Pastors to Proclaim Jesus Loves Gays at Pride Fest

believer »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, I truly appreciate the civility of your last post, thanks for toning it down!!

believer »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, and as I said earlier because sin is a result of those He created then yes He ultimately is responsible for sin. But being ultimately responsible by no means says that God created sin or that God messed up His creation. God desired a special form of creation that would fellowship with Him and He with them. For fellowship to be real and genuine requires that all parties involved have a choice in the matter and the same is true with genuine love. To do this God had to create us with a free will, which meant that Adam and Eve could choose to live for God or live for self and unfortunately when they were tempted by satan they chose to live for self and they sinned against God and sin entered God's creation.

believer »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, considering you're doing your best and failing by the way to disprove God clearly shows you can't deny the fact that God does indeed exist. But keep trying since that is the very thing God has used in many peoples lives such as Lee Strobel to bring them to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

salvage »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>sal, reality is you haven't got a clue when it comes to God and God's Word, so please don't even begin to think you know anything about Him or His Word

You're quite right because taking it out of its context and into the real world it makes no sense but to those who carefully suspend disbelief.

But what does that have to do with my point that your god made sin? I've explained to you several times why I maintain this point of view and you have yet to address it.

Your god made creation, creation contains sin therefore your god made sin, perhaps not directly but certainly by his actions.

So tell me, please, what I'm not understanding here.

>As God's Word clearly says a fool has said in his heart there is no God!

Yes, but one can't help but notice that your god does an amazing impression of a being who doesn't exist so I'm not sure if you can call someone a fool for falling for it.

believer »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

sal, reality is you haven't got a clue when it comes to God and God's Word, so please don't even begin to think you know anything about Him or His Word. As God's Word clearly says a fool has said in his heart there is no God!

salvage »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>You claim to be an atheist and then you claim to understand God and God's ways better than those who do believe in Him when you don't believe this God even exists.

I'm talking about your beliefs and pointing out the illogical nature using these tenants of those beliefs. I'm not an atheist because it's some sort of choice, I'm an atheist because gods never make any sense.

As unreal things often do.

For instance you're saying that your god is perfect and holy etc. etc. yet he created sin when he created human beings.

Now I know your god didn't make people or anything but I'm simply showing one of the many dichotomies in your beliefs. It would of course be much more effective if you figured them out for yourself.

So no I'm only saying stuff like "your god did such and such" to illustrate my points, I don't think your god did anything anywhere, the same as every other god.

>Here's a clue for you, a person who never existed has no views on issues!!

Certainly true, here's a clue for you, a god wouldn't sacrifice himself to himself, nor would a god flood a planet using an ark to save the animals, nor would a god say that he made a universe in six days but then make it 14.5 billion years old. A god would say that he made people in one day and then leave overhwhelming evidence that he didn't make people at all and if he did it took a something like 3.5 billion years to do so. A god wouldn't make a universe so hostile to life favoring instead hydrogen and black holes. A god wouldn't take an interest in just one sliver of humanity in one geological location forsaking the rest.

A god would demand burnt sacrifices, praise and mindless devotion only if said god were egotistical to the point of insanity.

And so on.

See these are all descriptions of your god provided by your religion and what I do is reflect them back to you in their basic form showing them to be weird and nonsensical and thus unbelievable.

But again, explain how I'm wrong.

believer »

Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, do you realize how foolish you make yourself look. You claim to be an atheist and then you claim to understand God and God's ways better than those who do believe in Him when you don't believe this God even exists. It would be like saying you don't believe Abraham Lincoln ever existed and then go on to explain his views on slavery!! Here's a clue for you, a person who never existed has no views on issues!!

salvage »

Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

sal, in God's original creation sin did not exist, therefore God did not create sin!

Yes, you keep saying that but you are wrong, obviously the potential for sin was created and that potential lead to it actually existing.

It's like this, if I walked into your house and started covering everything with gasoline and then your turned on a TV or did something else to cause a spark and the whole place went up in flames who would be to blame? Well strictly speaking you would be as I didn't set the fire but in reality the fault and arson charges would be mine.

Your god made Adam and Eve correct? He made the tree with the fruit of knowledge correct? He put the two together and for some never explained reason he suddenly lost his omniscience for the time it took for a talking snake to sneak into the garden and mess up his perfect creation.

Again and I do wish you'd address my specific points rather than repeating what I'm saying is obviously wrong.

Did your god create creation? If he did he created the conditions for sin to exist so it's still his fault.

The only options are he did it on purpose or he did it by accident but what can't be up for debate is that he didn't do it because obviously it exists in your god's creation.

believer »

Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, if the only reason you came here was to take cheap shots at God and Christianity why didn't you just say so. I honestly thought you were here for a serious discussion, but it is apparent you are not. So go ahead take your cheap shots and just don't let the door hit you on the way out!

believer »

Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

sal, in God's original creation sin did not exist, therefore God did not create sin!

salvage »

Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

So the only rebuttal is to flag my posts as "inappropriate"?

And that's why it's so easy to be an atheist, the slightest questioning of your religion reveals it for the delusion it is. If it were real y'all would have answers.

salvage »

Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>salvage, God did not create sin, but rather He created man with the ability to choose to sin!

Did you see what you did there? I made several points to support my main one; your mythology teaches that your god made the universe, the universe contains sin therefore your god created sin. Rather than acknowledge or debate that point you skip over it and restate your original opinion.

If there wasn’t such a thing as sin man couldn’t have chosen it since there is such a thing your god must have made it. Can you please explain how I am wrong here, how does something exist that your god did not make.

>Secondly the forgiveness for our sins required a perfect sacrifice since God is a perfect God and only Jesus Christ qualified to be that sacrifice.

Another point skipped. Your god is all powerful yes or no? If he is then he doesn’t require anything to do anything. He needs no process; process are mortal things designed to overcome limitations . Furthermore and once again, your god’s fault that things are as they are so my abstraction of your religion’s core dogma stands; your god sacrificed himself to himself so he would forgive his creation for being exactly as he made it.

And there was no sacrifice as Jesus didn’t actually die, he had one bad day, a three day nap to recover and then flew off to heaven to run the universe. For one bad day I’d do all that, a bad day I might add that millions suffered at the hands of the Romans. Heck crucifixion isn’t even the worst the Romans could do.

>And thirdly, allowing for the death penalty of those caught in homosexual sin does not make it mandatory. And that was a part of the Old Covenant which is no longer relevant today, since we are now under the New Covenant.

So your god made a mistake? See that’s the other flaw in your religion; your god inerrant word being rather errant. Why didn’t he do all this Jesus business back then? Why did he wait some 6,000 years for this wonderful plan to unfurl? New Covenant implies that there was something wrong with the old one but that’s impossible right? The Bible is as perfect as your god right? And what does the New Covenant say about gays? Not very positive is it? Isn’t your god going to throw the gays into Hell for being gay? So what does it matter if they’re killed now? Your just rushing them off to your god’s perfect holy judgment where they’ll get exactly what they deserve right?

Have you noticed that my posts are rather longer than yours? How I make my points and then support them? How I counter what you say rather than just repeating my original points as if you said nothing? Why don’t you give that a try? Who knows? You might teach me something or learn something yourself.

believer »

Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, God did not create sin, but rather He created man with the ability to choose to sin! Secondly the forgiveness for our sins required a perfect sacrifice since God is a perfect God and only Jesus Christ qualified to be that sacrifice. And thirdly, allowing for the death penalty of those caught in homosexual sin does not make it mandatory. And that was a part of the Old Covenant which is no longer relevant today, since we are now under the New Covenant.

salvage »

Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Flagged as inappropriate. show > We have responded to ALL of his questions. He just doesn't like the answers; that's all. Um no, you haven’t the fact that your posts are rather short and repetitive makes that pretty clear. >And for all his pseudo-intellectualism, he can't spell. Oh dear, more passive-aggressive, tell me where is my intellect being pseudo? > and which of your false concepts of God have we not responded to? Well all of them really, I will recap some give you another change to ignore them: 1) Your god created sin, you deny this but you say he created the universe, the universe contains sin therefore your god created sin. Now you can say he didn’t do it directly but at the very least he created the mechanism for its creation. Furthermore as he is omnipotent and omniscient he must have know exactly what he was doing at every step of the way. He would have known that his actions would lead to sin. Explain how I’m wrong. 2) Your god sacrificed himself to himself so he wouldn’t be wrathful to the creation that he created. How does that make any sense at all? Why would a god need a process to do anything? What good did Jesus do? Why did nothing change after his life and kinda death? Also how is it a sacrifice if Jesus came back to life? And what’s the point of coming back from the dead if all he did was disappear like a dead person would? 3) The Bible calls for the death penalty for gays, I assume you don’t agree with this yet it’s the world of / inspired by your god. How can you pick and choose what parts of the Bible you follow? By letting practicing homosexuals live aren’t you defying your god’s will? hide

believer »

Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

blacksho, I hear you and agree with you 100%!

Blacksho89 »

Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Believer: We have responded to ALL of his questions. He just doesn't like the answers; that's all.

And for all his pseudo-intellectualism, he can't spell.

believer »

Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, and which of your false concepts of God have we not responded to?

believer »

Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

salvage, just look to the Cross of Christ and Christianity makes all the sense in the world!!

salvage »

Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:34 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

>salvage, your lack of belief is motivational, not intellectual.

Really? What is my motivation in not believing in your god? How about people who are Jewish? Do they have the same motivation for not believing in your god as I do? Or Muslims? What is there motivation?

On the other hand your motivation is pretty obvious; you want your god to be real because of all the rewards your belief will reap in the afterlife. Isn't it interesting that your god has to bribe devotion from his creation?

As for intellectual I'm not sure if that's right considering I apply both critical thinking and the scientific method to religion to produce my opinions. Whereas you depend on ancient mythology for yours. Are you sure you're being intellectual about it?

Blacksho89 »

Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, your lack of belief is motivational, not intellectual. That is, you have decided already that there is no God; and refuse to question your beliefs, as this might upset your pre-determined thesis. We can't help you with this. It's all up to you, my friend. So take your belligerence to the grave with you. It helps you not on this world.

salvage »

Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

>right now they have you completely snowed into believing there is no God and there is no Jesus Christ

I've listed many of the reasons why I don't believe in your gods right here and you haven't been able / bothered to point out where I'm wrong with any counterpoints so I would then have to assume you are an agent of those demons because you are reinforcing my opinion that religion is a grand delusion with your talk of demons.

Show me how your gods make any sense and I'll consider their veracity accordingly but until then I'm afraid Jesus is as real as Apollo, Isis and the Rainbow Serpent.

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, Jesus Christ does indeed exist and so do demons and right now they have you completely snowed into believing there is no God and there is no Jesus Christ and of course that they don't exist either!!

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, reality is all people will die physically barring the Second Coming of Christ, so it does not matter if its by war, disease, accident, or old age all of us will die a physical death. The only thing we can choose is where we will spend eternity. God made no mistakes and out of His desire to have a genuine and personal relationship with us He had to create us with a free will and because of that when Adam and Eve were tempted by satan they bought the lie and bit the fruit and at that point sin and all its consequences entered the world and separated us from God. And only because God still desired a personal relationship with us, He chose to send His Son, Jesus Christ to come to this earth and pay a price that only He could pay by dying on the Cross so that if we would repent of our sin and turn to God by putting our complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone we could have that relationship, eternal life, and a home in heaven with God for all eternity after we die. God did not want a bunch of robots, but rather God wants individuals who genuinely love Him and desire to have a personal relationship with Him as He desires to have with them, but He will not force any one to enter into that relationship. But as I said earlier with every choice we make or don't make there are both positive and negative consequences!

salvage »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

>it was never God's plan for physical healing to be needed in the first place.

So... your god made a mistake? See no matter how thin you slice it it’s your entire god’s fault. He made Adam and Eve (not really, just for the sake of argument to be clear) and he’s all knowing and all powerful right? So he would have to know exactly what they would do in any given situation.

See the only two options are your god cannot predict cause and effect (i.e. putting a fruit you don’t want eaten in front of two beings likely to eat it after being nudged by a talking snake) or he set Adam and Eve up to fail, either way, by your own religious dogma and canon sin is most certainly your god’s creation.

> We are reaping the consequences of our sin and disease and death are two of them.

Now that’s interesting be because we have much less disease and death now than back in Jesus’ day and it’s only been in the last 300 years or so that’s happened. That’s when science began to develop a method for finding real truths and religion began its decline. In the last fifty years we’ve had medical breakthroughs that have been nothing short of miraculous and religion’s entropy has picked up even more momentum.

How many churches closed worldwide last year? Do you know? It’s record breaking.

It seems that the further away from your god we go the longer healthier lives we live.

Why is that? Shouldn’t it be the exact opposite? Or is your god setting us up for another fall?

>But God did not purposely create sin nor has God ever sinned.

Really? So it was an mishap, your god had an accident? What an odd thing to happen to a god.

And never sinned? Didn’t he have the babies of Egyptians killed in their cribs for the crimes of their parent’s doctorial government? You ever wonder why our god sent the Angle of “Death” to do that but not the Angle of “Pick up all the Jews and carry them to Israel?”

I’d say there are quite a few sins there.

>salvage, I did not say that some disease is indeed as result of demon possession and in fact some is.

Awesome. Did you feel that? That was the cringing of moderate theists reading this.

And to them I say you can’t believe in Jesus if you don’t believe that there are malevolent spirits floating around the world hurting people with black magic. They are part and parcel of the same belief system and cannot be separated. If Jesus is real than so are demons and that is of course, plain silly.

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, people being healed has been around for a long time, but the reason some of the cures we have today took so long is that it was never God's plan for physical healing to be needed in the first place. But because of the sin of Adam and Eve and mankind since we have these diseases since sin wreaked havoc on God's creation at all levels of creation to include our physical well being. The lack of speed in developing the cures is a result of sin as well and the need for knowledge and technology to advance to the point to be able to discover and develop these cures. We are reaping the consequences of our sin and disease and death are two of them.

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, God did not create sin although since He did create the demons as angels originally and then they rebelled/sinned against God and although He did create mankind with a free will and Adam and Eve chose to sin He is ultimately responsible for the existence of sin because His creation did indeed bring it into existence. But God did not purposely create sin nor has God ever sinned.

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, I did not say that some disease is indeed as result of demon possession and in fact some is. But no reputable Christian doctor would diagnose a person as being demon possessed or their sickness being from demons until he has ruled out all other options and remedies and then consulted with someone who has spiritual warfare experience that the possibility does indeed exist. And considering that God has always existed so has His ability to heal us from all forms of disease, be it physical, mental, or spiritual and yes ultimately all true healing comes from God.

salvage »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>Christ did not blame all disease on the demons,

Mark 1:29-34 (NASB) And immediately after they had come out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon's mother-in-law was lying sick with a fever; and immediately they spoke to Him about her. 31 And He came to her and raised her up, taking her by the hand, and the fever left her, and she waited on them. 32 And when evening had come, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city had gathered at the door. 34 And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.

Now then, do you think that Simon’s mother-in-law and the other were sick because of a bacterial or viral infection or because they were possessed by demons? Your Jesus seemed to be of the demon opinion and I would assume you wouldn’t argue with him?
Again, would you go to a doctor who said your tummy ache was the result of a demon living inside of you and that if everyone prays really hard it’ll go away?

>but He does blame all disease as a consequence of the sins of mankind.

Weird, from what I understand disease has no connection to any metaphysical systems of morality and since as I’ve already shown your god created sin (he created everything yes? Sin is part of everything yes?) your god is blaming us for his mistakes.

Hardly the behavior one would expect from divinity.

salvage »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:12 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

> but that does not negate the fact that all healing comes from God either.

Really? Well howcum there’s been some 2,000 years of Christianity and before that another 8,000 years of other god worship but it’s been only in the last 300 years or so that real healing has happened? I assume your god inspired all those scientist and doctors? Why did he wait so long? Why didn’t Jesus cure polio or figure or explain pasteurization, inoculation and all the other stuff that we take for granted these days?

>salvage, typical secular rhetoric,

Sure, but I can’t help but notice no one’s actually disputing the details of what I say.

>but the reality is that you indeed are without excuse

As I’ve explained and you have not refuted your religion makes no sense at all so I have a very valid excuse.

> you can't blame God since He has done all that can and could be done to save you
…

Really? Christian doctrine is the best your god can do? A bizarre plan based on him sacrificing himself to himself is your god’s best effort to reach me?

Nintendo’s marketing department does a better job communicating than your god.

> cheap shots you take towards God, His Church, and/or His inerrant Word!!

What cheap shots have I made? See you’re not talking about anything specific here, you just seem annoyed that I have questions that you can’t answer.

Oh and are you sure your god' word is "inerrant"? I got tons of examples showing that it really isn't.

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:24 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, Christ did not blame all disease on the demons, but He does blame all disease as a consequence of the sins of mankind. It may not be ones personal sin that causes one to be sick but it is indeed the result of sin. That does not mean we should not seek out medical help or take precautions that may indeed keep us from becoming sick, but that does not negate the fact that all healing comes from God either.

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salvage, typical secular rhetoric, but the reality is that you indeed are without excuse and if you die in your present spiritual condition you will indeed be eternally separated from God! And it is no ones fault but your own, you can't blame God since He has done all that can and could be done to save you and you are willfully choosing to reject God's plan of salvation for your life. The fault will indeed rest totally with you regardless of how many cheap shots you take towards God, His Church, and/or His inerrant Word!!

salvage »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>salvage, to be honest I cannot answer with all certainty what will happen to those who do not have the opportunity to hear God's plan of salvation,

No? Jesus makes it pretty clear in John 15:2:

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Perhaps it’s elseware but I don’t see any loopholes for circumstantial ignorance.

Your god’s system of redemption all but guarantees that the majority of humanity has been and will be thrown into a lake of fire for a forever of teeth gnashing.

Doesn’t seem like a very good way of doing things to me.

>but you are without excuse since you not only know what you need to do, you also know the consequences that come with either choice you make.

Simply not true, I have an excellent excuse; your religion makes no sense. I’ve provided many examples of this, the above being one of the biggest. So since your beliefs make no sense I have little choice but to reject them.

>But I also know God's Word says He will reveal Himself to anyone who truly seeks Him

Isn’t that another way of saying that your god is real to people who think he’s real? That’s pretty much a textbook definition of delusion. And isn’t that rather pointless “preaching to the choir”? If your god really wants my worship (and why a god would want such a thing is another mystery) why doesn’t he make his existence clear? I’m not so arrogant to suggest that he should float down from the clouds and touch my finger or anything dramatic but rather why don’t we see any god in nature? Why does the Bible offer no insight into creation? Genesis got how the world was actually made all wrong; there is nothing in the Bible that exceeds the knowledge of the era it was made in.

salvage »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

Jesus blamed demons for illness, tell me would you go to a doctor that blamed your sickness on a devil? Why didn’t Jesus tell people that sickness is really caused by microbes and that if they washed their hands they’d be healthier? Isn’t it weird that Jesus, the son of your god / your god didn’t know anything more than the people of that time?

>and I am a firm believer and supporter of international mission work to ensure as many as possible will hear God's plan of salvation!

Ah yes, the reasoning behind so much pain and misery. See the Inquisitions, the crusades, countless wars and the cultural genocide of indigenous peoples from Australia to the Americas were driven by your god’s plan.

The thinking went like this:

If a person doesn’t accept Jesus as their personal savior our god will throw them in Hell when they die so we can never go too far in saving that person from Hell. So invasion, torture, the kidnapping of children from their families to be raised as Christians was the result.

I know, I know, those weren't true Christians, only people who believe and do as you are true Christians and you'd never do those horrible things.

But wait, not even to save people from Hell? isn't that worse than anything that happens on Earth?

believer »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

blacksho, I tend to agree strongly with you that God will indeed provide someone or a means by which a true seeker will discover His plan of salvation!

Jehovahnissi »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

JOHN 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me."

The reference Jesus has in mind is the prophet Isaiah.

ISA 54:13 All your sons will be taught by the LORD, and great will be your children's peace.

This by the way, helps to define what our Lord means by drawing men unto Himself in verse 44. In other words, part of the process of this drawing must include teaching people who He is and what He requires of mankind in the way of faith in His Messiah. This is what the word of God does.

But the drawing must go beyond that to include a spiritual awakening,
God must give us spiritual eyes as His Spirit opens them to the truth and enables us to reach out to the One who gives life, who is Christ. And this is what Jesus is pointing out in verse 45...

TIT 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Our salvation is Spirit planned in the heavenly’s among the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from before the creation of the world. Our salvation is Spirit accomplished through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And we receive this spiritual life through the Spirit renewing the lives of individuals as He gives us a rebirth from above.

Salvation is of the Lord, and we need to be thankful, humble and useful as we love and obey our Lord taking this message of hope to a dying world. Jesus saves. He gives life freely to " all who repent and embrace Him alone by faith"


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.http://www.doubleedgedsword.org/layout/inside.php?pgID=397

Jehovahnissi »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:46 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have (A) said to you, that no one can come to Me unless (B)it has been granted him from the Father."


Matthew 13:11
11Jesus answered them, "(A)To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

John 3:27
27John answered and said, "(A)A man can receive nothing unless it (B)has been given him from heaven
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

......it is grace alone that makes persons to differ in our response to the gospel; whether we believe it, or reject it. And to drive this point home we will show how Jesus insists that UNLESS God grants His invincible grace no one would ever believe the gospel ... yet ALL persons to whom he grants this same grace will believe unto eternal life.



A Biblical Reflection on John 6:37 & 65
======================================================
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2005/11/the_jesus_syllogism.php

Blacksho89 »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

salavage, you are arrogant and a know it all. You need to run for political office instead of wasting your time here. Good luck in your future endeavors!

Blacksho89 »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:21 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

believer: I think that anyone who is interested in the Truth will be given an evangelist to teach them. See Acts, the account of Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch.

believer »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

salvage, to be honest I cannot answer with all certainty what will happen to those who do not have the opportunity to hear God's plan of salvation, but you are without excuse since you not only know what you need to do, you also know the consequences that come with either choice you make. But I also know God's Word says He will reveal Himself to anyone who truly seeks Him and I am a firm believer and supporter of international mission work to ensure as many as possible will hear God's plan of salvation!

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

I "choose" not to believe in your god the same way I "choose" not to believe in Zeus, Odin and Xt'Tapalatakettle that is there is no evidence for their existence and much evidence to suggest that all gods are the stuff of myth and fantasy.

Take your Jesus for instance, do you know there is nothing original about his story? That his story has all the elements and hallmarks of many common myths from that era? Do you know that there is next to no evidence that Jesus even existed? It's strange that it took some 30 years after the fact for someone to write stuff down. The Bible suggests that Jesus made a big deal in Jerusalem but all the sources where one would expect corroborating evidence are curiously silent. You'd think a man coming back from the dead would make a bigger splash. Perhaps your god didn't want the world to know?

Yet he did, another odd contradiction.

And that's why being an atheist is very easy, your religion, like all the others, doesn't make any sense when you look at it with smidgen of critical thinking.

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>He will not force His salvation on anyone and at the same time He will not remove the consequences of that decision!

Yes, I know, the mob works the same way, do as they say and no one gets hurt.

The depth of the religious delusion is whats so fascinating, you have a god that has a system that guarantees that the majority of humanity is condemned to torture for eternity because they were born in the wrong time and or place.

For instance how does a North Korean avoid Hell? Because of a situation beyond their control they have no idea of your religion's rituals and practices so they will never be "saved".

How cruel your god is to create a totalitarian dictorship that guarentees misery both in this life and the after!

How fortunate for you that yours is the right religion, what if you had been born to the Jewish couple down the street? And the poor Jews, once again forces beyond their control conspire against them.

Do you see the hideous flaw in your god's system? Probably not because you will never suffer from it.

Or perhaps your god chose you before you were born to be Christian? Like he sends some souls to the right part of America to be born into the culture that pleases him and he send other souls to China to be commies and then tortured for eternity afterwords. I wonder what criteria he uses to decide which souls go where?

What a weird idea of free choice.

believer »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:23 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

salvage, if you choose to not believe in God that is indeed your choice, but like every choice we make there are indeed consequences, some postive, some negative, or a combination of both. God's Word clearly shares the consequences of rejecting Jesus Christ and it appears you are well aware of them. So if you choose to reject Christ you are indeed without excuse and totally responsible for the consequences you receive!! God stands ready, willing, and able to save you, but He will not force His salvation on anyone and at the same time He will not remove the consequences of that decision!

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>Wrong. It is not beyond His control. He's give everyone a free will to do as they wish.

A curious sort of “free will” isn’t it? Since I don’t believe in your god because it’s all very silly I will be sent to Hell correct? It’s sort of a Mafia thing your god has, as long as you love, respect and obey him everything’s cool but go your own way and he busts your kneecaps for all of eternity.

That's free will? Really?

>He can do anything. But, rather, He chooses not to.

Uh huh.

So what was Jesus then? Didn’t he choose to do a whole bunch of stuff with that plan? Isn’t the Bible full of all kinds of instances of him doing all kinds of things to sway, motivate and punish mankind? Whole cities blown up, planets flooded, Egyptian babies killed in their sleep.

Why doesn’t your god do that stuff anymore? Could it be that we know it’s usually natural disasters / fires started by drunken goat hearders that destroy cities and flood lands? Isn’t it disease or SIDS that kills babies in their sleep? That we no longer have to declare this or that the wrath / blessing of some mysterious and rather capricious deity?

And the funny thing about a god that does nothing, that is the exactly what a god who doesn’t exist would do. A coincidence I’m sure.

Answer me this (you do know you’ve skipped 90% of my questions right? That is of course all the answer I need and expect) why did it take 300 years and a bloody Roman civil war for Christianity to come to the forefront of the Empire’s religion? Is that really what Jesus would have done? Did your god help win the battle? If so why would your god use a war to bring the message of Jesus to Europe? And why didn’t Jesus appear to the rest of the planet? Isn’t it odd that he only showed up for a little while in a tiny province of the Roman Empire? Why didn’t the Far Eastern and North and South Americans get their chance with Jesus? Why did it take another 1,200 years for them to hear the Good News?

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

> "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist." by Norman Geisler.

Yes, he repackages a bunch of theist boiler plate that is all debunked. I find it funny that your god needs tricks of semantics to defend his existence.

> Meanwhile, ask yourself where all of this came from-the universe, that is.

Sorry but the “prime mover” argument defeats itself and even if it didn’t who is to say said prime mover is your god? Yours is rather new to the scene, the Egyptian gods came some 2,000 years before the Jewish one. Why can’t it be their god that’s the real one? Why not Odin? He made the world out of the bones of a dead frost giant and he’s also well before BC.

But I do ask that question and the people I ask are the ones who get a lot of stuff right; science! See science actually delivers. A point I keep making but you guys keep ignoring but it’s a fact, science has done far more for humanity than any religion or haven’t you noticed we live longer happier lives? Jesus walked on water? Big deal, science walked on the moon and we got to watch from our living rooms, that’s a real miracle.

Now science is honest and when it doesn’t know the answer it says so, it has no idea where the universe came from but right now top nerds are staring at Hubble photographs and arguing with quantum mechanics trying to answer that question. Membrane theory in my current favorite but it’s got a lot of flaws, if there is an answer (and there may not be one) and if it’s possible we’ll figure it out eventually. We are very clever primates after all.

And this is where your religion survives; the gaps. Any bit of ignorance you lot will squeeze your god into and declare “Aha! You don’t know where the universe came from; I have a god that makes universes! Problem solved.”

Except that make no sense because the universe is a big empty full of hydrogen, black holes and stuff that kills life, kills it cold. If your god is really the creator of the universe he really doesn’t want much to live in it.

Say, why did he wait some 14.5 billion years to make us? What was he waiting for?

Blacksho89 »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

">Now, I have one for you. If I could prove to you scientifically that God exists, would you believe in Him?

You wouldn’t have to do it “scientifically” for me to believe in a god, you would just have to prove it."

OK, then I suggest you go to your public library and check out a book entitled "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist." by Norman Geisler. He is a much better apologist than I can hope to ever be. Meanwhile, ask yourself where all of this came from-the universe, that is.

Prophet »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:19 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

salvage

"See this is another contradiction, you claim your god to be all powerful yet sin seemed to be beyond his control..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wrong. It is not beyond His control. He's give everyone a free will to do as they wish. Sure, He can go against our will....He can do anything. But, rather, He chooses not to. Don't confuse "won't" with "can't"

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

> You are using words in which you claim to not believe to prove your superiority. Do you not see the contradiction?

That doesn’t actually make any sense, what I’m doing is looking at what the Bible says and showing it to be quite contradictory. This post is talking about how Jesus loves gays yet the Bible says he/your god calls them an abomination that’s bound for never ending pain and torture. Show me how that’s not a contradiction.

>"The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'

Sigh.

There are no such things as gods, not yours, not the ancient Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Persian, Aztec, Norse or any others that mankind has dreamed up over the last 10,000 years or so. They are myths that primitive cultures used to make sense of their world. Since the Enlightenment and science the need for these myths has decreased hence the drop in religion in developed counties. In fact the more intelligent and prosperous a society the less gods there are.

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>God did not create Sin.

I’m afraid he did, he created the universe correct? Sin resides within it yes? Therefore your god made sin.

See this is another contradiction, you claim your god to be all powerful yet sin seemed to be beyond his control, despite his making it. It’s a rather telling convenience that your god isn’t responsible for anything bad yet the world he made is full of it.

>He created Man, with free will to choose. Adam and Eve had one law to follow. Just one. And they broke it.

Do you have children? Let’s say you do, let’s say you have for some weird reason a bottle of poison. Now do you take that poison and put it inside of a piece of cake then take that piece of cake and leave it on the kitchen table where the kids can get at it and then tell them “Hey, that’s poison cake, don’t eat it.” And then leave?

Let’s say that you did and the kid naturally ate it because kids like cake and they’re stupid that way and the kid dies. Would the police arrest you? Do you think they should?

So your god left something that he didn’t want Adam and Eve to eat right in front of them in a form that they could eat. If your god didn’t want the fruit consumed then he should’t have made it consumable. Why not the rock of knowledge of good and evil? Why not nothing that carried the knowledge of good and evil?

The only logical way to look at that story is that your god set A&E up to fail.

salvage »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

>We see then that Man created Sin. God hates sin, and that is why He has provided Himself as the sacrifice to atone for that sin,

As I’ve already pointed out that makes no sense, your god made everything therefor he made sin, you can’t get around that fact. Furthermore how does it make sense that ALL of mankind is made to suffer for the actions of two? Let’s say your town had a serial killer and he killed a child, would the whole town be held responsible?

And what logic is there in your god sacrificing himself to himself?

Once again your god makes no sense.

>and-this is the important part-to change our hearts so that we may turn from sinful behavior toward love!

Yeah, hey Jesus came some 2,000 years ago, has that happened? From what I can tell the human condition is pretty much the same as it was back then. In fact things only started to get better for people with the advent of science.

Isn’t it interesting that Jesus only cured a few lepers but not leprosy itself? That cures and proper treatment of disease would take some 1,800 years and would be discovered by science and not religion? What did your Jesus do for the good of mankind?

>Is that the specific question you had? I think so.

Uh, no… all you did was repeat Christian doctrine that still makes no sense.

>Now, I have one for you. If I could prove to you scientifically that God exists, would you believe in Him?

You wouldn’t have to do it “scientifically” for me to believe in a god, you would just have to prove it.

Blacksho89 »

Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:09 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Salvage: Your statements prove the truth of the passage Jehovanissi posted. You are using words in which you claim to not believe to prove your superiority. Do you not see the contradiction?

"The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'" . Why does he say it in his heart? Because he knows the answer in his heart, He knows in his heart there IS a God; and he uses his heart to convince his mind.

God did not create Sin. He created Man, with free will to choose. Adam and Eve had one law to follow. Just one. And they broke it. We see then that Man created Sin. God hates sin, and that is why He has provided Himself as the sacrifice to atone for that sin, and-this is the important part-to change our hearts so that we may turn from sinful behavior toward love!

Is that the specific question you had? I think so.

Now, I have one for you. If I could prove to you scientifically that God exists, would you believe in Him?