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Lesbian Moves Forward in Ordination Amid Debate

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Christian Post Reporter
Sun, Jan. 20 2008 12:04 PM ET
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An openly lesbian minister's bid to join the clergy may be the first national test of a controversial policy adopted by the Presbyterian Church (USA).

After being denied ordination twice over the past couple of decades because of a ban on ordaining openly gay persons, Lisa Larges made some headway this past week when she gained support from a regional body of the PC(USA).

The San Francisco Presbytery voted Tuesday 167-151 to support Larges' application for ministry. The vote came after a long debate and despite warnings that the action violated the church's constitution and would be appealed.

According to its constitution, the PC(USA) requires "fidelity in marriage between a man and a woman" or "chastity in singleness" for its clergy.

But Larges' third bid comes after the Presbyterian national assembly adopted an "authoritative interpretation" of the ordination standard in 2006 – a decision that opponents say allows some leeway to churches for homosexual ordination.

Larges' latest attempt is thought to be the first test of the 2006 policy, said Jerry Van Marter, news director for the PC(USA).

"I'm in shock," Larges, 44, said of the support she's receiving, according to The Los Angeles Times. "I still feel stunned, honestly, and deeply grateful both to the folks who supported me and to the presbytery for stepping up."

Larges must pass an oral examination, known as the "trials of ordination," by the presbytery before she can be ordained. The test can come as early as April.

But many are hoping to halt the process.

The Rev. Mary Naegeli, who opposed the Larges' ordination on Tuesday, said they are taking "immediate steps" to stop the ordination process. "This really is the defining case for the Presbyterian church on this question."

Larges told the LA Times that she couldn't pursue ministry and stay in the closet after graduating from San Francisco Theological Seminary. She applied for candidacy in the Twin Cities presbytery but was turned down in 1992. She was again rejected for ordination in 2004 by the committee that oversaw candidates for ordination for the San Francisco Presbytery. But the committee let her continue as a candidate.

When the General Assembly approved the policy change in 2006, she decided to try for a third time.

In a "statement of departure," Larges has written that she cannot abide by the church's requirement that she be married to a man or be celibate in order to become a minister.

While Larges has been commended for her giftedness in the ministry and her dedication to her cause, many are opposed to her joining the clergy.

"Lisa has publicly and without ambiguity stated that she will not comply with a requirement for ordination," Naegeli said. "The problem is not the fact that she disagrees with a feature of the church constitution, but that she won't abide by it. And that's a very important distinction."

Also weighing in on the controversy, James D. Berkley, Director of Institute on Religion and Democracy's Presbyterian Action Committee, commented, "A requirement should be required. A standard ought to be standard across the denomination. San Francisco Presbytery has capitulated to the spirit of the age, ignoring the clear and consistent witness of the Bible, our Presbyterian creeds and constitution, and repeated, overwhelming decisions by the church here, abroad, and across the ages."

Following the 2006 General Assembly decision, several Presbyterian churches have taken steps to withdraw from the national church. The churches have opposed the liberal direction the denomination is going on homosexuality as well as other issues, including the singular lordship of Jesus Christ.

The gay ordination issue is expected to be taken up again at PC(USA)'s biennial General Assembly in June.

The PC(USA) is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the country with 2.3 million members.

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wilderness
  • Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:34 pm
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Yes, may Lisa be honest about who she is in light of the Word of God, and come to repentance. May she and others in the same bondage come to know new life in Christ.
SheQuon
  • Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:17 pm
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"Look at all previous society's with "liberal" sexual values and how they were all conquered or destroyed or judged, or all of the above - excelent examples of this are Pompei, Greece, Roman Empire, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. They all had one thing in common - sexual promiscuity with everything and anything, anytime, and anyhow. When a culture is obsessed with sex, it becomes idolatry."

I have seen this woman Lisa Larges in interviews--and anyone who has also seen her would laugh their heads off at the idea that she is "obsessed with sex"! Wanting to be happy in life is not the same thing as a sexual obsession. I would rather she be honest about who she is than enter into a sham marriage or be celibate not by choice.
star2
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:23 pm
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maranatha7593

Re: Generational curses are not from God. All are born in sin, but God offers forgiveness, healing, and deliverance.

Hopefully, one day they will experience the forgiveness, healing, and deliverance that only God can provide.
star2
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:30 pm
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maranatha7593

Re: Generational curses are not from God. All are born in sin, but God offers forgiveness, healing, and deliverance.


Amen.
maranatha7593
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:16 am
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"Generational curse? If you believe that, then you are conceeding that we are indeed born gay."

Generational curses are not from God. All are born in sin, but God offers forgiveness, healing, and deliverance.
jesus4me
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:28 am
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maranatha wrote:

"Unfortunately, this is happening in many denominations - Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and probably more.

It is simply evidence of an apostate church which has abandoned the Word of God and has substituted its own thoughts for His.

God help Bible-believing Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, and all the rest to stand strong in His Word and not be deluded by deceiving spirits."

maranatha, i could not agree with you more. This is a definite sign of the end times, and the "post modern" Emergent Church and the Ecumenical Movement are only adding fuel to the fire. Some on this post who still think God is OK with homosexuality, or forication, or adultery, or living in any kind of blatant sexual sin outside of the clear context of sexual union set forth in Scripture which is for one man and one woman joined in holy matrimony for life, are being deceived by lying doctrines of demons. If they consider themselves to be born again, ten they better take the Bible seriously, and not try to water it down like many are doing so they can justify their lifestyle choices ad tink God is ok with them. They should read the latter Epistles ad the Book of Jude for an eye opening experience and hopefully one that opens their eyes to the Truth of Christ.

Look at all previous society's with "liberal" sexual values and how they were all conquered or destroyed or judged, or all of the above - excelent examples of this are Pompei, Greece, Roman Empire, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. They all had one thing in common - sexual promiscuity with everything and anything, anytime, and anyhow. When a culture is obsessed with sex, it becomes idolatry.
jesus4me
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:14 am
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I must say again the Bible is the absolute truth of God. If everything else in this confused and twisted world doesn't make sense, then that is why we have the Bible. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore, the fornicator, the adulterer, the thief, the pedophile, the pornographer, the bisexual, transsexual, homosexual, liar, etc all have sinned. We all need a Savior, and it doesn't matter the sin, all it takes is one sin to be separated from God. This is why we must all come to repentance; whatever the vice is. We all suffer from one common thing, and that is a fallen sinful nature. I have never said that homosexuality is the unforgivable sin; however, I have always said that just like the adulterer, the homosexual needs to acknowledge that his/her desires are contrary to the natural uses God made us humans to be, and come to grips with his/her fleshly desire that is contrary to God, and repent if he/she wants to be born again. You cannot be born again and be openly practicing the homosexual lifestyle, because it would contradict the new life that we have in Christ. Please don't misinterpret me, this is not to mean that a person who has come out of that lifestyle who just gave their life to Christ will not struggle with this sin, but if they are born again, they will willfully acknowledge their temptations, their weaknesses, and their struggles, and go back to God with them, confess them to Him, and ask Him to grant more Grace for them to turn their backs on the sin, and to pick up their crosses daily and follow Christ.
jesus4me
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:13 am
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New King James Version)

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Footnotes:

a. 1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites


continued:

1 Kings 14:24

24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.


Leviticus 18:22
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

The leviticus passage really leaves no room for interpretation does it?


continued:

A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality) (Deuteronomy 23:17; 1 Kings 14:24;15:12;22:46; 2 Kings 23:7; Job)
And is applied to males (Deuteronomy 23:17)
Destroyed by fire as a judgement (Genesis 19:24,25)
Wickedness of (Genesis 19:4-14)
The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in (Genesis 38:21,22)
And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite" (Hosea 4:14)
To be judged according to opportunity (Matthew 11:24; Luke 10:12)
See SODOMY"
jesus4me
  • Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:13 am
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The Bible nowhere exhorts us to be complacent in our Christianity; nor does it exhort us to accept Christ in a prayer one day, and then just live to please the flesh, and then rationalize like the gnostics did in the first century church - "after all, there is the love and grace of God; He understands, I can sin today, and just ask for foirgiveness tomorrow." This is illogical, and contrary to the Word of God. Some on this site, because of whatever reason have chosen to be more flax on homosexuality, and have gone as far as to say they are not sure it is a sin. Well, biblically speaking it is a sin, and if God says it's sin, who am I to say otherwise? My problem with some on this site is that they try to rationalize (water down) sin, or they misinterpret the Bible to adapt to a personal sin, or someone they love who is dealing with something that is a sin, so what do they do? rather than admitting that the sin is sin, and just confessing it to God as sin, and asking God to remove the "fleshly lust" or watever other sin from their lives, they refuse to acknowledge it as sin, and further, will mock, or antagonize those of us who rather follow the whole counsel of God.

We are commanded to love (NOT TOLERATE) homosexuals, as well as adulterers, fornicators, liars, etc; we are called to love all our enemies, but we are called to hate sin. Therefore, let the truth be told in love, but nevertheless, the truth must be proclaimed- we love the sinner, but cannot condone the sin. we cannot and should not as born again believers water down sin. This is the problem with the modern day church - they water down Scripture to suit the itching ears of those who are listening rather than just teach the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts unto repentance and following Christ out of a pure heart.
Rand503
  • Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:08 pm
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Honesty: Sorry, but I'm not deeply wounded in my soul from anything in my past. I was indeed born gay, as I only recall same sex attractions at any age. Generational curse? If you believe that, then you are conceeding that we are indeed born gay.
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