Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Society|Thu, Jul. 09 2009 12:04 PM EDT

Massachusetts Sues U.S. Over DOMA

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

The federal Defense of Marriage Act which protects the traditional definition of marriage may be facing its biggest challenge yet. Massachusetts filed a lawsuit Wednesday against the federal law.

  • Massachusetts
    (Photo: AP / Eric J. Shelton)
    Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley speaks during a press conference in Boston Wednesday, June 24, 2009. Coakley, along with other Massachusetts legislative leaders, have reached an agreement on a final version of a bill to toughen state ethics standards.
  • Massachusetts
    (Photo: AP / Lisa Poole)
    Massachusetts State Attorney General Martha Coakley speaks to members of the media in Boston Wednesday, July 8, 2009 about a lawsuit filed Wednesday that says that the federal Defense of Marriage Act interferes with the right of Massachusetts to define marriage as it sees fit. Behind her is Assistant Attorney General Jonathan Miller, second from right, and Maura Healey, chief of Attorney General's Civil Rights Division, right.
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"We're taking this action today because, first, we believe that [DOMA] directly interferes with Massachusetts' long-standing sovereign authority to define and regulate the marital status of its residents," said Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley.

Massachusetts was the first state in the country in 2003 to legalize marriage for same-sex couples. It is now also the first state to challenge DOMA, the 1996 law that defines marriage as between one man and one woman for purposes of all federal laws, and provides that states need not recognize same-sex marriages from another state.

The lawsuit argues that despite same-sex marriage being legal in Massachusetts, the more than 16,000 gay and lesbian married couples in the state are still denied access to "critically important rights and benefits" because of DOMA.

The New England state is specifically challenging the constitutionality of Section 3 of DOMA, which defines marriage as "a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife."

"Congress's decision (in 1996) to enact a federal definition of marriage rejected the long-standing practice of deferring to each state’s definition of marriage and contravened the constitutional designation of exclusive authority to the states," states the lawsuit.

Congress overstepped its authority and undermined states' efforts to recognize marriages between same-sex couples, the state further argues.

Rejecting the argument that DOMA interferes with the state's authority, Family Research Council president Tony Perkins contended that DOMA was enacted with the "primary purpose of protecting the right of states to define marriage as they see fit so that no state can force marriage redefinition on another state."

"Now, the Massachusetts Attorney General is expanding the fight against traditional marriage by demanding that federal taxpayers from all 50 states subsidize same-sex 'marriage' benefits in Massachusetts," Perkins said in a statement Wednesday.

Two other lawsuits have been filed against the federal DOMA.

Last month, the U.S. Justice Department moved to dismiss one of the lawsuits filed by a married gay couple.

Charles Miller, a spokesman for the Justice Department, said they will review the latest case. At the same time, Miller also reiterated President Obama’s pledge to repeal DOMA.

Perkins of the conservative family group is calling on the Justice Department to "fulfill its constitutional duties and continue its defense of DOMA against such frivolous lawsuits."

"We also urge any federal courts that hear this case to dismiss it and preserve the right of the people to decide such important public policy decisions," he added.

According to a May 2009 Gallup Poll, most Americans (57 percent) remain opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage.

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  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Al,
    "Ignorance and Stupidity are inherent in fundamentalism and evangelicalism, all you need do is look at the definition of the words and apply it accordingly to their posts, responses and acts in the real world."

    You know what they say: everybody has an opinion, you, me, and the guy at the car wash.

    "It should make you happy to find a person who speaks fluent truth as I do."

    I'm amazed at your humility too.

    "To DP, thanks so much for the offer but completely unnecessary as I hold several degrees including a Juris Doctorate. That is the degree one must obtain in order to become an attorney."

    Is that a lawyer-ly way of saying you graduated but have yet to pass the bar? What type of law do you practice/specialize in?

    "Next, where did I resort to name calling?"
    Well, let's see. Here are a few from recent posts:

    "idiots (Harold Hill- Glen Beck) and Fools ( Ann "The Coultergeist" Coulter")"
    "the rest of the slime in Congress (read fundie Republicans)"
    "fundie fascists"
    "personal pulpit puppet"
    "silly wood pulp worshippers"

    Finally, I've asked you what the TFR means on your posts 2-3 times. In words you should recognize, "For once just answer the question as it is directed to you not anyone else."

    Have a nice day.

  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show wowie »Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:10 am : 0 : 0 Flag Al-Resorting to name calling, in my book, means you have lost the debate. You obviously have nothing more intelligent to say and aren't man/woman enough to back out politely so therefore resort to childish,abusive comments,as usual. ------------------------------------------------------------ In response: I posted 3 responses to your request. As to nothing to say, then why did you specifically ask me to comment on 3 count them 3 separate posts to read my opinion? Obviously you know it is my opinion is important or you wouldn't have asked. Next, where did I resort to name calling? Ignorance and Stupidity are inherent in fundamentalism and evangelicalism, all you need do is look at the definition of the words and apply it accordingly to their posts, responses and acts in the real world. So stating a fact is telling the truth and according to you and the rest of the fundies I have encountered why would you have a problem with the truth when it applies to you? It should make you happy to find a person who speaks fluent truth as I do. Your problem is you don't like the truth when you hear it as it makes you recognize the faults contained within your own belief system. Once you get past denial, then your recovery from the effects of your time under the control of that particular religious aberration will lessen over time and then you will be able to function as a normal thinking person outside the control and dominion of the evil overlords who rule the masses with an iron fist and sometimes get caught doing naughty things like Larry Craig did. Take care and have a wonderful day. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Reality and Truth in 1 Blog TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Al, On the thread A Christian Vision of Marriage and Family there are three posts for you, I'd like to know your thoughts on them? That is if you can keep to the subject matter without the abuse, thank you.

    1:28
    1:46
    7:24

  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:10 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Al-Resorting to name calling, in my book, means you have lost the debate. You obviously have nothing more intelligent to say and aren't man/woman enough to back out politely so therefore resort to childish,abusive comments,as usual.

  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show To DP, thanks so much for the offer but completely unnecessary as I hold several degrees including a Juris Doctorate. That is the degree one must obtain in order to become an attorney. So that you don't misunderstand again by virtue of that degree I am a qualified expert in the law. Now that that has been given please remember that when you speak on a subject regarding the law my commentary is the one that carries the most weight due to the doctorate status. Any other comments written by another who lacks the same degree relegates it to a layman's opinion and thereby it is reduced to having little if any efficacy on the topic or area of discussion. So the next time you choose to opine on a legal question remember that there are very qualified people here who can clean your clock so to speak not only with educational prowess, but experience from the real world that trumps any illogical and meaningless religious rhetoric that you offer in return. So please enlighten the rest of us with your educational experience so that others here may better understand your personal achievements, that is if they of course amount to anything beyond that lofty fundamentalist/evangelical aspiration of graduating Junior High School. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Ignorance and Stupidity will never want for examples so long as fundamentalist and evangelical christians exist! TFR hide

  • Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:30 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "It is apparent you also lack any formal training in the law as evidenced by your repeated foul ups with regard to coverage of law in your postings and that alone should give you the reason not to revisit this area and leave it to those of us who have the training, efficacy and knowledge to do so properly and without the taint of you clouded mind controlled ideology so prevalent in the banter you offer up."

    A Pot called, it said your black...

  • Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:28 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "When you make these misguided and unsupported allegations it only proves that you not only lack the ability to understand the English language, it goes even further to illustrate that you completely lack comprehension skills as well."

    Good conclusion to a loosing argument, you don't win, call people names...

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "DP, sad, huh?"

    Very much yep.... Having been in the news biz for a dozen years I can tell you that news casts would be MUCH shorter if they didn't report anything that occured as a result of sin. It is sin that makes the headlines. It is what "mankind" wants.

    So much for our "highly evolved state".

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "It is apparent you also lack any formal training in the law as evidenced by your repeated foul ups with regard to coverage of law in your postings and that alone should give you the reason not to revisit this area and leave it to those of us who have the training, "

    Wow!!! The reason we keep coming to different conclusions is that you eliminate religion from society. The gay community lost the case. It's that simple. They lost the case because the laws which the decision was based were written by people who represent a majority that are Christians.

    Also, I find it interesting that you would call all of what I posted came from analysis of the case from lawyers from all over the place. It is obvious that you do not create arguements from research but rather bicker to make your points.

    Might I recommend that you use a search engine to get some perspective on how the legal system works here in the USA? You won't find any good answers in your pitcher of Kool-Aid, sir! :D

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    To Daniel Paul re: Wilson v Ake....

    The court based it's opinion upon the precedent contained within cases that had come before it and more importantly it did not have the authority to legislate a difference based upon it's limited mandate.

    You really need to learn to read and comprehend what was said and not second guess what the court said. It said it could not determine there was a suspect class since it was bound by the cases within it's jurisdiction, not that it wouldn't if the case law supported the identification of the suspect class!

    When you make these misguided and unsupported allegations it only proves that you not only lack the ability to understand the English language, it goes even further to illustrate that you completely lack comprehension skills as well.

    It is apparent you also lack any formal training in the law as evidenced by your repeated foul ups with regard to coverage of law in your postings and that alone should give you the reason not to revisit this area and leave it to those of us who have the training, efficacy and knowledge to do so properly and without the taint of you clouded mind controlled ideology so prevalent in the banter you offer up.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Is America a "christian nation"? READ THE BLOG!!!
    TFR

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP, sad, huh?

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "had she died or taken a turn for the worse, then it would have made headlines again"

    Why is it only negative stuff is "news worthy"? Makes you wonder if the news folks need medication....

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:22 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    DP, the news hasn't reported anything new, which I'm taking for a good sign (had she died or taken a turn for the worse, then it would have made headlines again.)

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Hey, Mike!!! What's the status on that little girl?

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "http://www.domawatch.org/cases/1stcircuit/GillvOPM/gill-complaint-03-03-09.pdf"

    It's an interesting case indeed. The problem comes in with the postal service. The complaint lists the post office as a federal agency. It was my impression they were a private organization now.

    Never the less the US Supreme Court has shown no interest in hearing any cases against DOMA. Why? Who knows. My guess, as with the current case, is that insurance is not a civil right. Having been a single parent with 4 children and finding that making $7/hr at 45 hr/wk average was making too much for medicaid/medicare...I can say they are not discriminating here.

    Benefits are not a "right" under the law ... they are a "priviledge". This year we have to provide documentation that we have the legal standing to have our children covered under our insurance.

    Having read the complaint...the problem is if there is a Constitutional issue the Court can base hearing the case on. It doesn't matter if you think the issues are legit or not. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a Constitutional foundation the Court will buy into and/or if it even should.

    In Wilson v Ake the judge ruled "homosexuality is not a suspect class that would require subjecting DOMA to strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause."

    In short, marital status is not a "class of people".

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:10 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    DP, exactly, marriage is regulated at the state level!!! DOMA regulates from the federal level, the exact reason MA is challenging it.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Hyperion you constantly threaten physical violence in your posts."

    A bit of a psychotic view of the posts there.... :D

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "The info you posted pertain to intrastate, not interstate recognition. please pay attention and listen when you are give the full story, especially when it comes from those of us who have the qualifications, knowledge & experience in covering these areas that you DP sorely lack." Gotta love it. When they can't fight the arguement...up goes the compost. Actually, one federal agency has said I'm a "knowledgeable person" (their term for expert) in specific areas of Civil Rights law. So, I actually do understand state to state transfer of rights. Although it is true some rights are federal...marriage is not one of them. There is no "federal marriage license". It is done by each state and regulated by each state. It is not standardized from the federal level. You may want to leave civil rights law to "knowledgeable people" instead of just calling us names! :D More facts...less name calling! hide

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Shmore... Go check out some of the articles there. They have quoted stuff like it on this site for months....

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Apparently you didn't read the article or missed the portion about the Federal act DOMA infringes upon the acceptance and recognition of the marriages performed in Massachusetts by other States in the Union under Full Faith and Credit "

    The article reads:

    We're taking this action today because, first, we believe that [DOMA] directly interferes with Massachusetts' long-standing sovereign authority to define and regulate the marital status of its residents," said Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley.

    Massachusetts doesn't have the right to regulate other states or the Federal Law. They have the right to regulate their own state and challenge any Federal law which infrindges on their "states rights". They do not have the right to make their marriages accepted in other states any more than another country has the right to force the USA to accept what they may call marrige.

    Based on the statement quoted above from the article, I do not understand your question. Please explain.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Where are the secularists among "us" to support your claim? "

    Hey, Alocksee...you want to speak up here? He's talking to you! :D

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show DP: "Yours is the straw man arguement. I did not demonize all secularists". This is yet another straw man argument since I did not claim you demonized all secularists. DP: Please note I referred to the secularists among us. "Us" is here on this board who have specifically said that religion has no place in our "secular society". I can't think of any secularists among "us" who claim that society is secular. Nor can I think of any secularists among "us" who claim that religion has no place in society. Nor can I think of any secularists among "us" who claim that idiotic superstition has no place in society. Nor can I think of any secularists among "us" who claim that rank stupidity has no place in society. Where are the secularists among "us" to support your claim? If you can't point to any, then your argument is indeed a straw man argument. hide

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "Use the straw man argument to demonize opponents, in this case secularists, with the implication that secularists are betrayers of the US Constitution."

    Yours is the straw man arguement. I did not demonize all secularists. I made the statement specifically towards those secularists who want to exclude religious beliefs from a society which contains religious people. Perhaps you misunderstood my statement. Please note I referred to the secularists among us. "Us" is here on this board who have specifically said that religion has no place in our "secular society".

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Set up a straw man argument."

    The statement used by socialism for decades. Thanks for showing you politics.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "To call me stupid would be hate speech and be illegal; however, to call Jesus stupid is not illegal and is a religious issue not a legal one." Another added that hate speech "should of course be illegal," yet Blasphemy given free reign "because unlike hate speech against homosexuals, no one is going to get hurt." The first argument, of course, begs the question, assuming up front what it intends to conclude: that religious issues don't count as legal issues, therefore blasphemy is not "hate speech." (Peter Hammond, "Blasphemy Debate at University," rontline Fellowship News, 2009 Ed. 2, 7.)
    Christians, rather, should argue that blasphemy is the most fundamental and most serious and subversive form of hate speech, and should carry requisite legal sanctions.

    Atheists and humanists begin with man and wish to derive "hate speech" from that standard. This devolves into a state where individuals, culture, law, and art can curse and mock all religion, virtue, sexuality, and all transcendent standards, and seek legal protection for such acts. Thus, homosexuality for example, which incarnates a gross perversion of the sex act - indeed the ultimate mockery of it - seeks legal protection from even criticism.

    When society displays such characteristics, it reveals the depth of its rebellion against the Creator. The proper way to protect name, reputation, and human rights in general, is not to profane God and exalt man. Unless men first revere God and honor an ultimate allegiance to the divine origin of mankind, and protect these beliefs by legal consequence, they shall denigrate everything glorious that man can be, and then protect their perversions and obscenity by recourse to legal force.


    Blasphemy and Freedom
    http://www.americanvision.com/presuppositionalapologetics.aspx

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain (Ex. 20:4-6).

    The concept of "God's name" so closely pertains to His Being and Nature that any affront to any of God's attributes is subsumed under the very mention of His name. The reference to God's name invokes all that God is and stands for...

    The majesty of God as represented by God's name confronts mankind at every turn of life. And so, the commandment against taking God's name "in vain" fairly warns us against all forms of action, or neglect, concerning the very nature of the God we serve. It means that the Biblical doctrine of God (Who is He?, What is His nature?, What has He done in history?) must inform every act and every decision we make. If the foundations of society rest upon anything less than that God, when we act in the name of God Almighty (for example, the presidential oath including "So help me God"), we have violated the Third Commandment. Conversely, when society begins to denigrate, curse, or swear at the name or mention of God, then we have an even worse situation in which society has attacked God Himself, and has sought to replace Him with something else as the foundation.

    Think of the label "Christian," first given in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and which we bear today. How do we "carry" that label? How do we present that label to the world, and what justice do we do it? Do we bear it in any degree of vanity or emptiness? Implicit in this Third Commandment is a condemnation of hypocrisy - of wearing a label we don't measure up to in substance. And in not measuring up, we prove ourselves hypocrites, and we dishonor, we can even say blaspheme, the name of the God whose name we bear.

    Bearing God's name in truth - not in vain, but in truth - is the bedrock of religion and therefore of social health. In fact, the very word "religion" means "to bind" in the sense of binding allegiance. Such language fills the Bible: the whole concept of being God's servant relates to this idea.

    Here is an example of the myopia of humanistic reasoning in trying to denigrate religion while exalting man:

    con't

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show wowie »Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:49 pm Oh I think I get it now Al, you're afraid you WILL see a secular argument? How else can you discard 158,000 Google search because of two articles???? And BTW, the first article I did read and there is nothing about religion in it.... that is SECULAR right?? Like I said, I don't care, you are the one obsessed with it... I'll leave you to your reading :o) -------------------------------------------------------- In response: Obviously you didn't read the article and understand the quote I showed completely contradicted your position and invalidated the article for use to support the issue. As to the google search results, it is up to you to go through them and prove that any of them supports your position. So lets see you fetch and actually put forth something valid and IF you do I will certainly call attention to it. BTW, I have already covered this issue in far greater detail than you and a dozen of your friends will ever do but go ahead and cite your sources and stick to secular non religious evidence and prove your point. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction TFR hide

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show DanielPaul> #DOMA infringed on states rights then Mass. wouldn't be allowed to recognize gay marriage.... duh! #Daniel Paul »Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:43 am "DOMA is not required for States Rights and please post your secular facts to prove this." Prop 8 on the one hand and Mass. allowing homosexual marriages on the other. Secular enough? -------------------------------------------------------- In response: Apparently you didn't read the article or missed the portion about the Federal act DOMA infringes upon the acceptance and recognition of the marriages performed in Massachusetts by other States in the Union under Full Faith and Credit (which means the duties that states within the United States have to respect the "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings" of other states),that Clause of the Constitution and other provisions are in conflict. So where do you, DP arrive at the conclusion That DOMA doesn't violate States Rights since it prevents recognition of the previously listed of MASS from being given it's rightful honored the same way opposite sex marriages performed in it are and those are afforded additional protections and benefits. The info you posted pertain to intrastate, not interstate recognition. please pay attention and listen when you are give the full story, especially when it comes from those of us who have the qualifications, knowledge & experience in covering these areas that you DP sorely lack. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction TFR hide

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:04 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Hyperion wrote: "in my stance of victory over my enemies, if that defeated hand is raised against me, I will cut it off. In other words, YOU KEEP COMING, WE WILL KEEP KNOCKING YOU DOWN." Hyperion you constantly threaten physical violence in your posts. That is psychologically unhealthy for you, and dangerous to people around you. We all have anger to deal with, but you glorify physical violence as if you were Satan himself. You should stop threatening people with physical violence, and see a counselor about it before you follow through on one of your self-righteous threats. hide

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show DP: "Anyone who makes the distinction that our society is secular betrays the US Constitution. Our society is made up of all people both secular and religious. To deny that is prejudice in the worst possible way." Set up a straw man argument. DP: "Just another example of "one way tolerance" demanded by the secularists among us." Use the straw man argument to demonize opponents, in this case secularists, with the implication that secularists are betrayers of the US Constitution. To find real betrayers of the Constitution one need look no further than the court case of Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. From the ruling of Judge Jones: "...adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy. The breathtaking inanity..." hide

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "you're being a moron now, stay silent if you have nothing constructive."

    Now, now... play nice! :D

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    If DOMA infringed on states rights then Mass. wouldn't be allowed to recognize gay marriage.... duh!

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "DOMA is not required for States Rights and please post your secular facts to prove this."

    Prop 8 on the one hand and Mass. allowing homosexual marriages on the other. Secular enough?

    Here's the religious side of the same:

    Jdg 21:25 "...every man did [that which was] right in his own eyes."

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:39 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Anyone who makes the distinction that our society is secular betrays the US Constitution. Our society is made up of all people both secular and religious. To deny that is prejudice in the worst possible way.

    Just another example of "one way tolerance" demanded by the secularists among us.

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "We're taking this action today because, first, we believe that [DOMA] directly interferes with Massachusetts' long-standing sovereign authority to define and regulate the marital status of its residents," said Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley."

    DOMA in no way interfers with the state doing what it wants. They can provide any services they want to as a state for their state. It's called 'states rights'.


    " in the state are still denied access to "critically important rights and benefits" because of DOMA."

    There are no state benefits being denied to people that the state does not have the authority to regulate. What they are trying to do is pawn off their responsibility onto the federal level. It's the same as Prop 8. The states have the right to provide what they want for their state AT THEIR EXPENSE.

    This isn't about rights. It's about money.

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:27 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hyperion....calling someone a moron?!? Are you sure you have a firm grip on Christianity? They way you speak, one would never know!

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:23 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    JC, the quote of mine you tried to use as evidence that I don't believe in God kind of backfired in your face, as I explicitly explained myself.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh I think I get it now Al, you're afraid you WILL see a

    secular argument? How else can you discard 158,000

    Google search because of two articles???? And BTW, the

    first article I did read and there is nothing about

    religion in it.... that is SECULAR right?? Like I said,

    I don't care, you are the one obsessed with it... I'll

    leave you to your reading :o)


    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Secular+argument+against+gay+marriage&aq=f&oq=&aqi=



    Flagger! Have you noticed the "show" button?? What is the point??

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show wowie »Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:12 pm : 0 : 0 Flag LOL, newsflash for Al, I didn't proofread all 158,000 Google results because I don't care....I'm not the one hung up on looking for a SECULAR reason on the CHRISTIAN POST...OK so keep reading...you've got a lot of material to go through.... ---------------------------------------------------------- In response: How about YOU do what was asked and actually weave some facts from these "secular" sources and show that you can actually write something illustrating the ability to think coherently and without the fundie bias so prevalent in your posts here. Try it and prove that you can produce an actual valid secular argument to support your position just once. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show wowie offers the following: Google: Secular Case Against Gay Marriage-158,000 Results http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Secular+argument+against+gay+marriage&aq=f&oq=&aqi= As proof of valid secular arguments and nothing else, hardly a well thought out discussion and a response in line with what was asked for. wowie was asked for HIS PROOF from valid secular sources to support his position and wowie DID NOT provide any secular source but pulled the typical post a fundie source and pretend it was valid when wowie knew full well it was a fundie, religiously biased source. FOX NEWS!! Please the ultimate biased source for fundie propaganda. The remaining sources leave little else to discuss beyond what has already been offered by me since it is nothing more than the same. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    LOL, newsflash for Al, I didn't proofread all 158,000 Google results because I don't care....I'm not the one hung up on looking for a SECULAR reason on the CHRISTIAN POST...OK so keep reading...you've got a lot of material to go through....

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    wowie offers the following:
    Google: Secular Case Against Gay Marriage-158,000 Results

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Secular+argument+against+gay+marriage&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

    As proof of valid secular arguments and nothing else, hardly a well thought out discussion and a response in line with what was asked for.

    wowois was asked for HIS PROOF form valid secular sources to support his position and not did wowie NOT provide any secualr source but pulled the typical post a fundie source and pretend it was valid when wowie knew full well it was a fundie, religiously biased source. FOX NEWS!! Please the ultimate biased source for fundie propaganda.

    The remaining sources leave little else to discuss beyond what has already been offered by me since it is nothing more than the same.

    http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction

    TFR

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Here is the bottom line from wowie's MIT article: "I do not claim that all of these other types of couples restricted from marrying are equivalent to homosexual couples" Nothing in the article from Adam Kolasinski, a doctoral student in financial economics provides anything to support his position after that admission. Since his admission is tantamount to completely contradicting his entire premise it goes without saying the entire article is nothing more than yet another piece based on nothing but rehashing of fundie and evangelical rhetoric that doesn't cover the subject, deal with reality as the comparisons have no connection by the author's own admission is invalidated. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/Where Truth Trumps fundie fiction TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show wowie » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:07 pm -------------------------------------------------------- In response: Here are wowie's "secular sources" William Kristol (Top evangelical) EDITOR William Kristol is editor of the influential Washington-based political magazine, The Weekly Standard. Widely recognized as one of the nation's leading political analysts and commentators, Mr. Kristol regularly appears on Fox News Sunday and on the Fox News Channel. Before starting The Weekly Standard in 1995, Mr. Kristol led the Project for the Republican Future, where he helped shape the strategy that produced the 1994 Republican congressional victory. Prior to that, Mr. Kristol served as chief of staff to Vice President Dan Quayle during the Bush administration and to Secretary of Education William Bennett under President Reagan. Before coming to Washington in 1985, Mr. Kristol taught politics at the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. REALLY? You couldn't ask for more of a fundie!! Next we look at another "secular source" Yeah Right LOL LOL LOL LOL ha ha ha ha LOL LOL LOL Please!!! http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth not fundie fantasy TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alockslee -Lets see the secular facts to prove your point here to and stop with the "those of our creator" as you don't speak for, stand in place of or were ever appointed, anointed or voted into the position to speak for any deity.

    So let see the factual proof and stop with the fundie agenda rhetoric, put it up or shut up as the religious angle to prevent equality didn't work with slavery, didn't work in interracial marriages. didn't work to prevent blacks gaining equal rights and certainly won't win on marriage equality and equal rights against LGBT.



    THE SECULAR CASE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1082190/posts
    Adam Kolasinski is a doctoral student in financial economics.


    The End of Marriage in Scandinavia
    The case for same-sex marriage collapses.
    (It's legal there, they might know what they're talking about.)
    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp?pg=1


    Google: Secular Case Against Gay Marriage-158,000 Results

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Secular+argument+against+gay+marriage&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:16 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "As for a personal belief system, I have chosen to reject my own opinions and thinking." Right there we have a problem. I think it's lunacy to do that. To put it in your terms, why did god give you a brain if you're not supposed to use it? "I do not judge you. I only warn you and attempt to help you prepare for the one who has all right to, and will judge you." And how do you decide who needs to be 'warned'? By JUDGING people and placing them into categories. Yet somehow you don't think you judge?? I think you're so brainwashed by your religion you can't even think clearly anymore. Geez, is that what religion does? No thanks. hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:49 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show vanb » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:53 am :"DOMA" does not stop Massachusetts and other states from allowing perverted marriages, it only protects other states and their citizens from being forced to support what these states want to push upon us. State Rights require upholding DOMA. As for a personal belief system, I have chosen to reject my own opinions and thinking ...I do not judge you. I only warn you and attempt to help you prepare for the one who has all right to, and will judge you. I cannot condemn you. Make your choice. You will either choose condemnation or salvation. I urge you to reject your own thinking, "personal belief system," or ways - whatever they may be - and accept those of our creator. -------------------------------------------------------- Woah slow down a tad bit there son.... DOMA is not required for States Rights and please post your secular facts to prove this. Not your religious/ideology based beliefs, the actual secular facts that prove it. 2. For someone not judging you sure do lay it on thick and then push the fundie agenda to the umpth degree. Lets see the secular facts to prove your point here to and stop with the "those of our creator" as you don't speak for, stand in place of or were ever appointed, anointed or voted into the position to speak for any deity. So let see the factual proof and stop with the fundie agenda rhetoric, put it up or shut up as the religious angle to prevent equality didn't work with slavery, didn't work in interracial marriages. didn't work to prevent blacks gaining equal rights and certainly won't win on marriage equality and equal rights against LGBT http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth, Justice and the American Way - BTW The American Way is SECULAR!!! TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:39 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Beloved, God is truth. If this makes me close-minded because I am standing upon that which is written, then so be it. However, I am standing upon that which is written beloved, what are you standing upon?" JC, please. You have written this same basic thing 100 times. You prove what I just wrote. And you appear to have no grasp of the concept that others who believe differently than you believe just as strongly as you that they are right. (I can just hear you, "But unlike them I really am right.") You essentially say, "I am right because god says such and such, and I know what god says and what god meant by what he said and god is right so I am right and that's all there is to it." Ok, sure, whatever. See, no matter what anyone says you've decided on a particular (supernatural-based) belief system that conveniently lets you off the hook and makes you never have to think again. How can it be reasonable for a person to cling so desperately to a belief system that they proudly vow to forever ignore all else? I don't expect any of this to even begin to sink it... Oh and please don't call me 'beloved.' I find it grossly disingenuous. It's completely at odds with your entire attitude and how you act. It makes you seem like a hare krishna at an airport or some kind of brainwashed cult member, smiling benignly but being out of touch with reality. It's kind of creepy. I know you think you mean it, but I find it disturbing to think you call that love. hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:59 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Now, that's my current understanding, and it may well change, and I could be wrong etc. I do not condemn you to Hell if you do not agree with my interpretation. And I will not try to take away your civil and legal rights or call you a liar if you disagree with me. I would appreciate the same benign, merely passive kindness from you. Do you think you can be so kind? :-) hide

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:58 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show JC, if I understand correctly, you interpret the phrase "his name is called The Word of God" to be referring to the 66 books of the Bible as we currently have it? Correct me if I am misunderstanding that. I can see that as an interpretation, but I do not personally think that is what was meant. To me it seems to refer to the Logos as described in John chapter 1. And that is *way* complicated! My understanding of the gospel of John is that the writer is asserting that Jesus is that Logos incarnated. That Logos itself is a very complicated thing. For a starting point, our word "logic" arises from the word Logos. I understad Logos to refer to something like the opposite of Chaos. So Truth, not as opposed to Falsehood but rather as opposed to muddled nothingness. Logic, truth, science, or more like "the Truths that science is trying to understand." :-) hide

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