Updated 02:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Church|Thu, Oct. 01 2009 12:39 PM EDT

Protestants, Catholics Celebrate 10 Years of Consensus on Salvation

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Protestant and Catholic leaders are gathering in Chicago on Thursday to mark the tenth anniversary of a landmark ecumenical agreement made between the two faith traditions.

Considered the most significant agreement since the Reformation, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification was signed by the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation on Oct. 31, 1999 in an effort to end centuries of doctrinal dispute.

"For hundreds of years, the issue of justification by faith divided Catholics and Protestants," said Bishop Gregory Palmer, president of The United Methodist Church’s Council of Bishops, in a released statement. "This agreement celebrates consensus on the basic truths of the doctrine of justification."

Methodists joined the agreement in 2006 during a World Methodist Council meeting in Seoul, South Korea.

Representatives from all three traditions will be celebrating at Old St. Patrick's Church in Chicago while a second celebration is scheduled to take place on the actual anniversary date in Germany, where the joint declaration was signed.

"The JDDJ is a powerful testimony to what can be achieved when churches remain in dialogue addressing questions that have separated us for centuries," said LWF president the Rev. Mark S. Hanson, who also serves as presiding bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

The doctrine of justification was at the center of the sixteenth century Reformation. As the LDDJ states, "justification was the crux of all the disputes" between the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran tradition. Thus, the two faith groups believed that a common understanding of justification was "fundamental and indispensable" to overcoming the division.

Justification, according to the document, is the forgiveness of sins, liberation the dominating power of sin and death, and from the curse of the law, and it is acceptance into communion with God – all of which is from God alone, for Christ's sake, by grace, through faith in the gospel of God's Son.

In their common understanding, the Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church together confess: "By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

The joint declaration does not cover everything that either church teaches about justification but it encompasses a consensus on basic truths of the Christian doctrine.

Still, differences remain over language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification with regard to such matters as good works but the Lutheran and Catholic churches say those differences do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

The JDDJ was not signed without objections. Some in the Lutheran tradition were shocked to see their leaders make what they described as a compromising move.

Robert Preus, author of Justification and Rome, said the agreement compromises Lutherans' witness to the evangelical Lutheran doctrine on justification and the confessional principle itself.

Nevertheless, the joint declaration is often cited as a significant achievement in religious history, the Rev. Donald J. McCoid, executive, ELCA Ecumenical and Inter-Religious Relations, told the ELCA News Service.

The Chicago gathering is being attended by Hanson; LWF General Secretary the Rev. Ishmael Noko; Cardinal Francis George, who leads the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago and is president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops; and Palmer, among others.

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  • Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The reason you both have such incorrect understanding of scripture is because you are very limited in the way you study of scripture. You only read it with once sense, even though, as far back as the Early Church Fathers, scripture has always been read and interpreted rightly in the four senses. Sadly, you will always be in the dark because of this handicap of yours. It is comprable to person trying to understand a book written in another language besides one's own. The person may be very bright, but until he learns the meanings of all the words in all their nuances and the parts of speech, etc., he will never be able to really read the book with full comprehension.

    Until you do realize that, my trying to get through to you is like "casting pearls before swine". I will give up and leave it to the Holy Spirity to get through to you. Satan has closed your hearts and minds. Only the Spirit can unchain you.

    And I know you will have some quick retort that sounds good on the surface, but it is from Satan not our Good and Mighty God and will skew the rightful meaning of the word of God.

    God bless you and yours. You continue in my prayers.

  • Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:58 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Reading some of the comments of the Catholics on this site is really scary. The book of Revelation speaks about a one-world system, which means, there will be a one-world religion as well. Many governments are talking about a new world order.

    The United Nations seems to be the major player of this New World Order. However, the pope himself is the ONLY religious leader with a speakable as well as voteable presence in the United Nations.

    Therefore, if Catholicism is the religion chosen for the one world religion, it is not hard to imagine that these Catholics on this site would truly think that non-Catholics are heretics.

    Therefore, if the few who are on this site speak so strongly against those who are not a Catholic, I can only assume that the entire Catholic Church and other members agree, which means, another Inquisition could easily occur.

    Revelation 13

    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

  • Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:46 am Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

    "I do find it ironic that they hate our Sacred Tradition but fail to realize that the “Bible Alone” belief is simply a rather recent (500 year old) tradition proposed by the “reformers”, second millennium Sadducees."

    Why is it that whenever someone’s point is refuted they like to interject the word “hate”? This is nothing more than a red herring to deflect their inability to justify their claims. What is most ironic is the repetitive claim that their traditions come down to us directly from the apostles but yet they cannot specifically name these traditions or point us to a book, chapter, and verse in order to establish their position . . .


    Continental,

    Can you please show us where we can find Jesus or the apostles authoritatively quoting tradition? The fact is there is no such record of Jesus or the apostles’ authoritatively quoting tradition . . . Instead; you will only find them quoting Scripture; hmmm, kind of like the “Bible Alone” . . . I guess this practice goes back much further than 500 years . . .

  • Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:54 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 1

    I wonder if this "rancorous attitude on this blog is because they are former (lapsed) Catholics who have to keep justifying their leaving the faith of their upbringing." or because the catholics know we speak the truth, but can't admit it either because their catholic pride won't let them, or they don't have the guts to because they're afraid their catholic family and friends won't want to play with them anymore. Or both.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:52 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 2

    chas, we pay attention to your points, the problem is when we refute them using the Word of God you can't handle it since you have no valid scripture to support the false teaching of the roman catholic church.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:48 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 2

    chas, I guess you can't read either so here it is in capital letters for you to: WE ARE NOT OPPOSED TO TRADITIONS, BUT IF THOSE TRADITIONS CONTRADICT, VIOLATE, AND/OR SUPERSEDE THE WORD OF GOD THEN WE AS CHRISTIANS MUST REJECT THOSE TRADITIONS. AND SOLA SCRIPTURA DOES NOT MEAN THE BIBLE ONLY, BUT THAT THE WORD OF GOD IS OUR FINAL AUTHORITY WHEN IT COMES TO GOD'S TRUTH.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 7

    Cheisa,

    I appreciate your perseverance. It is interesting how the lapsed Catholics are so hell bent on criticizing the Catholic Church. It reminds me of an elderly couple we knew who lived near my family when I was growing up. They apparently were both raised Catholic but converted as a young couple under the influence of a very charismatic Baptist minister who had also been raised Catholic but turned Baptist as an adult. The thing I noticed is that they were always so intensely negative. I don't remember them ever expressing joy in their faith to us but they were always attacking every other religion, especially the RC Church and priests in particular. They lived and died that way. But it is interesting; the minister that converted them asked for a Catholic priest on his death bed and received the last rites of the church. Ironic, huh?

    BTW, I live in a predominately Baptist state now, and have many Baptist dear friends and neighbors who are lovely, happy, positive and Godly people. Maybe this rancorous attitude on this blog is because they are former (lapsed) Catholics who have to keep justifying their leaving the faith of their upbringing. Oh, well. Keep up the good work. I won't participate as they don't pay attention to any point given and they just lob responses that basically don't really address the points in a logical fashion. I do find it ironic that they hate our Sacred Tradition but fail to realize that the “Bible Alone” belief is simply a rather recent (500 year old) tradition proposed by the “reformers”, second millennium Sadducees.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:41 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 2

    Cheisa,

    You said, "The Church uses the Word for guidance in all it does, but it also uses Tradition, the oral gospel and teachings of the Apostles and their disciples to determine what is Truth."

    I have a couple of points to make here: first, your church does not use the Word for all it does; most Christians who are familiar with the Scriptures and history recognize this. Second, you habitually speak of the apostles and their traditions without “naming” these traditions that they handed down. You failure to “name” these traditions is at this point comical; please give the book, chapter, and verse where the apostles gave us specific traditions.

    Next, it is interesting that you have to return to the Old Testament to highlight an object (the Ark of the Covenant) to justify the myriad of statues within your church; the Ark of the Covenant was not kissed incessantly or idolized. Give us an example in the New Testament where we can find prayer beads, statues, or other objects of worship/adoration.

    Finally, besides you taking John 6 out of context; your doctrine of transubstantiation was not proclaimed until 1215 and the adoration of the host was proclaimed in 1226 . . . In fact, the Catholic Encyclopedia I “Perpetual Adoration” states on page 153:

    “No trace of existence of any such extraliturgical cultus of the Blessed Sacrament can be found in the records of the early Church. It first appears in the later Middle Ages.”

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    The confessional

    ''Bless me Father, for I have sinned.
    I have been with a loose girl''.
    The priest asks, ''Is that you, little Joey Pagano?''
    ''Yes, Father, it is.''
    ''And who was the girl you were with?''
    ''I can't tell you, Father. I don't want to ruin her reputation''.
    "Well, Joey, I'm sure to find out her name sooner or later
    so you may as well tell me now. Was it Tina Minetti?''
    ''I cannot say.''
    ''Was it Teresa Mazzarelli?''
    ''I'll never tell.''
    ''Was it Nina Capelli?''
    ''I'm sorry, but I cannot name her.''
    ''Was it Cathy Piriano?''
    ''My lips are sealed..''
    ''Was it Rosa DiAngelo, then?''
    ''Please, Father, I cannot tell you.''
    The priest sighs in frustration.
    ''You're very tight lipped, and I admire that.
    But you''ve sinned and have to atone.
    You cannot be an altar boy now for 4 months.
    Now you go and behave yourself.'' Joey walks back to his pew,
    and his friend Franco slides over and whispers, ''What'd you get?''
    ''Four months vacation and five good leads.''

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    Yeah, it is clear to see that there is a huge difference between the true Church and the catholic church.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:04 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    Cheisa,

    I've never read any passage where Jesus or His disciples baptized children before they could speak. All the people that were baptized in the Bible were adults and it only happened AFTER they made the DECISION to follow God's teachings. Having carvings, paintings, statues or whatever is not the problem. The FACT that many Catholics DO kneel before and pray to these things is what the problem is.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:36 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    cheisa, plus, another problem is when you say that all other denominations must adhere to the traditions of the roman catholic church or they are not truly worshipping or following God.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:33 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    cheisa, were you speaking to the Church, God's Universal Church or the roman catholic church in your post to online and myself? But once again the issue is not that we are opposed to traditions, but only those traditions that contradict, violate, and/or supersede the Word of God!

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:30 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    cheisa, do airplanes in any way violate, contradict, or supersede the Word of God? No you say, well guess what God has no problems with airplanes and neither should any Bible believing Christian.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:06 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Yes, it's true...Joseph Smith uses the same excuse.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Year:"autumn of 1816" -J.H. Newman

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Continental: You reference John Henry Newman as "convert from Protestantism". As for his "inward conversion", by his own testimony (autobiography, Apologia Pro Vita Sua) he identifies it as having taken place at age 15 (1836) by the agency of The Reverend Walter Mayers, an Evangelical Anglican (as was John Newton of Olney Parish - "Amazing Grace") of Pembroke College,Oxford,of whose Ministry he identifies as
    "the human means of this beginning of divine faith in me
    was the effect of the books, which he put into my hands,
    all of the school of Calvin...".

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 9

    C'mon prophet. If I say, Airplanes fly in the sky", it's true isn't it? Now, find it in the Bible.

  • Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:34 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 8

    Believer and online,

    The Church has been given the power by Christ to bind and loose on earth and so it shall be in heaven. That tells me that what ever the Church establishes has God's blessing through God's authority.

    The Church uses the Word for guidance in all it does, but it also uses Tradition, the oral gospel and teachings of the Apostles and their disciples to determine what is Truth. Whewn you talk about the nature of the Eucharist, you can't simply look in the Bible. 1st and 2ns century Christians believed in Transubstantiation even if that term was coined much later. The same is true of Baptism and many other "false" teachings of the Church. They have been part of belief since the beginning. They are the beliefs of those who were closest to Christ and later, to the Apostles and then, later, to their disciples. It's a direct line of teaching that the first Christians followed adn the Church has remained true to. They are not "man made" no more than the Gospels and Epistles are "man made."

    As far as customs go, like the use of incense or statuary or mosaics, they are the trappings of faith, meant to glorify God. They are not idolatrous, sinful or pagan. I mean, think about it. God ordered the Ark of the Covenant to be decorated with golden cherubs. That's not idolatry. It's art to glorify God. These customs, too, are part of the Tradition that began with the first days of the Church. And you need to understand the meaning behind the rites, rituals and prctices to see that they are not anti-biblical or anti-christian. Simply saying it's not in the Bible doesn't mean it's good, bad or indifferent. It just means that some things come from the bible and some from the early Church.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:24 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 5

    question: how many catholics does it take to change a light bulb?

    answer: however many the pope says is traditionally acceptable.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:37 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 6

    cheisa, it appears you are the one who doesn't get it on this one. No one is ignoring the importance of traditions, but at the same time if those traditions in any way contradict, violate, and/or supersede the Word of God then they must be rejected by God's people and God's Universal Church. And as online posted not all traditions are a spiritual revelation or must always be adhered to by all believers or denominations.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:30 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 4

    Cheisa,

    You said, "The same holds true for revelation."

    Here is my point; these "unknown traditions" that you are trying to impose here as gospel truth cannot be labeled as "revelation" . . . If you wish to keep certain traditions that you feel are meaningful then by all means do so but to imply that tradition is divine “revelation” goes to far. . .

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:10 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    " IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE IN SCRIPTURE TO BE TRUE."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As I said earlier....that sounds like something Joseph Smith would say.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:25 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 8

    Prophet and online,

    You just don't get it, do you? IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE IN SCRIPTURE TO BE TRUE. Many things are true of Christianity in the first few centuries that didn't make it into the Bible - real Christian history and truth.

    There are writings from 1st and second and third century Christians, some of whom traveled with nd learned from the Apostles. Most of them were martyred as the first people to Christ their Savior. But, you ignore them and what they teach of the early Church, it's practices, beliefs and customs because it's not in the BIble. Too bad for you because you have half a story. Then you say things aren't true because they aren't in your half ofd the story.

    Well, some us have the rest of the chapters, so we understand where Catholic teaching comes from. You can't read the history of WW2 and skip the first three years. It gives you and incomplete picture and, therefore, an incomplete understanding. The same holds true for revelation.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:30 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 4

    tamna, as far as the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, that is the Church every true believer becomes a member of the moment they become a true believer, but the roman catholic church is simply one of many denominations a person can choose to become a part of. Peter was indeed a member of the first, but not a member of the latter.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:27 am Agree: 7   Disagree: 4

    continental, meanwhile true believers have the fulness of Christ the moment they became a child of God and we are filled to overflowing as we daily surrender to the Lordship of Christ and to the complete control of God's Holy Spirit!!

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:23 am Agree: 8   Disagree: 7

    tamna, would you prefer we use quotes from some pedophile priest in our responses to you!!!

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:37 am Agree: 10   Disagree: 6

    I too own a copy of Karl Keating's "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" . . . He promotes Catholic doctrine without giving Scriptural evidence for his claims; this is not surprising to see another Catholic making the same old claims without biblical support. For example, on page 166 Keating speaks of Catholics “meriting” heaven:

    “The Church teaches that only souls that are objectively good and objectively pleasing to God merit heaven, and such souls are ones filled with sanctifying grace.”

    Notice he begins with “The Church” instead of “God’s Word” says . . . Once again we see Catholics contradicting themselves; they say we do not merit heaven but this is in fact their belief as Keating demonstrates in his book.

    Keating’s main focus in his book is to identify the anti-Catholic groups instead highlighting the Protestantism’s view on Catholic doctrine. I too recommend his book; it is a good reference for comparing Catholic doctrine with God’s Word . . .

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:35 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 11

    Tamna,

    Your post was timely for me. Last night as I logged off the computer, I decided to do one more post in the morning as a sign off because it is obvious that when dealing with "Bart Brewer" followers (if you don't know him, read Karl Keating's excellent book "Catholicism and Fundametalism" which responded to B.B.'s attacks on the Catholic Church back in the eighties) you indeed end up with the situation that you describe, "dog-chasing-tail". I always pray for those who obviously love the Lord but are so skewed in their understanding because of all the many different approaches of looking at scripture based on their ill informed interpreting....all these mini-popes, each with a different take on the meaning of passages, taken out of context.

    I will close with a quote from The Donut Man: "The Eucharist is the source and summit of the Catholic Faith. We begin with the covenant of creation and then the greatest covenant of all, the Eucharist."

    Aren't we Catholics blessed? We not only have the fullness of truth, all seven Sacraments inclucing the Eucharist (whereby we are actually receive Jesus physically as well as spiritually), the Pope, but The Donut Man as well ;-)))

    The Lord be with you all.

  • Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:51 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 12

    I usually refrain from participating in dog-chasing-tail conversations like what is going on here, but I thought I'd comment on something:

    "Yavoh" asked another poster:

    "Please give chapter and verse in verbaitum words stating that anyone should be prayed to besides the FATHER and Jesus Christ. Chapter & verse where Peter started the CATHOLIC church, calling it the catholic church of course, and also BIBLICAL support for prayer to saints, to mary, and all the other extra biblical nonsense that goes on in the catholic mass.Oh, and from SCRIPTURE,not some book written in the delerium of some pope that has been otherwise occupied with women or perhaps little boys."

    I'm sure the person you asked will answer just as soon as YOU can provide "verbatim" chapter and verse with the word "trinity" or maybe "rapture" or heck, how about "abortion" in it, and please, just use SCRIPTURE, and not some sermon from some meth smoking adulterous preacher from a mega-church that likes to proposition homosexual hookers.

    Be careful about throwing rocks Yavoh, they can end up coming right back at you.

    OK, y'all can get back to chasing your tails now.

    PAX

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:29 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 5

    DITL, let's not forget Tony Blair who claims to be a roman catholic. They bragged on it a first, but then he shared what he really believes and you don't hear much about his conversion anymore. But once again just because a person is a Protestant does not prove they are a genuine believer!

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:22 pm Agree: 13   Disagree: 4

    Continental said, “I repeat: We don't "resacrifice" Jesus at Mass.”

    Really? Pope Pius XI said in Ad Catholics Sacerdotii (1935) described the mass as being in itself “a real sacrifice . . . which has a real efficacy” and Pius XII in Mediator Dei (1947) affirmed the same when he said, “truly and properly the offering of a sacrifice” (para. 72) and continue on by saying, “on our alters he [Christ] offers himself daily for our redemption” (para. 77). I am not surprised by those who constantly deny what your history affirms; this is just another example of Catholics contradicting themselves.


    “You really do not want to play that game.”

    To you this might be a game but I assure you that it is not; I am not surprised to hear of some returning back to Rome, in fact it is to be expected. It is as the scriptures have foretold . . . “. . . she made all nations drunk with the wine of her fornication” (Revelation 17:2).

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:47 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 4

    >>".... in the past twenty years more than a thousand Protestant Clergy have entered the Catholic Church in America.">>

    "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." (1 Tim 4:1-3)

    coincidence?

    What's with all the name dropping, continental? Tom Cruise and John Travolta are Scientologists, they seems like pretty smart guys, let's follow them? I don't get your point here; men follow God; they should never follow man.
    Why don't you know that?

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:36 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 4

    continental, you can repeat it all you want, but if you believe in the transubstantiation then you do indeed resacrifice Christ every time you observe the eucharist.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:35 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 3

    continental, and what denominations did those people come from and my sense is many if not most were not genuinely born-again believers.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:32 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 3

    continental, having served mass with Bishop Fulton J. Sheen when he became the Bishop of the Rochester Diocese I can say he was a different breed of roman catholic and some say there was reason to believe he was genuinely a born again believer. Which some believe got him in trouble and kept him from rising higher in the hiearchy of the roman catholic church. But here's your problem most of us sharing our opposition to the roman catholic church are all former roman catholics who have been on the inside. As for Bishop Sheen, when he came to St. Andrew's Seminary to celebrate mass, I went to kiss his and he put me in a headlock and bearhug and would not let me kiss his ring.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:27 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 2

    continental, the apostles were primarily uneducated men much like the truck driver you mention. But they went right to the Source, Christ Himself, as any believer can do as a result of being indwelt by God's Holy Spirit the moment they are saved.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:23 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 4

    cheisa, but those traditions they taught were based on the truths taught in the Word of God, in other words they did no violate, contradict, or supersede the Word of God and in fact many of them can be found in the Word of God.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:20 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 9

    [[Online4Him »

    The Lord’s Supper:
    “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:10-12).
    Notice the above verse; it uses the singular word “offering” NOT offerings . . . It also says that Jesus Christ had offered "one" sacrifice for sins and it was done “once for all.” ]]



    I repeat: We don't "resacrifice" Jesus at Mass. God is timeless. We are limited creatures who live in the structure of time. The Sacrifice of the Mass as we have it offered by our priests is a participation in the one Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. That Sacrifice fills all time. So there is no resacrifice. The other five Sacraments are indeed established by Jesus. Sorry you cannot discern that.
    Therefore we are participating in the ONCE for all sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary.



    [[Online4Him Re: Bart Brewer ... Tony Coffey...]]

    You really do not want to play that game. Just in the past twenty years more than a thousand Protestant Clergy have entered the Catholic Church in America. My previous pastor of two years ago is a former Protestant who was going to school to become a music minister when he converted. And the Catholic pastor at the Catholic church in the next town is a former Protestant. But I will name six just off the top of my head who have converted out of the more than a thousand:

    Scott Hahn

    Marcus Grodi

    Ken Hensley

    Richard J. Newhaus

    David Currie

    Stephen Ray

    and for added flair I will mention the Coup de grace...

    Rob Evans (AKA The Donut Man)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;-)

    He may not be a clergyman but he sure is a wonderful faith filled man who loves the Church.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 5

    Cheisa and other devout cathoholics,
    Please give chapter and verse in verbaitum words stating that anyone should be prayed to besides the FATHER and Jesus Christ. Chapter & verse where Peter started the CATHOLIC church, calling it the catholic church of course, and also BIBLICAL support for prayer to saints, to mary, and all the other extra biblical nonsense that goes on in the catholic mass.Oh, and from SCRIPTURE,not some book written in the delerium of some pope that has been otherwise occupied with women or perhaps little boys.
    Not interested in anything but the Holy Bible, BTW. Also give BIBLICAL justification to all the statuary that fill your churches, homes, cars, and lawns....might be a little tuff in light of the Commandments of GOD speaking exactly OPPOSITE to this practice............

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 8   Disagree: 4

    It seems there is but one conclusion (and I wouldn't have it any other way) and that is that only the Lord can open the eyes and hearts of those people who have been brainwashed by the catholic church. Those of you who are recovering cathaholics have had this blessing, those of you who are dyedin-the-wool, give me Mary or give me death, well, you just haven't had a true salvation experience with Jesus Christ. There is a cast difference between a devout catholic and a devout Christian.....a huge chasim that can only be crossed once you have Jesus as your only Lord, guide and Savior. Mary cannot save you. the catholic church cannot save you, and a blue million "hail Marys" cannot save you. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can save you. Mary did not die for your sins. Mary did not resurrect from the dead, and Mary is not the one at the Right Hand of the Father awaiting God's command to "go get your people". Mary is blessed among women. PERIOD. She was saved through the sacrifice of Jesus the same way as anyone who is saved. the pope can have people bowing and scraping before him , kissing big ring or his big toe till hell freezes over. He has already received his reward.It's like the pharasees who made a big production of their offerings, making sure everyone saw that they were giving lots of coins, or the pharasee standing on the street corner praying for all to see & hear. They received their reward from those who wittnessed their behavior. GOD, however, rewards the secret prayers of a penentant heart, He honours those who give in secret, never letting their left hand know what their right hand is doing, helping those in need without drawing attention to themselves, Great is their reward in heaven. Basically BEING Jesus to someone. So, say your Hail Marys, crawl up umpteen thousand steps on your knees till they bleed, put gravel in your shoes, or needles in your clothing, wash your underwear in fiberglass!!! Your physical pain will not save you, only make you miserable. Jesus did not call you to torture yourself, but simply to believe in HIM alone.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:30 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    Continental,

    "Oh really? I thought you claim to be a Bible Christian. Actually it was Paul, you know the apostle to the gentiles, who called Jesus that."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I am a Bible Christian. Paul did call Jesus the Great High Priest. It's all the garbage that the RCC added onto the end of that that makes it a cult.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:50 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 4

    ABout the Catholic Eucharistic Rites... Here is the extension of your logic. The bread and wine are the actual blood and body of Christ...lets accept your belief for a moment.... Here is what you are actually saying:

    1. The law prohibits the consuming of human flesh.
    2. Jesus fulfilled all the law
    3. God in becoming incarnate gave up his omnipresence in CHrist
    4. Meaning Christ could not be in 2 places at once
    5. At the Lords SUpper Jesus ate his own flesh and drank his own blood in violation of the OT Law
    6. Jesus was in 2 places at once...

  • mike »
    Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:27 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    to cheisa

    we are trying to tell the good news of god and what god did he use people in his plan of salvation. but don't make those people god or another way to salvation. it is dangerous to accept other means of salvation like indulgences, mary purgatory etc.

  • mike »
    Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:20 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    to cheisa

    specific teachings that are false is making mary sinless, nearly equal to god, they call her mother of god, rosary, purgatory, indulgences, works for salvation, having a pope, successions of the pope, idols of the saints, praying to saints, chastity of the priest. these are the specific teachings of the RCC

    and why is it called ROMAN catholic church? the roman empire of constantine clothed with christianity?


    finally, why does the RCC teach transubstantiation. the literal turning of body & blood of christ in the holy eucharist.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:14 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 8

    [[Prophet »
    "Christ is the Great High Priest and he ordained the Apostles himself. They have continued this line by the laying on of hands. Is the word priest actually used? Maybe not. But the word Trinity isn't in the Bible and do you deny the Trinity?"
    "Sounds like something Joseph Smith would say."]]

    Oh really? I thought you claim to be a Bible Christian. Actually it was Paul, you know the apostle to the gentiles, who called Jesus that.

    Hebrews 4:14
    Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

    BTW Bishop Fulton J. Sheen said (and I paraphrase): There are millions of people who hate what they perceive the Catholic Church to be. But there are only very few who hate the Catholic Church who have true knowledge and understanding of her and her truths.

    Ya'll have your knickers in a wad about stuff that isn't even true about our faith. What you know, you only half know at the very best. And the above is just a small part of all the errors I have seen in this blog. I have work to do and don't have time to corret it all. I wish I did.

    But I keep praying for you.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:05 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    Continental,

    There is really no need for name dropping here but since you began with Newman . . . Here is what Bartholomew F. Brewer a priest from the Carmelite Order who converted to the true gospel of Jesus Christ said in his book –Pilgrimage from Rome:

    “I was trying with all my strength to earn my salvation. Yet the more I tried the less certain I became.”

    &

    Tony Coffey, another priest who converted to the true gospel of Jesus Christ said in his book – Once a Catholic:

    “The traditions that have been taken on board over the centuries can be discarded in favor of the full truth contained in the inspired Scriptures.”

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:00 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    Continental,

    The problem with Catholic theology is that they make up “traditions” as they go without any biblical support for them . . .


    The Lord’s Supper:

    “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:10-12).

    Notice the above verse; it uses the singular word “offering” NOT offerings . . . It also says that Jesus Christ had offered "one" sacrifice for sins and it was done “once for all.”


    “Who needeth NOT DAILY, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself” (Hebrews 7:25).

    This verse here is self explanatory; our High Priest Jesus Christ needeth NOT DAILY to offer himself as those high priests did in the Old Testament.


    Priesthood:


    The only priesthood recorded in the New Testament is the priesthood of all believers . . .

    “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 2:5).

    “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light” (1 Peter 2:9).

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:34 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 3

    Priests are not God-ordained. We (believers) are His royal priesthood. Therein lies the true office of a priest.

  • Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 1

    "Christ is the Great High Priest and he ordained the Apostles himself. They have continued this line by the laying on of hands. Is the word priest actually used? Maybe not. But the word Trinity isn't in the Bible and do you deny the Trinity?"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

    Sounds like something Joseph Smith would say.

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