Millions Mark All Saints Day

Online4Him »

Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:15 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

Cheisa,

Sorry, 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.” How can you equate a man’s “work” with his soul?

Matthew 5:25–26 is dealing with agreeing with one’s adversary; as in a lawsuit…It is always best to settle out of court and avoid a pronouncement against you.

Matthew 12:31–32 refers to a person who obstinately attributes those works to the devil that have been wrought only by the Spirit of God. This is the sin against the Holy Spirit and he that blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is in danger of eternal damnation. These passages cannot be used to support the imaginary place of Purgatory….

Cheisa »

Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

Church doctrine on issues like purgatory are culled from Scripture. While the name "purgatory" does not appear, the concept of a final purification before union with God and benefits of prayers for the dead surely is. Purgatory simply gives a name to this Christian and pre-Christian (Jewish) concept.

Cheisa »

Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:03 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

Augustine on purgatory:


"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death" (ibid., 172:2).

"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

"The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death" (ibid., 29:109).

Cheisa »

Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

Online,
'
All Christians agree that we won’t be sinning in heaven. Sin and final glorification are utterly incompatible. Therefore, between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure. Between death and glory there is a purification.

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

Online4Him »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:01 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

Cheisa,

Instead of giving hypothetical scenarios to support purgatory please explain why neither Jesus nor the apostles ever mentioned it?

msn,

Romans 3:1-2 says, “…unto them (the Jews) were committed the oracles of God” so we know that God guided and preserved the books that make up the Old Testament; this would include the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon. On the other hand we know that the apocryphal books were not written in the Hebrew language which was used by the inspired prophets of the Old Testament.

In fact, the Jewish Council at Jamnia (90 A.D.) excluded these books from the Old Testament and among Christians there was no consensus regarding these books until Augustine championed them at the Council of Carthage in 397 AD …Besides, many of the apocryphal books contain many historical and a doctrinal error….Even your New Jerusalem Catholic Bible says "The book of Judith in particular shows a bland indifference to history and geography” page 622 ….

Though some of the Apocryphal books do have historical value they are not to be placed in the same category with the Holy Scriptures….

msnchris70 »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:42 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

Online,

You should know full well, that inspiration of scripture is not based solely on whether it was quoted in the New Testament or otherwise the books of Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon should not be included. While these books are a part ot the Hebrew collection, they are not quoted. So, basic logic would say quoting is not the only reliable test of inspiration and thus is a fallacy.

Sirach and 2 Maccabees – some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 – Paul says he “thinks” that he has the Spirit of God.

Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 - 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

But the Septuagint is quoted quite heavilly. Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that Protestants later removed.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom and parts of Daniel and Esther were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.

Sirach and 2 Maccabees – some Protestants argue these books are not inspired because the writers express uncertainty about their abilities. But sacred writers are often humble about their divinely inspired writings. See, for example, 1 Cor. 7:40 – Paul says he “thinks” that he has the Spirit of God.

Cheisa »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

Actually, any student of history will know that the Apocryphal / Deuterocanonical books are never quoted by the New Testament…..

But they hold truths, nonetheless. That Protestants decided to alter Scripture and remove them from the Old Testament is irrelevant. They were canonical, inspired Books for over a millenium and appeared in the KJV for nearly a century.

Cheisa »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL our sins.

Sins are forgiven with repentance, so the Bible tells us. These re some means of doing penance for your sins.

If you die a sinner, let's say you're killed while committing a murder, there is no salvation for you. You did not have the opportunity to repent and get right with grace and God.

mike »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:32 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

all saints day? how were they called saints & who made them saints?

Online4Him »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:17 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

“If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire” (1 Corinthians 3:15).

Reading this verse in its proper context will clear up this misunderstanding: The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

The fire mentioned here is to try a man’s “work” not to purify his soul in a place of cleansing…. The gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble being tried by fire demonstrates a man’s foundation (his works) which he has built upon....This brings us back to verse 11 where Pauls says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” This is the only foundation to build upon. Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL our sins.


“The astute and open-minded student of history will also note that there were books in the Bible for the first 1500 years of Christendom that acknowledged this benefit.”

Actually, any student of history will know that the Apocryphal / Deuterocanonical books are never quoted by the New Testament…..

FullGospel »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:38 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

I wish we could say the believers get along as well here on earth as they do in heaven, but that's not the case...(sigh)

Let's try and clear up the misunderstanding noted below: Judaism, the root of Christianity, acknowledges that prayers can help each other. St. Paul clarifies it even further, saying that death cannot separate us from the body of Christ. The astute and open-minded student of history will also note that there were books in the Bible for the first 1500 years of Christendom that acknowledged this benefit. Some denominations that came after removed those books, but not the truth behind them.

The misunderstanding is that this time of purification before entering heaven is done by us through some kind of "works." Untrue. The cleansing is done by Jesus. 1 Cor. 3:15 says "he will be saved through fire," not "he will save himself through fire." Jesus, the consuming fire, does the cleansing.

It could happen in the blink of an eye, in accord with Hebrews 9:27. We simply don't know the amount of time required, yet that is what we argue about. And what doesn't exist outside of this life? Time.

There is no disagreement, only misunderstanding. Let us all take our example from those who let God help them become all they were capable of as a Christian. The cloud of witnesses continues to cheer us on, friends. Run the race. Heaven awaits.

RepenTrustJesus »

Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:26 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 3

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Hebrews 9:27

Prayers for the departed on All Souls Day is vain, once a person is dead no prayers can help them.