental said, "...(The pope and the bishops are their successors)..."

    The pope has no support from the word of God for his supreme office of earthly crown and throne among the body of Christ. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:48 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Believer, glad to find agreement with you. To put a finer point to it; the Holy Spirit first draws one, convicts one of sin and when we *receive* the Holy Spirit then we are then able to repent, obey and to follow. Are we still in agreement?

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    >>"hope you don't feel I'm being argumentive.">>

    Prolly not in this case. ;D

    The part I see overlooked by many contempory Christians is in giving the work of God it's proper acknowledgement. It seems that Christianity has been secularized to a degree; the Gospel a watered-down product marketed to the masses that may not include the supernatural work of God in salvation.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "They already believed themselves to be following Scripture but something was missing...and that is submission to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in relationship with Christ."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I know you were completing the point I was making. And I hope you don't feel I'm being argumentive. We are saying the same thing, but in different ways. You said "They already believed themselves to be following Scripture..." The operative word in your comment is "believed". Though they "believed" they were following the Scriptures, they were in deed not. Much like the homosexual "Christians" "believing" they are following the Scriptures, when they are not.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    DITL, yes I do and in fact I agree with you 100% that it is the Holy Spirit's role to draw us to the saving grace of God and convict us to the point that we come to see we need a Savior. And then it is up to us to choose to accept or reject God's free gift of salvation through the person and finished work of Christ alone. Plus, as I said to not make a choice equates to rejecting God's plan of salvation.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Of course prophet, one can only follow the Scripture if the Holy Spirit leads us in all truth; your statement did not reflect this very imporant work God does on OUR behalf.

    Do you suppose I could advise the "many" in Matt 7:22 to just follow Scripture? Would this be profitable advice in itself? They already believed themselves to be following Scripture but something was missing...and that is submission to the guidance of the Holy Spirit in relationship with Christ.

    Rather than contradicting what you said, I completed the point you were making.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:10 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Hi Believer,

    Do you believe we are capable of true repentance without the initial drawing of the Holy Spirit?

    In my view, if a man can repent apart from God, then repentance would be a work.

    On the other hand, if the Holy Spirit draws and convicts one, then repentance is merely a response from man to the love of God.
    Do you see my point?

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:06 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    DITL, I should also say that by not making a choice, they do indeed choose to reject it!

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:04 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    DITL, there is absolutely nothing a person can do to save themselves. Salvation is all of God and when a person comes to realize that they have one of two choices, they can accept it or they can reject it, but they must do one or the other, salvation does not happen by osmosis. They can either continue going in the direction they are going with their life or they can turn to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:14 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    You cannot follow the Scriptures without following the Spirit. When the Scripture speaks often against many of the things that Mormons, JW's, Catholics, and a plethora of other cults teach. They can say they are following the Scriptures, but they are indeed not.

    When the Scriptures say to walk in the Spirit so that you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, then you will be indeed walking in the Spirit and will not be persuaded by false teachings.
    If a group "says" they are following the Scriptures, but their works show otherwise, are you inclined to believe them?

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    My point;

    Following the words of Scripture, the "law" of Scripture withouth the Spirit versus following in Christs footsteps with a submissive heart.

    Many Mormons live Scripture but do not know Christ, as an example.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    DITL,

    "Let's not overlook submission to God in all things bringing about "perfection". I know of many people who can quote Scripture, who know it inside out... and who are not submitted to God; the Pharisee is an example."


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I agree. That is why I said "Actually, what it's saying is that FOLLOWING Scripture will bring you into perfection. Nothing else." I never said "reading the Scriptures" will bring you into perfection. LOL. I know it's easy to overlook a word. I do it all the time.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:44 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    >>"Actually, what it's saying is that following Scripture will bring you into perfection. Nothing else.">>

    Let's not overlook submission to God in all things bringing about "perfection". I know of many people who can quote Scripture, who know it inside out... and who are not submitted to God; the Pharisee is an example.

    On the other hand, I'm aware of people with learning disabilities who are unable to study out the words of Scripture, but their hearts are submitted to God. This is a work of a Holy God; following Scripture without a heart submitted to God is works.

    It is not knowledge of Scripture that brings us into "perfection"; it is a soft heart, submitted to God. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies, right?

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 3

    Believer, your comment to continental, " they say that works are a mandatory part of one's salvation experience, no works no salvation."

    I'm understanding from you that it's your position that works cannot add to salvation, is this right?

    From what you have written over time and what I've learned of your theology, it seems you believe that SOME works are required for salvation; unless I am missing your point that one has to realize their need for salvation to repent and be saved.

    You then say we need to "choose" Jesus Christ. But "choosing" IS a work... and so is the realization of a need to be saved. From what I understand from you, this realization for salvation takes place apart from the initial drawing of the Holy Spirit. After all IF John 6:44 means what it says, then the initiation of the Holy Spirit choosing/electing man FIRST puts the idea of man "choosing" to repent and follow Christ in error.


    Election by God removes us far from any kind of "works".

    If salvation is up to man's "choice" of God then belief IS man's work.

    But Scripture says man is depraved and God is merciful to whom He chooses, doesn't it?

    I don't mean to beat dead horses with you on this subject,B, I am just sincerely trying to understand your beliefs in the "works vs Grace" issue.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:14 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    continental, although your view of works with regards to its part in salvation may be that, according to many roman catholic posters, to include msnchris, they say that works are a mandatory part of one's salvation experience, no works no salvation.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:11 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    chris, once again Sola Scriptura does not mean the Word of God alone, but rather the Word of God is the final authority in all matters of doctrine and faith. As long as the extra-biblical teachings and traditions do not contradict, violate, or supersede the Word of God there is no problem with those extra-biblical teachings or traditions.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:08 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    continental, if you're going to cite the posts of others please cite the whole post. Granted Phillip was one of the original 12 Apostles. But if the Holy Spirit hadn't led him chances are he would have never had his encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch. That same Holy Spirit indwells every believer the moment one comes to accept Christ as Savior and Lord and that same Holy Spirit can and does lead any believer who allows Him to be used of God as Phillip was used of God with regard to his encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch. It had nothing to do with Phillip being an Apostle, but rather it had every thing to do with Phillip being surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit and being led by the Holy Spirit which is available to any believer who is indeed surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and the control of the Holy Spirit in their life.

  • Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:58 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    The catholics claim that Peter was the founder of their "church". But it is apparent that the protestants are the only ones who adhere to his teaching. Ironic.

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