When the top brass of the Anglican Communion convene for their decennial Lambeth Conference in Canterbury England next month, the elephant in the room will be The Episcopal Church of the USA (TEC).
The Lambeth Conference is a convening of archbishops and bishops who meet for worship, study and conversation every ten years at the invitation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the symbolic head of the Anglican Church. The communion has been roiled of late by the TEC’s ordination of the openly homosexual, non-celibate bishop, Gene Robinson of the Diocese of New Hampshire and by the affirmation of same sex unions by a number of dioceses.
Many were hopeful that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, would signal his firm opposition to the TEC’s embrace of homosexual behavior by declining to invite the church’s bishops to the conference. No such luck. Only Robinson got the cold shoulder, but even that small slight was offset by the Archbishop’s refusal to invite Martyn Minns, newly appointed bishop of the Convocation of Anglicans of North America, a group that splintered off from the TEC in protest of the American church’s drift toward heresy. Minns’ status with the Anglican Communion is deemed “impaired” by Williams because of certain “canonical technicalities” associated with his ordination, but many feel that he was shut out from the meeting because of his refusal to go along to get along.
Hopes that the conference will speak in a definitive way to the rogue actions of the TEC are growing dim. The chance that the conference will expel the TEC with the goal of causing it to repent is low. The likelihood that there will be endless discussions accompanied by much furrowing of brows and gnashing of teeth with no decisive action is high. Williams has shown himself to be anything but decisive, and he speaks in obtuse terms about the issue that is causing so much angst within the Communion.
But if Williams lacks clarity in his statements on the issue of homosexuality in the church, the same cannot be said of Scripture. Homosexual practices are strongly condemned in the Old Testament: “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” (Leviticus 18:22 NIV) The New Testament is equally clear: “Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV; see also, Romans 1:26-27 and 1 Timothy 1:10)
Pooh-bahs in The Episcopal Church resort to all kinds of gymnastics to justify their endorsement of the gay lifestyle: the prohibitions against homosexuality are culturally bound and don’t apply to today; the translation into English from the original language of Scripture is not a faithful application of the meaning; Christ’s teachings of love and forgiveness and his acceptance of sinners negates the prohibitions set forth in the texts; etc., etc. etc. The real problem, however, is not one of interpretation. It is one of authority. Leaders in The Episcopal Church who give their blessing and approval to the homosexual lifestyle simply refuse to submit to the authority of Scripture. But, rather than owning up to their rebellion against that authority, they invent all kinds of excuses to justify their actions. Continue >>
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hlerwin,
"To make an almost ridiculous comparison, what if you were a Rotarian and I was a Kiwanian(sp?). Would it make sense for me, a member of Kiwanis, to observe the rules of the Rotary Club book? No, I think."
I don't care what they do, as long as it does not affect me. But I would expect them to follow the rules of their own club.
" You and I think the Bible is God's word. (But I don't think so to the degree you do, I assume.) Other people do NOT have to live by OUR religion's scripture. Why is this point so hard to get across?"
You seem to think I believe people should live by my beliefs. I dont. I'd like them to, but I dont think most of them will and I am OK with that.
People outside the church are free to influence society as they feel fit. People inside the church are free to influence society as they feel fit. But when people inside the church try to influence the church into heresy, we have the responsibility to stop it and teach the truth.
We each have the responsibility to name bad things as bad things. We each have to responsibility to influence society for the better, as we understand the word of God dictates. We have the responsibility to pray for our country, its leaders, and its inhabitants. and the same is true for the world. We have the responsibility to share what God has done through Christ, so people might believe.
Everyone is free to disagree with us. They are free to disagree with God. Sometimes it pains me when they do.
For wbmoore: To make an almost ridiculous comparison, what if you were a Rotarian and I was a Kiwanian(sp?). Would it make sense for me, a member of Kiwanis, to observe the rules of the Rotary Club book? No, I think. You and I think the Bible is God's word. (But I don't think so to the degree you do, I assume.) Other people do NOT have to live by OUR religion's scripture. Why is this point so hard to get across?
"same diatribe from feet as always. Ignores the scripture that teach exactly what he says it does not teach. Warps other scripture to meet his goal."
Amen! feet continually uses the phrase "spirit witness" which is merely code for whatever he believes to be true. To heck with the scripture's definition of sin. Good grief, I know of a number of agnostics who clearly admit that the NT condemns homosexual acts; it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out (and I even happen to be a former rocket scientist). But for feet's sake, I testify that the Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that homosexual behavior is gravely immoral and a depraved act. Therefore, repent and believe in the gospel.
to read more on what the BIble says about sexual immorality, oyu can read my fuller explanation here:
http://wbmoore.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/what-did-christ-say-about-immoral-sex-2/
What did Christ say about immoral sex?
Christ spoke out against sexual immorality. But to what was He referring?
Matthew 15:18-20
18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "
Mark 7:20-23
20 He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
Now, sexual immorality would refer to what God had defined as wrong already by the time of when Christ said this â
same diatribe from feet as always. Ignores the scripture that teachexactly what he says it does not teach. Warps other scripture to meet his goal.
hlerwin,
I would have to do further research than I have time for at the moment. But I can address some points dealing with elder.
The original idea was that the elders were thought to be wiser than the younger 'non-grey-bearded' folks. And as such, they were more able to make better leadership decisions.
Another word for elder is 'sar', used in Exodus 18:21, where Moses' father-in-law suggest he choose leaders to judge the people.
In the New Testament, we are given instructions on the qualifiations for leadership, as well as behavior for leaders. See Mt 20:24-28, Mt 23:11, Lk 22:26, Jn 13:1-17, 35, Lk 19:17, Eph 4:11-13, Titus 1:40-10, 1 Peter 5:1-10.
But the basic idea is that someone who should be trustworthy and know the Word of God and be able to defend it. One becomes trustworthy by being tested by being given a little responsibilty, and as you grow in your knowledge and ability, you are give more responsiblity.
Too often people look to church leadership as a position of power and/or money. But God was quite clear on this. In all cases, a leader should be a servant - it is a position of responsibilty, not power, nor lucrative gain.
Also, too often people get into leadership before they are ready and fail/fall. We do churches and individuals a disservice by not having a way to help someone grow in spiritual maturity and the exercise of their spiritual gifts.
that is amazing nothing about christ and his authority........that he was brought to earth so we could live thru him.
that is amazing nothing about christ and his authority........that he was brought to earth so we could live thru him.
feetxxxl:
Go ahead. Do as you will.
If you can't stand to follow God's will here on Earth, it would be absolute torture to expect you to do it for eternity in Heaven.
But please STOP trying to mislead others about the Truth.
i would some day love to be able to confront ken connor in a place where wasnt to able postualte a position then scurry to places of unapproachability and unavailability
no one who is antihomosexual ever includes christ, the spirit of christ, the holy spirit and the fruit of the spirit in their believing homosexuality is a sin.
ken is standing on regulations of the old covenant, as if there is no romans, no 1john, no hebrews, no gospel. as if all the regulations of the old covenant apply to the new. he accuses liberals of technicalities, does that mean he does not have his own about differences between ritual and moral regulations.
he has never explained his position on homosexuality, thru romans( romans 1 and including the rest of romans)
where is his explanation as to how that scripture says homosexuality is a sin.
i may missed something bu t i have never heard mr. connor give explanation of why homoisexuality is a sin thru the spirit of christ whom god has put in authority over all things.
surely having done so, god does not turn around and work apart from christ. according to god's own words in delegating authority to christ, now in the time of the new covenant whatever god does he will do thru his son.
and his son said we will recognize them from their fruit. from the fruit of homosexual bonding.............the fruit of love, goodness, gentleness, self control, faithfulness, kindness,joy, peace, and patience. from the fruit of having a homosexual identity.
i have heard no testament that their is more fruit of the spirit in hetersexual bonding and identity than in heterosexual bonding and identity.
sin is a sin, ..................no.............. that is the old covenant relationship to the written code. under the new all judgement of sin requires in, addition a spirit witness,(romans: we are led and serve of the spirit) if our judgement is without this witness, then how are we being led by the spirit.
for those who lament that there is no regulation affirming same sex bonding, my response is either become more familiar with the books i mentioned or show me where in scripture under the new covenant we are to be led by regulation or regulation apart from spirit
oooo!! thats irritating that text jumping around on the right! oya that gay thing too, i think its obvious that unrepentive sinners dont belong in our pews, Scripture says so. But who reads that anymore when we can so easily just give in to what others want!! I mean why bother taking the time to understand God's Holy Word and seeking his will on all things when we can just give in and invite them over for a Bar-B-Q !!! Live and Let Live, its just the easy road baby!! or so they think......... Its much harder when your nation is falling apart and jobs and opportunities start to leave because of corruption and crime. When people dont care on the quality of the work they do and only care about more money and more toys and more anything as long as they get what they want. Thats the spirit of the flesh, anything goes as long as you get what you want. Its the hard way when your children have to wear bullet proof vests at school and road rage and drunking drivers are on our roads, its the hard way when politicians are interested only in money fame and power. When our prisons are filling up faster than ever, when drugs murder rape porn and molestation are prevalent everywhere, its the Hard way to compromise. BETTER FIGHT TO BE FREE THEN ENSLAVED BY SIN.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
I hope something good and sound will come out of the Lambeth Conference. We will just have to see.
wbmoore: I found this by John MacArthur in Answering Questions about Elders.
The word elder is of Old Testament Hebrew origin. The primary word for elder, zaqen, was used, for example, in Numbers 11:16 and Deuteronomy 27:1, of the seventy tribal leaders who assisted Moses. There it refers to a special category of men who were set apart for leadership--much like a senate--in Israel. Deuteronomy 1:9-18 indicates that these men were charged with the responsibility of judging the people. Moses communicated through them to the people (Exodus 19:7; Deuteronomy 31:9). They led the Passover (Exodus 12:21) and perhaps other elements of worship.
Later, the elders of Israel were specifically involved in the leadership of cities (1 Samuel 11:3; 16:4; and 30:26). Still, their function was decision making--applying wisdom to the lives of the people in resolving conflicts, giving direction, and generally overseeing the details of an orderly society.
The Old Testament refers to them as "elders of Israel" (1 Samuel 4:3); "elders of the land" (1 Kings 20:7); "elders of Judah" (2 Kings 23:1); "elders...of each city" (Ezra 10:14); and "elders of the congregation" (Judges 21:16). They served in the capacity of local magistrates, and as governors over the tribes (Deuteronomy 16:18; 19:12; 31:28).
Another Hebrew word for elder is sab, used only five times in the Old Testament, all in the book of Ezra. There it refers to the group of Jewish leaders in charge of rebuilding the Temple after the Exile.
The Greek word for elder, presbuteros, is used about seventy times in the New Testament. Like zaqen, which means "aged," or "bearded"; sab, which means "gray-headed"; and our English word elder, presbuteros has reference to mature age. For example, in Acts 2:17, Peter quotes Joel 2:28: "And your old men shall dream dreams." The Hebrew word used for "old men" in Joel is zaqen, and the Greek word used in Acts is presbuteros. Used in that sense, elder does not constitute an official title; it simply means "an older man.
I'm glad to find you here, wbmoore. Did you have any information about "presbuteros," the comparative form of "old," coming from the idea "gray-bearded?" As far as this column's topic (as well as the marriage issue), it does seem that the discussion over homosexuality brings some of today's fiercest debates into great clarity. Of course, proponents from either (all?) sides are passionate about their beliefs, but I am still able to often see each side's heart-felt and well-thought-out positions. It's an issue for our day, isn't it?
Homosexuals are in many churches. That's not the issue. The issue is whether churches use Scripture as the basis for life and membership. The issue is whether churches allow people in active sin to be members.
It's true, steveh20! And, really, who could have imagined that homosexuals were in the Anglican and Episcopal churches? I'm simply horrified! As far as Ken Connor's above article is concerned, maybe he should just get a new photo. Many of today's Christians are known for big smiles (simpering or toothy and, some anyway, actually honest). If this man is going to write such things about the Anglicans, he should snap a scowling shot of himself, just for publications like this one.
Homosexuals in the Anglican church!! Who would have thought it...I'm sure this is something that has only occured since the 1960's.
Steve
Using words like "top brass" and "pooh-bahs" only shows how disdainful this writer already was about the Episcopal Church. The top brass and the pooh-bahs will probably not read this article, nor should they or any of their membership. As my good friend said once when we were approached by a fundamentalist street preacher, "That's nice. I tell you what: you go to your church, and I'll go to my church. How about that?