A surprising new survey out Monday found that more born again Christian voters said they would support a Democratic candidate than a Republican candidate, breaking the long tradition of born-again support for the GOP.
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(Photo: AP IMages / Laramie Boomerang, Andy Carpenean)Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama, D-Ill., greets supporters during a
The new Barna study shows that if the general election was held today, 40 percent of all born again adults who are likely to vote in November would choose the Democratic candidate, and only 29 percent would choose the Republican candidate. The remaining 28 percent are currently unsure whom they would support, preferring to vote for a specific candidate rather than strictly along party lines.
“Given the large percentage of undecided voters, it is possible that the Republican candidate might eventually win a majority of the born again vote,” said George Barna, whose firm conducted the national survey. “However, it will not be easy to win them over.”
Barna noted that several factors are working against the Republican candidates including their stance on social issues and the “personal integrity” of some of the contenders.
If the election was held today and all the candidates from both parties were on the ballot, the frontrunners among born again voters would be Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.), favored by 20 percent of born again likely voters; Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), favored by 18 percent of voters; and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee with 12 percent. No other candidate reached double figures.
Thirty percent of born again likely voters said they are still undecided as to who to support.
Similarly, a poll by GodTube.com on Monday showed that Christian voters currently favor Democrats over Republicans. The new poll found that 43.9 percent of Christian voters support the leading two Democratic candidates while 34.7 percent back Republican candidate Mike Huckabee.
Obama received a 35 percent increase in the poll since Jan. 27, 2008, giving him 24.3 percent of the votes. Meanwhile, Clinton received a huge 78 percent increase giving her 19.6 percent of the votes, and Huckabee slipped 37 percent.
“From our poll, it’s clear the candidate’s platforms and political issues are weighing heavily on Christian voters in this election,” said Chris Wyatt, CEO and founder of GodTube. “It appears the Christian vote is still up for grabs, which we’ve seen in the past can swing an election.”
In the Barna survey, evangelicals – a subset of the born again population as defined by the study – showed a higher percentage of support for the Republican nominee.
If the election were held today, 45 percent of evangelicals say they would support the Republican nominee for president, and 11 percent would support the Democratic candidate. Yet perhaps more significantly is the 40 percent of evangelicals that are still undecided.
This figure is shocking, given that 62 percent of evangelicals voted for the Republican candidate in 1992, 67 percent supported the party in 1996 and in 2000, and 85 percent in 2004.
“Evangelicals are clearly sending a message to Republican leaders this time around,” commented Barna. “There is tremendous frustration among evangelical voters, in particular … given the stands of some of the leading Republican contenders, evangelicals are registering their discomfort with the choices they have at hand.” Continue >>
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Scara,
You are right. But Jesus also told us to be a light unto the world...a city on a hill that can't be hid. We are to speak the truth. And He didn't say we shouldn't care about what went on here on earth.
I agree that things will get much worse, and probably soon. But not as soon as if we Christians sat around on our thumbs and did nothing. God expects us to have an effect on this world while we're here. After all, He did give this earth to us.
Here's the real problem as I see it. Jesus said we were IN this world but not OF this world. He also said that if His kingdom WERE of this world "...then would my disciples fight". He also made a clear distinction between earthly governments and the Celestial one by saying that we were to "render unto Caesar what belongs to him but render unto God what belongs to Him". Furthermore, the books of Revelation, Daniel, the four Gospels, I&II Thessalonians and many others tell us this world is not going to get better but worse and eventually will end in fire...so why on earth are we so given to meddling with the stuff of earth? Let the heathens have this world and all its folly. Our citizenship is in Heaven! What are we trying to do; "help" God by voting for the "right" candidates so He can then rule and reign?!
Did God stop being sovereign when Bill Clinton sat on the throne? Was he more sovereign because GW Bush was a Republican? Why are we trying to vote in a candidate based on the issues of abortion and gay "marriage" when the Bible teaches that it's a renewed mind and not passed legislation that God is looking for. Let's witness to these folks and then get them saved. That's the one sure way to stop abortions and homosexuality in the good ol' USA and it's the one thing the church is conspicuously lacking in...TRUE WITNESS.
My personal feeling is that we vote folks into office so they can take the weight off of our shoulders in terms of fulfilling the Great Commission.
Bush had 8 years to issue an Executive Order to stop any and all abortions in the US but he didn't. Sure Congress would've overturned it but WHAT A WITNESS THAT WOULD'VE BEEN!
Let the state be the state and the Church the Church.
We were born here but our citizenship is in Heaven.
In the Bible God said choose life: De 30:19 - "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
God will judge those guilty of shedding innocent blood: De 19:13 - "Show him no pity. You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you."
The Bible says the sin of homosexuality is detestable to God: Le 18:22 -
"'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Being pro-life, pro-traditional marriage and anti-sodomy is being on God's side. Jesus said "You will always have the poor with you." So poverty is not paramount. I know, I've survived it. Although, I would never have survived abortion. Neither would I allow the schools to teach my children that sodomy is just another lifestyle...it is a detestable sin.
These values and positions on issues generally resonate with the Republican candidates.
Both Obama and Clinton are pro-abortion and pro-so-called homosexual marriage (state sanctioned sodomy). These are the anti-God positions. They contradict His law.
Christians are not here to make sinners feel good about their sins. We are here to call them to repentance and to take a stand against evil in society. The government is God's agent, Romans 1, and as such should not sanction what God calls sin.
A vote for Hillary or Obama is a vote for moral relativism and evil.
Although I have always voted Republician, I only ID myself as a conservative. However, I have never seen a Democract that has my values. First of all, I am pro-life. Next, I am pro-family and pro-marriage between only a man and woman. These are the values I want my government to support. In addition to those values, I very much care about and minister to the poor through my church. I don't expect the goverment to do that. It is the role of the church not government. My church can get more value from my money in minstering to the poor than the goverment can get. Our government takes three dollars to get only one dollar of service to the needy. That is not good stewardship.
Statistics of Senators running for office by The American Conservative Union:
Obama
2006 – 8
2005 – 8
Years – 2
Life Time Voting Record – 8.0
Clinton
2006 – 8
2005 – 12
Years – 6
Life Time Voting Record – 9.0
McCain
2006 – 65
2005 – 80
Years – 20
Life Time Voting Record – 82.3
ACU tracks a wide variety of issues before Congress, ranging from taxes to spending and national security to abortion. Accordingly, our ratings encompass three general categories: (1) economic and budget matters; (2) social and cultural issues, and (3) defense and foreign policy. ACU endeavors to analyze votes from each category in order to obtain a balanced, comprehensive picture of an individual member's ideological predisposition based upon recorded records.
Each member of the House and Senate is rated on a scale of 0 to 100.
The purpose of the "Rating" is to inform the public, in as unbiased a method as possible, exactly where individual Senators and Members of the House stand on the ideological spectrum from liberal to conservative.
http://conservative.org/archive2/ratingssummary06.asp
Being born-again means that we are in this world but not of this world.
Amen Prophet! Just because a person claims they are born again, are they? When you are born of the Spirit, you walk in the Light as HE is in the Light; and The Word of God says that we should look at the FRUIT of a person's life; that will tell us if they are trusting and obeying God and His Word!
We are born of the flesh and the Spirit. You can know when a person is walking in obedience to God. This doesn't mean we are perfect; but we are being perfected.
How someone could look at the fruit of the democratic candidates lives and say they follow Jesus, I do not see this!
God tells us to not condemn ourselves by what we approve. When people get out there and say, Abortion is okay, sexual immorality is okay, this is not fruit of the Spirit.
When I look at a candidate, I look for someone who is following Jesus Christ; through their lifestyle as well as their talk!
I do not leave my faith at the door of the voting booth. I pray that God's man is elected and I ask The Holy Spirit to guide my choice!
God's will be done, not ours!
Getting back on track, it will be interesting to see where the vote goes as the "Born-agains" take a closer look at Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton given their very liberal social stances - unregulated abortion, legalizing immorality, etc. Also, I heard Mr. Obama making lots of promises of give away programs that just did not make sense in terms of how this would be paid for.
Will be interesting...
My relationship with Jesus Christ goes everywhere with me, it is not something I "check at the door", and NEVER WILL.
cistonga,
You said "As an agnostic, I am here to see what Christian extremists are up to. My concern is the encroachment of religion into government, the courts and the schools. I am a strong advocate of separation of chruch & state. Please keep your religion where it belongs- r church & home. Believe what you will, but dont impose your religious views on others."
This is a Christian website, for Pete's sake! Of course you're gonna find Christians on here speaking the Word of God and their opnions. Duh. This isn't some radical, militant religious site that is used for orchestrating coups and such. Do you find conspiracies around every corner or what?
You are not here to "keep religion out of the government." You are here, as we are, to express your opinion....and nothing more. Quit being so melodramatic. You're just another person, with another opnion.
I could go onto an athiest website and say "My concern is the encroachment of the government into religion." But I don't. Because that would be a lie. Those people who are trying to keep religion out of government with the cry of "separation and church", are in the same breath trying to get the government to control religion. They want to government to control what we can and cannot say or believe. Sounds two-faced to me.
citsonga-
“As an agnostic, I am here to see what Christian extremists are up to. My concern is the encroachment of religion into government, the courts and the schools. I am a strong advocate of separation of chruch & state. Please keep your religion where it belongs- r church & home. Believe what you will, but dont impose your religious views on others.”
I wish you and other naturalists would realize how ridiculous this sounds. Atheism/secularism/humanism is just as much a religion as Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. There’s no such thing as neutrality regarding the kinds of questions that religion (or worldview) tries to answer. These questions include whether or not God exists, what kind of God exists, where/how did everything come from, what happens after we die, where do we get morality from, what is moral, how should we live, why is there evil and suffering, etc. Atheists have answers to each one of these questions and they very clearly affect their public policies and actions, just like it does Christians. All this talk about keeping morality and religion out of government is a smokescreen to avoid the real issue about what the right answers are to these questions. I wish you or some atheist would be honest enough to admit that.
john: "Why do you [atheists] all come here ?"
As an agnostic, I am here to see what Christian extremists are up to. My concern is the encroachment of religion into government, the courts and the schools. I am a strong advocate of separation of chruch & state. Please keep your religion where it belongs- r church & home. Believe what you will, but dont impose your religious views on others.
John,
No, they never leave.
Quote from below: "Born again" is in your boring book of fairy tales? That's nice. I still think growing up makes more sense than being born again.
Who's the one that needs to grow up? You have a Christian news website with a forum that is populated by immature atheists. Why do you all come here? Maybe what mommy taught you does not seem right, and your exploring Christianity? Hope so. If anyone should grow up, it is self centered, childish idiots like you that have nothing better to do than polluting this forum with your anti God attacks. I'm going to take a break from here for a while, and hopefully you people will find an atheist website where you can run your mouths about how stupid Christianity is amongst yourselves. Over and out for a few months.
Bob wrote:
John5796: "It's all in the bible."
"Born again" is in your boring book of fairy tales? That's nice. I still think growing up makes more sense than being born again. "
Oh, and Bob, before I forget, the next time you call the Word of God "your borig book of fairy tales" just remember to check your history in context, and make extra sure that you read up on the nuber one book in all of humanity to be printed, sold and translated - The Holy Bible; God's infallible, inspired Word and Will for all of mankind. You may choose to reject Him and His words, but you know what, He still loves you, and gave His Son Jesus Christ so that you may have a relationship with God the Father. Today if you hear the voice of the Lord thru His Word, do not harden your heart; rather, repent ad give your life to the Creator God of the Universe and believ on His So Jesus Christ- the One and Only Way to God.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:2-4 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
John 3:7
Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:6-8 (in Context) John 3 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 1:23
having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
1 Peter 1:22-24 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
bob,
John Chapter 3.
"Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
See, you, like Nicodemus, are thinking that being born again is a physical act. Jesus points out that it is not. You are born into the flesh the first time, and unless you are reborn into the spirit, you will not see heaven.
Slacker,
I am sorry for what I said. You didnt have quotes around it the first time, so I thought that it was your viewpoint. You don't necessarily have to say who quoted it, but if it had quotations around it, I would have known that you were taking it from someone elses post. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
I thad me confused, too. LOL. You were saying one thing in one paragraph, and then contradicting yourself in the next. I just figured you were just slightly mentally imbalanced..lol. I'm glad to see I was wrong about that.
Someone said: "I don't understand this concept "Born Again"
It's all in the bible. But then again, you have be intelligent enough to know how to read. I suggest you get a picture bible.
No problem Slacker, just please, in the future when you quote someone, put down who you're quoting, so we don't think you're mixing in with the non-believers, atheists, and the left-wing looney liberal christians, on this board. I (We) forgive you brother.
Prophet wrote:
"Wow, and I was beginning to think that Slacker was a Christian. Boy was I wrong."
Prophet, I believe he is a Christian; I think he just left out the name of who he was quoting before. Believe me, I was confused by his post as well, but this is what he wrote after my response to him:
Slacker worte:
"I was quoting tgender from several post ago...."
and
"Sorry I left out the quote marks i appologize for the confusion...."
"Oh, and Slacker, before I forget, you said the Bible was the "largest outdated book in human history". Next time you check your history in context, make sure you read up on the nuber one book in all of humanity to be printed, sold and translated - The Holy Bible; God's infallible, inspired Word and Will for all of mankind. You may choose to reject Him and His words, but you know what, He still loves you, and gave His Son Jesus Christ so that you may have a relationship with God the Father. Today if you hear the voice of the Lord thru His Word, do not harden your heart; rather, repent ad give your life to the Creator God of the Universe and believ on His So Jesus Christ- the One and Only Way to God. "
I agree with this 100%, I give my creator 100% of the glory, his is what sustains me thru out and I praise him everyday for the grace and mercy that he showed me by saving my from my sins....
I was quoting tgender from several post ago....
"If someone lives by the word of God it is not shoving anything down anyones throut, it is living by the truth, just because you don't see it as that way doesn't mean that Jesus4me is doing anything wrong...
who said it was wrong? i just said it's annoying and condescending the way jesus4me is throwing around bible verses towards someone who more than likely is well aware of what the bible says. It's like jesus4me is trying to be like jesus and fish for men when there is no fishing to be done. And i hate it when people try to put jesus in everything. Who are you to decide whether jesus is a part of something or not? Who are you to demand people to believe in your faith? Let people find God in their own way, don't throw verses from the largest outdated book in human history. And yes it is outdated, why do you think it can't answer the abortion question or gay marriage? People like jesus4me need to get the angel dust out of their eyes and adapt to the times. THAT is how to best embody Jesus and His teachings. He was the Great Adapter, and His parables are my proof. "
This was my response....
How in the world can you live by Jesus's principle's if you yourself say that his book is outdated... If you would bother to read the bible you would know that God values life and that homosexuality is a Sin, but being that it comes from an "outdated" book how in the world can you also use Jesus parables, and you call me Lazy... Please...
Sorry I left out the quote marks i appologize for the confusion....
Lastly, Slacker wrote:
"THAT is how to best embody Jesus and His teachings. He was the Great Adapter, and His parables are my proof."
1. Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
3. Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:23-25 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
Oh, and Slacker, before I forget, you said the Bible was the "largest outdated book in human history". Next time you check your history in context, make sure you read up on the nuber one book in all of humanity to be printed, sold and translated - The Holy Bible; God's infallible, inspired Word and Will for all of mankind. You may choose to reject Him and His words, but you know what, He still loves you, and gave His Son Jesus Christ so that you may have a relationship with God the Father. Today if you hear the voice of the Lord thru His Word, do not harden your heart; rather, repent ad give your life to the Creator God of the Universe and believ on His So Jesus Christ- the One and Only Way to God.
Furthermore, Slacker wrote:
"People like jesus4me need to get the angel dust out of their eyes and adapt to the times."
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
Result pages:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Slacker also wrote:
"And yes it is outdated, why do you think it can't answer the abortion question or gay marriage?"
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 6:9 That is, catamites
and,
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Slacker wrote:
"Let people find God in their own way, don't throw verses from the largest outdated book in human history."
John 14:6 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Wow, and I was beginning to think that Slacker was a Christian. Boy was I wrong.
orange,
"I am saying that using god to excuse the horrors of your actions is deplorable...." Yes, the "horrors" of my actions. Helping the needy. Raking leaves and shoveling snow for the elderly and disabled, working with Special Olympics, loving my neighbor, living a life of integrity....ALL TRULY HORRIBLE! God have mercy on my soul!
But you and I both know that is not horrible. So your evaluation of Christians is askew. All because we do those things...and then we have the gall to have an opinion about morality. If we would just keep our mouths shut, we would be the perfect little religious robots that society wants: People who help others, but have no opinion or convictions.
But that's religion. I'm not religious, and God is not a religion.
I have researched Obama and I have seen the video where he did NOT salute the flag, if you believe Snoop.com you would be just about anything.... Please you have the audacity to call me lazy but you believe that Rag....
If someone lives by the word of God it is not shoving anything down anyones throut, it is living by the truth, just because you don't see it as that way doesn't mean that Jesus4me is doing anything wrong...
who said it was wrong? i just said it's annoying and condescending the way jesus4me is throwing around bible verses towards someone who more than likely is well aware of what the bible says. It's like jesus4me is trying to be like jesus and fish for men when there is no fishing to be done. And i hate it when people try to put jesus in everything. Who are you to decide whether jesus is a part of something or not? Who are you to demand people to believe in your faith? Let people find God in their own way, don't throw verses from the largest outdated book in human history. And yes it is outdated, why do you think it can't answer the abortion question or gay marriage? People like jesus4me need to get the angel dust out of their eyes and adapt to the times. THAT is how to best embody Jesus and His teachings. He was the Great Adapter, and His parables are my proof.
How in the world can you live by Jesus's principle's if you yourself say that his book is outdated... If you would bother to read the bible you would know that God values life and that homosexuality is a Sin, but being that it comes from an "outdated" book how in the world can you also use Jesus parables, and you call me Lazy... Please...
agentorange-
I agree with you that many, many people have done evil things through the centuries in the name of God. But it doesn’t follow that all things done in the name of God are wrong just because some of them are. It is entirely possible that some (even many) things done in the name of God are right and true and are done with God’s blessing. We must use our God-given abilities to discern which of the many competing so-called revelations of God really is the true one and then follow that. And just so you know, unlike in the Koran in which it says that all infidels are to submit or be killed, the God of the Bible gave no such general command for Christians to kill all unbelievers. In fact, we are to love our enemies (even in the face of persecution).
Prophet,
“Yes, agentorange,
WWI, WWII, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, The Revolutionary War, etc, etc....all are the result of religion”
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that using god to excuse the horrors of your actions is deplorable and this is exactly what many have done throughout time and the actions of moses using god are no different.
nemjbs, Obama has denounced Louis Farrakhan's views and disagrees with the church's award. You cannot control every aspect of a person's personal views, even a spiritual mentor.
If Hitler truly believed what you say he believed, he would have stopped with the Jews. But he showed his true intentions. Which were not even remotely religious.
Yes, agentorange,
WWI, WWII, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, The Revolutionary War, etc, etc....all are the result of religion.
tgender,
“Those people were not innocent. God had judged their wickedness and was punishing them for it. There's no contradiction here. Your issue seems to be that you don't want God doing the judging, but since He's the Creator, He's also the Judge.”
What nonsense. People have used ‘god’ as their justification for some of the worse acts man has ever done. Osama bin laden and his terrorists use the ‘orders of gods will’ as a justification to fly buildings into towers, blow up churches and Buddhist temples and buildings. This is the same sort of ratnale that led to the crusades and for the Spanish conquistadors to baptize a native baby before bashing it’s brain in.
In Mein Kamp Hitler refered his actions of anti-Semitism directly b/c the ‘jews killed jesus’ and that he was ‘acting in accordance with the creator’. He even further reiterated this in public speeches in Reattach, Munich and others.
I am sorry tdgender, but anytime ANYONE uses ‘god told me so’ as an excuse to commit horrors and despotism onto humanity they can’t be taken seriously.
They use ‘god made me do you it’ as a ploy to excuse their actions, as if they have no control in the matter. It’s the grossly similar to the account of the Nuremberg trials where Nazi generals and subordinates said ‘they were just following orders from other high ranking officials’. This sort of subterfuge is an attempt to make us believe they weren’t the ones doing the killing, but they were. This is the same ploy employed by your book and many others that use ‘god’ as their excuse to kill and do as they please.
They could have took a stance as a ‘conscious objector’ like those in Vietnam, but naa. It’s much funner to go on a rampage and ‘kill every male young and old and all non-virgin women and girls in site, while keeping all the virgins for themselves’ just as mosses orders his legions to do early on in the OT.
‘thou shalt not kill’….oh… unless of course you’re killing non-jews in some other land that was never yours to begin with. ‘thou shalt not kill’ was like all the other OT laws and they ONLY applied to the Jews.
Ya that now that makes sense!
How do the acts of Moses and Joshua’s legions or any of the rampaging in the bible differ from any other maniac rampages of the Vistigoths, Mongols, Vikings, etc.? well, those latter ones didn’t use god as an excuse for their horrors, otherwise they are the same in every nasty detail. You think that putting ‘god made me do it’ in front of any action somehow excuses it, but it does not. It only speaks of how barbaric the sand nomads were and their attempt to rationalize it with their god.
I am shocked to see the high number of born again Christians that support Obama. Obama says he is a Christian and has attended Trinity United Church in Chicago for twenty years. Obama credits the senior minister Rev, Jeremiah Wright with leading him to Christ and says Rev. Wright is his spiritual advisor. The church has a magazine The Trumpet and last year it awarded The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Trumpeter Award to a man it said "truly epoiomized greatness." That man is Louis Farrakhan. I do not want my President seeking spiritual counsel from someone who thinks that Louis Farrakhan is a "truly great man."
Side note: Mitt Romney just dropped out of the race.
agentorange-
"Ya, just so long as you're not the inhabitants of Canaan before Moses comes to concur you. Also, what about all those they were 'utterly put to death by the sword' while moses and his legions were on their wat to Canaan?"
Those people were not innocent. God had judged their wickedness and was punishing them for it. There's no contradiction here. Your issue seems to be that you don't want God doing the judging, but since He's the Creator, He's also the Judge.
"Murdering innocent persons is everywhere condemned in Scripture. "
Ya, just so long as you're not the inhabitants of Canaan before Moses comes to concur you. Also, what about all those they were 'utterly put to death by the sword' while moses and his legions were on their wat to Canaan?
WiccanTexan,
Slacker: ""I refuse to back a president that doesn't salute the flag (obama)"
Seriously, good point Wiccan.
Too many people are too lazy and not willing to check things out to ensure they're true. Most (like Slacker) assumed that the event in which Obama didn't have his hand over his heart and wasn't singing the 'Pledge of Allegence' was true. As it appears, his name 'slacker' really lives up to his outlook, next time don't slack and check your sources...always.
Little did they realize that the song WASN'T the pledge of allegence and thus logically he couldn't have sung it! DuH!
i've also heard nonsense about Obama being (somehow) muslim???....wrong again, he was born to a muslim father, but really neither of his parents are overly religious anymore and are more so spritual.
And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? Matthew 19:4-5
Yep, sounds pretty cut and dried. No reference to any "homosexual mates" or "life partners", etc. Marriage is a big thing to God, and if homosexual marriages were okay, I'm sure He would have made that apparent. But it seems that reading into the scripture that which is not there is a common ploy among those who do not want to change, and who have no desire to attain to the image of Christ. People like that are "Christians" who just want to play church, not have anything expected of them, and live the life that they want to live. Basically: LAZY. They want the Word of God, and God Himself, to change into their image...to fit their agenda. Basically: IDOLATRY.
So, there you have a bunch of lazy idolatrous christians giving Christianity a bad name. God help us.
Apparently He Who Thinks is offended by the Word of God. As it is said it would. If he doesn't like reading all those scriptures, would someone inform him that he can just scroll down past them without reading them? I'm sorry for assuming that he knew to do that, but apparently not.
"Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"
He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
Matthew 15:10-14
Jesus Christ and all the Apostles, as well as the new testament are pretty clear that gay unions are outside of God's perfect Will. You can't argue that or wiggle your way out of that one ifeelfine; no matter how much you try to water down your interpretation of Scripture.
ifeelfine wrote:
"jesus4me cares about stuff that Jesus never talked about and is strangely silent on the stuff that was important to Jesus. "
Obviously, the Apostle Paul who was confronted by the Risen Lord Jesus Christ himself. spoke about what was important to Jesus.
Did not the Apostle Paul condemn active Homosexual behavior in Romans and his Letter to the Corinthian Church? Obviously that struck a nerve with you ifeelfine, because Jesus does feel strongly about that specific subject, and that is the subject which I have been patiently trying to exhort you on for several months now. See, your previous responses to me don't address your clear approval of Gay uniopns even while being Christian. Now I think it is you who needs to get a clue my friend.
He Who Thinks-
“It's like jesus4me is trying to be like jesus and fish for men when there is no fishing to be done.”
There’s always fishing to be done. Either people need to put their trust in Jesus for the first time or they need to grow to become His true disciple.
“And i hate it when people try to put jesus in everything. Who are you to decide whether jesus is a part of something or not?”
The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus created everything, sustains everything, and has authority over all things. See Col 1:15-20, Phil 2:5-11, Matt 28:18-20 for just a few examples.
“Who are you to demand people to believe in your faith? Let people find God in their own way, don't throw verses from the largest outdated book in human history.”
Christians didn’t make this stuff up. This is God’s revelation to man and we are to proclaim it to the world so that all people will know. Don’t view this as forcing our faith on you, but as letting you know of a cure to your terminal illness (the same one that all humans suffer from--separation from God due to our sin).
“And yes it is outdated, why do you think it can't answer the abortion question or gay marriage?”
I’m not sure what you’re talking about here. The Bible is very clear that God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman (Gen 2:24 and many other passages). That abortion is wrong is easily seen from Biblical principles. Man is made in the image of God and God creates each of us in other mother’s womb. Murdering innocent persons is everywhere condemned in Scripture.
jesus4me cares about stuff that Jesus never talked about and is strangely silent on the stuff that was important to Jesus.
"I refuse to back a president that doesn't salute the flag (obama)"
Slacker, you'd refuse to back a candidate because you're too lazy to do some very basic fact-checking? Try Snopes.com for this urban legend; Obama has never refused to salute the flag.
i believe people on here need to stop living in the middle ages. Newsflash: the crusades failed, the inquisition failed, televangelism failed. ADAPT!!
If someone lives by the word of God it is not shoving anything down anyones throut, it is living by the truth, just because you don't see it as that way doesn't mean that Jesus4me is doing anything wrong...
who said it was wrong? i just said it's annoying and condescending the way jesus4me is throwing around bible verses towards someone who more than likely is well aware of what the bible says. It's like jesus4me is trying to be like jesus and fish for men when there is no fishing to be done. And i hate it when people try to put jesus in everything. Who are you to decide whether jesus is a part of something or not? Who are you to demand people to believe in your faith? Let people find God in their own way, don't throw verses from the largest outdated book in human history. And yes it is outdated, why do you think it can't answer the abortion question or gay marriage? People like jesus4me need to get the angel dust out of their eyes and adapt to the times. THAT is how to best embody Jesus and His teachings. He was the Great Adapter, and His parables are my proof.
Jesus4me: So because of my comment, you are saying that I am not a Christian? That is exactly my point! You need to get a clue!!!! I am a Christian, I am saved, I am going to heaven when I die. You clearly have some issues that you need to work out as obviously from the strong reaction you gave, I clearly struck a nerve with you. Incidentally, I've said before that I don't think abortion is right, I believe that it is against God but that is my opinion - the Bible isn't specific about abortion. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. Jesus was not conservative, he was nothing of the sort. He was a liberal and a liberator.
BTW: That entire post wasn't directed towards Prophet - I was only commenting on his post about the Word not changing. Clearly it doesn't but Christian's interpretation of it does - and that is a fact!
Back to the story: Very misleading. Surprised at Barna.
You cannot conclude 40% for liberals when 28% are undecided.
Personally I don't see any of the canidates that I would be wholeheartedly putting my support behind, I refuse to back a president that doesn't salute the flag (obama) and i refuse to support a canidate that switches sides on an issue based on who it might offend (clinton). I refuse to support a canidate that will force their employees to perform acts that would oppose their beliefs (romney), and I refuse to back a canidate that will promote homosexuality in america (all of them)... I only fear God, I don't fear man, i fear man's actions will cause God's wrath to be poured out onto this world as it has been in the past...
jesus4me-
save your preaching for church. a real christian doesn't shove bible verses and psalm references down the throats of people. you just sound like your scoring points for the afterlife. knock it off.
If someone lives by the word of God it is not shoving anything down anyones throut, it is living by the truth, just because you don't see it as that way doesn't mean that Jesus4me is doing anything wrong...
Question:
What is Heaven, would it be a Theocracy? Seems like it would have to be based on what I see posted by the "believers".
Actually according to the bible, Jesus is to rule the nations with an Iron rod, it depends if you want to serve him or yourself. My response would be to not place blame on God or Jesus for the sins of Man, we all are not perfect, we make mistakes, it isn't right to corrolate those wrongs towards Jesus, because he is the only person that is perfect....
jesus4me-
save your preaching for church. a real christian doesn't shove bible verses and psalm references down the throats of people. you just sound like your scoring points for the afterlife. knock it off.
Question:
What is Heaven, would it be a Theocracy? Seems like it would have to be based on what I see posted by the "believers".
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
Galatians 6:6-8 (in Context) Galatians 6 (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 3:1
[ Not Carnality but Christ ] If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3:1-3 (in Context) Colossians 3 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:14-16 (in Context) Mark 1 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 6:12
So they went out and preached that people should repent.
Mark 6:11-13 (in Context) Mark 6 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:2-4 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 13:5
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
Luke 13:4-6 (in Context) Luke 13 (Whole Chapter)
Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Acts 3:18-20 (in Context) Acts 3 (Whole Chapter)
you don't hear much about repentance today because it's not "popular", and it doesn't "feel good" or make one feel all tingly inside, but it's in the Word. Also, if pastor/teachers would teach the Word from cover to cover and teach the Scriptures as entrusted of them by God to do, many more people who are Christians would grow in the faith; rather than being swayed by all winds of doctrine.
and again to ifeelfine72:
Romans 1:16-32 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”[b]
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Footnotes:
Romans 1:16 NU-Text omits of Christ.
Romans 1:17 Habakkuk 2:4
Romans 1:29 NU-Text omits sexual immorality.
Romans 1:31 NU-Text omits unforgiving.
Furthermore, continued to ifeelfine72:
We (conservative Born Again Christians) will vote our conscience as best as possible, but to whoever wins, then so be it. God is Sovereign, and you may look a little at biblical history my friend. God sometimes allows people to get what they "want", but that's not necessarily what they "need"; neither does it mean that it is in line with His Perfect Will. If America is Slouching toward Gomorrah, then God may be saying - so be it. Read Romans Chapter 1. You see, ifeelfine, the Scripture clearly says that narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life, and wide (broad) is the gate that leads to destruction. You see te ecumenical drive to "unite" all the world religions? there ar emany so-called "modern evangelicals" that think this is cool, but be careful my friend and ask God to open the eyes of your heart. I have exhorted you one too many times before, but you just don't get it. Maybe you're being influeced by many of the young people with a progressive mind in today's post modern culture. Whatever it is, I shall pray that God will reveal the truths of His Holy Word to you so you may be convicted of some of the things which apparently now, you don't seem to find wrong, but are clearly denounced in Scripture. Good night.
Here are some Scriptures to keep you company:
Matthew 7:13
[ The Narrow Way ] “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:12-14 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 7:14
Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-15 (in Context) Matthew 7 (Whole Chapter)
ifeelfine wrote:
"Prophet - Clearly many Christians think the Word of God does change. Notice how many folks have had a two-track mind here? Gay marriage, abortion, gay marriage, abortion. Neither of those things is mentioned in the Bible. What is mentioned in the Bible - more than 1000 times I might add - is how we are to treat the poor and least amongst us. Neither party gets it right - the death penalty, abortion, the treatment of the poor, etc - both sides have their pluses and minuses. It's appalling that all some so called "Christians" on this site can focus on are two issues. Get a clue folks! "
I , we don't need a clue. People are blind to sin in today's culture; they also don't want to hear that God forgives those who are broken and contrite of heart in front of Him, and trully want to know Him and allow Him to make changes in their lives. You mention we have a 2 track mind homosexuality and abortion. That is not correct. However, because you are one of those so called "liberal christians" who does not believe that homosexuality is a sin, and you yourself have stated this time and time again, and because the word abortion is not named in the Bible specifically, you tend to "interpret" the Scriptures in your own manmade way, thinking you have reached enlightenment. When in actuality you actually are drawing yourself closer to deception. No one, Republican, Democrat, Independent, Jo Schmo, or whoever is going to "change" the world. Only Jesus Christ will do that once he comes back to rule and reign., but keep into account that there is going to be a great apostacy (falling away), people are going to heed to destructive doctrines of demons, and will gather teachers around them to tell them what they want to hear because their ears itc, and want to get warm fuzzies all the time. Their faith is pure emotion, but is not tied to the Living and Active Word of God our Creator.
Ifeelfine, i tell you again, like I have said before. Repent, and turn from your unbelief, ask God to forgive you and ask Jesus Christ to be LORD and Savior in your life. I pray that by the power of God's Holy Spirit, you wil be convicted of your ignorance, and will turn from your unbelief into fellowship with your Creator God thru Jesus Christ, the Son of God who was crucified, died, and was resurrected from the dead on the third day and now sits at the right hand of the Father God.
John 14:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 Timothy 4:1
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 (in Context) 1 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (in Context) 2 Timothy 4 (Whole Chapter)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
2 Peter 2:1
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter
Sin is sin be it sexual, murder, drunkenness...God's Word teaches to repent and turn from it. The Word teaches the church is to take care of those within it's assembly who have need: orphans, widows and saints. Individual believers are to be the witness, hope and help to lost individuals outside of the church. Yeshua did not instruct the sinners he confronted to come to the synagogue in order to become saved, he ministered among the people, when in the synagogue he was teaching. As harvesters of His fields, believers can't continue to sit in the synagogues waiting for them to come in looking for salvation and hope. I've never known an ear of corn to leave its stalk, find its way to the barn, someone had to go and harvest it. Sitting in pews week after week will not bring in the harvest.
Prophet - Clearly many Christians think the Word of God does change. Notice how many folks have had a two-track mind here? Gay marriage, abortion, gay marriage, abortion. Neither of those things is mentioned in the Bible. What is mentioned in the Bible - more than 1000 times I might add - is how we are to treat the poor and least amongst us. Neither party gets it right - the death penalty, abortion, the treatment of the poor, etc - both sides have their pluses and minuses. It's appalling that all some so called "Christians" on this site can focus on are two issues. Get a clue folks!
mike,
You didn't list jesters in there. So, am I good to go then?
to pastor leo
everybody has a 'plank' in their eye - me, you, democrat, republican, independent, male female, whites, black, asians, europeans, middle eastern. if not, it is called perfection, holy & sinless.
agentorange said "Ugggh".
I'd have to say that is the most intelligent thing to come from his posts yet.
Mccain: A liberal in conservative clothing.
“The liberals not only try to boot God out of government”
Have you not read the constitution dealing with the separation of church and state? Have you read up on history of all the theocracies that were horrors of despotism precisely b/c of mixing religion with govt.
“they want to make the state into a god, providing for everyone’s needs and wants”
No they don’t, they want our representative govt. to supply the needs the populace wants. If they want the govt to provide a service, ie provide social systems for education, healthcare, fire and police departments, public libraries and museums etc.
”However, government is a social institution established and granted authority by God.”
Ugggh. No it’s not, the populace erects a govt. to represent them, but not all forms of govt are formed directly by the populace, in some places they have authoritative rule by fiat directed by a dictator.
Would you call such a dictator govt. ordained and granted authority by god? Of course not.
“It is God’s servant to punish evil (see Rom 13).”
If you’re going to quote the bible for what we should punish, you better look up the OT for all the stuff we should start punishing left and right.
dean77,
“The government is not supposed to care for the poor, the Church is. People are not supposed to depend on the government to help them, they are supposed to depend on God.”
The govt is represented by our needs, and us which is exactly what representative govt. means. Your whole rhetoric smacks of the era prior to the New Deal and it’s horrid.
If we elect people that share our views (that govt should provide welfare, and safety nets for the least among us, you know the stuff Christians should be about) then laws get passed to uphold the measures and taxes are appropriated for them. This is why govt. should pass law to aid with the least among us. Instead, we have the highest poverty rate among all industrialized countries.
If you want to give to donations that provide aid good, but if you also believe that collectively as a society it’s our job, our duty to take care of those that are least among us and provide the means for them to live (as jesus would have liked) than you vote for.
dean77-
“The government is not supposed to care for the poor, the Church is. People are not supposed to depend on the government to help them, they are supposed to depend on God.”
This is an excellent point. The liberals not only try to boot God out of government, they want to make the state into a god, providing for everyone’s needs and wants. However, government is a social institution established and granted authority by God. It is God’s servant to punish evil (see Rom 13). The government violates God-ordained boundaries when it tries to control other social institutions established by God such as the family and the Church.
Uh, I think it's the militant Muslims that are pro-war. Did you get confused some where along the way? Do you not remember 9/11? Or the fact that they tried to bomb the twin towers ten years earlier. So, if we ignore Muslim terrorists, they'll just go away? Duh, I don't think so!
The Democratic party is liberal and ungodly. The government is not supposed to care for the poor, the Church is. People are not supposed to depend on the government to help them, they are supposed to depend on God. If people become truly needy it is an opportunity for the Church to reveal God's goodness and salvation. Besides the fact that Demoncrats are all pro-abortion, gay marriage and anti-family. I am amazed at the ignorance of the people that call themselves "Christians".
mcmbc and mikehow
I just pointed out two of the Democrats "PLANK" issues. I apologize for not getting your point of view on the matter first. You seem to have a grasp on all of the other issues that are out of the will of God. By the way what job do you have and what are you doing about these issues?
I am simply saying that I don't believe their surveys or polls because they don't know who they are talking to. Christians don't support abortion or same sex marriages. I didn't say that people who say that they are Christians, but Christians.
It is none of my business who is a Christian or who anyone votes for, that is why I closed with Matthew 7:21-23. God will sort us all out when we are all judged.
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
mcfbc-
I think the murder of 45 million unborn babies would qualify as something God cares about greatly. These are human persons made in God's image. You gloss over it like it's insignificant.
Pastor Leo,
I will vote what the Bible tells me to do. But it will not be by your narrow interpretation. I think God cares about a lot more than two issues. What about the ungodly war in Iraq? What about torture? What about poverty issues both in this country and abroad? What about gangs, drugs, and education. If you look at the Old Testament, nations were judged more on the way they treated their poor than just about anything else.
to pastor leo
you should get a job & stop using god to enrich yourself. in 2004 election, many pastors & tele evangelist used that 'use your conscience' platform. look what happened to this great country run by men who lust for power, greedy, lovers of money & does not respect the constitution. they used the abortion, same sex marriage, issues to get votes. what about other issues other than abortion, same sex marriage like greed, power, love of money. what about a war that murder innocent men, women & children covered by lies, deceit & greed.what about men of greed & power that they are not accountable to no one. those issues are also written in the bible. what is your solution, tell us not to judge these people or pray for them while thousands of people suffer here & outside this country. you should get a job so you can understand the day to day issues of those who are struggling. to me you have a sin of commission bec. you have closed your eyes to these other issues.
what does the bible say about men (& pharisees) who are lovers of money, or about using god for profit?
Born-again Christians? Really?
The Constitution, like people, change constantly with the whims of the majority. The Constitution is moldable. It can, has, is, and will be changed, depending on the morals of the majority. That is it's problem. Yes, the Constitution has done a lot of good, and is not bad in itself. But the fact that it is changable, shows it's errancy. And to think that it is "changing into something more perfect" is ludicrous. All it's become is a piece of paper being thrown around in the wind of moral (or immoral) interpretation.
The Word of God does not change...for anyone or anything. And that is why people despise it so.
Born Again Christians???
First they like Carter...then they like Reagan...then they like Bush Senior...then they like Clinton...then they like G.W. Bush...then they like Hillary...then they like Obama...then they like Freedom...then they like Slavery!!!
These folks need to understand their Constitution and form of government. Vote RON PAUL, THE ONLY TRUE CONSERVATIVE!!!!
I always wonder about those polls that tell us what Christians are going to do. Let’s see, there are those who say that they are Christians that murder, get drunk (regularly), divorce, murder their babies (you know they call it abortion), rape, lie, cheat, steal, hate, are racist, commit incest, commit adultery, fornicate, shack-up, abuse women and children, in homosexual relationships, never read the entire New Testament, etc., etc., etc. So, why would Christians voting for Democrats be a surprise? By the way, what does being a Democrat have to do with it?
Christians, like every other voting U. S. citizen, will vote for whomever they choose. I suppose in a perfect world they would vote for the least objectionable candidate from their Christian point of view. If someone professes being a Christian, then voting for anyone that STOOD for same sex marriage and murdering babies would NOT have a chance of getting their vote. However, today, Christians are defining themselves by their personal beliefs and NOT by the Word of God or the Bible for you non-believers.
Since the Democratic Party’s Platform has same sex marriage and murdering babies as Planks, then I could NEVER vote for any one of their candidates, unless that particular candidate refuses to support those Party Planks. Not every Democrat supports those Planks. Likewise, some Republicans support those Planks and I would NEVER vote for them either. Of course, that’s just me.
We are voting for the person to serve as the President of the United States and NOT the PASTOR of the United States. The winner better know what they stand for because they will be criticized, ostracized, and ridiculed for every right decision they make. God help them for the wrong decisions.
I pray that everyone will first and foremost, vote their conscience. As SIN is legalized and religious freedom is diminished it will all come back to our vote. Yes, our vote, for city council, mayor, state and federal congressional and senatorial offices, governor, and finally for the President of the United States. The JUDGES they appoint and how much power THEY will have is in our hands before the elections. One day we may find ourselves standing before THEM as they judge us and our beliefs.
For my Christian brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus: “21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I NEVER KNEW YOU, depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!” (Matthew 7:21-23)
Christians will do what Jesus teaches us to do in the Bible. What will you do?
Pastor Leo Bogee
World Christian Leadership & Training Ministries
( www.wclandtm.com )
ofmimm -
While protection of life and marriage is important, I have to say that the right to educate our children ( I'm assuming you are referring to home schooling) falls somewhere lower on my list. Things that concern me much more right now are where a candidate stands about things like torture, and supporting Israel (and no I don't mean encouraging carving it up).
I'm not sure at all if I will be voting this time. I'm having a really hard time with the idea of voting for someone that I don't believe is acting in a Biblically Christian manner. Especially if the reason I'm voting for him is because he's a Christian, and I believe he'll uphold those principles. I'm afraid that our current President has been a big disappointment to me in that regard. At this point the only one I would really consider voting for is Mike Huckabee.
Other matters may be relevant, but a present-day Christian citizen should never place issues of lesser importance at the same level of “the three non-negotiables”:
Among these the following emerge clearly today:
[FIRST NON-NEGOTIABLE]
- protection of life in all its stages, from the first moment of conception until natural death;
[SECOND NON-NEGOTIABLE]
- recognition and promotion of the natural structure of the family - as a union between a man and a woman based on marriage - and its defense from attempts to make it juridically equivalent to radically different forms of union which in reality harm it and contribute to its destabilization, obscuring its particular character and its irreplaceable social role;
[THIRD NON-NEGOTIABLE]
- the protection of the right of parents to educate their children.
These principles are not truths of faith, even though they receive further light and confirmation from faith; they are inscribed in human nature itself and therefore they are common to all humanity.
Prophet:
OK, That clears things up. I really do believe that a couple of exceptions to that observation were Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. Jimmy Carter was just a totally ineffective president and politically, he is still ineffective to this day but I believe he lived his faith in office.
Unfortunately, Rudy would have been the best choice but he forgot what party he was in. It worked OK in a liberal city like NY but the Republican party is conservative still and will not tolerate a candidate who supports abortion and the homosexual agenda. Apparantly Rudy was not smart enough to know that. He probably would have been unbeatable in the Democratic party because he has all the talents, skills and experience to be the country's CEO which none of the Democratic candidates have. Morally, he is not the candidate for the Republican party. McCain is a weak candidate but will probably be the nominee.
By the way Prophet, I never refer to homosexuals as gay because I really don't believe they are gay in the true definition of the word they hijacked - happy, cheerful. They have nothing to be cheerful about. Lesbian life spans average 10 years less than normal and male homosexuals average 25 years less. Does that sound like fun to you?
I'm sorry for not being clear. My phrase "I have yet to see a man who has professed a faith in God, retain that faith once he enters the office." was misleading. I guess I should clarify it. What I meant (and should have written) was "I have yet to see a man who has professed a faith in God, retain that faith once he enters the office of the Presidency." I'm sorry for the confusion.
And though I agree with you assesment of the particular political parties, it still will not keep me from voting what God directs me too. Although, I have never voted democrat in the past (though I have been seriously tempted to), I have voted independent.
And it seems that Rudy G. was a hiccup in the "rules" of political parties...being a Rep, but promoting the gay agenda and abortion. But, as we see, he is no longer running.
To Prophet and RBB:
It really is a no brainer. You need only look at the platforms of the two parties in question. It is like night and day. I was once a Democrat until the party left me behind when they left God out of their agenda. How people who vote for these people can't see that is beyond comprehension. Is the Republican party perfect and is every Republican politician a good Christian? No on both accounts but I never said so. That being said, it is the platform which shapes the party. Simply stated: Those who vote for the policies of the Democratic party vote against God. To deny that is like walking around with blinders on.
Prophet, I don't know what kind of office you work in but I have seen many a person who professes a faith in God who kept that faith when he walked into the office. What kind of company do you keep - liberals or just plain hypocrits?
Amen Prophet! All we can do is pray about our vote, and go with the candidate that most closely follows what scripture teaches.
The problem here is not political...it's moral. God is neither Rep or Dem. He is God. And just because the Rep party tends to lean towards the conservative side, does not make it right. Being a Rep doesn't make you a Christian, and being a Christian doesn't make you a Rep. I have yet to see a man who has professed a faith in God, retain that faith once he enters the office.
I don't vote a particular party. I vote my conscience...whether Rep, Dem, or Ind. I wish people would quit using God to promote their political views. Quit using God, period! He is not a God to be used! He calls the shots, not us. We cannot control Him, nor tell Him what He can and can't do. To do so puts you in grave judgement. That is idolatry. You make yourself to be a god above Him when you do. And He has a unique way of bringing you back down to reality.
To Citsonga:
You are correct on most of what you say. However Bush is president, not king. Please don't leave out the Congress in it's complicity to raise the national debt. Afterall just look at the Democratic Party's history of increasing the spending year in and year out. And, the last Democratic President to get it right about cutting taxes to stimulate the economy was JFK. Raising taxes never, I repeat never, stimulated the economy and has always done just the opposite. Pick up an economics book some day and check it out. It really is simple. Makes you think that people who raise taxes instead of cutting them just can't read.
To JS I forgot something, nobody sends anybody to hell but that person himself. Not even God sends people to hell. You and only you send yourself to hell. Afterall, you have free will. If you want to support a party which is truly anti God, that is your constitutional as well as God given right.
As Christ stated in Matthew 13:22 "The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. Any so-called "born again Christian" who puts such faith in any worldly political ideology including, but not limited to, the Godless platforms of the current democratic candidates, should as Paul instructs us in 2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves..."
In good conscience can you really consider yourself a Christian while you deny Christ and his authoritative word as found in the Holy Bible. You must first get off of the fence and stand on one side or the other.
As Christ himself was quoted in Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
In truth, neither the republicans nor the democrats have all of the answers. Both are well capable of pointing out the problems of world, but neither have the solution without Christ.
We each have but one eternally defining decision to make. Do we surrender ourselves and submit to the kingship of Christ, or continue to deny and rebel until our day of definite destruction?
http://www.ravenbrook.org/survivormovie.htm
mikehow--
Of course the Republican Party is full of sinful people. We are all sinners. The Republicans are not perfect either. But the Republicans don't enshrine support for two grave and dreadful sins, abortion and homosexuality, as part of their party platform. That's a big difference and I'm sorry if you can't see that. The Republicans have a lot of work to do, and much to fix, but they don't support evil in their platform. They are also the only party that stands up the great evil of Islamofascism that is spreading across the globe and challenging the church of God.
JohnnyJJ--
That is a sad statistic about Catholics, isn't it? 50% support a party that treats abortion as a sacrament. Isaiah said, "Woe to those that call good evil and evil good". Since the Catholic Church is staunchly pro-life, I can't imagine how those "good Catholics" rationalize voting for the party where infanticide is part of their official platform.
Citsonga,
“Cut spending, Not really, bush and his republs have about doubled national debt in last 7 years”
Seriously. Our national debt prior to him getting into office was barely over 4 trillion, now 7 years later its over 9.25 trillion and will be 10 trillion by the time he’s done. Our national debt ceiling has been raised how many times now? And this is $$$ we have to pay back, plus interest. If you want to know WHY our taxes have to go up it’s b/c Bush’s horrid economic policies of cutting taxes while in a war and bloated pork barrel projects that he rubber stamps, meanwhile when it came to something REALLY important like national healthcare for kids he vetos that. Go figure.
www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
http://zfacts.com/p/461.html
That's OUR debt people that WE must all pay back for us and our future generations sake.
TO JOHNNYJJ:Thus, anyone who calls themself a Christian but votes Democrat is a hypocrit and a fool. If you are a Democrat, fine, but don't for a minute believe that you are a Christian"
IT IS PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT SEND MORE PEOPLE TO HELL AND OUT OF THE CHURCH THAN ANY DEMOCRAT COULD EVER DO!
I believe the poll. I am a Catholic and every election I see that an average of 50% of Catholics vote Democrat. This means that 50% of the people who call themselves Catholic are not Catholic, and in fact, not even Christian. Look at the Democratic Party platform. They are the supporters and promoters of abortion (killing of the unborn and murder in God's eyes), they are the supporters and promoters of the homosexual agenda (God destroyed 2 cities because of their homosexuality); they are the supporters and promoters of euthanasia; they are the supporters and promoters of the radical feminist agenda. In short the Democratic party is for what God is against and against what God is for. Thus, anyone who calls themself a Christian but votes Democrat is a hypocrit and a fool. If you are a Democrat, fine, but don't for a minute believe that you are a Christian. God will hold us all accountable for many things, including who we select as our leaders. This may be hard to swallow but don't for a minute believe that it is not true, for afterall, it is your eternity which is at stake.
to pavilion - the republican party of god, always sinless, holy & perfect. yet, for the past years the GOP has cast the first stone yet it has sins of its own. arrogant, greed, lovers of money & also as decadent as the party they are condemning.
I wonder what would you say if christ condemn, oppose & rebuke the war in iraq. would you call him a leftist, communist, islamofacists like those who oppose & question the GOP? Typical the mess of this nation has been result of a president that was perceived as 'christian'. gays, homosexual & marriage has become a political instrument to get votes for this president. but greed, arrogance, love of money & power, false witness against thy neighbor are also addressed in the bible but the fundamentalist & conservative right are blinded by the profession of this president who does not practice what the preaches.
to prophet - the conservative right has made a decision to support & vote for this president but blames everybody but itself.
John,
I agree with you. God has abandoned America as a whole (but not the remnant of His Children who are faithful). We are eating the fruits of our labor, and we don't like it. And we blame God for it. That's sad. But,then again, it has to happen. Nations and governments must fall in order to make way for the anti-christ.
It will take a strong, unified,Christian army to defeat the infanticiding,socialist,Islamoblind democratic machine that is at our door.I pray for God grant us mercy :for the lesser of the two evils to come into power.
Rocky2--
I listened to a podcast by John MacArthur on the Focus on the Family broadcast that was called, "A Nation Abandoned By God". It was deeply sobering and more than a little frightening. MacArthur isn't some wild eyed end times dispensationalist, either. And MacArthur said flat out that he believes America has been abandoned by God and he listed his reasons why. Like I said, quite sobering. And I have to agree, I think God has abandoned us as a nation. We have turned away from him, we have supported things like abortion and the promotion of homosexuality within our entertainment culture - elevating it as right and good. We have become utterly material and selfish, self-absorbed and as a result we have seen monstrous changes in our society in the last forty years.
I think we are getting the candidates we deserve. I don't think God will raise such a leader up for us until we, as a nation, turn away from our sins. But I don't see that happening in America. As a result, we may see what Isaiah said, come to pass,
Isaiah 3:12
"As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”
I do not buy this poll for one minute. There is no way most "evangelicals" support the Democrat Party. The Democrat Party has "enshrined" abortion in their platform and treats abortion as a virtual secular sacrament. They support homosexual unions and marriage and also support elevating homosexuality to the same civil rights status as skin color.
There is no way 40% of evangelicals of any age group support the Democrat Party. I believe that the people doing this poll were snookered.
CANADIANCHRISTIAN is totally correct. Any true Christian according to biblical definitions cannot support any candidate who supports abortion and/or a gay lifestyle. Both of these are sins against God, the Bible and humans. Those who claim that war is killing do not understand the biblical concept of "just war" which God commanded in His Word. Israel was to fight against their enemies who were against Him. We are to support any and all assaults upon His Chosen People the Jews (Israel) when He says "I will bless those who bless you and will curse those who curse you." Therefore, any nation or individual or group of individuals who are not for Israel are against God. I pray that God will raise up a Godly leader for our nation which cannot be Clinton, Obama, Romney or McCain. A new leader must emerge who is truly God-loving!
Shalom Adonai!
unfortunately the results don't surprise me. the bible makes reference that in the last days good shall be called evil and evil shall be called good. I think this is exactly what is happening. don't get me wrong, I think politics are durty regardless of the party, I just think that the republican party is the lesser of two evils. it is the most conservative and therefore closer to biblically sensative conservative issues. that is why ever since I became a naturalized citizen and registered to vote I registered republican.
don't know too much about prophecy but it seems the USA is not heading in the right direction. I just hope we never stop supporting Israel.
someone forwarded me a video that really gave me the hibbi jibbies, I thought I'd share the link with you just in case you guys are not aware this video really puts into perspective the fact that the second coming is around the corner from a secular point of view.
its time to make our election sure in regards to the God's kingdom that is the election I most concerned about.
this is the link to the video;
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173&q=America%3A+Freedom+to+Fascism+-+Director%27&total=45&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Shaalu Shalom Yerushalaym = pray for the peace of Jerusalem
Shalom Adonai = G_d's peace
Some of the theological vocabularies are confusing and being used it in the wrong application.
Born-again became a household word around the world after President Jimmy Carter made
the statement before the election, but he was surrounded with less born again people of any
administration. Fundamental-charismatic-evangelical-conservative-liberal- orthodox-etc etc are
popular Christian terminologies but the average person is totally confused about them all.
Thirty seven years back, I came to study in a very conservative theolical seminary, may be
98% of them were of Republican party followers. My experience there was not comforting,
I felt that they lost touch with reality. But, outside the institution, I met some strong Republicans and they were the warmest people I have ever seen. I met a few Democratic people, and
they were the warmest people like the Republicans I have met.
By putting the title " I am born-again" never makes much sense to me, if that person is not bearing the fruits of that title. If I see a needy person and never show compassion to that
person and walk away from my spiritual and social responsibilites, I am still a carnal minded
person. Anybody who says that he or she is born-again, let them have the heart and
eyes of Jesus Christ. More Democratic party members might be concerned with the needs of
the poor and underprivileged, but to make a broad classification of born-again people based
on their political party affiliation might not be a precise conclusion. There are a lot of good
people in all political parties. However the norm of the society is, the rich and conservative,
anti-abortion people are Republicans; on the other hand, the middle class, poor and most of the
alien residents are Democratcs.
fruits of the " born again experience". If a man be in Christ, he is a new creature. If a
RBB,
So true. So many claim to be Christian, but so few are. I could claim to be CIA because I've watched all the cool spy movies. I know how it goes down. But, sadly, that's how most "Christians" think when it comes to their religion. Just because they've gone to a few Easter or Christmas services, or seen an evangelist on TV a few times, or even have a friend or relative that's a Christian, they think that qualifies them. Geez, there's people who have been faithfully attending church for years, or even decades...and Jesus says to them "depart from me, I do not know you."
Jesus said that people will know His followers by their fruit. And if someone gets "saved", and keeps living the same life he/she did before...that's a good indication that they aren't saved. They have no fruit...either that or it's rotten fruit.
I listen to what a man does...not what he says.
xizwyck:
"I tend to vote that way because Republicans tend to hold conservative values (pro-life, govern your own business, cut taxes, cut spending,"
pro-life, Not really- didn't republican bush and his republican buddies invade Iraq and kill thousands of people and destroy the country.
govern your own business, Not really- always trying to tell us what we cant do which they find offensive
Cut spending, Not really, bush and his republs have about doubled national debt in last 7 years
No matter how you slice it, or define the terms, this is truly a stunning poll! Given the fact that if a Democrat is elected, the most important long-term effect would be appointments to the federal bench, including the Supreme Court.
Given that, I just can't believe the results. I mean, do you think the pig-woman (Coulter) was really serious when she said she would vote for Hillary if McCain was the nominee? Of course not! And I think when push-comes-to-shove, neither will the subjects of this poll.
Although I must admit it, I would really love for it to be true!
It would appear that the problem with this study is in the definitions of "born again" vs "evangelical". By the criteria they are using for born again, just about anyone who believes they are going to heaven (and don't most people), and believe the Jesus existed, qualify. That would fit most liberal Christians. That they are voting Democrat is no surprise. The response of the evangelicals isn't much of surprise either. Neither is the fact that it's so different from those the survey regards as born again.
I think the folks at Barna have been spoofed.
"Born again Christians are defined as people who said they have a personal commitment to Jesus Christ and who believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior."
Too inaccurate, broad, and shallow!
See http://withChrist.org/MJS/newbirth.htm
The enshrining of pro-abortion Democratic or Republican politicians into political office will only further the radical pro-abortion death sentences of unborn lives. How God will judge the American Church for her failure to speak out for biblical values! What a shame when the Church actively supports political leaders who have no fear of supporting evill!
I would hope and pray that my cousins to the south regardless of denomination and political affilliation would vote according to the Holy Word of GOD,and not endorse unbiblical candidates regardless of that candidates party.Any christian who votes for a candidate supporting same sex marriage(abomination),or abortion (murder) is a christian in name only.
JHS has got to be joking! Republicans are greedy? Perhaps, but the Democrats use the poor platform for their own gain and you don't think they're greedy??? HA! I don't know who they surveyed or what definition of born again Christian they're using, but the Democrats are about a corrupt as they come. Most are catholic, but espouse nothing the catholics hold to like pro-life and banning gay marriages. Hello, this nation is truly going to pot!
Although I'm not a card-carrying Republican, I tend to vote that way because Republicans tend to hold conservative values (pro-life, govern your own business, cut taxes, cut spending, etc)... of course, not every Republican actually represents those sides of the issues... but to say that the GOP is greedy is implying that the Democrats are not??? Democrats historically support higher taxes... and they don't go to benefit me or my family as I don't qualify for welfare, foodstamps, free medical care nor do I suppose or would ever have an abortion. On top of that, I pay for my boys schooling twice. Once for the public school taxes, second for their homeschooling - yeah, I know it's my choice but I don't want them exposed to the violence, sexual harassment, evolution theories, anti-Christian indoctrination, etc - go figure. So where is the money going? Now who's the greedy ones? BTW, I'm not advocating that we shouldn't care for our fellowman, but donating money out of the goodness of your heart is much more valuable then having it taken from your paycheck. Plus you can give to what you actually support.
This should surprise no one, I am an evangelical and there is no way I will vote republican, the GOP now stands for the Greedy Ol Party.