Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Education|Wed, Aug. 26 2009 10:45 AM EDT

Students Challenged to Study Evolution, Think for Themselves

By Nathan Black|Christian Post Reporter

As students step foot on campus for another school year, an intelligent design proponent has offered a few tips for the millions who will face the teaching of evolution in their science classrooms.

Tip number one, "never opt out of learning evolution," says Casey Luskin, co-founder of the Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA) Center, according to the Discovery Institute.

"In fact, learn about evolution every chance you get."

Having attended public schools from kindergarten through his master’s degree at the University of California, San Diego, Luskin was taught a "biased and one-sided origins" curriculum – basically, the neo-Darwinian theory.

There was virtually no debate or dialogue on the theory when he was learning it and "neo-Darwinian evolution was always taken as a given."

But Luskin does not regret having studied evolution as much as he did. He says the more evolutionary biology he took, the more he became convinced that the theory "was based upon unproven assumptions, contradictory methodologies, and supported weakly by the data."

So he encourages students not to be afraid to study evolution.

His advice comes as a new report reveals that the treatment of biological evolution in state science standards improved dramatically over the last decade. According to the National Center for Science Education, which defends the teaching of evolution in public schools, 40 U.S. states – including the District of Columbia – received satisfactory grades for the treatment of evolution in their state science standards. Only 31 states had received such grades in Lawrence S. Lerner's 2000 study Good Science, Bad Science, conducted for the Fordham Foundation.

Meanwhile, five states – Alabama, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Texas, and West Virginia – received an "F" and another six states received the grade of "D."

Texas was recently in the national spotlight when the state board of education revised science standards in March to encourage students to "critique" and examine "all sides" of scientific theories.

Denouncing the inclusion of "creationist jargon" – language to justify the use of teaching material that casts doubt on the theory of evolution – in science standards, the NCSE report's authors, Louise S. Mead and Anton Mates, believe creationists have strategized to insert more "innocuous language" such as "critical analysis" and "strengths and weaknesses" into the standards.

Mead and Mates contend in their report, "It is simply not true that there are credible scientific alternatives to evolution, nor that evolutionary theory has 'weaknesses' that make it unlikely to be true, nor that scientific work has been done that casts doubt upon it. Students should be left in no doubt on this score."

Luskin thinks otherwise.

He challenges students to be critical in their thinking when approaching evolution and be proactive in learning about other credible scientific viewpoints that are likely censored by teachers.

"[Y]ou must be careful to always think for yourself," he cautions. "Everyone wants to be 'scientifically literate,' but the Darwin lobby pressures people by redefining 'scientific literacy' to mean 'acceptance of evolution' rather than 'an independent mind who understands science and forms its own informed opinions.'"

For Luskin, critical thinking and his own independent study led him to conclude that neo-Darwinian evolution was a set of questionable assumptions, and not facts.

He also discovered that there were "credible scientific views that dissent from neo-Darwinism" that were never disclosed to him.

"Yes, take courses advocating evolution. But also read material from credible Darwin skeptics to learn about other viewpoints. Only then can you truly make up your mind in an informed fashion."

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  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "His advice comes as a new report reveals that the treatment of biological evolution in state science standards improved dramatically over the last decade. According to the National Center for Science Education, which defends the teaching of evolution in public schools, 40 U.S. states – including the District of Columbia – received satisfactory grades for the treatment of evolution in their state science standards. Only 31 states had received such grades in Lawrence S. Lerner's 2000 study Good Science, Bad Science, conducted for the Fordham Foundation."

    Florida, where I live, used to have the worst public school science standards in America, and we of course were given the grade F. One of our problems was the word "evolution" could not be found anywhere in our standards.

    Very recently a group of scientists and science teachers (the experts) completely rewrote Florida's science standards, and they made evolution one of the big ideas of science. Guess who fought these new standards? That's right. The Christian fought the improved teaching of evolution and they fought it desperately in every way they could. The Christians lost and they lost badly. No thanks to anti-science Christians, our new standards were given the grade A.

  • Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:13 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Another nail in the Creationust's myth

    a group of international scientists has recovered the partial skeleton of an extraordinary prehuman creature who lived in an area of East Africa 4.4 million years ago. Her bones were found in a trove of fossils just as old, revealing the earliest known stage in the long drama of human evolution.

    Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/01/MNAQ19TAD8.DTL#ixzz0SmOSbDYw

  • Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:30 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Hi klm,
    With respect to creation and biology, the God of the Bible required 6 days to complete His work. However, He does intervene in our lives in other ways that don't affect the patterns of biological life. So there is no problem as you speculated.

    In addition, CSI and Information Theory provides the tools for observing and measuring which places ID into the realm of science.

    The difference is between worldview presuppositions that directs what and how observations and measurements are interpreted. Your presuppositions are limited to matter and energy and excludes origins, mine includes those plus Intelligence and origins.

    We've gone through this and just circle around. You want to believe and insist ID is not science. I, as many qualified scientists, realize ID is science and has merit to be included in education (ID only, not including creation science).

    So I would suggest that this thread stop since we are at loggerheads.

    Take care and God Bless
    Hawk

  • Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:46 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    HAWK wrote "klm, What I said was we were dealing with the same data that we each posted or referenced."

    That's what I thought you were saying.

    But no, that's wrong, we are *not* making our arguments based on the same information. I've actually read all of those books about evolution that I've listed. You might find some of them interesting, if you have the time.

    As for the book and author that you mention: I'm not likely to slog through 600 pages of more-of-the-same, just like Behe et al. It's fundamentally impossible for that sort of work to be science.

    Science is based on the postulate that the world can be understood by observing and measuring... guess what? The world! An intangible intelligence that intervenes at will (without pattern nor precipitating factors) is prima facie outside the realm of science, and always will be.

  • Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    klm,

    What I said was we were dealing with the same data that we each posted or referenced. The difference between us is our opposing worldviews (system of presuppostions) that we use to interpret the data in front of us. You are firm in your belief system and I likewise. The real question is which belief system best matches reality.

    Take care and maybe we may have opportunity to chat again on another thread. I just began reading Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer; perhaps you may pick up a copy and read it yourself and we will have a more common ground upon which to discuss life.

    Hawk

  • Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    steve,

    take care and I'm sure we'll chat again.

    Hawk

  • Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Hawk wrote "When klm and I were discussing biological evolution we were equally equipped with the same information to discern the truth."

    I have no way of knowing what you know but didn't talk about. But what you *did* talk about showed a profound misunderstanding of fundamental evolutionary concepts, and little awareness of the basic facts.

    I said I wasn't going to post on this thread again, but I can't let pass unchallenged the absurd claim that your understanding of biology is in any way comparable to mine.

  • Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Cheers Hawk, always good to chat with you.

  • Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Gases expand to fill their space..."

    Flatulence proves this.

    Not if its under the duvet.

  • Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    steve,

    thank you for your response.
    When klm and I were discussing biological evolution we were equally equipped with the same information to discern the truth. Our worldviews took us to different conclusions. You have studied cosmology in college while I have only done a survey of conclusions and lack the details. It was a mistake for me to even attempt to go into the detail your requested. So I appreciate your explanations. I have not and do not profess to be an expert on cosmology, but biology I have done much more studying.

    I don't mind quotes but much prefer to read the article and provide the concluding quotes. With biology this is easy to do. The literature is more difficult to come by in cosmology on the Internet. However, there are some sources I have learned to trust and don't mind using. The quote you said to get your money back was the first time I used that cite and will question the content more carefully.

    On another subject. We discussed health care a couple weeks ago. Here is an interesting news coverage article by John Stossel, a libertarian reporter. I believe he concludes with what we both concluded with.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GMKK_fWKg

  • Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:08 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Gases expand to fill their space..." Flatulence proves this. hide

  • Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hi H

    "What caused gravity in the first place?"

    Gravity came into existence at 10E -42 Seconds after the big bang, it was the first interaction to break away from the other three (next was the strong force followed by electromagnetism and the weak) as the universe cooled. A good analogy is to think of the four interactions origin as being due to symmetry breaking in the super force that existed prior to cooling.

    "(gases) they don't clump together".

    Well actually they do,they clump together in space because they are so large, light years across and therefore have enormous mass (good old gravity),go and look at the hundreds of pictures that Hubble has taken of them try NGC 24 67 for example. So you say it does not occur, I say it does occur and can show you ,that's observational science that is.

    "- Hydrogen gas in outer space does not clump together. *Harwit's research disproves the possibility that hydrogen gas in outer space can clump together."

    See above and ask for your money back.

    "A while ago I asked you about discussing the flagella motor and you backed away. I will backaway from any further discussion on the cosmos at this time. I trust you will understand."

    Don't recall that but I don't do biology(unless its connected with geology etc..) much, I stick to my field, around here some prefer to be jack of all trades and king of none. Thats not me.

    "You may not care for quotes, but quotes from experts are acceptable tools for arguments."

    Only because I find that when I try to discuss the issues the quotes raise the person quoting them appears to not know much about the subject, this raises the question, how does the person giving the quote know it is actually correct, they can't (I like the phrase experts by the way ..LOL).

    BW

    Steve

  • Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Hi steve,

    What caused the gravity in the first place. Gases expand to fill their space, they don't clump together. Cooling is theorized, but the gases are flying out on a straight trajectory in a vacuum, what was the initial motive to cause them to change course? Was there cold dark matter flying out there with the gases that provided for the gravity? Where are these first generation Population III stars?

    - Hydrogen gas in outer space does not clump together. *Harwit's research disproves the possibility that hydrogen gas in outer space can clump together.

    Sorry I misread your question wrt to the solar system. My answer remains the same. I have not read an acceptable story yet that doesn't have huge problems. God created the heavens and earth to provide us a unique planet per the anthropic principle. How He did it I don't know and neither do the cosmologists, with or without God. Just a lot of speculation built upon controversial foundations.

    A while ago I asked you about discussing the flagella motor and you backed away. I will backaway from any further discussion on the cosmos at this time. I trust you will understand.

    You may not care for quotes, but quotes from experts are acceptable tools for arguements.

    Even though Hoyle's alternative had its problems, Hoyle stated the matter quite succinctly when he wrote:
    "As a result of all this, the main efforts of investigators have been in papering over holes in the big bang theory, to build up an idea that has become ever more complex and cumbersome. ...When a pattern of facts becomes set against a theory, experience shows that the theory rarely recovers"

    "When one steps away from all the Big Bang propaganda, and carefully examines the foundation on which the concept itself rests, there is legitimate reason for concern. The theory, it appears, is haphazardly nestled on, and teeters on the brink of, some incredible assumptions—“incredible” in that each unstable assumption is built on top of another equally volatile supposition. It seems that, as this stack mounts, each subsequent assumption casts a shadow that hides from public view the visible uncertainties of the preceding one. ..The Big Bang, as it turns out, is scientifically flawed." "The idea of a "brief hiatus" of sorts for galaxy formation is one of those ad hoc, quickly improvised hypotheses that had to be added to keep the Big Bang Theory alive. There certainly is no physical basis for it—which was what Dr. Hoyle’s "dull as ditchwater" comment was intended to reflect. A "bang" does not allow for starts and stops.-- Bert Thompson, Ph.D., Brad Harrub, Ph.D., and Branyon May

  • Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    No copy and paste= people having to answer from the studying they have done themslves not just using random quotes to build some sort of arguement about a subject they don't know much about.

  • Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "No quotes(like my posts)" No copy and paste = no answer hide

  • Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Darn you beat me to it viking, that thought came to me at work today, its amazing that we don't see the obvious sometimes.

  • Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:53 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    What caused the gravity force to counter normal gas activity velocity in a vacuum?

    Wow! Is this question implying that gravity doesn't work in a vacuum? Better go back to Galileo. No theorizing involved just observed phenomena.

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:34 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hawk

    "You asked what my explanation for origins of the cosmos is"

    Never did, I asked about the origin of the solar system, want to keep it to soemthing we can be more sure about, I would be interested to hear that. So what is the origin of the solar system? Nice and simple. No quotes(like my posts) etc..just what you think.
    S

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:02 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Hi steve,

    thanks for the response. You did confirm the first hopeful monster regarding the cosmic egg. Unknown origin and defying something created from nothing.

    Invoking gravity in light of the velocities of expansion is a long shot. Particulary high velocity gases forming into stars. What caused the gravity force to counter normal gas activity velocity in a vacuum? Order being created from an explosition? You're theorizing, correct?
    There seem to be a number of problems with the current theory: http://www.evolution-facts.org/Ev-V1/1evlch02.htm

    You asked what my explanation for origins of the cosmos is. To be honest, I have read both the evolutionist and creationist positions and I have problems with all of them. I'll stay confident that God created the heavens and earth and not be too concerned with the details at this time. :-)

    Many of the secular cosmologists have troubles with the Big Bang but come up with other theories that have their own problems. "Let's face it: the Big Bang is a survivor. It never is falsified-only modified. David Lindley compared the efforts to revive existing cosmological theories with Ptolemy's work-around and fix-it solutions to an Earth-centered Solar System. Equations can be manipulated ad infinitum to make "messy" theories work, but Lindley warned, "skepticism is bound to arise."

    "We must urge caution when a theory, claiming to be scientific, escapes falsification by continual modification with ad hoc, stopgap measures."

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:18 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Hi Hawk thanks for the reply, just going to cut and paste, but only to help me answer with a few thoughts of my own...

    "As I understand the Big Bang there was an 'expansion' that forced the singularity particles outward."

    I only know about after the big bang which occurred after the creation of the universe (some people get the two confused). Never heard of singularity particles so can't comment.

    "Somehow, these particles in their travels outward combined to form hydrogen and helium."

    No, in the initial enegy of the big bang, various particle such as leptons (electrons) and hadrons (groupings of quarks making up protons)form...E=MC2 in acion. When the enrgy has dropped enough in the early universe (say 300, 000 years) leptons and hadrons can combine to form hydrogen and helium, no real mystery there.

    "Then, sometime later, these elements were diverted from their tragectories to form stars. What was the force that caused these outgoing elements to form into stars?"

    Local gravity.

    Is there a law of physics that would cause outpouring gases in a vacuum to clump together and then ignite into a fireball?

    Gravity(better then law, one of the four forces that "run" the universe), resulting in the proton proton chain, which also occurs in our Sun.

    "Curious, how many assumptions, presuppositions, speculations were invoked to support your position?"

    You tell me that.

    "Or is your position based soley on empirical evidence?"

    No like you I have to draw inferances, for example the composition of the solar nebular from measurement of elemental solar abundances and differentiation within it resulting in the composition of the planets as one move outwards. Tterestrial, Gas, ice.

    "Going beyond the quotes I provided, what technical objections do you have with the authors positions of those quotes"

    Well lets just take one quote shall we..."We don’t understand how a single star forms, yet we want to understand how 10 billion stars form." Unfortunately we do, so I would not spend much tme listerning to someone who obviously knows nothing about current knowledge on the subject (whatever letters they have after their name).

    Is the letter in New Science wrong about fudge factors being invoked to support the Big Bang story?"

    Can't tell you as the writer does not say what they consider a fudge factor, I'll leave you to find out what they mean.

    okay I'm done for the mo, one question for you. Forget what I think for a mo, how about you. What do you think is the origin of the solar system, how did it come to be as we see it today, how did it form.

    I'm done, catch you later

    S

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:27 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    klm,
    you said: ---> Whether God exists or not has no effect on the natural sciences in general, nor on evolutionary biology in particular. <---

    Actually, there is plenty of room for an intelligent agent to be considered in biology as evolutionary biology is left lacking to explain information and getting around irreducible complexity.

    "...If the properties of matter (i.e., the medium) do not suffice to explain the origin of information, what does? Our experience with information-intensive systems (especially codes and languages) indicates that such systems always come from an intelligent source--i.e., from mental or personal agents, not chance or material necessity. This generalization about the cause of information has, ironically, received confirmation from origin-of-life research itself. During the last forty years, every naturalistic model proposed has failed to explain the origin of information--the great stumbling block for materialistic scenarios. Thus, mind or intelligence or what philosophers call "agent causation" now stands as the only cause known to be capable of creating an information-rich system, including the coding regions of DNA, functional proteins, and the cell as a whole.

    Because mind or intelligent design is a necessary cause of an informative system, one can detect the past action of an intelligent cause from the presence of an information-intensive effect, even if the cause itself cannot be directly observed. Since information requires an intelligent source, the flowers spelling "Welcome to Victoria" in the gardens of Victoria harbor in Canada lead visitors to infer the activity of intelligent agents even if they did not see the flowers planted and arranged.

    Scientists in many fields now recognize the connection between intelligence and information and make inferences accordingly."
    http://www.discovery.org/a/200

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:15 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    steve,
    Hi steve. Lucky for me I am not taking college exams on the specific technical details. I am working on surveys of the subject matter and note much conflict, many speculations, etc. Hope you did well on your exams.

    As I understand the Big Bang there was an 'expansion' that forced the singularity particles outward. Somehow, these particles in their travels outward combined to form hydrogen and helium. Were these particles electrons, protons and neutrons originally in the singularity or did they become those during their travels prior to combining into the two elements?
    Then, sometime later, these elements were diverted from their tragectories to form stars. What was the force that caused these outgoing elements to form into stars?
    Is there a law of physics that would cause outpouring gases in a vacuum to clump together and then ignite into a fireball?

    These are a couple of the issues I have. There are over 150 such issues addressed in:
    http://www.evolution-facts.org/EncyclopediaTOC.htm

    Curious, how many assumptions, presuppositions, speculations were invoked to support your position? Or is your position based soley on empirical evidence? Is the letter in New Science wrong about fudge factors being invoked to support the Big Bang story? Going beyond the quotes I provided, what technical objections do you have with the authors positions of those quotes? Were they wrong?

    Big Bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of western civilization, it rests on many untested, and in some cases, untestable, assumptions. Indeed, Big Bang cosmology has become a band-wagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth (Burbidge 1992, p. 120).

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    And Steve, please don't feel rushed to read that article, if you are inclined to read it at all. I just thought about our discussion when I read it, but it's no big deal.

    Cheers.

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:04 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 6

    Cronyism and placing economic pressures of scientists who challenge Darwinism in anyway by the discoveries they make and present does not strengthen the atheists or evolutionists case against the Creator Intelligent and transcendent.

    http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:37 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Steve,

    A chemistry prof at my alma mater recently wrote an article about a topic we have discussed: what is life? How did it begin? If you have a chance to look at it, please tell me what you think about his description. It's not purely scientific but still thought-provoking.
    http://www.baptistmessage.com/articledetail.php?articleID=1d179bf3ba4a556ea7c0559ba024c827

    I saw a couple of our soccer alums from Ireland - needless to say they were not as excited as you and I. They didn't seem very confident that Ireland would advance. Are they right to be afraid?

  • Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:08 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hi Hawk

    I've read what I take to be different quotes but I'm a little lost..

    We understand how stars form and how planets(gas)giants and terrestrial form, very well. All I see is quotes saying we don't undertand(no context at all) and that is the basis for your arguement, I asked why their formation goes against physical laws, start with the collaspe of the solar nebula, I don't want quotes I want facts. When I did my exams on this subject, I would have failed if I just gave a load of quotes.
    S

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    klm,
    Actually, God created all the natural laws. They belong to Him. God intervenes at His discretion for His glory as illustrated in the Bible. He is not arbitrary. For the most part life is very predictable and we can rely on the natural laws He has authored. From my understanding of the Bible He lets us know when He intercedes.

    "God is a rational being and the universe is his personal creation, it is necessarily has a rational, lawful, stable structure, awaiting increased human comprehension. This was the key to many intellectual undertakings, among them the rise of science."

    "Real science arose only once: in Europe. China, Islam, India and ancient Greece and Rome each had a highly developed alchemy. Only Europe developed chemistry. The other societies had astrology, only Europe developed astronomy. Only Christians pursued the secrets of the creation; they regarded God's creation as a book that was to be read and understood."--
    Thomas Woods, Jr. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:57 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    steve,
    Nice to hear from you. Here is my basis, experts in the field have troubles with some or all results:

    An Open Letter to the Scientific Community (Published in New Scientist, May 22, 2004)
    The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed...Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. ... But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors.
    An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences. Whereas Richard Feynman could say that "science is the culture of doubt", in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated... Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.
    Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang.

    "We cannot even show convincingly how galaxies, stars, planets, and life arose in the present universe."

    "The leading theory for giant planet formation has encountered a mortal blow, and the reaction is to put the theory on life support by invoking a physical phenomenon, core erosion, that had never before been raised."

    "We don’t understand how a single star forms, yet we want to understand how 10 billion stars form."

    Michael Rowan-Robinson, "Review of the Accidental Universe." New Scientist, Vol. 97, 20 January 1983, p. 186. Cited in Walt Brown, In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for the Creation and the Flood, p. 60, May 28, 2008. Accessed June 1, 2008.

    Alan Boss; Carnegie Institution in Washington D.C., New Scientist, 24 July 2004, p. 9

    Carlos Frenk, as quoted by Robert Irion, "Surveys Scour the Cosmic Deep," Science, Vol. 303, 19 March 2004, p. 1750

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking,
    I'm pleased to hear about your decision.
    I have pretty much concluded, contrary to what you consider is proper logic, you create strawmen to try and prove your particular view. You make consistent errors in your arguments. Sorry to say I believe your approach is deceptive and disengenuous.

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Congratulations! Thanks for the update, Steve. One day I will make it back to London. I was born across the Channel from you when my dad helped care for the American cemeteries in France. I don't remember England, but I've seen old Super 8mm movies of my family at the London Zoo and watching the changing of the palace guard. One day I want to see it when I can remember it; that's gives me a window of about 30 years.....

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes

    9.30: England definitely going to South Africa.

    10.30: All pubs in England run out of beer.

    :-)

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    sigh.

    mathetes wrote "I cannot let your falsehood go unchallenged"

    "Falsehood" implies that I lied. Gratuitous insults are not appreciated.

    My point was not whether Kepler, Pasteur, et al. were Christians or not. I've said approximately a bajillion times in this thread that being a Christian and an evolutionary biologist are not incompatible. Many people are both.

    My point was that as scientists they proceeded under the postulate that the natural world operated according to rules or principles that could be understood by objective observation and measurement of the material world.

    That puts them at odds with those here who think that sometimes the rules are suspended, God intervenes, and miracles happen.

    With that, I'm done here.

    - 30 -

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Rest assured I would not want to take any of that away from him.

    2-0 at half time, almost there, we only need a point,at the moment we have 3!!

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi Steve,
    Oh, I agree he was only doing the best he could given his equipment, etc. My point was that he was not a marginal believer (or an atheist) whose name has been co-opted by Christians long after Pasteur was dead. He was both a Christian and a scientist and he was identified as such during his lifetime in his own writings and in the opinion of others.

    Yes, go England!!! I saw the match was coming up and was saddened to see it would only be broadcasted live on Pay-per-View. I'm hoping to find a place to watch it with our men's team.

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi mathetes

    Hope your well.

    I know I've made this point before but... Its not a matter of going from matter to life, life is composed of matter, just as much as a rock is. I think (at least within this quote) Pasteur is wrong, he starts off with a germ, that's far to complicated, it would be much better to start with a system/process (after all that is what life is, a system of processes) which was simpler and then heads towards being germ like,at some point in time. I don't blame Pasteur though he was (just as I am)a man of his time. We have one thing in common, I like him don't believe in spontaneous generation.

    England V Croatia, tonight, if we win (or draw depending on other results)it's off to S Africa next year for the world cup.....

    S

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    klm,

    I see you're ready to move on to other things, but I cannot let your falsehood go unchallenged: "Pasteur, Kelvin, and Kepler, whom you have posthumously recruited to your cause."

    Each of these God-loving scientists (and many others) believed in science as strongly (or more strongly) as you do, yet they also had a deep faith in God. They believed that God had created the world with laws and priniciples of His making, so they sought to understand those laws and priniciples. No knowledgeable person disputes this. Perhaps this quote from Pasteur will help you understand both his commitment to God and science:

    "This is why the problem of spontaneous generation is all absorbing, and all-important. It is the very problem of life and of its origin. To bring about spontaneous generation would be to create a germ. It would be creating life; it would be to solve the problem of its origin. It would mean to go from matter to life through conditions of environment and of matter. God as Author of life would then no longer be needed. Matter would replace Him. God would need to be invoked only as Author of the motions of the universe."

    God bless you in every facet of your life.

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey Hawk, sticking with planets and in particular our system, how does their formation defy physical laws? Planetary formation is an excellent example of physical laws at work as they adequately explain the process from solar nebula through to planetesimals, planetary embryos, and then planets.

    S

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:28 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    KLM, Perhaps you will have more endurance an luck than I but I would suspect nothing you do can convince someone who demands you prove a negative as a starting point. Especially when they fail to recognize the logical impossibility of that suggestion.

  • Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk hi,
    I guess I am just going to have to throw in the towel with you. If you are unable to see the logical fallacies in your positions even when they are spelled out at length I don't think anything would ever convince you to review your positions on these matters. Well good luck in the future.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk wrote (again) "Prove there is not God and you have proven your case."

    What do I have to say to get the point across?

    ---> Whether God exists or not has no effect on the natural sciences in general, nor on evolutionary biology in particular. <---

    But you've got into your head the idea that evolution is a tool of Satan and evolutionary biologists are godless heathens. And you've dedicated yourself to doing battle against that idea, whether it's true or not.

    Similarly, you persist in your misunderstanding of evolution, wrongly thinking that it's all random. I think I've reached my limit on the number of times that I'll respond to your erroneous concepts of evolution.

    You probably parse the supernatural more finely than I do. To me, "miracles" are pretty much the same thing as "magic", except when God does it, it's a "miracle." Of course, God doesn't pull quarters out of people's ears and stuff like that - he's more inclined toward the big stuff like parting the sea. But both break the rules of physics, chemistry, etc. (or appear to).

    Hawk, your Christian colleagues here have said that the rules of chemistry and physics, matter, energy, thermodynamics, space, and time don't apply to God. So with God in your view of how things work, anything could happen, any time, nothing is predictable, and nothing is generalizable.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:00 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    klm,
    It's interesting using the old evolutionist canard "God steps in and poof! Magic! All the rules of chemistry and physics are suspended" We don't deny that He causes miracles, but not magic. Miracles are well within His nature and character and is not an anti-natural event but a supernatural event. If God exists then miracles are expected. If God doesn't exist then we would not expect miracle. Prove there is not God and you have proven your case.

    The evolutionists, however, seem to invoke magic in the form of hopeful monsters to create their stories. A singularity just magically appears defying all natural laws. Stars and planets forming defying physical laws. Life forming magically from non-life. Information magically created via mutations to cause changing from one kind to another kind. New proteins magically appear to create a new form, etc.

    The truth is that science was a result of the Christian worldview during the middle ages and the motivation for many of the early scientists, knowing God created the heavens and earth and all life, wanted to know more about God's nature and character by exploring and researching His creation. Science progessed.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hawk wrote "From an evolutionist starting point there is no God."

    Wrong. How many times do I have to say that God is outside of the natural sciences, i.e., outside of what can be directly observed and measured? Therefore, the natural sciences have nothing to say about God, including whether or not God exists, what size sandals he wears, etc. (Richard Dawkins' opinion is just that, his opinion. That he thinks it derives from scientific evidence is his mistake.)

    Hawk wrote "The ID folks incorporate both and conform to the best interpretation based on the evidence."

    For ID folks, God/the Creator/the Intelligent Designer/Whatever is part of the story. But science isn't asking questions about God, so assuming His/Her existence (or nonexistence) is totally irrelevant. There's absolutely nothing I've ever done in any of my research that would be changed based on whether God exists or not.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    viking,
    Your logic is flawed. The premise is based on the laws of information science. I have not asked that they be accepted. The premise is accepted by those in the field. Prove that the premise is wrong, until then I will accept what Information Science has to offer.

    How can the Law of Bigenesis be violated if a living God created life? True, The Bible reveals science but the Bible does not constitute science, just a beginning point. ID resolves the science aspect except it only concludes with an Intelligent Agent (a living being, mind you). A Christian or believing Jew or Muslim will understand that Intelligent Agent as God; Richard Dawkins a super intelligent space alien. So it appears your analysis is faulty here as well.

    Regarding q3. Our previous exchange you completely misconstrued and misused CSI. You are making similar mistakes probably due to ignorance of what CSI is. Suggest you read the references I left klm written by William Dembsky. Learn the subject you want to expound upon. With proper application you would probably find a low level of CSI for Saturn's rings.

    Regarding q4. I will suggest your logic setup is faulty. You suffered the same problem the last time we exchanged posts. Try again until you get it right.

    During our last exchange you told me you would provide the answers to the questions I posed. What progress have you made?

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    klm,
    too bad, you missed the whole reason why God designed the eye system as it is. Take a look at the last 3 minutes or so of Part 1. The high metabolism rate and blood flow correlates to what the evolutionists mislabel poor design.

    From a creationist starting point we believe what God has revealed about His creation. From an evolutionist starting point there is no God. What's the difference other than starting from opposite ends of the spectrum? Both starting from a presupposition that biases the interpretations of evidence.

    The ID folks incorporate both and conform to the best interpretation based on the evidence.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Rev, thanks for the links I will check them out.
    I wonder if you are familiar with Corey's Back to Darwin the Scientific Case for Deistic Evolution. It is a bit repetitive on the argument from design and the science needs to be updated but it seems to me to point in the right direction.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:52 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    klm68: It seems that the I.D. folks are caught up in this "CSI" thing.

    Nowadays they are caught up in something called FCSI when not obsessed with a Richard Dawkins creation called "Weasel".

    From the site of the Isaac Newton of Information Theory:
    http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/uncommon-descent-contest-question-10-provide-the-code-for-dawkins-weasel-program/#comment-333008

    Quote: Of course this is at the risk of dismissive rhetoric about "word salads" etc – which simply proves that there is plainly no intent to engage on the merits cogently to wards a true and fair result, only to distract, distort, demonise and dismiss.

    Here's the FCSI part:
    http://www.uncommondescent.com/darwinism/uncommon-descent-contest-question-10-provide-the-code-for-dawkins-weasel-program/#comment-333010

    Quote: "We need not bother with the hurled elephant tactic of a glitteringly general claim based on a substantially irrelevant literature bluff and dump, as the first article by Hazen – as discussed several times at UD — suffices to show what is going on".

    Mind boggling stuff, especially considering the two sentences I quoted above are just the tip of the iceberg.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:06 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hi again Mathetes,
    Thank you for your response. Hope you have a great meal and family time.
    In response to your earlier question to KLM re mutations that result in increased information that is beneficial. Actually it happens all the time. The most common form of this is the frame shift mutation but there is also the insertion mutation. Admittedly the vast majority of these are either detrimental or have no detectable effect but occasionally these result in the expression of a characteristic that is beneficial to the organisms' survival in the environment it is in. This is often described by some doubters of common descent as micro evolution. Regardless of what one calls it, it is in fact a well documented occurrence common in large number populations such as bacteria. Sometimes the incidence of beneficial result is increased by placing the organisms in many different environments because what is beneficial in one setting could be detrimental in another.
    Again hope all continues well with you and your's.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    mathetes wrote "I have seen this attitude expressed by one evolutionist after another on this site. You really must all share the same playbook."

    Yes, indeed we do. It's called logical thinking.

    I've said dozens of times that while mutations occur at random, natural selection is *selective*. Evolutionary theory does *not* maintain that the universe is chaotic. But you'd rather do battle with that straw man of your own creation than learn about evolutionary biology.

    The idea that we can learn about the Creator by studying his/her creation is a very old one. Some of the present-day evolutionary biologists who are also Christians might adopt that attitude, I don't know.

    But in order to take that approach it's necessary to postulate that there are general principles that can be understood, and that certain principles are never violated nor suspended for the convenience of the scientist who just can't figure it out.

    Science admits that it doesn't know everything, that we can learn, and that there are methods of inquiry that bring us closer to the truth. ID as described here has little in common with the science as practiced by Pasteur, Kelvin, and Kepler, whom you have posthumously recruited to your cause. I'm sure they would not have signed up voluntarily.

    ID is intellectual surrender — we don't understand it, so it must have been God.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:37 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Viking,

    I understood that and know where you stand, old friend. I appreciate what you bring to the discussion; you know far more about the philosophical underpinnings than I do, plus you express yourself better. I think I'm going to leave for the day and let you talk to klm. I'm going to go fix a quiet dinner for my wife. God bless you, sir.

  • Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    klm,
    You wrote: "Then we hit on some problem in biology that humans don't fully understand, so we invoke God.
    God steps in and poof! Magic! All the rules of chemistry and physics are suspended. Even the principles of time and space don't apply. Absolutely *anything* could happen, because, after all, we're talking about God here.
    If anything could happen, there's no pattern, there's no predictability, there's no general principles, and nothing we learn from the particular case at hand contributes at all to our understanding of anything else."

    I have seen this attitude expressed by one evolutionist after another on this site. You really must all share the same playbook.

    I am so glad the true scientists of the past few centuries did not do what you describe. Men like Pasteur, Kelvin, Kepler, et al, far from throwing up their hands and saying, "God did it," actually dug in to find the principles and laws that govern the universe. Rather than seeing the universe as chaos, these Christian men believed God had created an orderly universe and they sought to discover the framework of laws He had imbedded in it, "to think God's thoughts after Him."

    RE: antifreeze proteins in Arctic fish (http://euplotes.biology.uiowa.edu/web/jmlpubls/ld97.pdf). It was an interesting article until I got the end. Throughout the commentary (not the actual report, but a commentary on the reports) the authors used numerous phrases to say "we are not sure" (such as "which apparently arose", "likely arose", "have apparently arisen", "could also have evolved", "may have a special propensity to arise").

    Imagine my surprise to then read at the end of the article:
    "The strong message from this work is the clear link between a new function that has arisen out of strong selective pressure and an abrupt shift in environmental conditions — adaptive molecular evolution."

    After all the honest "may have" and "could have" phrases (since they don't actually have proof), the authors describe it as a clear link. Most research guidance committees would never have let a researcher get away with something like that. Seems like they are over-selling the product just a bit.

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