Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Mon November 23, 2009

World|Tue, Dec. 04 2007 03:14 PM EST

Pope: Atheism Led to 'Greatest Forms of Cruelty'

By Peter B. Beita|Christian Post Reporter

Pope Benedict XVI has strongly criticized atheism and blamed it for bringing about the ”greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice” ever known in history.

In the second encyclical of his papacy, the head of the world’s one billion Catholics also criticized modern-day Christianity, saying its focus on individual salvation had ignored Jesus' message that true Christian hope involves salvation for all.

In the 76-page document titled ”Spe Salvi,“ or “Saved by Hope,” Benedict said that many people rejected religious faith because they no longer found the prospect of an eternal after-life attractive.

Instead, they had put their faith in human reason and freedom in the hope that the "kingdom of man" would emerge.

In his scholarly analysis, the 81-year-old pontiff said that these ideas had originated during two periods of political upheaval – the French and Communist revolutions.

While Benedict came down heavily on Karl Marx and the 19th and 20th century atheism spawned by his revolution, the pope acknowledged that both were responding to the deep injustices of the time.

Marxism, Benedict wrote, had left behind "a trail of appalling destruction" because it failed to realize that man could not be "merely the product of economic conditions." For man to be redeemed, he also needs God's unconditional love.

"It is no accident that this idea (Marxism/Atheism) has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice, rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim", he wrote. "A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope."

Benedict also cited Vladimir Lenin, the founder of the Soviet Union, and the "intermediate phase" of dictatorship that Marx saw as necessary in the revolution.

"This 'intermediate phase' we know all too well, and we also know how it then developed, not ushering in a perfect world, but leaving behind a trail of appalling destruction," the pope wrote.

Commenting on the pope’s latest encyclical, Monsignor Robert Wister, professor of church history at Seton Hall University in the United States, explained that the pope's concern “is that you have secularizing forces that are trying to eliminate religion from public and private life."

"In most countries, political Marxism is dead [but] philosophical Marxism is very much alive and it fuels the secularizing philosophy often seen in Europe and North America," Wister said, according to the Associated Press.

At the same time, Benedict also looked critically at the way modern Christianity had responded to the times, saying such a "self-critique" was also necessary.

"We must acknowledge that modern Christianity, faced with the successes of science in progressively structuring the world, has to a large extent restricted its attention to the individual and his salvation," the pope wrote. "In doing so, it has limited the horizon of its hope and has failed to recognize sufficiently the greatness of its task."

The Christian concept of hope and salvation, the pontiff stated, was not always so individual-centric.

Quoting scripture and theologians, Benedict said salvation had in the earlier church been considered "communal" — illustrating his point by using the case of monks in the Middle Ages who cloistered themselves in prayer not just for their own salvation but for that of others.

"How could the idea have developed that Jesus' message is narrowly individualistic and aimed only at each person singly? How did we arrive at this interpretation of the 'salvation of the soul' as a flight from responsibility for the whole, and how did we come to conceive the Christian project as a selfish search for salvation which rejects the idea of serving others?" he asked.

While seeking to provide answers, the pope said there are ways for the faithful to learn and practice true Christian hope – in prayer, in suffering, in taking action and in looking at the Last Judgment as a symbol of hope.

"Only God can create justice. And faith gives us the certainty that He does so. The image of the Last Judgment is not primarily an image of terror, but an image of hope; for us it may even be the decisive image of hope. Is it not also a frightening image? I would say: it is an image that evokes responsibility, an image, therefore, of that fear of which Saint Hilary spoke when he said that all our fear has its place in love. God is justice and creates justice."

The first encyclical from Pope Benedict XVI was "God is Love," released last year. The third one is expected to be on ”Faith,” as it will complete the three Christian theological virtues – faith, hope and love.

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  • Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    “Oh Mother of my God and my Lady Mary, as a poor wounded and loathsome wretch presents himself to a great queen, I present my self to thee, who art the queen of heaven and earth.” (a portion of prayer in The Glories of Mary - Translated From the Italian of St. Alphonsus Liguori - New Revised Edition - 1888)

    The Holy Spirit would not lead the wounded and the wretched to present themselves to Mary, but to Jesus, the one who suffered and died for all mankind.

    “I said, Lord, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee” (Ps 41:4).

    Jesus said, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light” (Mt 11:28-30).

  • Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Wilderness-

    Were you not intimately united with your mother? Maybe it is different for Protestants, but I know that Catholics honor thy mother and father as it says in the ten commandments. Since it is a commandment and Mary was Jesus' mother, and Jesus referred to all as his brothers and sisters, Mary is our mother and we honor her as a mother. I think I have said this before... but you keep incessantly posting from sites and do not even adress it. Huh.

  • Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    “The perfect example of this type of spiritual and apostolic life is the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Apostles, who while leading the life common to all here on earth, one filled with family concerns and labors, was always intimately united with her Son and in an entirely unique way cooperated in the work of the Savior.” (Pope Paul VI - Decree on the Apostolate of Laity - 1965)

    Paul VI says that Mary “was always intimately united with her son…” According to the Word of God, that would not be correct:

    Luke 2:42-50
    Matthew 12:47-50
    John 2:1-4

  • Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:42 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

    How did Luke 1:28 get to…

    Holy Mary, Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of Virgins, Mother of Christ, Mother of divine grace, Mother most pure, Mother most chaste, Mother inviolate, Mother undefiled, Mother most amiable, Mother most admirable, Mother of good Counsel, Mother of our Creator, Mother of our Savior, Virgin most prudent, Virgin most venerable, Virgin most renowned, Virgin most powerful, Virgin most merciful, Virgin most faithful, Mirror of justice, Seat of wisdom, Cause of our joy, Spiritual vessel, Vessel of honor, Singular vessel of devotion, Mystical rose, Tower of David, Tower of ivory, House of gold, Ark of the covenant, Gate of heaven, Morning star, Health of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Comforter of the afflicted, Help of Christians, Queen of Angels, Queen of Patriarchs, Queen of Prophets, Queen of Apostles, Queen of Martyrs, Queen of Confessors, Queen of Virgins, Queen of all Saints, Queen conceived without original sin, Queen assumed into heaven, Queen of the most holy Rosary, Queen of peace. (Litany of Loreto)

    Mother of love and indulgence, Mother of the golden light, Honor of the sky, Harbinger of peace, Gate of heaven, Golden casket, Couch of love and mercy, Temple of the Divinity, Beauty of virgins, Mistress of the tribes, Fountain of the gardens, Cleansing of sins, Washing of souls, Mother of orphans, Breast of the infants, Refuge of the wretched, Star of the sea, Handmaid of God, Mother of Christ, Abode of the Godhead, Graceful as the dove, Serene like the moon, Resplendent like the sun, Destruction of Eve s disgrace, Regeneration of life, Perfection of women, Chief of the virgins, Garden enclosed, Fountain sealed, Mother of God, Perpetual Virgin, Holy Virgin, Prudent Virgin, Serene Virgin, Chaste Virgin, Temple of the Living God, Throne of the Eternal King, Sanctuary of the Holy Spirit, Virgin of the root of Jesse, Cedar of Mount Lebanon, Cypress of Mount Sion, Crimson rose in the land of Jacob, Fruitful like the olive, Blooming like the palm, Glorious son-bearer, Light of Nazareth, Glory of Jerusalem, Beauty of the world, Noblest born of the Christian people, Queen of life, Ladder of Heaven. (Ancient Irish Litany)

    I believe God gave Jesus, not Mary, a name above every name. “Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil 2:9-11).

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    That proves nothing; what are you trying to accomplish by reveling in recent political events?

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes, but I'm sure the two Catholics who signed the constitution would be very happy that the Church now has official ties with the US...thank you Ronald Reagan. I don't see the two as in conflict with each other. As for the Peter - Pope debate - I could give you verses (like I did last time) and around and around we go.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    I disagree. The Presidential candidate should be elected for his willingness to support the constitution of the U.S. – period. Since you brought up Peter again; I would say –

    The scriptures say the exact opposite; If Peter was supreme, the disciples would not have been debating among themselves as to who was considered the greatest - Luke 22:24-30.

    Paul says that he was not inferior to any other apostle in 2Corinthians 12:11 and Paul is the prominent figure in Acts 13-28.

    The papacy is not mentioned in the church structure recorded in 1Corinthians 12:28 - which includes apostles, prophets, and teachers.

    If Peter was supreme, he would have been the one sending others instead of being sent by others to Samaria - Acts 8:14.

    James is the dominant person at the Jerusalem council - Acts 15:13-35 and Paul rebuked Peter to his face because he was in error - Galatians 2:11-14. The fact that there is no mention of Peter visiting Paul in prison at Rome says he was not there and Paul who wrote Romans while in Rome never greets Peter in his letter.

    Finally, the scriptures teach that Jesus is the Rock on which he would be his church –

    As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed –Romans 9:23.

    And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ – 1Corinthians 10:4.

    And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed – 1Peter 2:8

    And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; - Ephesians 2:20.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:30 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Archdiocese of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, on World Youth Day: "The Prime Minister has been a very strong supporter of World Youth Day 2008, and we remain grateful for his personal commitment to the event and for the support of the government at all levels."

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him,

    I think the bible is pretty clear about our duties to spread the Good News of our Lord and Savior. Since I feel that the Church was the Church that was mentioned in the bible and the keys to it were given to Peter then I should help in the spread and strengthening of the Church.
    For example,
    The Australian government is kicking in about 100million to make this a reality: http://www.wyd2008.org/
    That is why it's important to get involved in government. Give to Cesar what is Cesar's but give to God what is God's.

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    truthandjustice1,

    . . . . . . . . the person chosen needs to pro-Catholic. Why would he NEED to be pro Catholic?

  • Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Well we will agree to disagree, but right now I have to get involved in the political direction of this country because the person chosen needs to pro-Catholic.

  • Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    wilderness,

    Thumbs up!

  • Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Pope Pius IX said…

    “Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears…” (The Immaculate Conception - 1854)

    The Word of God says…

    “For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.” (Pr 3:26)

    “According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.” (Ephesians 3:11, 12)

    Pius IX exhorts one to have confidence in Mary, but the Word of God exhorts one to have confidence in the Lord. Shall we believe God or man?

  • Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,


    Actually, I did read the article that you recommended. The author of the article asked:


    What is the point in quoting these words?


    Does it really matter how long ago the pope said what he said? No, he still said it. I don't agree with his interpretation of James chapter 2. We have talked about this on another occaision; James was talking about someone who "said" or claimed he had faith. He actually did not.

  • Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:37 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Pope Pius IX said…

    “Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary…” (The Immaculate Conception - 1854)

    Jesus said…

    “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” (Matthew 6:6)

    Somebody is lying. Who is it? Would it be better to obey God or man?

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him,

    Did you read that short article about Ankerberg?

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    My point is that he hosted a program where the "issues" of the ECT document were discussed by his guests.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:02 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    In Acts 1, the disciples were commanded to wait for the gift of the Holy Ghost in Jerusalem. While in Jerusalem “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren” (Act 1:14). Notice how the Holy Spirit wisely identified Mary as part of the assembly. Much is gained from her identification among the disciples.

    Firstly, we are shown that they were praying with each other and not to each other. Secondly, we are shown that Mary needed to be obedient (tarry in Jerusalem), that she needed to receive the promise and the power to be a personal witness, and that she too needed to offer prayers and supplications unto God.

    While in Jerusalem, they was all filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4). A crowd assembled and Peter stood up with the eleven and began speaking. He referred to the Prophet Joel, “And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy” (Acts 2:18). He also said, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36).

    How did the crowd respond? “…When they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:37, 38).

    There were two conditions to meet for receiving the gift of the Spirit. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.” That means that all the disciples, the women, Mary, and Jesus’ brethren had already met those requirements.

    God promised to pour his Spirit out on his handmaidens. Mary called herself a handmaiden of God. “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden…” (Luke 1:48). She no doubt received the Spirit that day as a handmaiden participant in the prophecy of Joel, but only because she had repented, being baptized for the remission of her sins at an earlier time.
    She was blessed, but she had no immaculate conception. She needed a saviour and she just happened to know one, and that my friend is a beautiful story to be told.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Ankerberg. There's a good review here:

    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9607fea2.asp

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    There is an excellant DVD on the ECT document called :Do Roman Catholics and Evangelical Protestants Now Agree? You can check it out at - www.ankerburg.com.

    You can even watch a portion of it on the same web site.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:35 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    I have a nice library of both Protestant and Catholic material from which to read from. There are author’s who do support dialogue or unity with the RCC as you mentioned but that does not mean that I necessarily agree with everything they say. Both Catholics and Protestants are utilizing their resources and time to fight many social ills; however, I don’t believe they need to unite in order to do so. I will say this; ALL Christians WILL unite in the near future, maybe sooner than later but I do not believe this will be a good thing nor will it be of God.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:15 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him,

    I can't completely figure you out because 1 moment your referring to anti-Catholic sites the next you are referring to protestants like Norman Geisler. If you read his book about evangelicals and Catholics then you can clearly see that he believes that evangelicals and Catholics should join forces. Then you get into his book about St. Thomas Aquinas, he can't rave enough about what of the greatest saints the Catholic Church has ever had in its midst. Geisler is definitely supportive of the dialogue between Catholics and evangelicals, but I'm still not sure if you are.

  • Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:23 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    nope I don't have that book.
    R.C Sproul ....check this out:
    http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/sproul-just.htm

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Do you have the book: Letters Between a Catholic and an Evangelical - From Debate to Dialogue on the Issues That Seperate Us - by Fr. John R. Waiss and James G. McCarthy?

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I have that book as well; it is a well balanced approach to the issues that we have been discussing and a great study.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    What do you think of his book: Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences?

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:32 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    What limitations are you referring to? I think we have exhausted our discussion on our views of what God meant when he spoke to Peter. As I mentioned earlier; first, this passage does not support the origin of the papacy. Second, many of the church fathers did not agree that this verse establishes Peter as the head of the church; next, the entire New Testament does not support the RC claim and finally, there is no historical evidence (documents) that support Peter as being the first pope.

    I thought South Bend was a nice quiet community except for all of the college students going wild in the evenings . . . . . lol. This is the normative atmosphere for all universities; no point intended. I enjoyed the conversations with my family member’s peers and the actual campus was nice. I stopped in their bookstore and purchased the book, “Christian Apologetics” – by Norman Geisler.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:27 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    Where in scripture does the “Spirit of his Son” direct us to cry, “Mother Mary?” If such scriptural direction cannot be found, then what spirit would direct one to cry, “Mother Mary?”

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    That's my point it isn't whether they agree or not, it is the teaching of the church - period. They probably didn't all agree about the grades they received either, but rules are rules. You are right about some protestant churches being good about keeping family values. The problem is that these protestant churches are usually independently run, so their limited to their own congregations. I do believe that God was referring to the universal church when he gave Peter the keys.

    As for your family member graduating from Notre Dame - congrats it's a great school. I was really surprised to discover that the % of people in South Bend living below the poverty level is nearly 17%. What's your take on South Bend?

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,


    I think it is presumptuous to say that a "Protestant Church" would have done such and such; there are many sound conservative Protestant Churches that do not allow themselves to be swayed by the culture. There are some family members of mine who are "Catholic" but hardly agree with one another on many of the current social issues.


    For example, I attended a family member's graduation at Norte Dame not too long ago and had an opportunity to meet many of his peers. They did not all agree with the RCC teachings and were divided on many issues. I say this to point out that there are many within both communions who do not support or believe everything that has or is being taught.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Their a special interest group within the Catholic Church:

    the International Movement We Are Church asks Pope Benedict XVI for a personal meeting to launch an open, broad, constructive, and mutual dialogue on the current questions and problems in the Church. There was no reply to the first letter.

    The reply to the second letter, on instruction from the Vatican's Secretary of State, recommended dialogue with local bishops and priests.

    Please refer to my former statement by Pope John Paul II: You can't take a vote on morality. The Church isn't going to change its position because groups want to change. There are numerous so called Catholic groups. There is another one called catholics for choice,.... its a church of over 1 billion followers - it's hardly surprising. I'm not talking about groups wanting special meetings with the Pope to change church policy, I'm talking about church policy right now!! I think these groups also highlight the difference between how the Catholic and protestant churches handle such groups. A protestant church would have a meeting and try to find common ground, whereas the Pope says no! The word of God as evidenced in the scripture we read from in Church doesn't change, so why should the Church? The biggest complaint you will encounter about the Catholic Church is that it doesn't move with the times...God bless the Catholic Church for not moving with the times.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:26 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Tuthandjustice1,

    I agree with everything you just said. The way one can tell the difference is humbly seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit as they study the Word of God. The Word is not that difficult to understand when one studies it in its context


    I have to step out but will reply to any comments this afternoon. . . . . . Have a good one.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    We have been discussing theology in the context of the Church and you can't divide the two. If you are attending a Church that tells you that you are right in your interpretation of the scripture and then another member comes up and says that Ellen White (reference to your last church) stated that it actually means something completely different and the church agrees then which is right?

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:14 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Yes, but if you read the article I posted for Jester you will know that the Southern Baptist Church didn't prosecute their ministers involved in abuse because their churches are independently run. I'm not in any way, as Jester would have one believe, trying to dodge the Catholic priests abuse that took place - those priests and the Bishops who moved them to other churches will have to answer to God one day and I definitely would not want to be in their shoes on that day. I'll take a look at the site you listed. I hope it is better than the last site that informed me that the gospel was 6,000 years old.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:11 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,


    Yes, there are many SOCIAL issues where many disagree with one another; however, we have been discussion Theology not social logy.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    The Bible also makes reference to the prerequisite for unity; that is “TRUTH” as stated so clearly by Jesus Christ himself – “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD is truth – John 17:17.


    This is also from the same article you posted:
    Southern Baptist Convention president Frank Page said he would not take part in a "smokescreen leftwing liberal agenda" and others have alleged there are political overtones, considering the line-up of speakers and the timing of the event - which takes place during the U.S. presidential election year.

    The RCC is not as unified as you think it is; take a look at this site - www.we-are-church.org/.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    You see it with the people who were on one of the comment boards we were on. They didn't say they converted because of the role of Mary or the saints in the Catholic Church. They stated they converted because of the reverence we have the Lord our God in the Eucharist and that they are tired of the divisions within their previous protestant churches. Increasingly protestant churches aren't even united on aspects as fundamental as the family (abortion, gay marriage). They hear the gospel spoken in our church and know that everyday that the gospel is read in a Catholic Church it is the same verses around the world - we have unity. Our stances about the family is the same around the entire world. For example, the Church's view on contraception is the same in Africa as it is the US. However, some will say that the Church should change their perspective in Africa because of AIDS and people in the US say the Church should change their opinion in the US because the idea seems outdated. Pope John Paul II stated you can't take a vote on morality. That's why I love Ron Paul's statement about John Paul II: "He was a man of God, not a man of the state. He was not a policy maker, but rather a steward of long-established Catholic doctrine. His mission was to save souls, not serve the political agendas of any nation, party, or politician".

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:45 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him,

    Unity within the Church is extremely important. The bible makes reference to a home divided can't stand. Look at the article just posted on Christian Post about the Baptists:

    "For the first time in more than 160 years, Baptists in North America will have a major convocation next month and differences of race, politics, or legalistic interpretations of the Scriptures will not threaten their unity, said former president Jimmy Carter"

    Basically they shouldn't discuss their interpretations of scripture which are different. That is my whole point, you can have members of the same church having 2 completely different opinions about scripture, but neither is wrong. That is how the homosexual movement, abortion movement, agnostics/atheist movements,....are dividing these churches because they enter and nobody wants to point out that they are wrong. As a result what do they do? They have people like Hillary Clinton etc come and speak at the churches as being authoritative in a religious setting which they are not. You look at the Catholic Church, not only are people like John Kerry and Giuliani not allowed to address a Catholic audience in a Catholic Church, but a lot of Catholic Churches will not even give them the Eucharist ...why?? because the scripture is clear and our churches aren't divided.

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    Do you really think that posting continual references about church growth really proves anything? This is the funniest notion of all. What do you think about the role of the Holy Spirit?

  • Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:00 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I still think this one was is funnier:
    "When a protestant leader is caught in the same situation, he either resigns or is removed completely from leadership".
    http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=838

    "The head of the world's one billion Catholics" :)

    The bottom line is that as the protestants continue to divide and the pentecostals continue to rise their will be no unity amongst them. I really like the latest story here on Christian Post about the largest student group at the University of Wisconsin being evangelical - evangelical Catholic that is :). The Catholic Church continues to meet with groups and as they divide some will return to the Catholic Church, this is happening in both the protestant movement at the moment (most notably with the Anglicans and Lutherans) and with the Eastern Orthodox churches. The most promising as the University of Wisconsin article pointed out is the next generation. Today towns are being built tomorrow there will be cities ...they can have their separate mega-churches we are thinking on a larger Catholic scale.
    http://www.winknews.com/news/local/12212951.html
    http://vatican.usembassy.gov/embassy/

    "As a global entity, the Holy See is influential on many issues and has far-reaching influence in even the most remote corners of the world". Now which Church is truly bringing the gospel to the whole world?

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    jester_in_the_Kings_court,

    LOL. . . . . that is too funny!

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Online4him,
    I think you misquoted that last scripture. I'm pretty sure it says:
    "For where two or three are gathered together in the Pope's name, there am I in the midst of them –Second Book of Opinions, Chapter 8, verse 6

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:41 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    To say, “you follow a church that has no authority” is absurd and unbiblical; did not Jesus say – “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them –Matthew 18:20.

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:40 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    You still fail to realize the role that the HOLY SPIRIT has in the lives of believers; this is evident because you continually insist that Christians need a magisterial council to understand scripture. Christians clearly understood and proclaimed the gospel long before the RCC came upon the world’s scene. There is only ONE authority in the church; that would be JESUS CHRIST who then told us that he would send the Comforter in his place – 1Corinthians 11:3 –

    “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ”.

    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body – Ephesians 5:23.

    Jesus says in John 16:7-15 that the Holy Spirit would be sent to us as our GUIDE and that HE would guide us into all TRUTH; not the magisterial council.

    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his –Romans 8:9.

    For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God –Romans 8:14.

    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Corinthians 3:16.

    But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him -1John 2:27.

    Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 29, 3:6, 13, 22, says, -

    “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the SPIRIT saith unto the churches.”

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,


    The Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches have drafted a 46-page document as a first step towards a reunified church, The Times reports.
    The ‘Ravenna Document’ proposes a united church with the Pope as the universal Primate, as he was before 1054, when the Eastern and Western Churches divided. However, the draft implies that he would be asked to RELINQUISH the doctrine of Papal infallibility. The proposals would also strengthen the role of the Patriarch of Constantinople considered first among equals among Orthodox leaders.
    However, divisions within the Orthodox Church – especially between Constantinople and Moscow – mean that the document is unlikely to win the approval of the ENTIRE Orthodox community. The Russian Orthodox is the largest of the Orthodox Churches and is at loggerheads both with the Patriarch of Constantinople and with Rome. The Russian delegation WALKED OUT of the talks and was not present to agree the final text. (The Times and Bible Society Newswatch)

    First, this document is not universal as you suppose which is evident from the above news report. This is no different from the ECT document; all of Protestantism does not accept this document as universal.

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    “OUR CATHOLIC LITURGY is a grand and harmonious manifestation of man’s homage to God. Its words and ceremonies and devotions are the growth of centuries. The essentials of our Church s worship have been embellished with a wealth of ritual observance, of which each detail is symbolic of the purpose for which that worship is offered. The explanation of these manifold practices is the object of this work.” [Preface from the Externals of the Catholic Church]

    In our worship of God, we must remember, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).

    From the ECC preface, notice the words: grand, manifestation of man’s homage, words, ceremonies, devotions, embellished, ritual observance, the growth of centuries. How many popes have there been, and how many laws, rituals, and observances have they erroneously passed down?

    Our relationship with God is not to be a continual enlargement of one ritual after another. Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees, “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:8, 9). “But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments” (Matthew 23:5). Has Catholicism enlarged the borders of their garments?

    Inwardly, our enlargement should be Christ. Outwardly, our enlargement should be the image of Christ. In John 4:24 Jesus says, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” And in John 17:17 “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Online4Him,

    "Rome did not give us the canon as many catholic claim. It was the Eastern Orthodox Church that came up with the list of twenty-seven books first. The consensus by the Eastern Church was decided in 367, and the twenty-seven books were included in Athanasius' Easter letter from Alexandria. This decision was made twenty six years BEFORE Hippo..."

    The Eastern Orthodox church now recognizes the Pope as the head of the unified Church. Trust me I have a deep respect for those in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Catholic Church has been attempting from the beginning to re-establish the Church as a whole and now that it is coming the authority based on the canon is now clearly in the unified Catholic Church with the Pope as the head. It doesn't matter because now even with the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church together, as it was in the beginning, you still will follow a church that has no real authority to discern the canon. I'll stay with the Church that had the authority from the beginning. The Catholic Church + Eastern Orthodox Church with the Pope as the apostolic representative until God returns. Just like it was in the beginning will be how it will be in the end.

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    I will read your responding comments later this afternoon. . . . . . have a good one.

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    taj...
    you said "Truth is he [Jesus] gave them no written document. He taught orally and the disciples handed on his teaching by the spoken word." Because He is the Word? And he did quoted (what we now call) old testament scriptures all the time. And even read from the holy scriptures in the temple. So there was written scriptures at that time. And, now through God's provision, we have the new covenant scriptures to live by as well.

  • Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:48 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Truthandjustice1,

    Where did Jesus quote tradition?

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