Christian kids are typically sent to Sunday school for lessons on the Bible and morals. For nonbelievers, there's atheist Sunday school.
With an estimated 14 percent of Americans professing to have no religion, according to the Institute for Humanist Studies, some are choosing to send their children to classes that teach ethics without religious belief.
Bri Kneisley sent her 10-year-old son, Damian, to Camp Quest Ohio this past summer after a neighbor had shown him the Bible.
"Damian was quite certain this guy was right and was telling him this amazing truth that I had never shared," said Kneisley, who realized her son needed to learn about secularism, according to Time magazine.
Camp Quest, also dubbed "The Secular Summer Camp," is offered for children of atheists, freethinkers, humanists and other nonbelievers who hold to a "naturalistic, not supernatural world view," the camp website states.
The summer camp, offered across North America and supported by the Institute for Humanist Studies, is designed to teach rational inquiry, critical thinking, scientific method, ethics, free speech, and the separation of religion and government.
Kneisley welcomes the sense of community the camp offers her son.
"He's a child of atheist parents, and he's not the only one in the world," she said, according to Time.
Atheist and humanist programs are expected to pop up in such cities as Phoenix, Albuquerque, N.M., and Portland, Ore., and adult nonbelievers are leaning on such secular Sunday schools to help teach their kids values and how to respond to the Christian majority in the United States.
Outspoken atheist Richard Dawkins argues that teaching faith to children can be dangerous, noting the possibility of extremism.
"The point about teaching children that faith is a virtue is that you're teaching them that you don't have to justify what you do, you can simply shelter behind the statement 'that's my faith and you're not to question that,'" he argued in a debate with Christian apologist John Lennox last month.
A recent study by Ellison Research, however, found that most Americans who attended church as a child say their past worship attendance has had a positive impact on them. The majority, including those who no longer currently attend religious services, said their attendance at church as a child gave them a good moral foundation and that they are glad they attended.
Yet today, nonbelievers want their children to participate in Sunday school the secular way.
"I'm a person that doesn't believe in myths," says Hana, 11, who attends the Humanist Community Center in Palo Alto, Calif., according to Time. "I'd rather stick to the evidence."
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To annie... I want to go on about your claims. Feeling emotions even if they are immensly powerful, does not justify a being one cannot see or hear. To somewhat clarify the situation, an example, people can fall in love with a concept. Democracy is a beautiful concept that when I first fully understood it, I had quite an emotional experience, a pride for my country and for the founders who created it, for their insight and intellect, for their bravery and courage in daring to do such a brilliant feat that help progress humanity as a whole. I can love this concept, I can love plenty of concepts, ideals and ideas. The idea of a God who loves and forgives you no matter what you do is a beautiful concept. It is not hard to imagine that a person would fall in love with such a concept. But just because you simply felt an emotion over a concept does not mean that concept now exists. You can be intimately intertwined with a concept, on so many different levels, but it does not mean that concept comes to life, or that any character read out of a fictional novel is true either. I just finished reading Gone with the wind, and there was this darling creature of a lady named Melanie, who was one of the kindest ladies ive ever heard of. No matter how fond I was of her, it does not mean she will ever exist. By all means if I had obssessed over her she could have become the center of my life as well, always thinking about her and comparing her with other women maybe even falling in love and having a 'relationship' with her. I know this sounds rude, but really that is exactly how an atheist views this and thats the sad fact of the matter. I dont like that I should ever tell a person that I believe they are worshiping a fictional character, but I am not in control over everything life hands me.
First of all I'd like to say that I hadnt expected anyone to respond to me so i stopped checking on this.
To Annie:
I appreciate that you are learning to try and debate civily, it is very important if you ever want to get anywhere with anyone. Attacking a person never gets anyone to hear what youre saying. Rather it makes them repellant, and defensive, and then they wont want to hear anything you say. As to your response to me, I disagree completely. I have never had a relationship with God, not once in my entire life, even when I was slightly religious. If I had, I would be religious today. If I didnt know the meaning of love, I honestly can say I would not be able to live in this world. As most people would probably agree with me. Its a wonderful thing that you got out of the abyss you were in. I just think you have a misconception of the way the human mind works.
To Schumacr
God created the rules that govern this world. He may have given us free will but he gave us the freedom to choose evil. You say it is the absence of Good, but who defined what the absence of good would be? Theres still a flaw in that logic. Also if God can defy logic, can he make a rock he cannot lift? Im sure youve heard quite a few of those :P. Also if he cant create evil than he is not all powerful, and he did not create the rules that govern this world. Trees may rot, but it was God who decided they would rot as opposed to turn to stone or something else entirely. .
Your response about the creation of Adam Eve and Lucifer seems to suggest that you dont believe that God did not already know what they would do, making him not all knowing.
As for morality, I believe all people know the difference between right and wrong. If you wish to fight for the word morality, then you may have it, but I do not believe that God and Religion can claim morality for themselves. If this were true you would have to ask which religions morality is right, and why arnt all atheists immoral snobs who go around killing people?
TokenSP – you’ve asked some good questions, so I’ll try and respond as briefly as I can, although the subject matter is deep. First, you cannot give what you don’t have, so God did not create evil. Evil is not a thing; it is a privation or corruption in a thing – like rot on a tree can’t exist without the tree or rust on a car can’t exist without the car. Just as sickness is the absence of health and darkness is the absence of light; this is what evil really is. All evil can be traced back to one thing – the misuse of freedom. God granted man freedom, but freedom means just that – being able to choose poorly. For God to excise evil, He would need to remove freedom; this is like cutting off your good leg because your foot hurts. For a full treatment of this, see Alvin Plantiga’s book “God, Freedom, and Evil”. God created the possibility of evil, but is not the author of the acts of evil at all.
Why did God create Lucifer and Adam and Eve if He knew what they’d do? Do you have kids yourself? If so, why did you have them when you knew they’d disobey you and possibly not love you in the end? This mixes back in with freedom; we have the freedom to choose or turn from God, but those who choose Him do so freely and those who reject Him do so freely. Anything else would be forced and forced love is nothing but rape.
Finally, torus and I went a few rounds on this next point. As an atheist, you have no basis for calling anything evil. If there’s such a thing as evil, you assume there’s such a thing as good. If you assume there’s such a thing as good, you assume there’s such a thing as a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil (as C.S. Lewis said - you can't recognize a crooked line unless you know what a straight one looks like). If you assume there’s such a thing as a moral law, you must posit a moral law giver, but that’s whom you’re trying to disprove. This is why Dawkins says there is no such thing as evil or good; the position is consistent with atheism.
On your question of making humans from dust, realize that if you acknowledge a God who created everything from nothing, this is no problem; admit God and you admit miracles, that is the bargain as C. S. Lewis said. But your position is more troublesome because, as an atheist, you have to explain scientifically how you get something from nothing.
Thanks!
GMG, I've appreciated your discussion also and Schumacr, I've really appreciated the things you have written as that has helped this young (in the faith that is) :o) believer to understand some things I really didn't know either. I also appreciate the respect that you have shown to those who don't believe, that is refreshing indeed. That is the approach I want to cultivate as well.
I was an unbeliever myself and so I know what that feels like, and I am so thankful to Jesus for setting this captive free.
Thank you Nerohdam! :o) I know, the Lord delivered me from the very gutter of life and it is a privilege and a pleasure to witness for Him!
I want to give you a real eyeopener to something that is happening in my part of the country (Boston, MA USA) The Holy Spirit is moving through many of the downtrodden and homeless (myself included) and raising us up as witnesses of His glory! It is amazing to watch the events happening in Massachusetts!!! Please keep our area in prayer as revival has begun and is escalating! Praise the Lord!
It is beautiful to watch the LORD take those the world shuns and discards and HE restores and His love heals in ways that people are on fire here! There is a youth fire building here also, even among the colleges here!
As for those who have money and think they don't need God! Well, there is also a movement amongst communities that are considered well-to-do here and The Lord is moving many of us into these areas, through mission churches and many of the affluent are coming to Christ as well!
Money doesn't satisfy and many are looking around and seeing the escalation of violence and madness in this world, and asking; isn't there more to life than this?? Well, God is using people like myself to show them the LOVE of GOD!
Praise the LORD!
To TokenSP: You totally missed the whole point. It is not a religion. I have a real, genuine relationship with Almighty God. You and no one else can invalidate what has happened in my life.
I never have had the relationship that I have with GOD; with any human. You fail to understand GOD is not a man, HE is Spirit and HE is truth! I have NEVER experienced love until I met GOD that was my point.
I learned from a very early age that this world is evil and I am so thankful that Almighty GOD has opened my heart to see Him and to know Him and to finally experience true love, God is love and I realize now that I was so depressed because I was so far away from HIM!
Every human being gropes for HIM whether they acknowledge HIM or not! We are all created to worship something; and if we don't worship GOD, we worship something else, usually ourselves!
See, God is the center of my life now, I used to be the center of my own world, and I am truly thankful that HE loved me so much that HE showed me the way out of this life.
Jesus Christ, is not a religion, HE is GOD and I am HIS witness that HE is real! One day TokenSP and not too far off; every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that HE is LORD!
Thank you Lord God!
Torus:
OK, understood, I see what you’re getting to. I would respectfully put forth that all historical accounts are selective in one way or another; rarely if ever will you have *everything* that happened at a past event. There is a difference between condensing an account and excluding material that produces a different understanding. There is really no reason to conclude that a historian cannot properly arrange events to communicate the truth.
By verified archaeological evidence, I refer to all the documented evidence that backs up the places, peoples, and events of the Bible. For example, in the OT, Sodom, Jericho, etc., are all discovered and explored sites. Ditto the people of the OT like King David and others. As an example in the New Testament, Dr. Colin Hemer’s “The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History” records hundreds of archaeological discoveries that verifies what Luke wrote about in Acts. For example, they have James, Jesus’ brother’s tomb and know exactly how/when he was martyred.
Let me ask you this: for the sake of argument, strip out all the miracles/supernatural descriptions in the Bible. How would you feel about it then?
Thanks again for the dialog.
Schumacr -
Perhaps "poorly interpreted" is a better phrase. Just skimming passages of the OT which are supposed to reference real events leads one to notice that things are so vaguely put and selectively chosen that the correspondence is weak indeed. Throw in the fact that people do and have (over the millennia) acted in accordance with the prophecy and have a preconceived notion which guides their interpretation and trouble abounds!
How is the bible "verified archaeological evidence? It is a set of passaged written by followers of a prophet. It succumbs to the same issues brought up in the previous paragraph.
And making people from mud is scientifically impossible. There are not enough elements in mud to make people. And it would seem to me that the odds are equal of both scenarios if not skewed in that abiogenesis is more likely. Abiogenesis occured for billions of years, while humans have lived for millions. A fraction a very SMALL fraction of the life span of the earth. It was something like 5.5billion years the world was non-existant of animals in general then for a few million years, animals popped up. The theory for life is that RNA constructed itself in nature, RNA being a non-living thing, but it is a very VERY important thing to human beings. RNA produces DNA and that is how life is feasibly possible. It took billions of years for RNA to randomly occur, and the only thing they needed to find was an RNA that would self replicate, and they have found that RNA. And that is where we stand with evolution.
True, but that would mean God doesnt have free will. Seems to me that to say he can do nothing but good is contradictory in practice and putting a limitation on God in theory. My explanation is as thus, saying that God can do no evil means that there are things he cannot create and things he cannot do. This is to say, it is not that he wont do it or that he chooses not to be evil, it is that he cannot do evil. Its contradictory in practice because then you would have to explain why evil exists, why God creatd the devil, why God allows for sin, etc etc. the list goes on. In theory it limits him because God would not have been able to create the devil, if he was unable to do evil. He would not have given Adam and Eve the opportunity to be evil, and evil quite franly would not exist. So God has to be able to do evil, in order to make a world such as ours.
Hi TokenSP. You’ve made a couple of good observations/comments I’d like to respond to.
<<. I offered the example that God could order you to stand on your foot and you had to obey because it would be morally right. They argued well God would never do that, he would only do what is good. Exactly, God commands things that are good because good. He adheres to a universal morality. >>
You are correct in saying that God is not voluntaristic (arbitrary) in nature – being able to, for example, say today lying is bad, but tomorrow it’s OK. However, God does not adhere to a universal morality – He IS that morality. Goodness and therefore the moral law flows from His nature/essence. This is a major differentiator between the God as revealed in the Bible and the god of Islam, which has no such essence and is very much an arbitrary God of voluntarism.
<< Whats more, it amuses me that people will argue that God cant do what is logically impossible but then still say that we were made from mud.>>
But is it any more outlandish to propose that intelligent life arose from a non-intelligent source and that the process was from the goo to the zoo to you? I think it’s far cleaner to believe that an intelligent source created intelligent life. Further, while Christians need just one big miracle for everything, the atheist needs about a billion little miracles to explain everything that we know.
<< Life experiences does not validate religion. >>
Well said; excellent point. Experience can not always serve as the litmus test for truth. Now make no mistake, testimonies that you’ve read from Annie and others are quite real; when I accepted Christ, I changed very much as well - our God is indeed one who transforms lives. But behind that very same God is truth, substance, and the ability to know Him both from his general revelation (nature, logic, reason, philosophy, etc.) and special revelation (the Bible). In short, Christianity rests firmly on content, not wishful thinking or experiential feelings. It is both intellectually robust and experientially satisfying.
Hi again torus. So all the Bible is nothing more than old documents that are poorly translated? First, I’d ask where your proof is that they are poorly translated, because there’s quite a bit of scholarly research that stands contrary to that assertion. Moreover, do you hold all historical documents from antiquity to be dubious or only ones that mix in the concept of God with verified archaeological evidence like the Bible? How do you know anything about history without relying on the recorded eyewitness testimony of those who were there (as in the New Testament)?
I don’t disagree with you that starting from a flawed foundation and working upward/outward from there produces flawed results, but that’s not what we have with the Bible.
AnniefourJesus - you're an inspiration.
TokenSP - anniefourjesus is not talking about religion. She is not even talking about the phrase personal relationship. She is talking about something that is far better and greater.
In regard to religion, how are things going with your Mormon walk?
AnniefourJesus -
You are not delusional. As I am sure you and I are well aware. I minister to the downtrodden and homeless and I know they are probably some of the most realistic people you will ever find. A lot of them know this world and the trappings in this world more than some of you will ever know but as a result they have the eyes to see and ears to hear. The beatitudes are a beautiful thing are they not? :)