Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:12:05 pm ET

Society|Fri, Jun. 26 2009 02:07 PM EDT

Christians Say Hate Crimes Bill Is Not What You Think

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

Attorney General Eric Holder urged Congress on Thursday to expand federal protections to gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals, a move conservatives say would criminalize those who simply speak against homosexuality.

Addressing the Senate Judiciary Committee, Holder argued for the passage of the Matthew Shepard Hate Crimes Prevention Act, saying "the time is now" to protect communities from violence based on bigotry and prejudice.

Named after a gay man killed in 1998, the bill would add violence against individuals based on sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or disability to the list of federal hate crimes.

Opponents of the bill say expanding the federal hate crime law is unnecessary considering state and local governments already prosecute violent crimes. But Holder argued that there are instances where the federal government needs to come in.

He also insisted that the bill would be used only to prosecute violent acts and not speech.

"It is the person who commits the actual act of violence, who would be subject to this legislation, not the person who is simply expressing an opinion," he said, responding to concerns from clergy and other religious leaders who say they could face prosecution just for expressing their religious views on homosexuality because their teachings could be blamed for inciting violence.

Holder's assertion, however, does not convince Christians that the bill will not lead to an abridgment of free speech.

Dr. Robert A. J. Gagnon, associate professor of New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, points out that the explicit mention of "the free speech or free exercise clauses of, the First Amendment" was removed from the version that was passed by the House in April.

"There is nothing in this bill that explicitly prevents any homosexualist-activist judge, of which there are many, from ruling that calling homosexual acts a grave 'abomination' by appeal to Levitical prohibitions constitutes an inducement to violence," Gagnon states in an article series arguing against the hate crimes legislation.

The Pittsburgh Seminary professor views the bill as "the Trojan horse of an aggressive gay/transgender lobby."

He argues that it offers "to the public the 'sexual orientation' and 'gender identity' law least likely to meet with massive public resistance." And once the horse is within the city walls, then passing other laws on sexual orientation and gender identity will be relatively easy.

Moreover, he contends that placing "sexual orientation" and "gender identity" alongside "race," "color" or "national origin" "ensconces in federal law the principle that homosexuality, bisexuality, and transsexuality are as benign as race, gender, and disability – an aspect of human diversity that must be affirmed and celebrated."

"Those who refuse to go along with this principle then become encoded in law as hateful, discriminatory bigots," he notes.

On that note, Gagnon says the hate crimes bill is not primarily about protecting homosexual and transgendered persons from violence, as they are already protected by existing state laws. Instead, the bill is really a hate-promotion bill, he argues.

"[S]upport for this bill does not mean that you oppose hateful, violent acts against persons who self-identify as homosexuals, transsexuals, and cross-dressers," he says. "Rather, it means that you support stigmatizing, marginalizing, and penalizing people who, lovingly or not, oppose homosexual practice and transgenderism."

Christian groups and religious broadcasters have persistently spoken out and urged followers and listeners to contact their senators to reject the pending hate crimes legislation. A letter signed by more than 60 conservative leaders, including James Dobson of Focus on the Family, Tony Perkins of Family Research Council and Don Wildmon of American Family Association, was reportedly hand-delivered to every member of the Senate last week.

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  • Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    CCUgirl06 »Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:56 pm Those of you who don't believe hate crimes happen just have your heads in the sand. As a post-operative, male to female transsexual who goes about her daily life with no problems or suspecions, I can attest to what happens by people of faith when they find out about my past. How does being fired, not being hired, being a victim of vehicle assult, being beaten up while others watch and then having the authorties tell me, "Well, what did you expect?"
    ----------------------------------------------------
    In Response: when that happened did the police tell you nothing could be done since attacking a transgendered person is not considered a hate crime?

    I have heard testimony from others of the LGBT Community who have experienced similar experiences and I know of people who were seriously injured or killed due to their LGBT involvement.

    The law is long overdue and once it is in place I sincerely hope that it is fully enforced.

    TFR

  • Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Here is the link to the complete text of the bill HR1592 spoken of in the article above.

    http://www.govtrack.us/congressbilltext.xpd?bill=h110-1592

    "SEC. 8. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.
    Nothing in this Act, or the amendments made by this Act, shall be construed to prohibit any expressive conduct protected from legal prohibition by, or any activities protected by the free speech or free exercise clauses of, the First Amendment to the Constitution."

    The pertinent text covering Freedom of Speech and of Religion is given in its entirety.

    Check the link, the entire bill is about 1 page long and you can read it for yourself. Nothing in there saying anyone will be charged or convicted if they speak about anyone listed under the bill.

    If anyone contends there is another then let then put up the link to the Congressional site where it can be verified and read. Remember it has to be a legitimate website and from the Government showing a real bill.
    TFR

  • Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ccugirl06,
    I do not believe that a truely born again Christian would do any of the statements that you commented on. Now unbeliever's and worldly people will. There are many who use the name of Christian and do not walk like one.
    Your past is your past and God is always waiting to receive a person who will repent and accept Him as Lord. God loves everyone

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Those of you who don't believe hate crimes happen just have your heads in the sand. As a post-operative, male to female transsexual who goes about her daily life with no problems or suspecions, I can attest to what happens by people of faith when they find out about my past. How does being fired, not being hired, being a victim of vehicle assult, being beaten up while others watch and then having the authorties tell me, "Well, what did you expect?"

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ggirl, please tell me a crime that can be committed against another person that is not covered by a law already?

    I cannot. The question for me is not that it is not covered, but to what extent the law provides adequate punishment.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer: I just found your question to me... I went on vacation, and am just getting back. I will respond soon. Many blessings your way.

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Hate crime" laws already exist, and apply to categories such as race, ethnicity, and religious beliefs. Hate is still legal, but if a victim of a violent crime is targeted because they belong to a particular category, that crime might be a hate crime.

    All this legislation does is add sexual orientation to the list. No new crime is defined. The only restriction on speech is that you're not allowed to advocate violence against other people, and that's already prohibited.

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Alocksee,

    Just so you know, I'm not the one flagging you. I've been trying to ask you questions for several days, but someone (I know who it is) keeps flagging me. Don't give up; the moderators are working on a solution.

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Daniel Paul »Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:24 pm In some ways I'm hoping the hate crimes law does pass so we can turn in people like Alockslee's for the hate which spews from page after page. I guess he simply views us through his own behavior. ----------------------------------------------------------- In response: Looks like you don't like the same treatment you dish out. My posts are in exactly the same format as those who are trying to force conversion on the rest of us. Don't like what you read? Then change from your hatred based ideology and prove it by posting from a real Christian perspective instead of the bigoted approach you continually push. After you have undone all the damage you have committed along with the others with you then I won't need to comment because there won't be a need to speak out against it. With the vast amounts of people leaving the evangelical hate base it shouldn't be that much longer before the restoration of America can begin. It will just need finishing up on their closure and then the real True Christians will be able exist sans the fascists pretending to be Christians like the fundies and evangelicals are. Remember nothing in the Matthew Sheppard Act interferes with speech so passage of it won't affect my posting, what it will do is to help prosecute those who carry out their hatred in physical acts against others. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth fundies fear!! TFR hide

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show oldstudent »Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:13 pm For one, lets get rid of non-profit status so we can no longer be held hostage by that regulation. If we take the govt $, we are bound by the rules, even when illegally enforced. As for Alockslee's blog, since he can't distinguish between evangelicals and fundamentalists (the derogatory usage of the term obviously), the commentary there can't be taken seriously; especially the 'death throes' thread. Many have spoken those words previously and all have been proven incorrect. Let fantasy be on his blog, in a couple of years nobody will be reading it anyway. -------------------------------------------------------- In response: If you live in America then you are subject to the laws of it. If you don't like having to follow the rules of secular reality, then find another non-reality based place to live. Until then stop trying to force others to convert to your ideology. Thanks for the promotion of my blog as your comments prove it to be Truth and reality. It is quite interesting that those who live in a fantasy NOTW existence can't deal with reality. Religion has a place to many people, but it does not replace reality it helps guide you through it, something fundies and evangelicals forget and try to force others into accepting only to find the real world is still there and they can't fantasize their way out of it. Whether a fundamentalist or evangelical it still boils down to fascist ideology. The real problem for fundies and evangelicals against reality is their programming prevents them from dealing with the world and the people in it. Instead of Practicing Christianity, they have corrupted it into something that doesn't resemble what was started over 2,000 years ago. One day they will have no members, the programming will no longer work and people will realize that religion is a guide through life and not a fantasy existence that prevents it. http://alockslee.blogspot.com/ Truth not fantasy!! TFR hide

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show I don't remember anyone who specifically worshipped Satan, but I do remember a poster who was involved with witchcraft before being set free by Jesus. Same person perhaps? wbmoore was very direct in confronting inaccuracies about the Bible and the Christian faith. hide

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You're just getting off on claiming that you are better than somebody else."

    Allow Paul to speak for me:

    1Ti 1:15-16 "This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
    Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    JustAsking....

    Quite true indeed. In fact, Satan has been using the same tactics on a variety of subjects since Adam and Eve.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:11 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "''I can't believe I missed that conversation...who was it?''

    I think it may be another one of his fairy tales."


    Actually, I seem to remember parts of that conversation. Talk about one strange person....

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "New way of living?" Homosexuality has always been with us and its proponents have always desired to rule by it. We are only back in the implementation and rejection of its dominance over the populace once again. GLBT's will gain power, and then the people will rise up and New Rome will once again be back to a moral and sound family environment. Nothing "new" about Gay Activism except a few neologisms. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''I can't believe I missed that conversation...who was it?''

    I think it may be another one of his fairy tales.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HM "The last person who spoke with us like you are speaking now had indeed previously been a self-identified Satan worshipper."

    I can't believe I missed that conversation...who was it?

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "You are being grossly disrespectful of the Bible to throw around hateful phrases like that."

    Jesus was "grossly disrespectful" of the Bible in the eyes of those who didn't want to accept it as the authority and made it say what they wanted. In fact, they put Him on the cross for it.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What do you mean welcome, you would need to be living that life to welcome me sweetheart.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''Welcome to a new way of living. :-)''

    New, funny!

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Wonderful! Welcome to a new way of living. :-) hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    ''You gave us some hints earlier.''

    I did?


    ''So tell us then: How long?''

    Nearly seven years.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "How do you know how long I've been saved?" You gave us some hints earlier. So tell us then: How long? hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''You also attacked other people of faith, calling their church an abomination. All this when you have been a member for less than a day.''

    They are not of the faith, but they can be if they repent!

    Consider your newness to Christianity along with your newness to the forum. There may still be things you need to learn.

    How do you know how long I've been saved?

    Could you tone it down a little?

    Could you stop saying all sorts of rude and disgaceful things?

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "put curses on" is your phrase, not mine. You called me a child of Satan. That is not acceptable. You also attacked other people of faith, calling their church an abomination. All this when you have been a member for less than a day. Consider your newness to Christianity along with your newness to the forum. There may still be things you need to learn. Could you tone it down a little? hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''Rachel, you just joined this forum yesterday, and you took a name very similar to another poster who has already told you she is concerned about it.''

    One it was a coincidence that we chose similar names, but the fact we are both called Rachel and the number seven is a very popular number like red id a very poular colour, might have something to do with it.

    She is concerned about it, where did she say this?

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''Do you have some issues we need to talk about?''

    Nope!

    The reason I asked the question is that you are paranoid, or something much worse.

    How you can say I've put curses on you beggers belief.

    I've read loads of your posts and some of them are evil to say the least.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Rachel, you just joined this forum yesterday, and you took a name very similar to another poster who has already told you she is concerned about it. You have already called me a child of Satan today. Now you're calling me a paranoid schizophrenic. The last person who spoke with us like you are speaking now had indeed previously been a self-identified Satan worshipper. Do you have some issues we need to talk about? hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Homo man, I am going to ask you a question, it is a serious question, not a joke. Are you on medication for paranoid schizophrenia by any chance? hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show HM, THese are some of the passages that speaks of satan as the master of the disobedient and rebellious-- ------------------------------------------------------------ Eph. 2:1-3 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. ----------------------------------------------------------------- John 8:34,36 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin...So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." John 8:43-45,47 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!...He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. Romans 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? ----------------------------------------------------------------- John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free..... again, HM, if you believe in Jesus CHrist, your Savior, you know the truth and the truth will make you free...... you are a new creation,.. the old has gone...the new has come.... think of who you are in CHrist...... :O) hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show hman, I John 3:10, "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." Looks like Rachel was correct on this one! hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "The Bible say's that people who are still in their sins are of their father the devil" The Bible does not say that Rachel. Again, you are simply lying. You are being grossly disrespectful of the Bible to throw around hateful phrases like that. When you use curses in the name of Satan to get your way, you are not practicing Christianity. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HM,

    Our faith in the SOn of GOd, our Savior, JEsus CHrist, is a grace from GOD...meaning it (faith) saves us from the penalty and power of sin.

    2 Cor 5:17
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

    THis verse states exactly what happens when a sinner puts his trust in the saving work of God. It all starts with God and is completed by GOD.GOd the Father determined to save His elect, Jesus Christ paid for the penalty of the sins of the elect, and GOd the Holy SPirit empowers the saved to live for GOD's glory.


    5:16-21 ---- The renewed man acts upon new principles, by new rules, with new ends, and in new company. The believer is created anew; his heart is not merely set right, but a new heart is given him. He is the workmanship of God, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Though the same as a man, he is changed in his character and conduct. These words must and do mean more than an outward reformation. The man who formerly saw no beauty in the Saviour that he should desire Him, now loves Him above all things.

    The heart of the unregenerate is filled with enmity against God, and God is justly offended with him. Yet there may be reconciliation. Our offended God has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ. By the inspiration of God, the Scriptures were written, which are the word of reconciliation; showing that peace has been made by the cross, and how we may be interested therein. Though God cannot lose by the quarrel, nor gain by the peace, yet he beseeches sinners to lay aside their enmity, and accept the salvation He offers. Christ knew no sin. He was made Sin; not a sinner, but Sin, a Sin-offering, a Sacrifice for sin. The end and design of all this was, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him, might be justified freely by the grace of God through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Can any lose, labour, or suffer too much for Him, who gave His beloved Son to be the Sacrifice for their sins, that they might be made the righteousness of God in him?---Matthew Henry


    You cliaim to have faith in CHrist, therefore, think on these things HM...as a new creation in CHRIST...your new identity.... the old things have passed away..... :O)

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show hman, your insinuations about Christ in His relationship to Lazarus and Mark certainly indicate you are attacking God's Word! hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The devil had control over me too, but praise the Lord, I repented and was born again.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show ''In the meantime you are calling people children of Satan, which is beneath even common civility, to say nothing of being Christian.'' The Bible say's that people who are still in their sins are of their father the devil, you are still in your sins. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show I have not attacked God's word. I have not rejected Christ. The verse that defines homosexuality as an abomination is an instruction to *you* to murder gay people. Unless you are murdering gay people, then *you* are violating Leviticus 20:13. In the meantime you are calling people children of Satan, which is beneath even common civility, to say nothing of being Christian. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show ''What sin am I living in Rachel?'' Even if you are not in a homosexual relationship, you are defending an abomination, so that's one sin. The fact that you are attacking God's word, would be another huge sin. The rejection of Christ, now that's a really dangerous one. As for the rest of your sins, I don't think I really want to know. hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show What sin am I living in Rachel? hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ''I can *never* be forgiven, because I will always be a homosexual.''

    That's rubbish.

    If you keep living in your sin and die without Christ, you will never be forgiven.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    HM,


    THinking you are a homosexual is your self identity. BUt when you put your faith and trust in the Savior, your Savior,JESUS CHRIST, you will have your identity in Him. He says that ".. ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.(1Cr 6:11)", if indeed you have acknowledged His word to be true. The more you think of who you are in CHrist, the less you think about being a homosexual.. the less you identify yourself as one.

    I know that it is impossible to forsake that which have molded our thinking regarding ourselves but GOd's truth and His Holy SPIRIT is powerful to destroy such strongholds... just have faith in His Word.

    2Cr 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in {the likeness of} God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


    Col 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    hman, this is where I tend to disagree with some of the other posters, a person simply being homosexual and/or having same-sex attraction issues is not sin, but when they give into those same-sex attractions and have sexual intimacy or sexual desires be it physical, emotional, and/or mental that is when they enter into sin and if they continue in that sin and do not repent and turn to Christ when they die as with any other person who refuses to repent and turn to God they will be eternally separated from God. And if a person says they are a Christian and continues to live in sin and shows no remorse or sorrow for their sin and are not experiencing the discipline of God in their life, then is a very high probability they have never had a genuine conversion experience.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show JN writes: "for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals" So First Timothy groups me with "those who kill their fathers or mothers and other murderers" Now JN consider the facts. No matter what I do, I am a homosexual. No matter if I never have sex in my entire life, I am a homosexual. And the author of First Timothy groups me with murderers. I have no choice but to be condemned like a murderer. And not just that, but infinitely worse than a murderer. The murderer can be forgiven. I cannot be forgiven. You condemn me not because of what I do, or believe, or say, but because of who I *am*. I can *never* be forgiven, because I will always be a homosexual. What would *you* do? Would you talk nicely with people and try to think through it? Or would you just say, hey, you have told me that I am not like most people, but instead I am condemned like a murderer, regardless of anything I do. I don't have a chance, no matter what. The way I see it, you are committing profound psychological abuse, and so was the author of this epistle. How can you live with yourself when you treat your fellow man this way? :-) hide

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Don't you realize how arrogant and narrow-minded it is to insist that either *your* interpretation is correct, or else *Jesus* is a liar?"

    There you go with "interpretation" again. The age old cry of Satan. "Did God really say you would die?" Satan uses "interpretation". After all, if Eve had said, "Yes as a matter of fact. That's EXACTLY what God said!" we might not be in this mess! It was interpretation of what was plainly written that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden.

    So...yes, the Bible is absolutely clear in what is says without need of "interpretation". The Bible is not a "living document" subject to man's interpretation. Just FYI, I deal with "legal trickery" by schools who do not want to follow the law. They do this through "interpretation". At first, they said that was just my interpretation of the law. The US Dept. of Ed said they were wrong and they got into trouble. My point? You can accept what the truth is now or continue to blame "interpretation". Still, there will come a time when God will clearly explain to you what He wrote, tell you that you were warned my myself and many others, and then send you some place you don't want to be.

    There are absolutes. There is a right and wrong. The Bible clearly says what is right and wrong. God expects you to "unlearn" arbitrary absolutism and learn what HE says is right.

    1Th 4:7-8 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
    He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

    Homosexuality is unclean.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:09 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,


    1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers


    1Ti 1:10.... and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,...

    --------------------------------------------------------
    gay theology is is not sound teacing.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    Tts 1:9 ....holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, all your references to Peter, James, and John being egotistical were prior to them receiving the Holy Spirit, but the reality is just because a person is saved does not mean they are perfect and will never sin again and in fact the reality is we do, but at the same time God has a purpose for every Christian's life, but that can't be realized unless we are surrendered to the Lordship of Christ and the control of God's Holy Spirit.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, do you really think you're fooling anyone when you totally ignore what they're responding to with regards to us responding to your posts, such as DP was responding to your post when you said Jesus showed why the laws were wrong when in fact He didn't and what He did was give the correct interpretation of the law and showed how the religious leaders were misusing the law to their advantage. And while I agree that many of the laws of the Old Covenant are no longer applicable to us today since we are under the New Covenant there are some commands that are applicable to both the Old and New Covenants. Two of them are God's original and only design for marriage and His original and only design for sexual intimacy which are that marriage is one man and one woman united as one for life in God's sight and sexual intimacy is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman united as one for life in God's sight through marriage.

  • Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:07 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    ''You're just getting off on claiming that you are better than somebody else.''

    Not better, just walking in the light.

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show DP wrote: "You must also believe that Jesus lied when He said He didn't come to destroy the law but to fulfill it." Don't you realize how arrogant and narrow-minded it is to insist that either *your* interpretation is correct, or else *Jesus* is a liar? There are more possibilities than that. Regarding the law, Jesus said this: "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." There is a qualifying phrase: UNTIL all is accomplished. All was accomplished. The Law has been changed. For heaven's sake, YOU certainly believe the law has been changed. If you don't think the law has been changed, then you'd better be observing the 613 commands, and you'd better not be using any electric appliances or driving a car on Saturdays. You know full well you don't believe what you're saying. Why are you saying it? To justify your verbal and written abuse of gay people. You're just getting off on claiming that you are better than somebody else. :-) hide

  • Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    hm, I see you're up to your old tricks again of twisting and perverting the Word of God, the only problem is you are not a very good magician!

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