'Most Religious' College Students of 2009 Revealed

amaranth »

Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:35 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

My mother was raised Catholic and converted to protestantism days before I was born. I was raised protestant. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior when I was 3. Of my own volition. We have belonged to different churches in different denominations over the years - mostly because my dad was in the military and we moved a lot. One was even a Messianic denomination - I loved that one. The difference between the protestant churches we attended were not in WHAT they taught. As you so wrongly allege, the Bible does NOT change from one denomination to the next - if it is truly a church of God. Nor does the truth of God change. The teaching style of the pastor and the people in the congregation are the changes you notice from one church to the next. You find the same in the Catholic church. The teaching style of the pastor and the members of the congregation are generally what determines whether someone will attend a specific church or move on to find a different one.

Again, regardless of what denomination or church you belong to, God loves everyone and His salvation is freely given to anyone who asks for it and believes in Him.

amaranth »

Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:35 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 6

Zimmerk,

The Catholic teaching of purgatory is a complete contradiction of the Bible. To believe in purgatory is to completely refute the necessity and importance of Christ's sacrifice for us. In the Bible, it says that if we ask God for forgiveness, we are wiped clean. Our sins are washed away and we are as new. There is no reason for purgatory in light of this. The concept of purgatory is a heretic concept that trivializes His mercy and His love for us and tries to justify itself by bringing God down to the level of man. I've heard many Catholics say "I can forgive you for breaking that window, but you would still have to pay for the repairs. This is the same concept as purgatory. God forgives you for your sins, but you still have to make penance for them." A priest also told me that. This is a completely human concept and it is completely opposite of what Christ teaches. If purgatory existed, the thief that died along side Him would not have been able to join Jesus in Heaven that night. God's forgiveness and mercy are not the same as a human's. When God forgives you, He forgives EVERYTHING and wipes your slate clean. There is nothing left to atone for because He has made you new again in Him.

Episcopalians are not protestants - except in the Catholic view of protestants being anything separate from the Church. Protestants typically view Episopalians as "Catholic Light." Their doctrines and recent complete heresy against the word of God is not something that any true protestant subscribes to. If you knew anything about true protestantism, you would know that. There is no other church - that I am aware of - that has even thought of allowing same sex marriage or the ordaining of women as priests outside of the Episcopalian church.

Also, God is EVERYWHERE. He is all around us. He is with us wherever we are. We don't need to go to any church to encounter His presence. The purpose of church is to receive teaching and fellowship with others that believe the way we do. We certainly encounter a greater presence of God when in church and while worshipping God. My point is simply that church is not necessary to being in the presence of God. Many of your saints and countless every day people encounter God in a field, on a mountain, at home, in the car, etc.

I find it curious that most of the scriptures you quote (from books that do not exist in the protestant Bible) seem to talk about man and the church and not so much about God - unless, of course, God is praising said man or church. Most of the books that were removed by protestants were removed because they were redundant re-tellings of historical accounts that already existed elsewhere (Maccabbees) or they focused more on people and not on God. The protestant Bible is mostly about God and how to get to know God better. Not how wonderful the Catholic church is.

Prophet »

Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:46 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

"Prophet, nothing of Christ's Church conflicts with the Bible, as Protestantism does."

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Actually, yes, much of the catholic's teachings do conflict with the Scriptures. But I wouldn't expect those who are steped in catholism and spritually ignorant to catch on. The simple minded are easily misled.

zimmerk »

Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:21 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Also another clarification. The Church teaches that no one comes to the Father but through Christ. That Christ is the only mediator between between mankind and God the Father. If you think aha, that's a contradiction from what was said before, let it be known that you do not truly understand and know what the Church actually teaches on these matters. Then it will be your choice whether to follow up on it to learn more to truly understand, or to just ignore it and go on believing it does not matter anyway maintaining said misunderstanding. Peace and good bye for real this time :D Christ is my personal Lord and Redeemer! All glory to His Name!!

zimmerk »

Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:02 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

P.S. The last infallible teaching the Church made was when it declared it had no authority to ordain women as that would be contrary to Christ's actions as shown within the Bible itself.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:58 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Ok no more posts from me. I get the feeling my time is just being wasted. The path is narrow, and many do not care. Some claim that the Holy Spirit can not infallibly guide the Church of Christ, and keep it from the gates of Hell, but can infallibly guide individual believers all the same who end up bickering with their brothers and sisters to eventually separate themselves from one another due to their own inspirations from the Holy Spirit. The pope as a human is not infallible, and many have certainly been very sinful. The see of Peter however is infallible in matters of faith and matters declared for the universal Church in a solemn manner, by the power of God Himself. This is the one thing where free will is revoked on earth. The human pope has not the power to go against the power of God that maintains the infallibility of universal Church, present in Heaven and on Earth. The Truth remains the same and consistent for all time to be taught to the ends of the world. God maintains that the Truth remains in this world of fallible mankind incorruptibly. But to separate oneself from His Body (the Church) and the infallibility provided by the presence of the Holy Spirit, as protestants have done, leads to corruption of the truth they hold. There is only one Church. This Church, under the guidance of the Spirit, has preserved the infallible Bible. Protestants, who by separating themselves from the Church and the Spirit, now hold an abridged version of the Bible. The declaration of the Bible as inspired was a decision made under the category of faith, of which the Spirit ensures. The human members of the Church are fallible. The Church itself is infallible, as it is the Body of Christ under the direction of the Holy Spirit with Christ as head. Do not doubt the power of God. He has not left us, but remains with us to the end of time and beyond. I love you all! Please come home! In Christ, Zimmerk

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:55 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

The presence of the protestant churches declares that there are different truths according to the likes of ones wishes rather than what Christ intended. If the Holy Spirit could keep the Church from making an error in it's creation of the Bible, then It can keep the Church free from error in teachings of faith and morals down through the centuries. To claim otherwise would be blaspheming the Spirit, as well as having to live with the notion that there is no way to know that the Bible was inspired as there is no way we can truly know as there is no true authority recognizable to human beings to say so. The canon is not listed in the Bible. “While transcribed by men, the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Because of this, the text is infallible.” True. Could you please tell me the source of your claim that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit? If one was not there when they were written (if that would have made any difference), and no authority has the authority to claim that they are inspired, how do you know for absolute sure they are inspired. You can not claim that the Spirit tells you, as you have already rejected the notion that the Spirit can tell anyone which in doing so would make such a decision infallible, that no human being can declare.

No, the Catholic Church did not sell tickets into heaven during the middle ages. First, what was being sold were indulgences. Indulgences reduces time spent in purgatory. Souls go to purgatory since the Bible claims nothing unclean may enter Heaven. If a soul is in purgatory, they are already destined for Heaven. They have no fear of ever being sent to Hell as they have already received their individual judgment. Second, it wasn't the Church selling these indulgences, but corrupted clergy (and even non-clergy). Human beings and the physical structures are not the Church. Human being are members of the Church, which is visible on earth as well as present in Heaven with Christ head of this Church. It is not a denomination. People are free to protest it if they want, but at t heir own risk. Third, selling these were a mortal sin. It was a sin these human beings committed that was so grave that they disconnected themselves from Christ's grace. This grace can be reattained if the person goes to Christ for forgiveness and mercy truly sorry for their sin. Many clergy remained true to Christ and His Church and did not participate in this sin.

“Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and that He died to atone for all the sins of all of the people in the world and you believe that God exists in each of the forms of the Trinity”; “In the Bible, it says that our job in Heaven in to glorify and worship God for eternity”. I am happy you retain some notion of Christian teaching. No one claimed that humans becomes angels. The Bible says that the saints in Heaven “are like the angels”, but not actually angels literally.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:55 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Amaranth: Christ's one and only Sacrifice is present at every Mass. When the priest speaks the words of institution in persona Christi that Christ gave to us, the bread and wine become the true Body and Blood of Christ. We are literally standing next to Him while He is making His sacrifice on the cross 2000 years ago during the Mass. Time has no meaning to God. Many saints have actually had the vision of Christ's Blood dripping down into the cup during Mass. Also, read my posts down that refute that protestants notion of sola fide that was created in the 1500's while also explaining that the Church teaches that one can NOT EARN their way to Heaven. Works alone will not get you to Heaven. Faith alone will not get you to Heaven. Only grace alone, which comes from only Christ, in which faith is the internal exhibition of that grace while works are the external exhibition. Scripture literally says one is not saved by faith alone. James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In the theology of Christ's Church, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either). Most of you condemn the Church when you are ignorant of what it actually teaches, along with misconceptions of teachings that you are aware of. Again, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. It is Christ's Church (the Body of Christ) in it's fullest, holding and preaching all of the Good News Christ taught. There is only one Truth.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:53 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

"Geez, get filled with the Holy Ghost and maybe you could see something beyond the regurtiated lies of the catholic church." I took this to be hate when apparently you cursed the name of Jesus, but misspelled it for it to be less than sinful? I have read through all of your posts for the last month. The common thing in all of them appears to be your tone of voice, and which just about all of your posts were attacks on the Church. It seems to be your obsession. And you seem to keep claiming what Catholics believe even after being corrected as to what they actually believe. If I am wrong in my account, then I apologize.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

The Orthodox hold the same beliefs as Christ's Church, but are schismatic while the separation still exits due to ignorance and hard feelings on both sides. No one has as personal relationship with Christ than being in true communion with Him through His Body and Blood. His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity is present in every Catholic and Orthodox parish. He is resurrected, so there is no separation between His flesh and soul. And read the lives of the Saints. They are given to us by the Church as good role models of being Christian and their personal relationship with Him. These should not be confused with the concept of the sainthood of all the elect in general. Just as the ordained priesthood is not to be confused with the general priesthood of all believers, with Christ as head Priest of all. I guess none of what I am saying really matters as you still cling to the heresy of sola scriptura while still rejecting part of the Bible itself. The deuterocanonical books you have removed from the Old Testament are just as infallible as the deuterocanonical books in the NT of which Luther wished to delete (Hebrews, James, II Peter, II, III John, Jude, Apocalypse, Mark 13:9-20, Luke 22:43-44, John 7:53-8:11). If you wish to delete parts of the OT, you should at least be consistent and delete these in the NT as well since they were selected to be in the Bible under the same criteria as the ones in the OT that you now call Apocrypha.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Prophet, nothing of Christ's Church conflicts with the Bible, as Protestantism does. The Church is in full agreement with the Bible, and the early Christians saw no contradiction between the Church and the Bible when Pope Damasus made a decree on what was to be in the Bible and what wasn't; the canon of what, from then on was known the Bible, was created. After that, the scriptures in their entirety were considered infallible until the 1500's. The Gospel existed before Scriptures. It is impossible to contain the Gospel solely to print. It would take encyclopedias to write the full Gospel, and the Gospel must also be experienced. One needs to be "Born again" so to say, with a personal relationship. The Church has not added more Scripture in addition to the Bible like the Mormons did, and not deleted as the protestants have. Sola fide and sola scriptura are not in the Bible, but man-made doctrines that never existed or known before the 1500's. Also if Scripture was to be the sole authority, He would have went ahead and written it Himself before His one and only Sacrifice. The Mormans are a further descendant of the protestant churches. They have gone so far in their protest of Christ's Teaching that they have left behind the name of Christian completely. I have also met one person who still claims to be Christian, but has rejected the Bible completely as he refused to accept Christ's Church as succeeding the Apostles. Rather than accept it, he chose to claim that the Apostles themselves were corrupt and disciples of Satan than Christ. The Unitarians have rejected the Holy Trinity. Protestantism is a slippery slope as anyone can "prove" anything by using Scriptures under their own private interpretation (rather than that of the 2 millenia old Apostolic Church given authority by Christ and true guidance from the Spirit). Lately they are starting to accept sodomy, same-sex "marriages", etc. Christ provided an authority for interpretation, but is now rejected by many. Supposedly all of the interpretations in protestantism come from the Holy Spirit, yet then the Holy Spirit keeps contradicting itself. The Bible is now being used to support heresies by many, under the guidance of the Spirit of course. Apostolic succession is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Orthodox church. The Body and Blood of true life of Christ is only present in these churches, of which one must not refuse to partake to have eternal life rather than damnation.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

"I have already proven to you that we are not praying to dead people. And you still doubt the power of God. There is a difference between those who live on earth still, and those who live in the full union with God in Heaven. I can't force you to believe in Christ's gospel. You have deadened your heart. Your hatred comes from Satan, not Christ."

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Yes, hatred comes from Satan. That is why there is no hate in my comments, just truth. If I can communicate with spirits in heaven, then I can communicate with spirits of people here on earth. As you have pointed out, we are all alive in Jesus.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:15 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

"You find the Church in the Bible, but it is not restricted only to the Bible as the Bible is not the full Gospel."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mormons say the same thing. You're in good company, eh? Actually, God reveres His Word above Himself, that's how important the Scriptures are. Anything outside of the Bible, if it claims to be of God, must measure up to the Scriptures.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

You find the Church in the Bible, but it is not restricted only to the Bible as the Bible is not the full Gospel. The Catholic Church did not create the Bible, under the guidance and infallibility of the Holy Spirit, for it to be the sole authority. In the quotes I listed, take a look at the dates as they the earliest began in the first century itself. I love you! May God grant you the understanding that you seek. Peace, Christ is Lord and Savior †

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:04 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

"Since, according to my opinion, the grades here in the Church, of bishops, presbyters, deacons, are imitations of the angelic glory, and of that economy which, the Scriptures say, awaits those who, following the footsteps of the apostles, have lived in perfection of righteousness according to the Gospel. For these taken up in the clouds, the apostle writes, will first minister [as deacons], then be classed in the presbyterate, by promotion in glory (for glory differs from glory) till they grow into 'a perfect man.'" Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 13 (A.D. 202).

"And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? Which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit. Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, 'This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness.' And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony." Clement of Alexandria, Who is the rich man that shall be saved?, 42 (A.D. 210).

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

"For, since ye are subject to the bishop as to Jesus Christ, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order, by believing in His death, ye may escape from death. It is therefore necessary that, as ye indeed do, so without the bishop ye should do nothing, but should also be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all. For they are not ministers of meat and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They are bound, therefore, to avoid all grounds of accusation [against them], as they would do fire." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 2 (c. A.D. 110).

"And do ye also reverence your bishop as Christ Himself, according as the blessed apostles have enjoined you. He that is within the altar is pure, wherefore also he is obedient to the bishop and presbyters: but he that is without is one that does anything apart from the bishop, the presbyters, and the deacons. Such a person is defiled in his conscience, and is worse than an infidel. For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ Of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as the holy Stephen did to the blessed James, Timothy and Linus to Paul, Anencletus and Clement to Peter? He, therefore, that will not yield obedience to such, must needs be one utterly without God, an impious man who despises Christ, and depreciates His appointments." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, 7 (c. A.D. 110).

"I must not omit an account of the conduct also of the heretics--how frivolous it is, how worldly, how merely human, without seriousness, without authority, without discipline, as suits their creed…At one time they put novices in office; at another time, men who are bound to some secular employment; at another, persons who have apostatized from us, to bind them by vainglory, since they cannot by the truth. Nowhere is promotion easier than in the camp of rebels, where the mere fact of being there is a foremost service. And so it comes to pass that today one man is their bishop, to-morrow another; to-day he is a deacon who to-morrow is a reader; to-day he is a presbyter who tomorrow is a layman. For even on laymen do they impose the functions of priesthood." Tertullian, On Prescription Against Heretics, 41 (c. A.D. 200).

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:03 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

"Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers." Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 1 (A.D. 250).

"Therefore the power of remitting sins was given to the apostles, and to the churches which they, sent by Christ, established, and to the bishops who succeeded to them by vicarious ordination." Firmilian, To Cyprian, Epistle 75[74]:16 (A.D. 256).

"Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed…Let nothing exist among you that may divide you ; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, 6 (c. A.D. 110).

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst Of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men,--a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. …To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine…Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian, Prescription against the Heretics, 33 (A.D. 200).

"And that you may still be more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? Which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit." Clement of Alexandria, Who is the rich man that shall be save?, 42 (A.D. 210).

"We are not to credit these men, nor go out from the first and the ecclesiastical tradition; nor to believe otherwise than as the churches of God have by succession transmitted to us." Origen, Commentary on Matthew (post A.D. 244).

amaranth »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:01 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

The difference between Catholics and Protestants is simple.

Protestants believe in having a relationship with God through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus and that this relationship is more important than what we do on Sundays. The relationship with God is more important than the legalities of religion.

Catholics believe in religion and what their Church and men (priests) tell them about God. Some have a relationship with God, but that doesn't seem so important to them. Catholics also tend to believe that a man (priest) can take away their sins better than God can and that reading the Bible and doing good works will get you into Heaven.

While faith without works is useless, indeed, faith is all that is required for entrance into Heaven. If you believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God and that He died to atone for all the sins of all of the people in the world and you believe that God exists in each of the forms of the Trinity, than you will go to Heaven. Period. Regardless of what denomination you belong to - or don't belong to. Regardless of what church you attend. And regardless of the good (or bad) works you do in your time on earth.

The Catholic Church actually SOLD TICKETS INTO HEAVEN during the middle ages. It is a church founded by men. Even though they were blessed by God to start that church, men still founded it and men ARE fallible. Repeatedly in the Bible you will find that ALL of God's chosen people are flawed. All of them. Why? Because they are human. No one is perfect except for God. No one can absolve you of your sins except for God. While transcribed by men, the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Because of this, the text is infallible.

The Bible says that angels are beings that were created by God separate from humans and that they are below humans on the hierarchy of beings. They are the messengers of God. Their job is to deliver His messages and to worship Him. Humans DO NOT become angels when we die. Nor is it our job in Heaven to watch over and intercede for our loved ones still living. In the Bible, it says that our job in Heaven in to glorify and worship God for eternity. He hears our prayers and Jesus is the only intercessor we need. Our friends and family praying for us is completely different than asking dead people to pray for us. In the Bible, it says "wherever two or more are gathered in my name, there am I also and I will hear their prayers." In the Bible, it says that "the dead do not speak." If the dead do not speak, then why would you ask them for guidance or assistance? Asking people beyond the grave for guidance or assistance is very much the same as asking a spirit for guidance or assistance in a seance. Why? Because, after they die, they are no more than spirits. Duh. It is well and good to admire the saints of the Bible. However, to ask them for favor and intercession is ridiculous.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:00 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

"Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: 'And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained a there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.'" Hegesippus, Memoirs, fragment in Eusebius Ecclesiatical History, 4:22 (A.D. 180).

"True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:59 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.)

Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

Early Church Writings

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan").

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 12:9 – in the context of spiritual discipline, the author says we have had earthly fathers (referring to the ordained leaders) to discipline us and we respected them.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:50 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:49 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word "foundation" proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.
Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words "household," "Bride of the Lamb," the "new Jerusalem" are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:45 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus' Ministry and Authority
Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).
Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).
Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.
Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.
Num 16:28 - the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.
John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.
John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.
John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.
John 12:49 - The father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.
John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.
John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.
John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.
John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.
Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ's ministry and authority.
Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:37 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

I have provided much scripture in defense of Christianity. You have provided very little if none. You didn't even bother to look up the scriptures I listed and only read and responded to the verses when I actually posted the verses themselves rather than their location. Also, the Church and it's mission existed long before the Bible was ever created. The visible Church was created on Pentecost.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

I have already proven to you that we are not praying to dead people. And you still doubt the power of God. There is a difference between those who live on earth still, and those who live in the full union with God in Heaven. I can't force you to believe in Christ's gospel. You have deadened your heart. Your hatred comes from Satan, not Christ.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

From my observation, I've noted that the catholics on here are very well versed in catholicism, but have very little understanding of the Scriptures themselves. Maybe being catholic is more important than being a Christian?

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

Catholicism was created in the 4th century.
There is no proof that apostles "passed their authority on to bishops", but there is proof that all who are Christians are His Church.
That all who are His are endowed with all His power and authority.
But the catholic church continues to deny the Body of Christ.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

"No you can not communicate with the soul on the other side of the earth, as if you were god. I suggest you give up this heresy. Souls in Heaven are fully joined with God in His glory, and by His power and assent allows the saints in Heaven to witness those of this world."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First, It as much heresy as praying to dead people.
Second, we are fully joined with God in His glory here on earth, and we share in His power here. " Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Do you not realize that we are not physical people? We are spirits. Therefor, according to the laws of catholicism, if I am able to speak to my spiritual brother in heaven, I am able to speak to my spiritual brother in China. Or is the requirement that they physically be in my presence (or by mail, phone, email, etc, which are all physical) in order for it to effective?

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:49 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

Oops, looks like I deleted a post by accident. Just re-posting it.

"Prophet, you seem to carry a great hatred for Catholic Church. Please do not let it harden your heart. What is known as the Catholic Church today is not a denomination. What it is, is the Body of Christ, present both on earth and in Heaven. It is the supernatural kingdom of truth, in the world, though not of it (John 18:36) the formation of which began, after the fall of man, with God's plan and desire of eventual redemption of mankind, and of which it's foundation was completed and made visible by the merit of Christ. Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: "Refer it to the Church" (Matt. 18:17). The head of which is Christ Jesus, seated at the right hand of God the Father. It is continued to be known today by it's nature of catholicity as it was known by the early Christians (as shown in quotes from the early Church) without interruption in the one Faith and Truth. Protestants, knowingly or unknowingly, protest against this Body and Kingdom of Christ."

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:41 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

Oh, before I leave. Christ maintains His nature of being both 100% God and 100% man for the rest of eternity. Just as we shall have a body for the rest of eternity after the final Judgment and resurrection. When He transfigured, He was still both fully man and fully God. He allowed His true and full glory be made visible and apparent to Peter, James, and John. He was talking with Elijah and Moses as both man and God, as flesh and divine.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:31 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

My posts were made at the insistence of the Holy Spirit. The path is narrow. Most choose to go their own way rather than truly that of Christ, as those in Scripture who left Jesus when they refused to accept His teaching of the Bread of life. In Mark 14, verses 22 through 26, we hear the words of institution, "And as they were eating He took bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them and said, 'Take, this is my body.' And He took a cup and when He had given thanks, He gave it to them and they drank all of it and He said to them, 'This is my blood of the New Covenant which is poured out for many. Truly I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.'" I love you. I truly hope you see the light of Truth one day. God bless you!

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:16 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

No you can not communicate with the soul on the other side of the earth, as if you were god. I suggest you give up this heresy. Souls in Heaven are fully joined with God in His glory, and by His power and assent allows the saints in Heaven to witness those of this world.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:08 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

1. Jesus founded One Church, and said that it should remain One. He did not want a divided and constantly splitting Church.

2. Jesus promised that the Church would be preserved in truth by the Holy Spirit and that He would remain with it until the "end of the age."

3. The Church Jesus founded was led by Apostles, who passed their Authority on to Bishops.

4. The earliest writings of the Church confirm that it took a Catholic view of Authority, the Sacraments, Church Order, Real Presence in Communion, Regenerative Baptism, Prayer for the Dead, the significance of Mary, the means of Salvation, and other doctrines.

5. There is no evidence of ANY group of Christians holding to the main Protestant teachings before 1520. Protestant teachings are therefore New to Christianity, even though they claim to be derived from Scripture. We know of, and have solid written evidence of, the beliefs of even tiny heretical groups from the first century to the present. These include:
Gnostics - Who believed matter was evil
Montanists - Who forbade marriage and anything worldly
Marcionites - Who rejected the Gospels as false
Monarchianists - Who denied the reality of the Trinity
Arians, - Who said Jesus was not fully God but a creation.
Pelagians - Who denied Original Sin and the need for Salvation
Donatists - Who refused to readmit Apostate Christians
Collyridians - Who sacrificed to Mary
Nestorians - Who said Christ had two personhoods.
Apollinarians - Who said Jesus was not truly human.
And many, many more. But of any group holding Protestant beliefs we have no trace whatsoever.

6. New teachings, beyond those held by the Church are condemned in scripture.

7. The Protestant justification for the truth of their belief demands that Jesus's promises that He would remain with His Church forever, and that the Holy Spirit would guide it in truth, were false, since according to them, God abandoned the Church to error before 1520. This is not consistent with God's promises.

8. Since Protestant teachings have not been preached through all ages, as demanded by Scripture, Protestant teachings must, on this count alone, be false.

9. Only one Church was founded on the Apostles, remains in communion with the See of Peter, maintains Apostolic Succession, and has fulfilled the warrant of Scripture by preaching the SAME DOCTRINE to ALL GENERATIONS, for 2,000 years from Pentecost to the Present. The CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:31 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Isaiah 13:9-10 does talk about the dead talking.....to each other! lol.

And it's sad at how carnal you are that you don't even comprehend something as simple as the great cloud of witnesses.
Hebrews 12:1 talks about being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. And what is that? In Hebrews 11 it gives example after example of the faith of the Old Testament patriarchs. THAT is the great cloud of witnesses. The witness of the power of faith, not literal people. Geez, get filled with the Holy Ghost and maybe you could see something beyond the regurtiated lies of the catholic church.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Jesus preached to the spirits in prison (hell) because He, Himself, was a spirit at the time.
The transfiguration just proves my point. Jesus didn't talk to Moses and Elijah while He was in the flesh. That is why He was transfigured.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:16 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

Try not to confuse saints of God with the 24 elders. The 24 elders, like the creatures, are created beings, and not the spirits of previously living people.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

"Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Notice how the prayers of the saints are being presented to Christ by other occupants in Heaven."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is being presented by the 24 elders, not saints. The prayers are from the saints on earth.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

By the way, Saul's sin wasn't in asking Samuel about the future. He didn't ask Samuel about the future, he simply asked what he should do....like catholics do with the saints.

Prophet »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:10 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

So I can communicate directly to someone on the other side of the world via my spirit. Interesting.

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:56 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

No one prays to dead saints, because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17).

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Notice how the prayers of the saints are being presented to Christ by other occupants in Heaven. Intercession is occurring by our elders, those who have passed before us, and who "are like angels" as Jesus put it.

Rev. 8:4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Other quotes: Jeremiah 15:1 Then the LORD said to me, "Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my heart would not turn toward this people. Send them out of my sight, and let them go!

2 Maccabees 15:11-16 He armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief.What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews.Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority.And Onias spoke, saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God." Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus:"Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries."

zimmerk »

Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:10 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

Even though you are adding onto the definition of necromancy than what it actually is, it doesn't matter anyway as we are not speaking to the dead. Perhaps you will listen to Jesus. Mark 12:24-27 Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

Those who hold to "soul sleep" assert that once a person dies, he enters a state of unconsciousness until the Second Coming. Some use this claim to argue that saints can't intercede for us, since they supposedly are asleep.

Isaiah 14:9-10 tells us that the dead are agitated and are speaking. 1 Samuel 28 tells of Samuel conversing with Saul after his death, even though he does so for the sinful purpose of acquiring forbidden knowledge. In 1 Peter 3:19, Jesus preaches to souls in prison. Why preach to sleeping spirits? Talk about a bored audience! Try telling the rich man in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31) not to worry, since he is just sleeping.

If the dead are asleep, one must ask how Jesus communicated with them during his transfiguration (Mt 17:3), how they offer our prayers to God (Rv 5:8), how they cry out in a loud voice in praise of God (Rv 7:10), and how these sleeping, unconscious souls cry out, "How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgement and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?" (Rv 6:10). That is a pretty windy statement for someone asleep! Those that have died are more alive than we are, and they surround us like a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1).

The soul is the subject of human consciousness and freedom; soul and body together form one unique human nature. Each human soul is individual and immortal, immediately created by God. The soul does not die with the body, from which it is separated by death, and with which it will be reunited in the final resurrection.

Luke 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Prophet »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:17 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

The true Church that was founded by Jesus bears no other name than His own. It's not called pentacostal, or baptist, or presbyterian, or even catholic. If the catholics so choose to deny Christ's body, then they are none of His.

Prophet »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

So if I can speak to the spirits of dead people, then I can communicate with someone halfway across the world spiritually. Right?

Prophet »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

Necrmancy is the "conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future OR INFLUENCING THE COURSE OF EVENTS."

The saints cannot hear our prayers. Those who pray to dead people are nothing more than mediums.

HyperionOverseer »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:54 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

Zimmerk

that tells us alot! well done!

zimmerk »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:12 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

Some quotes from the early Christians:

“Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...'” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

"But [it has, on the other hand, been shown], that the preaching of the Church is everywhere consistent, and continues in an even course, and receives testimony from the prophets, the apostles, and all the disciples…For in the Church," it is said, "God hath set apostles, prophets, teachers,' and all the other means through which the Spirit works; of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church, but defraud themselves of life through their perverse opinions and infamous behaviour. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:24 (A.D. 180).

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters…It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord's Scriptures. For the Church has been planted as a garden (paradisus) in this world; therefore says the Spirit of God, 'Thou mayest freely eat from every tree of the garden,' that is, Eat ye from every Scripture of the Lord; but ye shall not eat with an uplifted mind, nor touch any heretical discord." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:20 (A.D. 180).

zimmerk »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:43 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was "declared righteous" before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by "believing" faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith "working in love" (Galatians 5:6). Isn't this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by "works of law" (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He's condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn't justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham's life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God's providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he's "declared righteous" (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.

The Catholic Church has never taught we "earn" our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can't earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

The reformer's position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years.

Where does our assistance come from to reach our heavenly destination? Philippians 4:13 says it all, "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."

zimmerk »

Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:41 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

During the Protestant Reformation in the early 1500s, a familiar term regarding salvation was "sola fide," Latin for "by faith alone." The reformers, at that time, accused the Catholic Church of departing from the "simple purity of the Gospel" of Jesus Christ. They stated it was faith alone, without works of any kind, that brought a believer to eternal life. They defined this faith as "the confidence of man, associated with the certainty of salvation, because the merciful Father will forgive sins because of Christ's sake."

This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church's teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.

All who claim the title "Christian" will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.

If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word "faith," we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase "faith alone" is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.

The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God's truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it's certainly an attention grabber.

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was "born again" it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by "remaining in Him" (John 15:1-11).

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a "waiver" that exempts them from these verses.