Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Society|Mon, Jul. 06 2009 01:35 PM EDT

Survey Finds More Hispanic Americans Becoming Protestant

By Jennifer Riley|Christian Post Reporter

The percentage of Hispanic Catholics in America has dropped, while the proportion of born-again Hispanics has increased, a new survey by the Barna Group found.

Over the past 15 years, the proportion of Hispanics in America that is aligned with the Catholic Church has fallen by 25 percent. By comparison, the proportion of born-again Christians for this ethnic group has increased by 17 percent.

“You cannot help but notice the changing relationship between Hispanics and the Catholic Church,” commented George Barna, whose company conducted the research. “While many Hispanic immigrants come to the United States with ties to Catholicism, the research shows that many of them eventually connect with a Protestant church.”

Moreover, many second and third generation Hispanic Americans are leaving the Catholic tradition, he noted.

The latest Barna survey studies the growing Hispanic population in America in terms of their faith and how they compare to the general American population. It finds that in a surprising number of key aspects the Hispanic population mirrors that of the nation’s general population.

Some of the significant similarities between the Hispanic and the general American adult populations include nearly identical profiles on the perceived accuracy of the principles taught in the Bible; a personal sense of responsibility to share their faith with others; belief that the primary purpose of life is to love God fully; the likelihood of having read the Bible in the past week; and having made a personal commitment to Jesus that is important in their life.

“The study points out how significant faith is in the lives of Hispanics,” Barna commented. “Not only do most of them assert that importance, but the fact that so much is changing in their faith perspectives and practices underscores how much energy they devote to their spirituality.”

But the study also found significant differences that exist between Hispanic Americans and the general American adult population.

Hispanics are more likely to believe that a good person can earn his or her way into heaven than the overall American adult population. This growing group is also twice as likely to be aligned with the Catholic Church (44 percent vs. 22 percent).

The ethnic group was also found to be less likely than Americans overall to claim that they are "absolutely committed" to Christianity (46 percent vs. 58 percent).

But when it comes to the born-again segments, Hispanics and the general American adult population showed few differences.

According to the Barna report, a born-again Christian is not based on self-identification, but rather on certain qualifications as defined by the Barna Group.

Survey results are based on telephone interviews conducted by The Barna Group gathered from nine nationwide random samples of adults. In total, 9,232 interviews were conducted between January 2007 and November 2008. Respondents were asked during the interviews if they consider themselves to be Hispanics. Out of the more than 9,000 people interviewed, 1,195 adults fell into the Hispanic category.

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  • Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Praise God! I pray for hispanics very often. I think there culture pushes a catholosism religion into their thinking but often never penetrates their decisions or make Christ their personal Lord and Saviour.

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:41 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    chas, faith alone is not biblical, then please explain Ephesians 2:8-10 which makes it very obvious that salvation is indeed by faith alone!

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    chas, once again works are the result of our salvation, but works cannot keep us saved they simply affirm the fact that we are saved. I John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life." I John 5:11-12, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have this life." And of course John 10:27-30. And in Hebrews we read that if a person could lose their salvation and they do they can never be saved again.

  • Chas »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Protestants and especially Baptists do not differentiate between actual grace and the initial grace the prompts us.

    This is why once saved always saved and Faith alone are not Traditional Christianity, nor are they biblical.

    It is important when discussing Grace to discern whether the scripture is speaking about initial Grace, Actual Grace, Sanctifying Grace, etc.

  • Chas »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    It is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
    This speaks of the initial Grace as opposed to actual Grace.

    The election of God, and the first grace at least, are always without any merits on our part; but if we speak of works done in a state of grace, and by the assistance of God's grace, we co-operate with the graces given, and by thus co-operating, we deserve and merit a reward in heaven. If salvation were to come by works, done by nature, without faith and grace, salvation would not be a grace or favour, but a debt; but such dead works are indeed of no value in the sight of God towards salvation.

    It is not the same with regard to works done with and by God's grace; for to such works as these he has promised eternal salvation.

  • Chas »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer, as long as you say that our "Yes" to God's grace is Good Works then we are on the same page.

    Once you have faith, then the next step in the process is being Baptised which is another "Yes"
    keep the commandments are also our "Yes"
    Eating the Eucharist(Unless you eat of the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you, but if you do He will lift you up on the last day)which is another "Yes" to God's grace
    Confession of Sins is a "Yes" to God's Grace

    The more you live and aim to live in God's will the more you say "Yes" and the more you can cooperate with God's will to be saved.

    You are not SAVED by just saying "Yes" verbally and being saved is a process not a one time thing. Even Paul had Hope to be Saved. You don't need Hope if you are guaranteed it.

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    chas, Romans 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

  • Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chas, I'm glad to see that you finally realize that works are not required for a person to be saved as you note that basically all one needs to do is say yes to God's free gift of grace which saves us.

  • Chas »
    Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer,

    There is a big difference between "Initial Grace" and "Actual Grace". Since it is the Father who beckons us to seek Him out, that is the initial Grace of God. But it is the Actual Grace of God that is the grace we need at the time of judgement. Actual Grace is what we receive through Baptism, Eucharist, Confession, etc. God infuses in our soul a real change so that on the moment of death we will be judged for Heaven.

    Actual Grace needs a response from us. Our Faith is the beginning part and our works say "Yes" to God's Grace and makes our faith complete. It is by keeping the commandments and receiving the Sacraments to the best of our ability that we say "Yes" to God's Grace.

    It is by our Free will, that we say "Yes" to God.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chas, if I have to work for salvation it is no longer the free gift of God, we work as a result of being saved not to be saved.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chas, you asked what is Faith and I'll let God's Word answer that, Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen." We put our complete faith/trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone to save us and keep us for all of eternity.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:05 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Chas,

    Again, I posted a specific passage of Scripture and again you refuse to comment upon it. How can we properly exegete a text if you are unwilling to comment upon it? What is Paul saying in this verse?


    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work (Romans 11:6).


    Surely, Paul is not speaking of salvation by works infused with grace and since you did not answer my reposted question, allow me to reword it: Do you continue to sin after being made righteous/infused? Also, the Byzantines, Melkites, Coptics, Chaldeans, Maronites, Syriac, and Armenian Churches do not accept the claims of Catholicism; perhaps, this is why they are not Roman Catholic?

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    One who may use works to gain salvation is dead and, it will not get anyone saved. But excepting Christ as their Lord and Savior through complete surrender and repentence we may receive the free gift of eternal life and begin to live for Him. We will seek a personel relationship with Him. We will pickup our cross and follow Him. We will then begin to produce works for the kingdom through Christ Jesus.

  • Chas »
    Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Online,

    You say we Romans altered what was meant for Christians and that 1500 years later, you got it right? Well, we romans, byzantines, melkites, coptics, chaldeans, maronites, syriac, armenian apostolic all agree on this infusion of Grace and all of these churches were founded by the Apostles and their successors.

    So, it ain't just us. Your view of imputeth Grace is not Apostolic it is rather a heterodox opinion.

    Believer,

    Yes, by Grace we will be saved. And "Yes" is it unmerited Grace, so "Yes" it is a free gift.

    If works are not needed with Faith, then what is Faith?
    Faith is defined by belief working in love. So are not both faith and works one thing, since to sepparate either makes them useless.

    By grace we will be saved through Faith working in love.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    chas, answer me this if grace is indeed God's unmerited favor and a gift from Him then if works are required to obtain this grace then how can it remain God's unmerited favor or a gift from God?

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:29 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chas, the following passages clearly teach that works are not a requirement for salvation: Acts 13:39, 15:9, 16:31, John 3:14-17, Romans 3:21-18, 4:5, 5:1, 9:30, 10:9-11, Galatians 2:16, 3:11,24 Ephesians 2:8-10, and Philippians 3:9.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,

    You are welcome; I too thank you for your willingness to have a long term discussion, however, I wish you would post and comment on specific passages instead of reverting back to, "the church says." The Scriptures have been given by the inspiration of God and should be the focal point of our discussion. It never contradicts itself as so many other sources continue to do. Again, none of these passages speak of infused grace which merits God's favor through works. Here is another passage:

    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work (Romans 11:6).

    Your position allows for biblical contradictions; for example, you speak of grace but then turn and speak of meritorious works. The above passage clearly speaks of one or the other; if we are saved by grace then it cannot be by works. By the way; my question was never answered, why do you continue to sin (generally speaking) or have you sinned since being infused/made righteous?

    Sorry, history demonstrates that your church altered and misinterpreted the Scriptures...Where did the minority texts come from? Also, the Roman Church arose after the New Testament Church had already been established and if we are going to properly exegete scripture here then let's post specific passages instead of saying, "the church says"...

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chas, and the same is true with you if you weren't so encumbered with roman catholic extrabiblical teaching you would see that online's explanation of the verses you shared are totally accurate and many Bible scholars who truly understand the Greek and Aramaic would be in total agreement with what online shared. But once again as with so many other roman catholics who post on these sites your arrogance is beginning to show itself.

  • Chas »
    Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online,

    Thank you for taking a look at those verses. The problem is you are giving your opinion, not research. These verses do describe infusion; washed, sanctified, regenerated, build up from within, built up, renewed, etc. Depending on your translation, these words all describe infusion by the Holy Spirit. That a real change is being made within us, as a opposed to a simple declaration. My interpretation has historical witness on my side, while yours' is a departure.

    Moreover, the original Greek from both the Alexandrian AND BYZANTINE Text agree on word usage on my point.

    Lastly, Traditional Christianity always believed in infused Grace and the Catholic and Orthodox Churches(the eldest of Christianity having apostolic succession) fully agree on this infusion of grace and the grace infused by the Sacraments. Luther and other Reformers had to attack that very point and develop something NEW which is not Traditional Christianity. Imputeth Grace is a departure of original Christianity. Your reformers had to attack the Sacraments, which attacks the power of the Church who has been given God's authority. You have to attack the Church, because your sects do not have this infusion power by God except for baptism. To try and make your sects legitimate, you must destroy the former way of believing.

    1500 years is a long time to believe one way, and then a group of people who have no history and no personal connection to the Apostles try to create something new to legitimize their manipulation of scripture.

    I guess if I only had the benefit of exegesis, without having the correct Greek or having continuity with what was always believed since the original deposit of faith by the Apostles, and having a sect of Christianity who doesn't hold any Apostolic authority with the Sacraments that infuse grace, then I guess it would be logical and reasonable to take your position and try to attack the very foundation of the Catholic Church which has this authority of the Sacraments.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chas, my last "believers" should be "unbelievers".

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    chas, yes, doing the works that God prepared for us to join Him in doing does indeed reveal our faith, but they in no way saved us. But I can tell you this about Matthew 19 it has nothing to do with one's salvation, Jesus was showing the rich young ruler that he had allowed his riches to get between him and God and in fact if anything Jesus affirms that our works can not save us and specifically in this case the keeping of the Ten Commandments and in fact the rich young ruler tells Jesus that he has kept the Ten Commandments. And all the other verses used were after the fact, they were speaking to believers not unbelievers and were speaking mainly to the perseverance of believers, but certainly not to the salvation of believers.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (Many Protestant bibles are taking out the word Imputeth and putting in the correct word of Reputeth or Credits)

    I agree; the problem is that these new translations are all based upon the corrupt Alexandrian Text . . . There are only two main streams of manuscripts and your bible along with the newer bible translations are all based upon the minority text; this is no surprise to those who are familiar with the history of these manuscripts/translations. In regards to Romans 4:6, the Webster's Bible Translation, the Geneva Study Bible, American King James Version, and the King James Version all use "Imputeth."

    (When interpreting the New Testament or Old, you must interpret one scripture verse in the light of the whole story, which is all of scripture)

    I agree; when one honestly considers the entire collective witness of Scripture it clearly states that "we" are justified by faith not by meritorious works.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,

    Good morning:

    Acts 26:18 - "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by FAITH that is IN ME"

    This verse says nothing of infused grace . . .

    1Corinthians 1:2 - "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's"

    Sorry, you are assuming that sanctification is infused . . . it is the Holy Spirit that transforms believer's hearts by faith.


    1 Corinthians 6:11 - "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified IN THE NAME OF the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT of our God"

    Again, it is in faith in Christ and through the Holy Spirit . . . not by infused works.

    1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the SPIRIT, unto obedience and sprinkling of the BLOOD of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied"

    Again, sanctification of the Holy Spirit does not mean infused merit . . .


    2 Peter 1:9 - "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins"

    Yes, the purging is described in the preceding verse (1 Peter 1:2): sanctification through the Holy Spirit and through the blood of Jesus Christ which is received by faith. None of these passages speak of infused grace which merits God's favor through works.

  • Chas »
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You can find that the Greek form logizomai or logizetai has the same meaning in the Textus Receptus of 1894, it is the same meaning of "Credit" in Nestle'-Alande version and it is the same meaning of "Credit" in the Byzantine Text.

    The New American Standard Bible uses "Credit", so does the Latin Vulgate, so does the Alexandrian Text, so does the Coptic and Byzantine Texts.
    Sorry Online.

  • Chas »
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer,

    You did not sufficiently rebut those verses. Those verses clearly show that Works reveal a true faith which rebuts Faith alone.

    Online,

    These other verses I included clearly show infusion of Grace, not imputeth Grace.
    When interpreting the New Testament or Old, you must interpret one scripture verse in the light of the whole story, which is all of scripture.

    Romans 4:6 λογίζομαι , which is logizomai or which means to reckon, to count, to compute, to count over is the purest definition of "CREDITS", not Imputeth. And this is from a Protestant New American Standard Bible.

    Imputeth, which is what Luther was getting after was an Legal use or acquital of sin with absolutely no internal change in the person. Many Protestant bibles are taking out the word Imputeth and puting in the correct word of Reputeth or Credits.

    New American Standard Bible

    4:6
    just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    kaqaper kai Dauid legei ton makarismon tou anqrwpou w| o qeov logizetai dikaiosunhn xwriv ergwn,

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ''Brit, don't fret that's just that roman catholic arrogance thats seem to be so pervasive among some of our roman catholic friends in their feeble attempt to make other Christians who are not roman catholics to see themselves as second class Christians at best!!!''

    They would have to be Christians in the first place for us to be second class Christians.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:39 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ''(Your translation of Romans 4:6 is transliterated. It is reputeth not imputeth.)

    Sorry, it is the other way around; I will stick with the majority text.''

    The catholic church have got their Bible from the corrupt Alexandrian text, so they don't fully have the word of God to start with.
    Then they have their traditions that go against Scripture and I have never known anyone twist and abuse the Scriptures to suit them, more than the catholic church.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''This should be a lot of fun! I don't care to intimidate, but rather to illuminate the scriptures so that you might seek the fullness of Truth of Jesus Christ, which available only through Catholic Church who is the safeguard of the Apostolic faith and the original bible.''

    But beware, if you think using your interlect is the key to understanding Scripture, you will find yourself disapointed at the judgement seat.

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:33 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Brit, don't fret that's just that roman catholic arrogance thats seem to be so pervasive among some of our roman catholic friends in their feeble attempt to make other Christians who are not roman catholics to see themselves as second class Christians at best!!!

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    chas, not so much I can say with those verses, well I guess I just did!!!

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ihs, you said it yourself, works needed to show faith and no one is arguing that point, the issue is does it require works for a person to be saved and the answer is a resounding no!!

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,

    Wow; that must have been a real quick dinner. It must not have been too heavy to put you to bed; lol.

    (Your translation of Romans 4:6 is transliterated. It is reputeth not imputeth.)

    Sorry, it is the other way around; I will stick with the majority text. By the way; care to post which versions you referencing from?

    I do not know why you chose to bring up Luther; my faith is not in any man but in the Word of God. Also, let's address one passage at a time here; I am in no hurry. Let me ask you this; for the sake of our conversation; if you have been "infused/made" righteous . . . Why do you continue to sin (generally speaking) or have you sinned since being infused/made righteous? Let's take a look at another passage:

    And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other . . . (Luke 18:13, 14).

    In this passage we have a man who went to his house "justified" . . . he did not obtain this justification by any merit or works. He was justified, not by any approved works, but God's grace . . . the imputed righteousness of Christ. By imparting or imputing Christ's righteousness to us sinners, God counts or reckons us as righteous; by imputation.

    Let's say on track here; I am not concerned with what Luther thought here at the moment. My focal point are the Scriptures; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Unless, you wish to leave this subject and discuss the papacy? Would you rather discuss the papacy?

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:58 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Chas,
    Get your facts straight. It was St. Anne, patron saint of miners (Luther's fathr was a miner), whom Luther invoked, not Mary. Gigantic ego? Consider his nemesis, Dr. John Eck. Royal pain in the neck. Animosity to the Jews? Late in life (stricken with illness and pain in the last years) made one outburst, after his hopes for the restoration of pure Gospel were still crudely rejected by the Jewish nation whom Luther felt the Church alienated.
    Pick up a balanced biography of Luther (I suggest Roland Bainton's Here I Stand), not a propaganda piece.

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Chas,
    Who is talking about a declaration alone? The declaration is the mere beginning. I understand your concern for not condoning dead faith. Understand my concern of cheaping God's grace by claiming credit for a potion of salvation. Martin Luther did not promote dead faith. "Faith is a busy and active thing, that no sooner than it conceives of some good deed, it is done."

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    to say that Martin Luther didn't have some mental issues is trying to cover his sins no pun intended, just see how he appealed to the Virgin Mary when it was lightening outside.

    How he constantly talked to himself, how his ego was gigantic. How he hated the JEWS, etc, etc.

    He wasn't a right minded fellow.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Acts 26:18
    1Cor 1:2
    1 Cor 6:11
    1 Pet 1:2
    2 Pet 1:9

    These verses explicitly promote infusion and a real change rather than a declaration alone.

    Words like you were WASHED, you were Sanctified, Cleansed, to build you up.

    These words don't describe imputed Grace, they describe quite clearly infused Grace.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    One might think that imputeth makes sense if one can only ignore these other scriptures that point to faith and works, justification and sanctification as one process.

    Acts 26:18: â

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas,
    Nice try on the Rom 4: 6 bluff. But the Greek word under consideration, logizetai, has no possible meaning that would indicate infusion. The term means more to take account for a sum and determine the sum is accurate. In short, after a judgment call, correctness is decleared.
    Your issue with Martin Luther shows great inaccuracy. He did not hate himself. His life as an Augustinian monk and a priest were exemplary. The only difficulty was his feelings of not adequately meriting God's favor, and was driven to despair by the very Church teachings he struggled to imitate. The path of work-righteousness was not working for Luther. His advancement as professor of religion at the Univ. of Wittenberg gave Luther the opportunity to deal with the Scriptures, first Psalms then Romans. His initial meeting of the phrase "righteousness of God" meant only the authority God had to judge and comdemn sinners. Only further study declared that this righteousness of God was granted to those who placed faith in Christ. Luther could know his sins were graciously forgiven him by Christ Himself, if not by the Church that burdened souls with a work-righteousness mentality.
    And establishing Catholic authority via secular sources ... do they really know the subject matter?
    Grace and peace be yours.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Did you know that Luther admitted that the Catholic Church was the true Church?

    "Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
    Sermon for the Sunday after Christ�s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.

    Luther remarked several years later:

    "We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
    Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS,
    St. Louis, Mo., Concordia, 1961, 304

    Enjoy!

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online,

    It is not unreasonable for you to believe in imputeth Grace, if you focus on Romans 1 or 4 and yet throw out all the other scriptures that attest to regeneration or the actual context of the word righteousness. In this way Luther overlooked how it was used during this time period contextually.

    You see Luther like many Protestants came to these scriptures exegetically and tried get at the nitty gritty of the actual greek terms, without paying attention to context and how it was used. Moreover, Luther had a bad habit(NOT THE ONE HE WORE) :) of ignoring other scriptures that supported this transformation at baptism. True regeneration where the old self dies with Christ and the new self rises with him as a partaker in the body of Christ.

    Infused grace is where the soul is regenerated and made for good works and imputed declares the person acquitted with no actual change in the person and puts a person so low that they can never do anything holy in the eyes of God since we are so pathetic.

    The Early Church fathers saw us Christians as infused with God's grace through the sacraments. Faith is the beginning to be able to choose the good over the evil and through baptism regeneration occurs, through confession and taking of the Eucharist we are washed clean not just covered over.

    The Catholic view sees mankind with hope to cooperate with God's Grace and we are entirely washed clean of sin and fully regenerated built to choose God and Love him, and the Protestant view sees man as so pathetic and incapable of doing anything right that God had to impute you with Grace since there is no way you can cooperate with God's Grace.

    The Protestant Reformation suffered much by putting too much of their backing on a Monk who had mental issues and egomaniacle tirades.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The Catholic Church teaches that at baptism (John 3:5) the soul passes from a state of original or inherited sin to a state of grace (Rom. 6:23). God does not merely declare the soul to be righteous or just in his sight. He makes the soul holy in itself by producing within it, through the activity of the Holy Spirit, a supernatural quality of spiritual goodness which is a true regeneration, renewal, or renovation (Tit. 3:5, 1 Pet. 3:21).

    This spiritual quality incorporates us in Christ as his very members (1 Cor. 6:15), makes us live by him as the branches exist by the very life of the vine to which they belong (John 15:5), and through him enables us to become in a mysterious way sharers in the divine nature itself (2 Pet. 1:4).

    The goodness, justice, righteousness, or holiness of a soul in a state of grace is, therefore, a reality and not merely a fiction. It is imparted to the soul by God, sanctifying it in its very nature. It is not merely imputed to the soul by God, leaving the soul still contaminated by the filth of sin.

    Does this help clarify my, or our position?

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wow, fast dinner, eh? Great pot pie! The crust was amazing.

    Imputeth vs. Infused.
    Martin Luther was limited in his view of Romans because of his extreme hate for himself personally and his general psychosis of nothing being good in humans. In Imputeth Grace, Luther tried to impart the legal term to be Acquitted. In this Acquittal, we are still sinful creatures that have no hope to cooperate with God's grace so God must Impute it to us. The Change is God's disposition towards man, Luther would contend, because he looked at humans as guilty as sin with no hope of conversion and God imputed us as not guilty despite the fact we won't change, which is opposed to the Catholic understanding that in this context imputeth or reputeth can carry a different connotation looking at the whole of scripture. Catholics see Grace as being infused in this meaning, because although we are prone to sin we can cooperate with His Grace and His Grace infused in us creates a real change.

    By infused Grace, we are transformed from sin and made anew in Christ rather than our sin being just covered over.

    We see throughout scripture where God's grace creates real change in Zaacheus, in Abraham, in David, in Paul in Peter and so on. And in me too!

    But Luther had not the advantages of modem scholarship. He belonged to an age when it was thought that the real meaning of the New Testament could be best ascertained by discovering the exact sense of the Greek language in which its books were originally written. Now even Protestant scholars are beginning to know better, for the Greek words took on a special sense when they were used by the New Testament writers to express Christian doctrines.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I was answering an old remark you made that was incorrect, so I corrected your history of THE CHURCH.

    I do have to do dinner, but this is fun. I'll see you tomorrow.

    IN Him,
    Chas

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online,

    Your translation of Romans 4:6 is transliterated. It is reputeth not imputeth.

    6 As David also termeth the blessedness of a man, to whom God reputeth justice without works:

    Or a

    6
    So also David declares the blessedness of the person to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    This should help you, my friend.

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas, you are beginning to swirl across the lecture hall; I thought we were going to address that specific verse? You seem to be shying away from a verse by verse study; why?

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Some secular sources of history.
    MSN Encarta:
    Until the break with the Eastern church (see Orthodox Church) in 1054 and the break with the Protestant churches in the 16th century, it is impossible to separate the history of the Roman Catholic Church from the history of Christianity in general.

    About.com
    .History of the Catholic Church
    As the oldest continuously operating organization, the Catholic Church has a distinguished history. The Church has also been involved in many of the historical events and movements of the past 2,000 years.

    How about wikipedia:
    The History of the Catholic Church is traced by the Church back to apostolic times and thus covers a period of nearly 2,000 years,

    How about History.com
    (Catholic)the largest single Christian body (see Christianity), composed of those Christians who acknowledge the supreme authority of the bishop of Rome, the pope, in matters of faith (see Papacy). The word catholic (Gr. katholikos) means â

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Brit,
    You're doing fine. Straight talk for Scriptures defeats any esoterica from the non-Scripture quoting intelligentia. Or as Jesus put it, At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. (Mt. 11: 25 GW)
    Chas and IHS,
    Infering alligance to the Apostles and not quoting from them rigorously tells two separate stories. Growing up in a Lutheran-Catholic neighborhood in the Midwest (a region, IHS, you would probably find more down to earth), my best playmates were Catholic (yes, I happened to be one of those Lutherans). We never re-enacted the Thirty Years War, but were respectfully curious of the others faith. That should be the rule of thumb here. Play nice. Sounding intellectually intimidating is rather smug and self-righteous, n'est pas?

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Chas said, (So, could you show me where your interpretation can be found prior to the year 1000??? Or even 1500 for that matter.)

    I am glad that we have come back full circle to our original topic but I find it odd that you should ask this question seeing that the Scriptures predate the year 1000? To find the interpretation of a particular verse let's consider this one shall we? It is actually a quotation from Psalm 32:2:

    "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness WITHOUT WORKS" (Romans 4:6).

    How do you read and understand this passage?

    I too appreciate your dialogue and your charitable attitude; let's pray that it stays this way throughout our discussion.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Brit72,

    I am waiting with baited breath to see you use your sword.

    This should be a lot of fun! I don't care to intimidate, but rather to illuminate the scriptures so that you might seek the fullness of Truth of Jesus Christ, which available only through Catholic Church who is the safeguard of the Apostolic faith and the original bible.

  • Chas »
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Here is the Catechism on infused Grace:

    1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who "does not know what his master is doing" to that of a friend of Christ - "For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you" - or even to the status of son and heir.

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