Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Church|Mon, Nov. 09 2009 02:40 PM EDT

United Methodist Court Affirms Stance Against Homosexuality

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

The United Methodist Church's highest court recently reversed a resolution, passed by a regional group, that declares the denomination is divided on the issue of homosexuality.

The Judicial Council said the legislation negates the body's "clearly stated position" that homosexual practice is incompatible with Christian teaching.

Delegates of the Baltimore-Washington Annual Conference, a regional UMC body, adopted the resolution earlier this year. It states, in part, that "all are God's children of sacred worth, yet we have been, and remain divided regarding homosexual expressions of human sexuality."

It further says, "We will follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit and affirm language that communicates a more authentic and truthful representation of The United Methodist Church, acknowledging that we disagree yet all seek a faithful witness and remain in love with God and in minister together."

Bishop John R. Schol of the Baltimore-Washington Annual Conference determined that the resolution does not contradict the United Methodist Book of Discipline and asserted that it is a statement of belief.

However, the high court rejected Schol's decision in a ruling released last week.

While an annual conference may adopt a resolution on human sexuality that is "aspirational in nature," the regional body may not "negate, ignore or violate the Discipline, even when the disagreements are based upon conscientious objections to those provisions," the Judicial Council stated.

The council further noted, "For the Annual Conference to state that its resolution is a 'more authentic and truthful representation of The United Methodist Church' implies that it believes the present language of the Discipline is a less authentic and truthful representation of The United Methodist Church. In that respect, the resolution goes beyond a permissible statement of mere disagreement."

The court declared the resolution void.

A similar resolution had been rejected by the wider church last year when delegates from throughout the denomination voted to uphold its ban on the ordination of practicing homosexuals and its position that it does not condone the practice of homosexuality. Earlier this year, the Judicial Council overturned resolutions from two California conferences supporting clergy who perform same-sex marriages.

While United Methodists continue to affirm a position that is "faithful to Christian teaching," as the Rev. Eddie Fox, head of world evangelism for the World Methodist Council, told the United Methodist News Service, a researcher pointed out that attitudes are shifting.

Robert P. Jones, president of Public Religion Research, told the denomination's news service that 41 percent of United Methodist clergy say their views have become more liberal on lesbian and gay issues over the last 10 years compared to only 15 percent who say their views have become more conservative.

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  • Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    You said, "Note that they do assume that other vague words mean homosexuality (when in fact they don't)"

    If you are correct, then the distinction they made disappears. But you still want us to believe what they said.... after you said they were wrong.

    Uh... ok, sure, whatever you say.

  • Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:52 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Even the hyper-conservative Wisconsin Synod disagrees with you Mathetes. They present an argument from Paul himself to show that porneia does not include homosexuals.

    Both you and they rely on literalism: taking a single verse out of context and inflicting harm on other people based on your idiosyncratic interpretation. But their literalism disagrees with your literalism.

    One could come up with other absurd literalisms. If you take the text at face value, Paul also says in this verse that effeminate men cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    That would condemn a large proportion of fundamentalist men, regardless of their sexual orientation and regardless of whether they ever have sex with anybody or not.

    Your interpretation reflects your prejudice, rather than the principles that Jesus taught: compassion, common sense, humility, and justice.

  • Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Let's see if I heard you right:

    The problem with those conclusions is that in a passage like 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul distinguishes between those who commit porneia (NIV "sexually impure") and "homosexual offenders."

    "When Paul speaks of sexual sins he often uses porneia to refer to sexual intercourse of a male and female outside marriage and then uses the word akatharsia ("uncleanness, impurity") to refer to homosexuality (2 Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Colossians 3:5, Ephesians 5:3,5). So it is not an established fact that porneia also refers to homosexuality."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Note that they do assume that other vague words mean homosexuality (when in fact they don't)"

    You say they are wrong about Paul's word for homosexuality, so wouldn't that mean that Paul's distinction between the two words is wrong too? You say they are wrong, but you want us to believe what they are saying. Right.....

    You can't have it both ways.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:21 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Did you see that, DP? Looks like you don't know what you're talking about with this 'porneia' thing after all. hide

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Here's a note from the extremely conservative Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod on the word "porneia":
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Some people suggest that the word porneia refers to any sexual act other than a man and woman in marriage. On that basis they then conclude that the word also refers to homosexuality, and that therefore Jesus spoke about homosexuality.

    The problem with those conclusions is that in a passage like 1 Corinthians 6:9, Paul distinguishes between those who commit porneia (NIV "sexually impure") and "homosexual offenders."

    When Paul speaks of sexual sins he often uses porneia to refer to sexual intercourse of a male and female outside marriage and then uses the word akatharsia ("uncleanness, impurity") to refer to homosexuality (2 Corinthians 12:21, Galatians 5:19, Colossians 3:5, Ephesians 5:3,5). So it is not an established fact that porneia also refers to homosexuality.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Note that they do assume that other vague words mean homosexuality (when in fact they don't), but even this extremely conservative group states that "porneia" does not mean homosexuality.

    (The Missouri Synod is absurdly conservative, and the Wisconsin Synod views the Missouri Synod as liberal heretics. :D :D )

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Ledoska, you are so full of it. It is gross that you can't even take responsibility for your own bigotry but instead have to pass it off on a book.

    Since you follow the bible so precisely, I assume you also throw stones at menstruating women who attend church (Lev. 15), abstain from trimming your hair (Lev. 19) advocate death to those who work on Sundays (Exodus 35), encourage parents selling their daughters into slavery (Exodus 21), refrain from eating shellfish (Lev. 11) or wearing cotton blend fabrics, or eating pork, etc. etc. etc.

    You presumably also believe in stoning fortunetellers to death (Lev 20:27)? Killing a child who hits his parent (Ex 21:15)? Then there's this: "Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. (Deut 17:12)

    How about you face facts? You are just another in a long line of anti-gay bigots. Pathetic really.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:18 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Sounds good. Take care Mathetes. :-)

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:04 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Simple answer? No, let's run around the bush again and again: Jesus did say that word, Jesus didn't speak that language, etc.

    The early church since the gospels were written accepted those words as being said by Jesus, but you want to argue whether He said them or not.

    Forget it.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Just for clarification, as we have discussed, I seriously doubt Jesus referred to porneia. Jesus spoke Aramaic. Porneia is Greek.

    That said, can you say which verses you're talking about?

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Ok, so when Jesus referred to porneia (illicit/illegal sexual intercourse), to what law was He referring?

    A simple question awaiting a simple answer.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:37 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Mathetes wrote: "As I have shown you, many authors including Jesus ... used the term porneia" [and what He meant included homosexuality]

    I wrote: "Would you mind giving a quick recap? Where did Jesus state that by the word "porneia" He meant what you are claiming?"

    Mathetes wrote: "classical Greek authors such as Philo, Cephalio, and others ... That was actually the second time (at least) that I've posted that to you.... Thanks for proving you never even bother to read our posts... MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOU."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Thanks Mathetes for clarifying that you made a false statement when you claimed to have "shown" that the "author" Jesus used porneia to include homosexuality.

    Revelation 21:8 says that the place of *all* liars will be the fiery lake of burning sulfur: the Second Death.

    May God have mercy on you.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:32 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    The truth is inconvenient for Mathetes and DP. That is why they hate it so intensely.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:26 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "LOL.

    Dis`com`mo´di`ous: a. 1. Inconvenient"

    And it's quite true. I can be VERY inconvenient to those who hope to fool others with lies. LOL

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:25 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    First according to the New American Standard Greek Lexicon the word porneia has the following meanings

    4202. porneia porneia; from 4203; fornication:—

    NAS-fornication (4), fornications (2), immoralities (1), immorality (16), sexual immorality (1), unchastity (1).

    The last one there is unchastity. This meaning is supported also by the following

    QUOTE

    “Regarding the meanings of por•nei´a, B. F. Westcott in his book Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Ephesians (1906, p. 76) says: “This is a general term for all unlawful intercourse, (I) adultery: Hos. ii. 2, 4 (LXX.); Matt. v. 32; xix. 9; (2) unlawful marriage, I Cor. v. I; (3) fornication, the common sense as here [Eph 5:3].” Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 693) defines por•nei´a as “prostitution, unchastity, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse.” Porneia is understood to involve the grossly immoral use of the genital organ(s) of at least one human; also there must have been two or more parties (including another consenting human or a beast), whether of the same sex or the opposite sex. (Jude 7)”

    Yet no mention of homosexuality. Since we know that homosexuality is legal and homosexual sex is legal and same sex couples can marry, then we know that the word "porneia" does not apply to homosexuals. Some would like to force it mean that, but that is based on bigotry and ignorance not fact.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:22 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Ledoska wrote: "They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13"

    So you're calling for mass murder Ledoska.

    You ingore the *vast* majority of direct commands in the Bible, and you call for mass murder.

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:18 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    LOL.

    Dis`com`mo´di`ous: a. 1. Inconvenient

  • Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:14 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Daniel Paul wrote: "Some of the most highly educated people in the areas of greek and hebrew agree this is what it means. Do back up your point or be branded a discommodious poster."

    Mickey responded: "No they don't."

    How silly of Drs. Bauer, Gingrich + Danker to think they know more than Mickey. After all, all they have are terminal degrees + decades of experience with classical + NT Greek. On the other hand, Mickey has... uh... wait... no, sorry, he does't have anything to compare to that, nor does he have any evidence to support his arguments.

    Sorry, no evidence, no debate. Daniel described you well: "a discommodious poster."

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:48 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "(Some of the most highly educated people in the areas of greek and hebrew agree this is what it means. Do back up your point or be branded a discommodious poster....)"

    No they don't. Do you think lying will convince anyone? It hasn't so far.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:45 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    "I don't know what the problem is with all of you. All you have to do is read the Bible. One Bible says, Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.."

    So you say that you follow all the purity laws of Leviticus? If not you're a hypocrite like the Pharisees.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Welcome, Ledoska! Those who WANT homosexuality to be OK are going to ignore anything that says they are wrong. It's basic codependency....

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    I don't know what the problem is with all of you. All you have to do is read the Bible. One Bible says, Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. Leviticus 18: 22. and, If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13. Another Bible says, Homosexaulity is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin. Leviticus 18:22.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "So what's the point? You want to justify your sin, so you'll disregard the negative things the Bible says about a man lying with another man, you'll twist other passages into being approving of homosexual behaviors, and you'll attack anyone who speaks biblical truth while playing the victim."

    What I don't understand is why these people somehow need our approval. Why else would they be here. The only thing they do is show how rude the pro-gay side is and how they are absolutely against traditional values! They only confirm what they say isn't true about the pro-gay agenda.

    Keep posting guys... I'm sure it's raising money to help fund this site and keep it going!!!

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:38 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "You have merely stated your opinion without demonstrating anything."

    I think we may be expecting too much of HM....

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:37 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Nope that is not what porneia means. That is what poorly educated wish it meant, but real Christians do not. "

    Why? This should be good....

    (Some of the most highly educated people in the areas of greek and hebrew agree this is what it means. Do back up your point or be branded a discommodious poster....)

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:32 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Hman wrote:
    "LOL, in other words, no, you have never "shown" what you keep claiming you have "shown."
    You have merely stated your opinion without demonstrating anything.
    You repeatedly claim that your opinion constitutes "proof."
    ---------
    Thanks for proving you never even bother to read our posts; instead, you just spout your assumptions and opinions, never offering any evidence to support your views.

    From my original post below (1:02 p.m.):
    pornēia = prostitution, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse (definition from B-G-D’s Grk-Eng Lexicon of the NT, but also used to refer to any kind of illegal intercourse by classical Greek authors such as Philo, Cephalio, and others)

    That was actually the second time (at least) that I've posted that to you. That's not my opinion; that's the definition from Bauer-Gingrich-Danker's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Classical Literature. How foolish to think you know Greek better than the scholars who wrote the dictionary!

    That ok, dismiss the evidence without producing any evidence to support your opinion, and attack the messenger - you've shown you really don't want to learn anything; you merely seek approval for what you do ad to applaud others who share I this sin. Thus the scripture in Romans 1:32 is fulfilled.

    Good night. May God have mercy on you.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    "Look Mathetes, there is nothing in this for you. "

    Unfortunately there is little left in life for poor Mathetes except hate. Sure sign of abuse, in my opinion.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    "To continually claim that porneia = prostitution only is to ignore the evidence that it means any illicit sexual activity outside of the marriage of one man and one woman."

    Nope that is not what porneia means. That is what poorly educated wish it meant, but real Christians do not. Why not come back to the Lord, mathetes , before it's too late?

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:28 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    Look Mathetes, there is nothing in this for you.

    You are trying to harm us by taking away our legal and civil rights.

    Either you harm us, or you don't harm us. You do not benefit in either case.

    Your argument is weak and depends on numerous assumptions. There is no benefit to anyone in going your way.

    Let us live our lives in peace.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Mathetes wrote: "As I have shown you, many authors including Jesus, Paul, Philo, and Cephalio used the term porneia" [and what they meant included homosexuality]

    I wrote: "Would you mind giving a quick recap? Where did Jesus state that by the word "porneia" He meant what you are claiming?"

    Mathetes wrote: "Why, are you going to listen to God’s Word this time? Why should I bother? Whenever I show you anything from the Bible that goes against what you want to believe, you immediately dismiss it ... So what's the point?"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    LOL, in other words, no, you have never "shown" what you keep claiming you have "shown."

    You have merely stated your opinion without demonstrating anything.

    You repeatedly claim that your opinion constitutes "proof."

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    ""But you're predominately on topics having to do with homosexuality in some way. Funny thing about that......"

    Ummm...that is because it is the predominate topic. DUH!!!"

    In YOUR life it is, but not on CP. Your attraction to homosexuality is legendary on the CP.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:25 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    "They HAVE to ignore it. After all, if they faced the truth then they would have to face their sin. It's nothing more than classic denial...."

    Being the Queen of denial, you would know.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:22 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    The Lord is with you, bro. Mathetes

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    @HM,GG, and to the counterfeit christians
    One of the common pr-gay theological arguments is that ---

    Jesus was silent about same-sex intercourse......

    FIRST OF ALL
    Jesus ministry was to the Jews who already had the law which prohibited same-sex intercourse, and they were not doing that. Jesus speaks about divorce and adultery because they were doing that.

    SECOND
    Jesus presumes the man-woman prerequisite for marriage based on the Genesis (1:27 and 2:24) narrative which he quotes (see Mat 19:4-6, Mark 10:6-8).

    Mat 19:4-6 ESV He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, (5) and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh'? (6) So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

    Jesus goes on to say that God has joined together the two to become one flesh (God brought the woman to Adam (Gen 2:22)). Can we say that God has joined a homosexual couple together to become one flesh?

    THRD
    Paul's ministry was to the Gentiles who were involved in same-sex intercourse and therefore he does mention same-sex intercourse (Romans, Corinth, and Ephesus (1Tim1:3)).

    When did you last hear a sermon against incest? You did not because most people do not do that. Homosexuality has become an issue because people around us are doing that. Hence, we have Paul speaking about this in the NT in his ministry to the Gentiles.

    FOURTH
    Not everything that Jesus did was recorded (John 21:25).

    FIFTH
    Jesus taught against sexual immorality (porneia) which is a word that means illicit sexual intercourse and which would include same-sex intercourse (Mat 15:19, Mar 7:21).

    In the Jewish culture of Jesus day, same-sex intercourse was seen as a Gentile thing. We have little or no evidence that it was practiced by Jews.



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/gaymariage.htm#silent

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:09 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Hman: "Would you mind giving a quick recap? Where did Jesus state that by the word "porneia" He meant what you are claiming?"

    Why, are you going to listen to God’s Word this time? Why should I bother? Whenever I show you anything from the Bible that goes against what you want to believe, you immediately dismiss it as:
    A. "Jesus never said that"
    B. "Even if Jesus said it, He didn't mean it that way"
    C. "Even if Jesus said it, He said it in another language"
    D. "Even if Jesus said it, the gospel author did not preserve it correctly"
    E. "Even if it's in the Bible, that's not what it means"
    F. "Even if it's in the Bible, what about those books that aren't in the Bible?"
    .... and so on.

    So what's the point? You want to justify your sin, so you'll disregard the negative things the Bible says about a man lying with another man, you'll twist other passages into being approving of homosexual behaviors, and you'll attack anyone who speaks biblical truth while playing the victim. Romans 14:22b says, “Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” If you want to approve and encourage what God has called sin, all I can say is, may God have mercy on you.

    We've been over this enough; you've heard the truth but rejected it. If you want to drop it, fine. But if you insist on proclaiming as good that which the Bible says is immoral, I will be here, as will a bunch of others who stand strong on the Word of God.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:48 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    You came on a Christian forum and proclaimed that homosexual behavior is approved by God, that Jesus was homosexual, etc.

    I came to this web site to read articles about Christianity and joined the discussion to correct absurd ideas. We are all called to bring out lives into accordance with God's Word. If you will not accept help with understanding what God's Word says, that's fine, but if you will not return to orthodoxy, at least stop spreading heresy.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Honestly, I don't think there is even any plausible evidence that He ever used the word at all in the texts that we have. If He spoke Greek at all, it was not His native language, and it was not the language of the people He was speaking to either.

    He would have been speaking Aramaic.

    What you are demanding of other people is extraordinary and bizarre. You are demanding that we destroy our own lives. We are to destroy what brings us happiness in order to satisfy *you*.

    Such an extreme demand on your part requires *extraordinarily* clear proof.

    What you are offering is "oh I see how *you* could think that if you assume A, B, C, D, and E."

    This is why you should drop it, and let other people live our lives in peace.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:16 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Mathetes wrote: "As I have shown you, many authors including Jesus, Paul, Philo, and Cephalio used the term porneia" [and what they meant included homosexuality]

    Would you mind giving a quick recap? Where did Jesus state that by the word "porneia" He meant what you are claiming?

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:06 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Mathetes wrote: "Are you so stubborn you won’t accept someone trying to help you understand?"

    You aren't trying to help anyone understand.

    You are trying to justify your hostility toward gay people, and to encourage other people to be hostile toward gay people.

    And you are taking God's name in vain in order to do it.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:26 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Hman,
    [HMan] Mathetes, in that example you find a way to excuse a simple declarative statement from Jesus that you disagree with.

    [M] I don’t disagree with anything Jesus said. Where did you get that idea? I am trying to explain God’s Word to someone who does not understand it. I've studied rabbinic argumentation: lesser to greater, greater to lesser, etc. Have you? Are you so stubborn you won’t accept someone trying to help you understand?

    [HMan] Yet in the same post, you require your reader to agree with you on an untenable scenario, that Jesus spoke in Greek to a Jewish audience:

    [M] Did you forget that a majority of Jesus’ disciples were also from the Galilee? They all spoke Greek as part of daily life.

    [M, orig. post] "What is you evidence that He NEVER spoke in Greek?"

    [HMan] AND the reader must also agree with you that He meant not the everyday interpretation of a Greek word, but an expanded definition that is required in order for you to justify browbeating gay people.

    [M] Nice dodge. Rather than present any evidence, you attack your opponent. Sweet. As I have shown you, many authors including Jesus, Paul, Philo, and Cephalio used the term porneia in its REGULAR SENSE. You are the one creating a new, narrower meaning for the word porneia, again with no evidence to support your new meaning.

    [HMan] You require not just one but two steps of convoluted reasoning to defend your hostility. You are mistaken. Just drop it. You will be so much happier when you realize that God is not hate. God is love.

    YOU really should give it up: the lies, the homosexual activity, all of it. You're making up stuff to justify your sin, instead of accepting God's truth and repenting. God is love: He loves sinners, and God hates sin. These two truths are both taught in the Bible. The sooner you return to God – confess your sin, ask for forgiveness through Jesus – the better.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:05 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    "No, that phrase relies on a rabbinic method of argumentation."

    Mathetes, in that example you find a way to excuse a simple declarative statement from Jesus that you disagree with.

    Yet in the same post, you require your reader to agree with you on an untenable scenario, that Jesus spoke in Greek to a Jewish audience:

    "What is you evidence that He NEVER spoke in Greek?"

    AND the reader must also agree with you that He meant not the everyday interpretation of a Greek word, but an expanded definition that is required in order for you to justify browbeating gay people.

    You require not just one but two steps of convoluted reasoning to defend your hostility.

    You are mistaken. Just drop it.

    You will be so much happier when you realize that God is not hate. God is love.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:53 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Delight,

    I did not see your answer when I began composing mine, but thank you for saying it more eloquently that I did. God bless you, sister.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:51 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Hman wrote:
    "You are obsessed with an irrelevant detail."

    Well, you can call the truth an irrelevant detail... oh wait, you do, every time you claim the Bible does not mean what it plainly says.

    "If Jesus said the sentence at all, He said it in Aramaic, not Greek."

    You can perhaps prove Jesus spoke Aramaic on three occasions, but the rest of Jesus' words are recorded in Greek. What is you evidence that He NEVER spoke in Greek? Jesus was, after all, from the Galilee, the most Greek-influenced area in all of Israel.

    "He *did* specifically say that you are obliged to hate your wife and children if you want to be His disciple. *That* phrase does not depend on a Greek ambiguity, but you are not browbeating heterosexual husbands and fathers into despising their families."

    No, that phrase relies on a rabbinic method of argumentation. God said the same thing in Malachi 1, where God said He loved Jacob but hated Esau. The difference between the love God showed to both men was so great, it appeared that He hated Esau.

    "Well guess what? You're doing the same thing to us. What you are writing here is sociopathic."

    What I'm doing here is opposing anyone who would twist God's truth into a lie. What you are writing here is doing just that.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:40 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    >>"obliged to hate your wife and children if you want to be His disciple.">>

    You read this incorrectly...Jesus didn't advocate hate. In comparision with our love for others, our love for Jesus Christ should eclipse any other love to the point that the word "hate" is used to show the distinction.

    Your misunderstanding of Scripture in this way confirms the old adage:
    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:34 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

    Mathetes wrote: "pornēia"

    You are obsessed with an irrelevant detail.

    If Jesus said the sentence at all, He said it in Aramaic, not Greek.

    He *did* specifically say that you are obliged to hate your wife and children if you want to be His disciple. *That* phrase does not depend on a Greek ambiguity, but you are not browbeating heterosexual husbands and fathers into despising their families.

    If you were, you would be a sociopath.

    Well guess what? You're doing the same thing to us. What you are writing here is sociopathic.

    Is there somebody you can talk with about this? It is harmful to you and to other people around you.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:18 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    "To continually claim that porneia = prostitution only is to ignore the evidence that it means any illicit sexual activity outside of the marriage of one man and one woman."

    They HAVE to ignore it. After all, if they faced the truth then they would have to face their sin. It's nothing more than classic denial....

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:17 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    "But you're predominately on topics having to do with homosexuality in some way. Funny thing about that......"

    Ummm...that is because it is the predominate topic. DUH!!!

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Good morning, all. Since some people continue to insist that porneia refers only to prostitution, here is the etymology of the word from its earliest root:

    praō = to traverse or cross over, as crossing over the sea

    pernēmi = to export for sale, esp. captives sold overseas for slaves

    pornē (also written as porna) = prostitute, because often female slaves were used for sex

    pornos = male prostitute (same word w/masculine ending), but in NT it is translated as a fornicator, one who practices sexual immorality of any type

    pornēia = prostitution, fornication, of every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse (definition from B-G-D’s Grk-Eng Lexicon of the NT, but also used to refer to any kind of illegal intercourse by classical Greek authors such as Philo, Cephalio, and others)

    So, to say that porneia only means prostitution is to artificially limit its range of meaning, that is, to make it mean something narrower than how authors and readers of the day understood it. Porneia = fornication or illegal sexual activity in general, of which prostitution is only one small part.

    The case in 1 Corinthians 5 was correctly described by Paul as porneia, a forbidden/illegal sexual relationship in which money played no part. In 1 Cor 7:2, Paul wrote: “Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.” Paul wrote this not to ban prostitution only, but any sexual activity outside the marriage of one man and one woman.

    To continually claim that porneia = prostitution only is to ignore the evidence that it means any illicit sexual activity outside of the marriage of one man and one woman.

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:52 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    JESUS IS EVERYTHING -PAUL WASHER

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8JzyaPiayo&annotation_id=annotation_337594&feature=iv

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:43 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    ...weeping for the souls who are deceived
    ====================================
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIV-KseO_1E

  • Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:21 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    " This is Christian Post. You must have taken a wrong turn on the information super highway...."

    But you're predominately on topics having to do with homosexuality in some way. Funny thing about that......

  • Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:33 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Goodnight to all the sad closeted people who come here to whine out of their frustration.

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