Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Tue, Oct. 27 2009 02:00 PM EDT

PC(USA) Loses Three More Churches to EPC

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Three churches in northern California cut ties with the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and joined a smaller and more conservative denomination this month.

Among them was Trinity Presbyterian Church in Clovis which was officially constituted as an Evangelical Presbyterian Church congregation on Sunday.

During a meeting earlier this month, EPC's Presbytery of the West examined several pastors and their requests to transfer from the PC(USA) to the EPC. The Rev. Chuck Shillito of Trinity was received and on Sunday installed as pastor.

"We're growing up," Shillito said, noting that Trinity is on its way to becoming a church that has the heart of Jesus Christ for those who are most broken.

The Trinity congregation was encouraged to embrace the EPC as family and to bring many people to Christ through the new relationship.

Dozens of churches have left the PC(USA), citing the denomination's liberal direction on scriptural authority and homosexuality. Most recently, the 2008 General Assembly, the denomination's highest governing body, approved a proposal to delete from its constitution a requirement that clergy live in "fidelity within the covenant of marriage between and a man and a woman, or chastity in singleness." It also approved an "authoritative interpretation" of the church constitution that allows gay and lesbian candidates for ordination to conscientiously object the current ordination ban on noncelibate homosexuals.

Many of the churches disaffected by such decisions have quit the PC(USA) and joined the EPC.

First Presbyterian Church of Fresno, Calif., and Fowler Presbyterian Church held services this month to transition to the 85,000-member EPC.

Dr. Jeffrey J. Jeremiah, stated clerk of the EPC, encouraged First Presbyterian worshippers to look to the future and to have confidence in their new denominational family.

"You are coming to a denomination that is unwavering ... in our commitment to Jesus Christ, ... the Bible, ...[and] orthodox biblical Christianity," Jeremiah told the Fresno congregation on Oct. 18. "You can be confident that in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church we will encourage you and support you."

Not all conservative Presbyterians are on the same page with regards to how to respond to what they see as actions contrary to Scripture. Presbyterians for Renewal introduced a proposal last week that would provide "a faithful alternative" to leaving the denomination.

To leave the PC(USA) would mean giving up and turning their back on the ministry to which God called them, the group noted.

The proposal calls for the creation of a new, non-geographic synod in the PC(USA). The new synod would be equal in every way to the existing 16 synods but rather than be identified by a geographic region, it would be identified by particular theological and missional commitments.

The reality is, the renewal group pointed out, the PC(USA) is neither united nor together and "attempts to force diverse congregations into 'dialogue,' feigning the authentic community of common faith, does not create connectional ministry."

"As a denomination, we are incapable of articulating a compelling unified witness to the person and work of Jesus Christ, the mission and purposes of God, the authority and interpretation of Scripture, and the role of the Church in the world," the renewal group stated. "We believe this new synod would provide an important means of moving the whole denomination toward missional and ministerial effectiveness."

The PC(USA) is the largest Presbyterian denomination in the country with 2.1 million members. It experienced its steepest membership decline in 2008 with the loss of 69,381 members. The negative trend began in the mid-1960s.

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  • Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:56 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The General Assembly approved the chastity amendment but the presbyteries didn't ratify it.
    I am a proud, progressive PC(USA) Christian.

  • Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:06 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 6

    Good for them. A church whose morals are in the toilet is not the place for a Christian to be.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:25 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 6

    When is enough going to be enough?

    Since I've been here only a short time and I don't post as often as many others do, I've left the decision about flagging to others. But I write this now because a few of us are having almost all of our posts flagged by deviants. And I know that some Christians have already left or are contemplating leaving.

    I think some people think we should leave all the posts up so that all of us can see just how loathsome the poster is. (I know one person said so a couple of months ago. He may have changed his mind now.) I disagree, but I'll let my fellow Christians decide when enough is enough.

    I've noticed an increase lately in the number of vile posts and many are personal attacks on members who I admire for their truthfulness and their style.
    Is this acceptable to you my fellow Christians?

    Then these depraved deviants go on to flag the posts of genuine Christians. Some of these Christians, whose comments are encouraging to all of us brothers, have left for long periods of time - some never return.
    Is this acceptable to you my fellow Christians?

    This is a Christian website, for Christians and other interested persons to discuss Christian issues. It's not a pit of feces, meant for the fun and amusement of the most vile who enjoy being enemies of God.

    I sincerely believe there are three or four posters here constantly posting vile comments and repeatedly flagging the comments of good Christians - your brothers and sisters in the faith.
    Christians and others who come here for a decent discussion and find that discussion constantly being disrupted by enemies of God would be entirely justified if they flag these offensive posters on sight.

    My signature is a quote by jar1961.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "For the Christians... Christ is clear... we are not to throw pearls among swine.... when is enough going to be enough in exhorting the heathens here?" jar1961

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:25 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 6

    I'll just repost this flagged comment for our Christian members.

    Amen ID4234. We expect a growing number of faithful Christians will flee these filth-infested churches.

    Excellent scripture Online4Him - you always bring a Godly perspective.

    I read both of you always.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The scriptures constantly promote the need for "repentance", "faith" and "obedience", three words the unrepentant, unfaithful and disobedient hate hearing.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:40 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 7

    To the cowardly flaggers,

    There are sad, pathetic souls, who can't form a point of view, and so flag comments they disagree with. And like cowards, they flag comments without claiming responsibility.

    If you flag posts because you disagree with them, from what I've seen, all of 'your' posts will likely get flagged - forever.

    Never flag and we'll get to read all the ridiculous things others say (if you disagree) or all the pearls of wisdom (if you agree) - and no matter what side you're on, you'll get to read your favorite posters' comments without having to click on "show".

    1) Stop flagging and: we'll all get to read everyone's posts, good or bad.

    2) Keep flagging and: all your posts will get flagged, and you'll have to click on 'show' to see your friends' posts.

    It's your choice. If you've been here long enough to see what happens to people who frequently flag, you'll pick #1 and never flag.
    If you're either new or just plain stupid (you know one of those people who never gets it, ever since they were a kid), you'll pick #2.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "For the Christians... Christ is clear... we are not to throw pearls among swine.... when is enough going to be enough in exhorting the heathens here?" jar1961

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:40 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 6

    On flagging Christians on a Christian website -

    THIS IS a Christian website, for Christians and others to discuss events relating to Christianity and religious affairs. We are against homosexual sex acts, but we think they are entitled to talk freely without disruption on (homosexual) websites set up for that purpose. THAT is freedom of speech.

    Similarly, we believe that homosexuals should not come to a Christian website and flag any Christians for any reason, and give a post multiple thumbs down to try and fool us into believing that many people disagree lol.

    Homosexuals shouldn't come to a Christian website to attack and disrupt Christians trying to exercise their freedom of speech.
    I would never go to a homosexual website, give myself an offensive name, and then start flagging the homosexuals for saying things that a normal person would expect homosexuals to say to a Christian with the stupidity to come to a homosexual site to attack and disrupt them.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Flagged as inappropriate means inappropriate for a Christian website, not inappropriate for any website and not disagreeable to you.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:27 pm Agree: 10   Disagree: 12

    Amen ID4234. We expect a growing number of faithful Christians will flee these filth-infested churches.

    Excellent scripture Online4Him - you always bring a Godly perspective.

    I read both of you always.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The scriptures constantly promote the need for "repentance", "faith" and "obedience", three words the unrepentant, unfaithful and disobedient hate hearing.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:18 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 13

    On the recent increase in the number of thumbs up/down

    I've noticed in recent weeks a huge increase in the number of people reading the articles, (based on the number of thumbs up/down), and yet very few have any opinion worth posting (based on the number of posts).

    In recent weeks, there has been a huge difference in the number of posts versus the number of people thumbing up/down those posts.

    I wish that those people who are thumbing up/down would say why they feel that way, so we can all share our different ideas. It would be far more interesting for all of us if all of you would post your individual opinions too. Surely, there can't be that much satisfaction in thumbing up/down other peoples' posts, can there?

    If you believe that we posters feel happy when we receive an extraordinary number of thumbs up, or that we feel sad when we receive an extraordinary number of thumbs down, speaking for myself I'd have to laugh at your naivety. I couldn't care less, one way or another.

    When I first joined and received a few thumbs up, I was pleased because I could usually guess who they were from their presence in the thread. When the ratio was reasonable and made sense when compared to the number of people who were posting, I took notice of it.
    But when I saw how certain people began giving people thumbs down, because they didn't like them or didn't like a previous comment by them, I lost interest in this function and now find it useless.

    More importantly, all of you should know that when you run around thumbing up/down other peoples' posts, those of us who are posting believe that it's just one or two (sad) people, not the 30 or 40 people it appears to be.

    We feel very sad that some people come here and spend most of their time thumbing up/down other peoples' posts, and lack the education or the intellect to form and post an opinion of their own.
    And it's very sad that there are these pathetic souls who, because they have these profound mental deficiencies, they haven't got a real life with friends. And so they spend all day here, alone.
    It's so pathetic we can't help but feel sad for you.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "For the Christians... Christ is clear... we are not to throw pearls among swine.... when is enough going to be enough in exhorting the heathens here?" jar1961

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:15 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 11

    I appreciate that 14 readers would understand and agree with the first post on this thread (below), but I can't understand why 19 would disagree.

    I can't understand because the 19 Christians or others (who enjoy Christian discussions) didn't post their differing opinions on the text being commented upon.

    Sad.

    TGF
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For the Christians... Christ is clear... we are not to throw pearls among swine.... when is enough going to be enough in exhorting the heathens here? jar1961

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:20 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 4

    "I thought Christians weren't supposed to lie."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:15 pm Agree: 11   Disagree: 10

    "You are coming to a denomination that is unwavering ... in our commitment to Jesus Christ, ... the Bible, ...[and] orthodox biblical Christianity," Jeremiah told the Fresno congregation on Oct. 18.

    AMEN!!!!!!!! "For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels" (Luke 9:26).

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:10 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 10

    For PCUSA, this is just the beginning. They are an apostate denomination that will continue to shrink because of unbiblical stands. Thankfully, these three California churches know the difference between what the Bible says and what PCUSA stands for.

  • Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:43 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    But it's facts that all peoples could see:here's got much division among churches, when something happens ( someones need help ) different-concept-churches wouldn't go co-operate ( work together ) easier or always become the ones who're more slower motion.

  • Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:44 pm Agree: 18   Disagree: 25

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "To leave the PC(USA) would mean giving up and turning their back on the ministry to which God called them, the group noted." I thought Christians weren't supposed to lie. TGF --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most loving thing you can do for your family is to pull them out of the public school system and keep them far away from apostate churches. hide

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