Updated 09:38 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Ministries|Wed, Aug. 12 2009 09:50 AM EDT

Focus on the Family Hands Over 'Love Won Out'

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Focus on the Family announced on Tuesday that it will be passing the reigns of its Love Won Out conferences on homosexuality to another ministry.

The move is a logical step, the Colorado Springs-based evangelical organization said, especially as it faces a "serious" budget shortfall.

"Everyone knows these are challenging times for organizations and individuals all across the globe," said Gary Schneeberger, vice president of media and public relations for Focus on the Family, in a statement. "It is not an inexpensive undertaking to put on a Love Won Out event; and contrary to what our detractors say, the conferences rarely have recouped the financial investment made in them. That is a cost we have always paid because of the positive impact the events have had."

Jim Daly, president and CEO of the family ministry, said income is down nearly $6 million from what they planned for this year.

Starting November, Love Won Out conferences will be led by Exodus International, one of the largest Christian organizations that deals with homosexual issues and promotes "freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ." Exodus has always contributed to and been a part of the conferences.

Although financial realities played a role in the conference's transition, Schneeberger said the move also makes strategic sense.

"Exodus is really the one who should be running 'Love Won Out' anyway," he said, according to The Associated Press.

Launched in 1998, the Love Won Out conference has traveled to churches around the world, educating Christians on how to respond to the issue of homosexuality in a biblical way and offering hope to those struggling with same-sex desires. The conference has been met with dozens of protests by gay activists who claim the event sends a message of homophobia and hatred.

But James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family and a preeminent evangelical, has stressed that Love Won Out conferences are not about hate or rejection.

"Regardless of what the media might say, Focus on the Family has no interest in promoting hatred toward homosexuals or anyone else," he last year as the ministry marked the 10th anniversary of Love Won Out. "We also don't wish to deprive them of their basic constitutional rights. The Constitution applies to all of us."

While the conservative family group opposes redefining marriage, Dobson said they are committed to loving homosexuals and reaching out to them.

Focus on the Family will continue to support Love Won Out financially and by providing speakers.

"After all, we're still in the truth and grace business," commented Melissa Fryrear, director of the ministry's gender issues department and a Love Won Out speaker and host for more than six years.

The transition comes as Exodus International is boosting efforts to educate and equip mainline and evangelical churches to respond to homosexuality compassionately and effectively. Last month, Exodus announced plans to merge with outreach ministries of the Presbyterian and Reformed faith communities and The United Methodist Church.

Alan Chambers, president of Exodus International, said the Love Won Out conference is "a natural fit" in their ongoing efforts.

"Love Won Out has been and will continue to be a powerful event dedicated to helping the global Christian church better understand and more effectively reflect biblical truth and Christ-like compassion to a hurting world," Chambers assured.

The final Love Won Out conference for 2009 is scheduled for Nov. 7 in Birmingham, Ala., and will be led by Focus on the Family before the transition.

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  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    No problem, sister . . . I mean brother. :)

    Actually, for a couple months I too thought Jeho was a male. She doesn't mince words, especially when she posts the "wonderful words of life."

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    weekender, thanks for correcting me!!

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:03 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    jn, my apology for assuming you were a guy my sister in Christ! :O)

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:30 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer: Don't forget that JN is a "she," not a "brother in Christ."

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    jn, and I continue to love and repect you as a brother in Christ as well and look forward to reading your posts and especially with your knowledge of the Word of God in these matters. Be blessed as you continue serving Him!

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    To whom did JESUS CHRIST LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR?

    Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


    Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    All PRAISE and Glory to GOd....

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    believer » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:12 am : 0 : 0 Flag
    jn, since it appears you are a 5 Point Calvinist and I am not then of course our view and approach to sinners will be very different. And I would caution you to take that into consideration when you evaluate the posts of others to the unbelievers who post on these sites. And as I said earlier the issue of God's Sovereignty vs. Free Will to me will not be completely resolved until we reach glory. And to be honest that is an issue that I personally will not plant my feet in concrete over and especially since God's Word does not clearly show where
    As I said I am by no means an Armenian but at the same time I am not a 5 Point Calvinist as you appear to be.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Brother,

    i knew that. That was why i said earlier that i don't think it is the right time and place to discuss it. i still respect you and love you because you are my brother. However, when it comes to the truth regarding God's Sovereignty (Predestiantion) vs. Free Will, i will present God's revealed truth on that matter if the opportunity arises.


    God bless!

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:12 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    jn, since it appears you are a 5 Point Calvinist and I am not then of course our view and approach to sinners will be very different. And I would caution you to take that into consideration when you evaluate the posts of others to the unbelievers who post on these sites. And as I said earlier the issue of God's Sovereignty vs. Free Will to me will not be completely resolved until we reach glory. And to be honest that is an issue that I personally will not plant my feet in concrete over and especially since God's Word does not clearly show where the balance is with regards to individuals being saved based on God's Sovereignty(Predestiantion) vs. Free Will. As I said I am by no means an Armenian but at the same time I am not a 5 Point Calvinist as you appear to be.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    RJ,

    Brother, thanks for your concern. Studying reformed theology has been the most liberating for me. It is not about calvin. It is about GOd gifting and using His people to serve Him in proclaiming the pure gospel.

    Have you even studied Calvin's teachings on "TULIP" and checked it with scripture to see if it is true?

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer,

    Have i ever implied that i know who GOd's elect are among the lost? Only God knows who are His.(2 Tim 2:19) And for the elect's sake we present the pure Gospel so that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus {and} with {it} eternal glory. (2 Tim 2:10.). Watering down the gravity of sin is not presenting the pure gospel, brother.


    you wrote: "... jn, the only problem is that neither you or I are God and therefore we do not have the ability to determine who indeed has turned themselves over to a reprobate mind ..."

    It is GOd who gave them over to reprobate mind, brother (Rom 1:24-28)... that is a sobering truth indeed.
    Who are we to dispute with God's judgement?

    But God know who are His and in His appointed time through the preaching and teaching of the pure gospel those who are ordained to eternal life shall believe.

    He will save those whom He has chosen, be them homosexuals as proven in 1Cr 6:11 --- Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    My point, brother, is that you can not be more gracious than GOD. If GOd has chosen some for salvation then it follows that those whom He has chosen were among those condemned. ALL are guilty before God but in His grace and mercy have chosen and decreed some for salvation. And these are the ones He draws and gives to CHRIST.

    Peace brother.

  • rj78 »
    Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:48 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Calvin was influenced by the writings of Augustine.

    Augustine believed that God made mankind sinful and decided to elect a finite number of them to replace the angels who followed Lucifer into rebellion. This is never mentioned in the Bible.

    Augustine was himself influenecd by Persian philosopher Mani, who introduced Augustine to the heresy of Gnosticism and the doctrine of total depravity and the doctrine of the elect.

    Be careful in whom you allow to influence you.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jn, the only problem is that neither you or I are God and therefore we do not have the ability to determine who indeed has turned themselves over to a reprobate mind, but we do know they made the choices to become an enemy of God to the point that some may have hardened their hearts to a degree that some believe they can no longer be saved. But once again only God can make that determination and in fact there was a time in our lives where we perhaps saw ourselves enemies of God. And for me personally that is why I cling to Romans 5:8 which as you know says that even while we were indeed still enemies of God, sinners, that God demonstrated His love to us by allowing His Son, Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for us. So once again I will choose to error on the side of God's grace when dealing with unbelievers since God alone is capable of determining the true condition of the hearts of the unbelievere we encounter on this earth. And that for me means to share with unbelievers that although God hates their sin and even though they may see themselves as an enemy of God, that God loves them and desires a personal relationship with them to the point He allowed His Son, Jesus Christ to die on the Cross for them and if they would repent of their sin and turn to God by putting their complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone they will be forgiven and immediately become a child of God and have a home in heaven for all eternity.

  • rj78 »
    Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:24 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    God does not make anyone gay-see Romans 1:22-27, James 1:13-15.

    God sent His son Jesus to die for the sins of gay people, and everyone. John 3:16, Luke 19:10.

    God loves gay people (and so do I), but they must repent of their sin and receive Jesus.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Blessings JEFF (right?)

    Yes, brother, please, share.

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Should we let the lost think lightly of sin? With the sword of God's justice hanging over them, should we let them make a mock of sin? Should we let them be happy-go-lucky? Should welet them make mirth? No, my brother, it is only the patience and long-suffering of God that has kept Him from already casting them into hell. Rom. 2:4 asks the question, “"espisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

    Yes, it has only been the goodness of God that they are not already destroyed for the very same sins that others have committed and were slain.

    i beseech our gay folks here: ".. though the wheels of God's justice grind slowly, they do grind, and someday, if the goodness and kindness of God does not lead you to repentance, then surely God will say, "Tonight your soul shall be required of you, come and give an account of your sins." Then how will you stand?

    ------------------------------------------------------

    With the love of the Lord, God bless you.. :O(

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    How do you explain your posts in the light of those verses and Roms 1 for instance?

    Romans 1:18-32 is the beginning of Paul's argument in Romans that all human beings are sinful and fallen, deserving God's condemnation. Although God has clearly revealed Himself in creation, human beings have suppressed this knowledge. "They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...” (1:25). The result of this, Paul says, is that "God gave them over to shameful lusts' (1:26a). He then illustrates this with reference to homosexual behavior.

    I love you, brother, but you have not fully presented the Glory of God in that He is HOLY...HOLy...HOLY. God's Word does not deal with sin lightly. " We should pray for the lost that God by His Spirit give them a hatred for sin, an alarm in their soul about sin, a cry unto God against sin and a turning unto God in Christ for the remission of sin. Oh that they would cry after Him to have mercy upon them in Christ so that they would not sin the sin unto death."

    For one sin, the sin of disobedience, Adam threw the whole human race into chaos and confusion (Gen.3;Rom.5). From Adam we received our sinful, totally depraved nature. For one sin,- sodomy - Ham brought the curse of God down upon his posterity (Gen. 9). For one sin-unbelief-Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt (Gen. 19). For one sin- rebellion- Korah and his crowd were swallowed up by the opened earth and went down quickly into the pit alive (Num. 16). For one sin-anger-Moses was kept out of the promised land (Num. 20). For one sin-covetousness that led to stealing-Achan and all his family was stoned (Josh. 7). For one sin-rebellion-King Saul was rejected and the Lord left him forever (I Sam. 15). For one sin-covetousness that led to lying to the Holy Spirit-Ananias and Sapphira were stricken dead by the power of God (Acts 5). On and on the Scriptures go to tell us that God does not deal lightly with sin. He will and does smite sin where He finds it, even when He found it upon His only Son upon the cross. God must and He did pour out wave after wave of His wrath upon Him, for Christ had undertaken to bear the sins of His people.

    ...con't

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    believer wrote:

    "....since I would prefer to error on the side of grace rather than believe God purposely creates people to willfully send them to hell..."

    "...my concern was how me not buying into predestination waters down the issue of sin..."

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    ** believer » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:14 pm : 2 : 0 Flag gguy, once again God does not condemn or discipline anyone for being homosexual......

    ** believer » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:59 am : 1 : 0 Flag wr, does God discipline us for being a sinner or for sinning? Needless to say He disciplines us when we sin and not simply because we are a sinner and that is the point I was trying to make to garage guy, that God does not discipline him for being a homosexual but He will discipline him for committing the sexual sins of homosexuality be they in thought or deed.


    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Above are two of your posts that does not reflect God's judgement on sinners. You somehow have sugarcoated sin that it no longer appear grievous to God. He hates it with a perfect hatred. The Holy God of the Bible is without iniquity, and of purer eyes than to behold or approve of sin (Hab. 1:13).

    The WORD OF GOD declares in Rom. 8:7 that the "carnal [or fleshly] mind is enmity against God;(not just the acts) for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." This is the essence of sin: the whole mind, the whole heart, the whole will of man is set in active rebellion against God. This being so, then the Word of God expresses this enmity and acts of hostility as walking contrary to God (Lev. 26:21), as rebellion against God (Isa. 1:2), as rising up against God as an enemy (Micah 2:8), as striving and contending with God (Isa. 45:9), and as despising God (Num. 11:20). Also being in this state of active rebellion against God makes men haters of God (Rom. 1:30), resistors of God (Acts 7:51), fighters against God (Acts 5:39), even blasphemers of God, and in short, atheists who say there is no God (Psa. 14:1).

    con't

  • Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:00 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    I've always told people that I'm a Five Point Calvinist -- if you allow me to explain the so-called five points of calvinism.

  • Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    jn, to be honest I consider myself a four and a half point Calvinist since as I said I would rather error on the side of free will when it comes to the issue of predestination. But once again my concern was how me not buying into predestination waters down the issue of sin. Have a blessed night and Wednesday!

  • Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "jn, before I respond please cite how my view that God did not specifically create people in order to send them to hell waters down God's Word? "
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Believer,

    It is clear, brother, that i lean more towards calvinism and you lean more towards arminianism and i don't think this is the right place and time to discuss this.

    However, if another opportunity arises, we will.

    You are my brother :O)
    Thanks




    P.S. For the sake of those who may not yet know Calvinism and Arminianism are two systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the matter of salvation.

  • Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "Jesus pulled us out of the Hell of superstition.

    We have already been saved. Don't push yourself back in."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Jesus also pulled us out of the hell of sin, so why do you continue to wade in it?

  • Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Garageguy, Its not my place to direct you regarding a faith community but based on the statements you have made you might try locating some Quakers (not my denomination). You can research Quakerism quite easily on the web and no you don't have to eat oatmeal three times a day.

  • Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:11 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    believer
    You have commented...
    "....but He will discipline him for committing the sexual sins of homosexuality be they in thought or deed."

    Yes. According to thought and deed.

    It is suggested that Adam sinned when he took the apple and ate. Not so. He sinned when he believed the words of Eve over the words of God. His action confirmed what was in his heart.

    God disciplines long before the act is committed.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:44 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    jn, before I respond please cite how my view that God did not specifically create people in order to send them to hell waters down God's Word?

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:42 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    >>"We have already been saved."<<

    Yeah...right. Tell THAT to the folks in Matthew 7:21 and Revelation 3:16.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show DITL wrote: "I don't think we will ever win the lost for Christ if we approach the Gospel from just this attribute of God and ignore His other attributes; Holiness, Justice and Judgment." We will never win them for Christ if we misrepresent Christ as a bully. Jesus pulled us out of the Hell of superstition. We have already been saved. Don't push yourself back in. hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:42 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Blessings to you
    God's Delight,


    It is true, my sister. Knowing God and and a deeper understanding of His attributes will help us "see" why He does what He does and accept it as His perfect will. We will "see" Him as HE is HOLY RIGHTEOUS and JUST!!


    These are some of the links that helped me in studying --

    The Attributes of GOD
    -------------------

    ** http://www.preceptaustin.org/attributes_of_god.htm

    ** http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Gods-Attributes/

    ** http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attributes.htm

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Hi viking: "I was wondering if you believe that YOU exist as a self. That meaning a purposefull agent rather than a purposeless artifact of the universe." Yes, absolutely. "Do you believe that you have the actual capacity to choose between actions or thoughts." Yes, absolutely. "Finally do you believe that you have the capacity for rationality." Yes, absolutely. I adore rationality. I will look up what you suggest. Sounds intriguing. I have a healthy fascination with all the things mankind does not (yet) understand. When I left the church I grew up with, I spent some time looking for another. I think it's because I felt the things you asked above, and it seemed the right church might help me explore them. I'm sad to say, every church I looked at seemed consumed with arguing about specific rules, appeasing fears of death, judging others (probably to feel better themselves), creating a money & power structure, or some other set of goals that repelled me. I've done much better taking on a humanist belief and exploring my questions myself and organizally as they come up in life's interactions. hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    believer » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:31 pm : 1 : 0 Flag
    jn, I guess that this is where we're going to have to disagree, since I would prefer to error on the side of grace rather than believe God purposely creates people to willfully send them to hell. As I said earlier the debate between God's sovereignty and free will is one that will not be settled until we arrive in glory, but I for one am not willing to believe God has created people who are destined to hell and have no choice in the matter. And in fact of the Calvinists I know or I should say who claim to be Calvinists not a one of them believes that either.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------


    That's ok if you disagree with me. You say "God's sovereignty and free will is one that will not be settled until we arrive in glory," and I say i believe God has revealed His will on this matter already, Being a calvinist is the the point here. It is believing the Sovereignty of GOD over man's will as revealed in the scriptures.

    I know for sure that your understanding will lead to watering down of the pure Word of God with regards to sin. As i have read in your other posts as quoted by GGUY;


    Getting back to believer's statement...

    Gay people do not choose that they be gay. No one ever would. In religious terminology, god made them that way. So how can that same god condemn them for falling in love and creating a life of love together?

    Basic challenges to logic like this are not forthrightly addressed. At least, not in a way that makes sense to me. If I were ever to embrace a religion it woullhave to make more sense to me than that.

    --------------------

    Now that statement sure gets the hearts of our gay folks here but it is totally unbiblical. Romans 1 clearly teaches that "they have exchanged the truth for a lie". If exchange, my brother , is a willfull choice.

    I need not explain further.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Thank you, believer. I think if you someday consider civil marriage and religious marriage as separate things, as I do, we might even see eye to eye. hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gguy, you sure ask some tough questions, but my hope is our society will institute domestic partnership laws that will indeed guarantee any two consenting adults who live in the same household and are each others primary caregivers the same legal rights and benefits as any married heterosexual couple regardless of their gender, sexual orientation, and/or sexual intentions.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Garage guy,
    Hi on another post you stated.

    I revere science, logic, facts, human knowledge, and reality (real reality, not the engineered kind on TV). I don't need a supernatural belief system to get me through life.

    I was wondering if you believe that YOU exist as a self. That meaning a purposefull agent rather than a purposeless artifact of the universe.
    Also Do you believe that you have the actual capacity to choose between actions or thoughts. Meaning truly choose rather than have your actions and thoughts be the end result of a long line of non-rational natural causes. Finally do you believe that you have the capacity for rationality. Meaning that your conclusions are actually derived from logical consideration of sensory evidence rather than determined by the universes non rational shaping of you.

    If you believe you have identity, rationality, or free will then you don't actually believe in a purely naturalist/materialist universe since the world view of naturalism holds that these things do not exist and that human beings are simply purposeless, non rational artifacts of the universe like a hydrogen atom or the rings of saturn.

    You can learn more about this by googling the Argument from reason. If you do try reading about this without the prejudice that bad experiences with organized religion can cause. good luck.

    I would hate to think that I had been talking to a zombie.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show believer, I think domestic partnerships and civil unions are a good start. They are a step in the right direction but they are not equal and for that reason alone they are not the right "final" answer. States that have taken that approach are already finding out how different a CU or DP is treated under the law from a marriage. Try waving your DP paper in front of a hospital employee or other authority. They don't know exactly what it is, but they know it's not a marriage certificate. Not to mention, the federal government bestows the vast majority of familial protections and priveleges, far more than at the state level no matter where in America you live. Even if we let states do what they please, gay couples will remain lesser AND have to think twice before crossing a state line because who knows they will be treated 100 miles down the road. But maybe worst of all is the dignity factor. My aunt and her partner, for example. They ARE each other's spouse. They have been for 30+ years. What about them makes it ok that they be given a CU or DP paper instead of a marriage certificate, knowing that that paper will never get them the truly equal treatment, the automatic societal status and basic human respect and DIGNITY that any straight couple gets with a marriage license? hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gguy, why not a domestic partnership law that totally guarantees the same legal rights and benefits as those given to a heterosexual married couple rather than a civil marriage or union?

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:24 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    >>"reason, here God says that He has created the wicked for His purpose on the day of evil, clearly not much love here for the wicked".

    This is clearly a hard teaching but Jehovahnissi has nailed it well! We must allow for God to be God and not limit Him to one attribute, His Grace.

    The wicked LOVE the grace of God but Jesus was hated, beaten, insulted and finally nailed on the Cross to pay for our sins; sins He Himself did not commit.

    Because this fact and its dichotomy alone demonstrate there must be more to God than just God's Grace.

    I don't think we will ever win the lost for Christ if we approach the Gospel from just this attribute of God and ignore His other attributes; Holiness, Justice and Judgment.

    It's been said of the Book Of Romans that it is the Gospel within the Gospel and look how it is laid out. Paul had to get ALL lost, the immoral, the moral, the Jew and the religious within the first 3 chapters, then He moves us through the content of the Gospel and finally the exhortation to the Church.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show believer, thank you. That much compassion is truly appreciated. Unfortunately I fear you might pay for it here from others who disagree with you and would rather send me to hell immediately. A follow-on question: if a loving couple actually did stay celibate would you feel comfortable with that couple getting a city hall marriage license? It might sound hypothetical, but I know one such couple. They are two women in my extended family, an aunt and her partner, in their early 70s who have been together for over 30 years. We're fairly close, and I'm pretty certain they don't have a sexual relationship. (I'm not sure whether they did in the past, and I don't ask.) When one of them someday dies, I certainly hope the law doesn't treat like strangers. That would be a tragedy after all they've been through together. hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Great post gguy. Believer, it seems to me you are trying. Good work! :-) Everybody have a great day! hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gguy, I truly do respect both your honesty and frankness in your responses. But once again I'm not convinced that God creates people with same-sex attractions and at the same time people do not choose to have same-sex attractions since none of us can choose our temptations. As for homosexual relationships or better said relationships with people of the same sex, if you remove the sexual component, to include the romantic component that triggers the sexual desires you have no sin, but rather a close intimate relationship which by no means does God see as sin. It is only when the sexual component becomes a part of the relationship does sin enter into the relationship. So neither God nor I condemn you for having a strong loving friendship with someone of the same sex until that relationship crosses into sexual intimacy.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:13 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show believer wrote: "...rather than believe God purposely creates people to willfully send them to hell." That is very insightful. I appreciate everyone's answers to my questions about sin. But I do have to say, much of the responses sound painfully subjective. Some replies said basically, "If you are deciding what is sin and what is not, you are usurping the power of god." But isn't that exactly what every one of you who calls homosexuality a sin is doing? I know you think you are right, but so do the churches and others who don't believe it's a sin. Other people of faith--that is, other faiths--welcome and love and embrace ALL people. Not just the heterosexual ones. The cruel things that are said here about gay relationships make me shudder. We're talking about two human beings in a loving, nurturing relationship and sharing a committed life together. What could be more beautiful? It's one of the things we all universally strive for in life, but because some don't understand gay people they simply dismiss them. It's really sad, and not very kind. Getting back to believer's statement... Gay people do not choose that they be gay. No one ever would. In religious terminology, god made them that way. So how can that same god condemn them for falling in love and creating a life of love together? Basic challenges to logic like this are not forthrightly addressed. At least, not in a way that makes sense to me. If I were ever to embrace a religion it woullhave to make more sense to me than that. hide

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    jn, I guess that this is where we're going to have to disagree, since I would prefer to error on the side of grace rather than believe God purposely creates people to willfully send them to hell. As I said earlier the debate between God's sovereignty and free will is one that will not be settled until we arrive in glory, but I for one am not willing to believe God has created people who are destined to hell and have no choice in the matter. And in fact of the Calvinists I know or I should say who claim to be Calvinists not a one of them believes that either.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    WHILE JOHN 3:16 APPEARS ALL- INCLUSIVE, DO JOHN 6:37, 44, 45 INDICATE A RESTRICTION?
    http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/John316_637.html

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    The word "foreknow" cannot mean mere foresight or prescience. To claim such is to face the inescapable dilemma: either limit the omniscience of God or teach the glorification of all men. The absurdity of universal salvation is evident. If our word, therefore, means mere prescience, God does not know all things and persons, for all He foreknew will be ultimately glorified.

    No truth is more assuredly taught in Scripture than that God knows all things--previously, intuitively, instantly, perfectly, universally. Abandon your view or accept one horn of your own dilemma.

    To read "whom He did foreknow would repent and believe" is to commit two grievous sins. They are: reading into the passage what is wholly without warrant in the context; contradicting Pauline teaching that we are called "not according to our works but according to His Own purpose and grace" 2 Tim. 1:9.

    We repeat: To condition foreknowledge on foreseen repentance and faith is to ground it on character and subvert the whole and chief contention of Romans.

    Shedd, "God's electing love is His compassion and not His complacent delight in spiritual excellence and holiness."

    Stifler, "What His prescience saw in all men was enmity and helplessness in sin because of a love of it." Plainly, He foresaw that none would repent and believe and graciously provided in "His purpose" (verse 28) for this. The following links in the chain of His purpose secure what man had not and could not produce, that is, repentance and faith. Had not the acts of predestination, calling and justification procured these to a numberless multitude, all men would still be seen as inpenitent and unbelieving.

    God bless you!!

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:56 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    So who did God loved in John 3:16? Who is the "world" here? They are the people whom He foreknew....

    Rom 8:29 -30 --- For whom He forknew, He also predestined to be conformed t the image of His Son, That He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    So whom did GOd foreknow?

    Some claim that "foreknow" means those He foreknew would repent and believe. Some, too, claim that this is general, not specific and individual. They say that He foreknew a nation or class, as the class that would repent and believe. The issue is: Does the word mean mere foresight or prescience?

    Even a casual reader can see that the same "whom" that He foreknew, He predestinated, called, justified, and glorified. Stifler says, "This verse presents an argument by means of the recurring words 'whom' and 'them.' These are also links in the chain, forged in with it. 'Whom,' He did foreknow, 'them,' all of them, He did 'predestinate.' The next 'whom' takes up the same persons and carries them to the next stage, and so on to the end.

    The argument, when condensed, comes to this ---- that the very ones He foreknew, these, without the loss of one, He glorified." The chain of grace continues through its five links, and the iteration of the word "whom" shows that it affects the same persons in every particular phase of its work.

    We may safely interpret the acts of eternity past by what we experience in time. The calling and justification are individual and personal; so will our glorification be. This shows that the foreknowing and the predestinating, two phases of election, are personal.

    con't

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:29 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Just for the record: "What saith the Scriptures?"

    "…… God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psa 7:11) God is not angry at the sin, while loving the sinner He is angry with the sinners themselves.

    "How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft comes their destruction on them! God distributes sorrows in his anger." (Job 21:17) Truly it is a fearful thing for a sinner bound to Hell to fall into the hands of the living God.

    "The LORD has made all things for himself: yes, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Pro 16:4) As we see again God is specifically displeased with the person, not with the sin as if it existed outside the person. He even says that He has made the wicked for a certain reason i.e. the day of evil. Now let us not escape from reason, here God says that He has created the wicked for His purpose on the day of evil, clearly not much love here for the wicked.

    "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." (Luk 6:45) Jesus ties the sinner and the sin together. They are absolutely bonded together as one by the language of the Bible. Sins do not exist apart from the sinner.

    "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" (2Pe 2:12) This is a repetition of Pro 16:4 and still no love for these sinners whilst hating the sin only.

    "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1Co 16:22) Love the sinner but hate the sin? I think not.

    "If there come any to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:" (2Jo 1:10) No much love here for the sinner either.

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8) Clearly it is the sinners themselves that actually go to Hell, not their sins. So how can God love those that He knows, before time began would go to Hell, why create them if that would cause sorrow to Him, unless it is for His eternal glorious purpose.

    The phrase: "God loves the Sinner and hates only his Sin" is faulty and misleading, it should be removed from the lips of every Christian. The TRUTH is that God is perfectly displeased with the sinner bound to Hell. This sinner hates God, disobeys God, is ungrateful to God for all His favours, would kill God if he could. He is dead in trespasses and sins. (Eph 2:1) "The thoughts and intents of his heart are only evil continually." (Gen 6:5) He is the slave of sin (John 8:34) and the servant of the devil, (Eph 2:2).

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:59 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    wr, does God discipline us for being a sinner or for sinning? Needless to say He disciplines us when we sin and not simply because we are a sinner and that is the point I was trying to make to garage guy, that God does not discipline him for being a homosexual but He will discipline him for committing the sexual sins of homosexuality be they in thought or deed.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:54 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    believer
    You have commented...
    "gguy, once again God does not condemn or discipline anyone for being homosexual, but God's Word clearly teaches that sexual intimacy outside of marriage is a sin and God's original and only design for marriage is one man and one woman united as one for life in His sight."

    A little confusing here.
    If Homsexuality is not a sin, then there is nothing to condemn or discipline.

    But if Homesexuality is a sin, along with other sexual practices such as fornication and adultery, then such practices were judged on the cross.

    But God, in His Grace and Mercy, has granted us time to repent.

    Perhaps you meant to say that God loves us all but hates the sinful practices. For God so loved the World that He gave His only Son.

  • Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:31 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    >>"If someone has done that, and the answer they have received is that their homosexuality is not a sin, who is anyone else to judge that?"<<

    Gguy, as Believer did point out in his post, you go to the Holy Spirit AND the WORD of God to test whether something is from God or not. You would have to find (at least) one verse that spoke directly to the question, and preferrably two. The problem for you in this situation is there are NO verses in Scripture that imply homosexuality is within God's created order, NO examples of homosexuality that show it is approved by God and too many Scripture verses that plainly say homosexuality is sin and not approved by God.

    If you are understanding through spirit in opposition to the WORD, you are listening to a false spirit.

    The WORD of God affirms the Holy Spirit. If you depend on what you feel is a holy spirit and do not use the WORD to verify..then it becomes subjective; dependent upon your own personal inclinations and interpretations; and the resulting determination is probably a big, fat lie.

    >>"How can an outside person know better what is between an individual and their relationship with god?<<"

    In the same way an outside person can determine that homosexuality is a sin because it originates from an OBJECTIVE source, the Bible. The Holy Spirit will not personally whisper into your ear a special revelation if He has already revealed that Truth within the bounds of scripture. Which He has.

    If by saying "personal" faith you believe that it is subject to you, then just WHO is your faith in? Yourself?

    Jesus never felt we should keep our faith "personal" or He would not have commissioned the Great Commission. :D.

  • Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:53 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    i pray that for you,too,my brother....sing on with the grace of God in your heart!!

    Good night!... ;o)

  • Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:09 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Jeho: Thanks for sharing that passage of Scripture (remember, His Word will not return void). Those verses were committed to my memory because of a chorus my mother wrote to that passage when I was young.

    You have me singing those precious words right now (wish you could hear!). :)

  • Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:17 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    believer,

    My prayer is that of Paul for the Philippians:

    .... "that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; that ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offense until the day of Christ; being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God" (Philippians 1:9-11).
    ----------------------------------------------------

    gguy,

    If you are offended by the belief that homosexuality is condemned by the Bible or that you should refrain from promiscuity or lasciviousness, you should immediately take that matter up with the One who authored the Bible, GOD HIMSELF. Your lifestyle is a matter addressed by God. If your lifestyle does not fit into the provisions He has made for His children to live, your argument is with Him not man. You must always seek God's Will and be ready to accept His answer...

    READ ROMANS chapter 1

    here is a study help for you ---
    Romans 1:26-27 Commentary
    http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_126-27.htm

    If being homosexual is more important to you than pleasing God, it is your master and not Jesus. THE SAME APPLIES TO ANYTHING THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO YOU THAN GOD.

    --------------------------------------------------------
    IacceptHim,

    Did you really? how did you fare? :O)

    How about God's Delight ?

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