Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Church|Wed, Oct. 29 2008 10:21 AM EDT

Pastors Preach Prop. 8 as Moral Issue

By Lawrence Jones|Christian Post Reporter

While the debate over Proposition 8 has included a variety of topics – from youth education to civil rights – many conservative Christian pastors around California have made it loud and clear that marriage is above all else a moral issue.

Influential pastor Rick Warren, who leads the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, has urged his flock to support Prop. 8, which would amend the California Constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman.

“For 5,000 years, every culture and every religion – not just Christianity – has defined marriage as a contract between men and women,” wrote Warren in his News & Views e-mail last week. “There is no reason to change the universal, historical definition of marriage to appease 2% of our population.”

In 2000, more than 61 percent of voters in California approved Prop. 22 to define marriage as between a man and a woman. However, the California Supreme Court decision overturned the will of the people this past May, ruling that same-sex couples could marry in the state. The approval of Prop. 8 would reverse the Court's ruling and preserve the traditional definition of marriage in the state's Constitution.

"This is not a political issue, it is a moral issue about which God has spoken clearly," Warren, author of the best-selling Purpose-Driven Life, stated in the e-mail. “There is no doubt where we should stand on this issue.”

Warren is joined by other California church pastors who have preached without compromise when it comes to the biblical definition marriage.

Among them is the Rev. Jim Garlow, whose Skyline Church in San Diego County hosted a rally in support of Prop. 8 last week. The event was broadcasted to over 170 churches across the Golden State.

During the simulcast event, Garlow urged Christians to fast and pray for the measure. He said people compromise their beliefs when their desire to be respected by others outweighs their reverent fear of God.

"We must fear God more than man – whatever it costs us," he said.

Garlow told The Associated Press that he found the issue to be "very spiritual" rather than "political" in nature.

The rally held at Garlow's church was the last of three church-oriented simulcast events in support of Prop. 8. The first broadcast took place on Thursday, Sept., 25 and the second on Wednesday, Oct. 1.

At the second rally, Miles McPherson, senior pastor of the Rock Church in San Diego, addressed the issue of love head-on, saying that love is matter of obedience to God and not just emotions.

"You do that (love) by obeying God. You do that by obeying according to His Word and not your emotion, not political correctness, not your feelings,” he told thousands of Christian youth at the event, which was presented over the internet to over 160 churches.

But not all pastors who affiliate themselves with the Christian faith are supporters of Prop. 8, despite what some may think.

Pastors opposing the measure, who usually hold more liberal viewpoints when it comes to biblical issues, see marriage as more of an issue of civil rights and civil contracts and say churches should not impose their religious views of marriage on the state's Constitution.

"Clergy, especially Baptist clergy, have no business acting as agents of the state, whether in making wedding proclamations on the state's behalf or in signing wedding licenses," the Rev. Rick Mixon, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Palo Alto, shared with The San Jose Mercury News. Continue »

Pages: 12
Sort by: Newest | Oldest | Agree | Disagree
All comments on this page are subject to our Terms of Use and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Christian Post or its staff.
1 | 2 | 3
  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:05 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    last time!:
    Be a shining example for Christ while being a great American too. Otherwise, are we any better than the Muslim extremist countries that enforce religious law on the masses????
    Think about it. I know that the gay issue is important to you. But they are your American neighbors. If you do no think drinking to excess is right, then do not drink. If you do not like fowl language, then do no spew it. If you do no like gay stuff, then do not do any of it. The bible says that adultery is wrong, but it would be crazy to try and criminalize it in this country. It is a private matter. You may not agree with who someone falls in love with or why, but it is wrong to try and make it illegal because you disagree because of your religious belief, right? That would be tyrannical.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    One more try!:
    Be a shining example for Christ while being a great American too. Otherwise, are we any better than the Muslim extremist countries that enforce religious law on the masses????
    Think about it. I know that the gay issue is important to you. But they are your American neighbors. If you do no think drinking to excess is right, then do not drink. If you do not like fowl language, then do no spew it. If you do no like gay stuff, then do not do any of it. The bible says that adultery is wrong, but it would be crazy to try and criminalize it in this country. It is a private matter. You may not agree with who someone falls in love with or why…but it is wrong to try and make it illegal because you disagree because of your religious beliefs…right. That would be tyrannical.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:39 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Continued from last comment:
    Be a shining example for Christ while being a great American too. Otherwise, are we any better than the Muslim extremist countries that enforce religious law on the masses????
    Think about it. I know that the gay issue is important to you. But they are your American neighbors. If you don’t think drinking to excess is right, then don’t drink. If you don’t like fowl language, then don’t spew it. If you don’t like gay stuff, then don’t do any of it. The bible says that adultery is wrong, but it would be crazy to try and criminalize it in this country. It is a private matter. You may not agree with who someone falls in love with or why…but it is wrong to try and make it illegal because you disagree because of your religious beliefs…right. That would be tyrannical.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:37 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Hey, folks...in case you didn't know it: this great country is not a theocracy. Also, all people in this great land have rights, like it or not. Thank heaven we can openly worship and speak freely about our faith, right? This country is founded on Christian principals (be kind, respect each other, don't kill each other) and not on what the bible says constitutes as sin. Thank Heaven, or we would have all been stoned to death by now.
    In America, passing any type of legislation that separates, classifies or strips any law abiding group or class of people (large or small) of equal rights is wrong and very un-American.
    Be a shining example for Christ while being a great American too. Otherwise, are we any better than the Muslim extremist countries that enforce religious law on the masses????
    Think about it. I know that the gay issue is important to you. But they are your American neighbors. If you don’t think drinking to excess is right, then don’t drink. If you don’t like fowl language, then don’t spew it. If you don’t like gay stuff, then don’t do any of it. The bible says that adultery is wrong, but it would be crazy to try and criminalize it in this country. It is a private matter. You may not agree with who someone falls in love with or why…but it is wrong to try and make it illegal because you disagree because of your religious beliefs…right. That would be tyrannical.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Hey, folks...in case you didn't know it… this great country is not a theocracy. Also, all people in this great land have rights, like it or not. Thank heaven we can openly worship and speak freely about our faith, right? This country is founded on Christian principals (be kind, respect each other, don't kill each other) and not on what the bible says constitutes as sin. Thank Heaven, or we would have all been stoned to death by now.
    In America, passing any type of legislation that separates, classifies or strips any law abiding group or class of people (large or small) of equal rights is wrong and very un-American.
    Be a shining example for Christ while being a great American too. Otherwise, are we any better than the Muslim extremist countries that enforce religious law on the masses????
    Think about it. I know that the gay issue is important to you. But they are your American neighbors. If you don’t think drinking to excess is right, then don’t drink. If you don’t like fowl language, then don’t spew it. If you don’t like gay stuff, then don’t do any of it. The bible says that adultery is wrong, but it would be crazy to try and criminalize it in this country. It is a private matter. You may not agree with who someone falls in love with or why…but it is wrong to try and make it illegal because you disagree because of your religious beliefs…right. That would be tyrannical.

  • Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Hey, folks...in case you didn't know it… this great country is not a theocracy. Also, all people in this great land have rights, like it or not. Thank heaven we can openly worship and speak freely about our faith, right? This country is founded on Christian principals (be kind, respect each other, don't kill each other) and not on what the bible says constitutes as sin. Thank Heaven, or we would have all been stoned to death by now.
    In America, passing any type of legislation that separates, classifies or strips any law abiding group or class of people (large or small) of equal rights is wrong and very un-American.
    Be a shining example for Christ while being a great American too. Otherwise, are we any better than the Muslim extremist countries that enforce religious law on the masses????
    Think about it. I know that the gay issue is important to you. But they are your American neighbors. If you don’t think drinking to excess is right, then don’t drink. If you don’t like fowl language, then don’t spew it. If you don’t like gay stuff, then don’t do any of it. The bible says that adultery is wrong, but it would be crazy to try and criminalize it in this country. It is a private matter. You may not agree with who someone falls in love with or why…but it is wrong to try and make it illegal because you disagree because of your religious beliefs…right. That would be tyrannical.

  • Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    under the new covenant for you to credit yourself with knowing why god called something abominable requires crediting yourself with knowing the mind of god. he called eating anything without scales or fins or to wear mixed fabric abominable also.

    and dont forget about the ordinances about keeping the sabbath holy.




    32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
    Tassels on Garments


    these are biblical legalities ....."the do not's" under the old covenant ................ the people were to be led by these. many of these prohibitions of the themselves were not sins

    under the new covenant we are led by the spirit.........................Romans 8: 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    is it your understanding that the fruit of the spirit of satan is the same as the fruit of the spirit of christ?

    what do the words of christ.."you will recognize them by their fruit." mean to you?

  • Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    let the Word of God be the final authority on all things including gay marriage. The Torah is very clear on same sex issues.
    God has not changed His mind nor will he ever. Gay sexual relationships according to the God of The Bible, are an abomination.
    Of course God offers complete deliverance for all who want it, but He will never excuse the sin until one turns from it.
    No matter what excuse anyone makes, it will always be sin, just like lying, cheating, stealing, adultery etc..
    let's get real folks and stop being afraid of people and what they think.
    There is deliverance for all who want it with Christ.

  • Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    <i have taken him at his word that is why i dont see anywhere in scripture where it says its was a sin.>

    No you did not. Otherwise, you would agree with God when He said homosexual sex is an abomination (Lev 18). You would agree with God where He called same gender sex sinful, sexual impurity, degrading, shameful, unnatural, indecent and perversion. He said sexual desire between people of the same gender is sinful (Rom 1). You can't get too much more specific there, unless He had named you personally. But feel free to disagree with God.

    Christians spoke out against slavery. What individuals do that is against what God said shows they are not submitted to God in that area, which shows they love themselves more in that area than they do God.

    <so you are saying that historically that anyone whose understanding was wrong ... did not put all the scriptures together in context on a subject, did not bel;ieve God, nor prayed, nor submitted to God and obeyed. >

    One or all of the above is true; although I think I would add two more possibilities: they loved themselves or the world more than they loved God (be it in one area or all areas), and they may have been mislead by others of whom one or more of the above was true of and never did their own study. As for repentance, that would be included in the love and submit and obey God.

  • Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:13 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "It is not my own. It is what God has said. Feel free to ignore God."

    of course it is your own you chose it. then said it was god's as well

    "DOES apply to all. But God has made it clear what proper sexual behavior is and is not. GOD said homosexual sex is sin."

    again you chose to claim an interpretation that says homosexuality is a sin and then claimed it as god's.

    "Simply take God at His word. believe Him and obey Him."

    i have taken him at his word that is why i dont see anywhere in scripture where it says its was a sin.
    however i claim my understanding as my own, and take full responsibility for it.\



    "No. I am saying in some places various denominations are in line with scripture and in others they are not. Indulgences is a man made idea - it adds to the Bible. "

    there is a very long ,lengthly explanation about indulgences along with annotation @ http://www.catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp



    As for slavery, churches spoke out against it from the beginning. Look up slavery and church fathers. Gregory of Nyssa and John Chrysostom were both vocal opponents of slavery (http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0006.html). Paul freed a slave and spoke out against slave traders (Philemon 1:15-16; 1 Timothy 1:9-11).

    slavery of whites or believers was outlawed in 300 ad my mention was of ETHNIC SLAVERY. check pope innocent the 8th, who who passed on ethnic slaves as gifts to his friends. and it was a jesuit priest who came up with original idea of bringing african slaves to the new world because indios made very poor slaves.wikipedia

    CONTINUED

  • Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:10 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    CONTINUED

    "Just because some people believed something right does not mean they were submitted to God and His word in that area."

    your claim is that anyone interprets scripture wrongly...................does not love god. they obeyed what they believed were god's commands. they were wrong.

    that has nothing to do whether they loved god.

    "By putting all the scripture together in context on a subject, believing God, praying, submitting to God and obeying. "



    so you are saying that historically that anyone whose understanding was wrong(for 1400,1600,and 1700 years), did not put all the scriptures together in context on a subject, did not bel;ieve God, nor prayed, nor submitted to God and obeyed.

    again this is not only pure judgement on your part, but you are crediting yourself with knowing their hearts.

    this definitely contradicts and negates scripture. i see no repentence..........does that mean youare guilty of repetitive sinning.

    Just because you say it does not make it true. The word of God is truth. The word of God tells us what HE thinks about thoughts and actions. HE had made HIS mind clear to us about sin. HE said it is sin to have homosexual sex. You are free to ignore God. But realize that if we choose to continue sinning after having received the truth, we will be judged for it.

    all written word requires interpretation. for one to stand on an interpretation, they have to chose it. its a law of physical reality. if you want to add that this is god's interpretation..........fine, but by doing so you are crediting yourself with knowing the mind of god. this is in contradiction with isaiah 1

    "i have answered you. I said, Where they line up with Scripture, they are correct. Where they add to or take away from Scripture, they are incorrect.
    To make it clear, some doctrines of the various denominations are correct, and others are incorrect."

    so those who do not line up with scripture do not love god.

    "Then your understanding is incorrect. Otherwise, Paul would not have written scripture, but we know that what Paul was IS scripture (2 Pet 3:15-16)".

    yes paul wrote the scripture thru the inspiration of the spirit. at no time did he credit himself with knowing the mind of god. paul knew scripture. to say such a thing, would have been contradiction of isaiah1.

    the fact that someone authored a verse does not mean he had the understanding of god about it.

    what is it about paul's writing in 1cor 13 that you have difficulty in understanding....12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

  • Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:09 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    CONTINUED

    "Jesus and Paul both spoke out against sexual behavior God said was wrong. This requires no interpretation, God was quite clear. God spoke of it in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. The Old Testament is scripture, and Paul was clear that all scripture comes from God.
    1 Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

    paul was very non specific about sexual immorality,impurity, and debauchery. therefore the need for the leading of the holy spirit and interpretation.

    the inspiration comes from heaven. you pick and chose laws of lev. to stand on and not all prohibitions were of themselves sins so to make something a prohibition did not automatically make the essence of it a sin. numbers 15:32

  • Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:38 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    <in my mind ignoring those scriptures particularly when 1tim says all scriptures are god breathed would appear to be a contradiction.>

    While we may not agree on certain more esoteric scriptures, all Christians who trust God and believe Him agree that God spoke out against homosexual sex. To ignore the scripture that says so is to ignore the very verse you are trying to use.

    <you have never explained how anyoone can credit themselves with crediting their choice of an interpretation of being anything other, than their own.>

    It is not my own. It is what God has said. Feel free to ignore God.


    <all love god, even catholics, episcopalians, pentacostals.....................etc. and all read and study and apply scripture to their worship.

    how is it that 1cor13, isaiah1, 1tim, and ikings applies to them, but not to you?>

    It DOES apply to all. But God has made it clear what proper sexual behavior is and is not. GOD said homosexual sex is sin.

    <if one loves god what dictates what interpretation one will have about a particular scripture, and who is to say that what ever interpretation they chose is god's interpretation?>

    Simply take God at His word. believe Him and obey Him.

    <are you saying that in the historical church there were no believers who loved god, because they supported the practice of indulgences for 1500 years, never spoke out against ethnic slavery for 1700 years, and supported the burning of witches and heritics at the stake for 1600 years. all believing in their minds that all these practices were supported by the scriptures.>

    No. I am saying in some places various denominations are in line with scripture and in others they are not. Indulgences is a man made idea - it adds to the Bible.

    As for burning, those who were guilty of burning people did not practice what the New Testament teaches on discipline and forgiveness and love.

    As for slavery, churches spoke out against it from the beginning. Look up slavery and church fathers. Gregory of Nyssa and John Chrysostom were both vocal opponents of slavery (http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0006.html). Paul freed a slave and spoke out against slave traders (Philemon 1:15-16; 1 Timothy 1:9-11).

    Just because some people believed something right does not mean they were submitted to God and His word in that area.

    Scripture is clear that homosexual sex is a sin. Feel free to ignore the warnings found in the word of God about it. But if you do, there will be consequences when you face Judgement.

    <how can they say they know the intentions of god about what was the correct interpretation of a particular SCRIPTURE?>

    By putting all the scripture together in context on a subject, believing God, praying, submitting to God and obeying.

  • Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    <as i said before standing on the position that homosexuality is a sin requires that one credits oneself with knowing the mind of god and in addition(having conversed with you, wbmoore) it requires one to credit oneself with having the power of god...................... to know what is in another person's heart..................even to the point of .knowing, when they dont even know the other person.>

    Just because you say it does not make it true. The word of God is truth. The word of God tells us what HE thinks about thoughts and actions. HE had made HIS mind clear to us about sin. HE said it is sin to have homosexual sex. You are free to ignore God. But realize that if we choose to continue sinning after having received the truth, we will be judged for it.

    Heb 10:26-28
    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    <im still waiting.......................do you think the catholics, pentacostals...........etc think they have an understanding of scripture that is not of god. >

    I have answered you. I said, Where they line up with Scripture, they are correct. Where they add to or take away from Scripture, they are incorrect.
    To make it clear, some doctrines of the various denominations are correct, and others are incorrect.

    <you credit yourself with fully knowing what is the true interpretation or interpretation involving certain subjects........................because?>

    I credit myself with nothing. I simply know that God's word has made it clear. He has defined certain behaviors as sin.

    <it is my understanding that only those that know the mind of god, can know what would be the the interpretation of god. certainly not those whose thoughts and ways are as far from those of god as heaven is from the earth.(isaiah1) nor those who see in part, thru a reflection darkly( 1cor13)>

    Then your understanding is incorrect. Otherwise, Paul would not have written scripture, but we know that what Paul was IS scripture (2 Pet 3:15-16).

    <how can they say they know the intentions of god about what was the correct interpretation of a particular spirit?>

    Jesus and Paul both spoke out against sexual behavior God said was wrong. This requires no interpretation, God was quite clear. God spoke of it in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. The Old Testament is scripture, and Paul was clear that all scripture comes from God.
    1 Ti 3:16 - All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

    He did not say to ignore the Old Testament. In fact Paul used it to speak against a man being with his mother-in-law, which is spoken against in the same place homosexual sex is spoken against.

  • Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    reedit

    how can they say they know the intentions of god about what was the correct interpretation of a particular SCRIPTURE?

  • Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    surely there is a significant difference between, acknowledging that all scripture is god's word because as is spoken in itim, all scripture is god breathed...................., and designating a particular interpretation of a particular scripture is god's interpretation and therefore is god's word.

    the former is supported by scripture(1tim) the later comes against scripture (isaiah1 and 1cor13)

    again...........if one loves god he will obey his commands. commands according to whose interpretation?

    historically there were those who thought you didnt love god if they didn't engage in the practice of indulences, didnt burn heretics and witches at the stake, and didnt practice ethnic slavery.

  • Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:11 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    it is my understanding that only those that know the mind of god, can know what would be the the interpretation of god. certainly not those whose thoughts and ways are as far from those of god as heaven is from the earth.(isaiah1) nor those who see in part, thru a reflection darkly( 1cor13)

    how can they say they know the intentions of god about what was the correct interpretation of a particular spirit?

    in my mind ignoring those scriptures particularly when 1tim says all scriptures are god breathed would appear to be a contradiction.

    you have never explained how anyoone can credit themselves with crediting their choice of an interpretation of being anything other, than their own.

    all love god, even catholics, episcopalians, pentacostals.....................etc. and all read and study and apply scripture to their worship.

    how is it that 1cor13, isaiah1, 1tim, and ikings applies to them, but not to you?

    if one loves god what dictates what interpretation one will have about a particular scripture, and who is to say that what ever interpretation they chose is god's interpretation?

    are you saying that in the historical church there were no believers who loved god, because they supported the practice of indulgences for 1500 years, never spoke out against ethnic slavery for 1700 years, and supported the burning of witches and heritics at the stake for 1600 years. all believing in their minds that all these practices were supported by the scriptures.

  • Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    <<as i said before standing on the position that homosexuality is a sin requires that one credits oneself with knowing the mind of god and in addition(having conversed with you, wbmoore) it requires one to credit oneself with having the power of god...................... to know what is in another person's heart..................even to the point of .knowing, when they dont even know the other person.>>

    No, it simply requires one read the word of God, believe God, and obey.

    <<do you think the catholics, pentacostals...........etc think they have an understanding of scripture that is not of god. >>

    Where they line up with Scripture, they are correct. Where they add to or take away from Scripture, they are incorrect.

    <<you credit yourself with fully knowing what is the true interpretation or interpretation involving certain subjects........................because?>>

    I credit myself with nothing. I simply believe God.

  • Sun Nov 09, 2008 9:50 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "The word is clear for those who love God. It is confusing for those who do not."

    "If one chooses to ignore scripture, then you are ignoring God, not loving Him. When you obey God, you are giving examples of loving God."




    1kings 8:39then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men),

    as i said before standing on the position that homosexuality is a sin requires that one credits oneself with knowing the mind of god and in addition(having conversed with you, wbmoore) it requires one to credit oneself with having the power of god...................... to know what is in another person's heart..................even to the point of .knowing, when they dont even know the other person.





    <<the scripture says if we love him we will obey him. obey him according to whose interpretation of the law?>>

    im still waiting.......................do you think the catholics, pentacostals...........etc think they have an understanding of scripture that is not of god.

    you credit yourself with fully knowing what is the true interpretation or interpretation involving certain subjects........................because?

    1 cor13 :. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

  • Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet,

    <<where in the new testament does it say we are to follow his commands according to the leading of the law, ..............according to the leading of our interpretation of it? according to whose interpretation................the catholics, episcopalians, quakers, the pentecostals, which division of baptists, etc.................>>

    It is God who guides us.
    John 16:12-15
    12 I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

    But Christ was also clear that if we choose to not obey God, we are not God's. It is not the obedience that saves us or that makes us God's, but it a working out of the faith we have; it is exemplifying our faith and love. But if we do not obey, then we do not love God.

  • Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet,

    << <<explain this. how do you get meaning of scripture, the written word, if not through your own intepretation. >>

    "The word is clear for those who love God. It is confusing for those who do not."

    you didnt explain>>

    I did explain, but you did not understand it.

    <<............you are reading scripture an understanding comes to mind, you embrace an interpretation. how does your interpretation show you love god and another person having a different interpretation shows he does not love god.>>

    It breaks down to whether one is following the teachings of God. God does not contradict Himself. What is taught in one area must be understood with what has been written in other areas concerning the subject. If one chooses to ignore scripture, then you are ignoring God, not loving Him. When you obey God, you are giving examples of loving God.

    <<the scripture says if we love him we will obey him. obey him according to whose interpretation of the law?>>

    According to God's. We must surrender our will to God. God's word is clear in most places (other than those areas He has chosen to be purposefully obscure). It simply takes reading it in context and obeying God. As we live in faith through obedience, we will gain experience with that ability and get better at it.

    << interpretation does not instill oneness................only the holy spirit does that.>>

    Yes, but if you do not have the Holy Spirit, you will not understand what God wrote.

    <<romans says that the sons of god are led by the spirit of god. so the assuption would be that we are to follow his commands according to the leading of the spirit, and the fruits of the spirit.>>

    If we love God, if we have the Holy Spirit, if we have those fruits, we will obey God.

    <<isnt that why paul designated them in galations?>>

    If one has the fruit of the spirit, one should not be doing the acts of the sinful nature.

  • Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, you have GOT to put something to indicate what is a quote and what is your thoughts. It is REALLY hard to follow what you are trying to say.

    <<because you love someone the essence of who they are you are obedient to them.

    the reverse is not true just because you obey a being does not mean you do it out of love for them. . there are milliion reasons to obey certain understandings of the law........pride, acceptance, to find favor, to bargain, commuinty acceptance etc, and none of them have anything to do with love of god.>>

    If we love God, we will obey God. But obedience does not necessarily mean we love. But if we love, we will obey.

    <<again i offer both paragraphs ........but your understanding is the reverse "my love is my obedience to my understandings." isnt your love for your neighbor trumped by your understanding and your obedience to it.>>

    No. you do not understand my understanding. Love is a quality that God gives us. If we love God, we will obey God. You are saying something different altogether.

    <<isnt this what has enabled the slaughter historically, of one group of believers over another, and is the motivating force of the terrorists of today.>>

    No. The lack of love for God, hate and anger and jealously and envy seem to be the motivating factors for the things you mentioned.

    <<the summation of the law is the law. they are not different from each other. the summation of the law is an explanation of the essence of all other parts of the law. the summation is the other parts of the law.>>

    If you believe this, then why do choose to ignore what God has said and sin against him through homosexual sex?

    <<this was spoken in romans. it is paul's explanation of the essence of the law in the new covenant. that is why it is mentioned 9 times in the new testament and only once in the old.>>

    The Old Testament focused on concrete-literal examples, while the New Testament teaches the same things in a more esoteric fashion.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    because you love someone the essence of who they are you are obedient to them.

    the reverse is not true just because you obey a being does not mean you do it out of love for them. . there are milliion reasons to obey certain understandings of the law........pride, acceptance, to find favor, to bargain, commuinty acceptance etc, and none of them have anything to do with love of god.


    again i offer both paragraphs ........but your understanding is the reverse "my love is my obedience to my understandings." isnt your love for your neighbor trumped by your understanding and your obedience to it.

    isnt this what has enabled the slaughter historically, of one group of believers over another, and is the motivating force of the terrorists of today.



    "No understanding of the summation of the Law, or the Law itself................................."

    the summation of the law is the law. they are not different from each other. the summation of the law is an explanation of the essence of all other parts of the law. the summation is the other parts of the law.

    this was spoken in romans. it is paul's explanation of the essence of the law in the new covenant. that is why it is mentioned 9 times in the new testament and only once in the old.

    <<explain this. how do you get meaning of scripture, the written word, if not through your own intepretation. >>

    "The word is clear for those who love God. It is confusing for those who do not."

    you didnt explain............you are reading scripture an understanding comes to mind, you embrace an interpretation. how does your interpretation show you love god and another person having a different interpretation shows he does not love god.

    the scripture says if we love him we will obey him. obey him according to whose interpretation of the law? interpretation does not instill oneness................only the holy spirit does that.

    romans says that the sons of god are led by the spirit of god. so the assuption would be that we are to follow his commands according to the leading of the spirit, and the fruits of the spirit.

    isnt that why paul designated them in galations?

    where in the new testament does it say we are to follow his commands according to the leading of the law, ..............according to the leading of our interpretation of it? according to whose interpretation................the catholics, episcopalians, quakers, the pentecostals, which division of baptists, etc.................

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    <<"No. Scripture does not tell us to love ourselves. It is a given that we will love ourselves"

    If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.>>

    At least we agree on something.

    <<The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself.">>

    Note that "love your neighbor as yourself" comes from Leviticus 19. But it is part of the summation of the law. It does not negate the law. The law is filled with concrete examples how to love God and love our neighbor.

    << it would seem that this is an entreaty to love ourselves.>>

    Its not an entreaty. It is a recognition of what is. WE love ourselves and we are to love others in the same way.

    << and if the commandment is the summation of the law, then any interpretation and understanding of the law cannot come against this and still be of god.>>

    No understanding of the summation of the Law, or the Law itself, can be against God or His command to be like Him. We are to follow the example of Christ. Christ obeyed God the Father. We are to do likewise.

    <<no understanding can come against the love that is god that you have for your neighbor.>>

    God defined love for God as obedience to Him.

    <<but your understanding is the reverse "my love is my obedience to my understanding." isnt your love for your neighbor is trumped by your understanding and your obedience to it.>>

    You're so confused. God said love is obedience to Him. He has made His will clear in the Bible.

    "it is easy because GOD told us in His word."

    <<explain this. how do you get meaning of scripture, the written word, if not through your own intepretation. >>

    The word is clear for those who love God. It is confusing for those who do not.

    Jn 8:47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God

    2 Corinthians 1:13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand.

    1 Corinthians 2:14
    14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4
    3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:31 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "No. Scripture does not tell us to love ourselves. It is a given that we will love ourselves"

    If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.

    The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


    it would seem that this is an entreaty to love ourselves. and if the commandment is the summation of the law, then any interpretation and understanding of the law cannot come against this and still be of god.

    no understanding can come against the love that is god that you have for your neighbor.

    but your understanding is the reverse "my love is my obedience to my understanding." isnt your love for your neighbor is trumped by your understanding and your obedience to it.

    isnt this what has enabled the slaughter historically, of one group of believers over another, and is the motivating force of the terrorists of today.


    "it is easy because GOD told us in His word."

    explain this. how do you get meaning of scripture, the written word, if not through your own intepretation.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 10:02 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    The life of a Christian is one which loves God. We have the forgivness of God and His grace. We are to share His love with others. But we will not habitually rebel against God. We will grow to become more and more Christlike. We will obey God.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    <<this when scripture says no to lean on your understanding.>>

    Let's look at the passage that comes from:
    Proverbs 3:1-7
    1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but keep my commands in your heart, 2 for they will prolong your life many years and bring you prosperity. 3 Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 Then you will win favor and a good name in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil.

    Notice the author is teaching what God taught. He is saying to keep the commandments he taught - those of God.
    Notice you are to love God and be faithful to Him. You are to trust God - not what you or the world think is right, but what GOD said is right. By acknowledging God (through living what God has taught), your path will be righteous. Fear GOD and shun evil (as defined by GOD, not man).

    <<are you saying that the love you have received from god, the love you know to be of god and to be god is the same>>

    First, God is love (and so much more). This does not mean love is God. Second, the love I have received from God was exemplified in the obedience of Christ to the Father. Third, the love I have for God is exemplified through obedience to the Father, in the same model Christ gave us.

    << and is exemplified bv your interpretation of the law?
    when i say god i mean the triune god. >>

    Love for God is not exemplified through interpretation. Love is exemplified through obedience to God.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    <<do you mean that god, first loving us. we are in return, to love the triune god with that same love,>>

    I am not sure it is the same love. But it is the love for God by people that is exemplified by people as God has defined in His word - obedience. Just as Jesus exemplified love for God the Father through obedience to Him.

    << and also with that same love, love ourselves >>

    No. Scripture does not tell us to love ourselves. It is a given that we will love ourselves.

    <<and also love our neighbor, in other words, we are to love our neighbor in the same way we love ourselves. our beighbor being............. everyone else.>>

    We are to love our neigher as ourselves. Another understanding of this would be do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    <<however my understanding is instead of loving self and others first you place loving your interpretation of the law first. >>

    No. Your understanding is flawed. I love God as God said to love Him - I obey Him. I love others as God said to love others, as myself. I treat others as I would have them treat me.

    <<which means you would have to credit yourselves with knowing and having the mind of god.>>

    I don't credit myself with anything. I simply recognize and accept what GOD has written about what HE LIKES and what GOD said for people to do and not do.

    But in terms of knowing what God wants in certain areas, it is easy because GOD told us in His word.

    << which means you credit your interpretation as being the essence of god.>>

    nope. wrong again.

    >> which means you credit your interpretation as being the love of god and the spirit of god.>>

    nope, wrong again.

    << that means your human interpretation, god, his essence are all the same.>>

    nope. wrong again.

    <<we know all this comes against scripture. and makes your words about love moot, because your understanding trumps everything.>>

    nope. wrong again.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet , didn't Jesus who healed a crippled man encountered him the market and told him hey stop sinning or something worse will befall you. I am sure Jesus loved this man , HE loves us all for that matter, but sin hurts us and seers our conscience towards a loving GOD which drives us far from HIM (through shame , fear etc) now homosexuality is and always has been a sin of sexual immorality. It also destroys the institution GOD created which is a marriage between a man and a woman , and is a type of abortion because it prevents procreation which we are to be fruitful and multiply. Now we are to be examples of Christ's love correct? Didn't HE lovingly rebuke this man by HIMSELF being light speaking into the darkness this man was either thinking of going into or already doing? If we being of HIM are light , then we are to shine in the darkness.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    1cor13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

  • Sat Nov 08, 2008 4:41 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    do you mean that god, first loving us. we are in return, to love the triune god with that same love, and also with that same love, love ourselves and also love our neighbor, in other words, we are to love our neighbor in the same way we love ourselves. our beighbor being............. everyone else.

    however my understanding is instead of loving self and others first you place loving your interpretation of the law first. which means you would have to credit yourselves with knowing and having the mind of god. which means you credit your interpretation as being the essence of god. which means you credit your interpretation as being the love of god and the spirit of god. that means your human interpretation, god, his essence are all the same.

    we know all this comes against scripture. and makes your words about love moot, because your understanding trumps everything.

    this when scripture says no to lean on your understanding.

    are you saying that the love you have received from god, the love you know to be of god and to be god is the same and is exemplified bv your interpretation of the law?

    when i say god i mean the triune god.

  • Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, you forgot Christ's challenge to the woman caught in adultery, "Go your way and sin no more."

  • Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I'm much more fond of the mercy and grace God has shown us by sending His Son to suffer and die for our sins. The flip side of not sinning is loving God through obedience. All He asks of us is that we love Him with all out heart, mind, and strength. We must trust in Christ and show that love by obedience.We are to live holy lives to the best of our ability. We're not perfect, we're going to sin. God has forgiven our sins if we love Him. But God is clear over and over against on how we are to live and not live. We are to leave sin behind and walk in the ways God has said - knowing that it is not that obedience that brings us to heaven, but the fact that Jesus died for us and we trust in that. If we have God living in us, we will love God and our neighbors as He said we should. But if we do not obey God, we are not loving God. If we continually choose sin over obedience to God, then we must question whether we love God at all.

  • Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:28 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "do not sin" which you appear to be enamored with and believe is the essence and the leading of the new covenant appears only three times in scripture.

    1 Samuel 14:34
    Then he said, "Go out among the men and tell them, 'Each of you bring me your cattle and sheep, and slaughter them here and eat them. Do not sin against the LORD by eating meat with blood still in it.' " So everyone brought his ox that night and slaughtered it there.
    1Psalm 4:4
    In your anger do not sin; when you are on your beds, search your hearts and be silent. Selah

    Ephesians 4:26
    "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

  • Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    um... that's simply a listing of verses with word sin in it, its not an actual word study. While I do not think this example has all the details of a true word study, it does come close:
    http://www.miikogibson.com/bible_study/On%20Learning%20How%20to%20Do%20a%20Word%20Study%20and%20Teaching%20It.pdf

  • Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:17 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    a word study on the word sin in 6

    Romans 6:1
    [ Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ ] What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

    Romans 6:2
    By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

    Romans 6:6
    For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

    Romans 6:7
    because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.


    Romans 6:10
    The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    Romans 6:11
    In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

    Romans 6:12
    Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.

    Romans 6:13
    Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

    Romans 6:14
    For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.


    Romans 6:15
    [ Slaves to Righteousness ] What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

    Romans 6:16
    Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

    Romans 6:17
    But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.

    Romans 6:18
    You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
    R
    Romans 6:20
    When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.

    Romans 6:22
    But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet,

    I'm not going to try to bother to decipher what you wrote. While there is more in Romans 6 than what I will discuss here, I will summarize the various sections of Romans 6, with a focus on how to live.

    Romans 6:1-4 If you are a Christian, don't sin.
    Romans 6:5-7 If you died with Christ, you will be resurrected with Him; don't sin.
    Romans 6:8-10 Christ died to sin and lives to God.
    Romans 6:11-14 Live to God, don't sin.
    Romans 6:15-18 Do not sin, live righteously.
    Romans 6:19-23 Do not sin, be holy.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, I did not understand what you wrote. This is why I did not respond to it.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    you gave me 6 piece meal, saying it didnt take away from the meaning of what paul was saying.

    i disagreed and in doing so began a discussion of the entire chapter. so far you are you appear to be in agreement to what i have said so far.

    YES I AM A JEW was threatened by what i wrote and responded by claiming complete in ability to comprehend anything that i wrote. that would be expected of a non believer, esp one who was jewish. are you claiming the same thing?

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    feet, what are you talking about?

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    because there is no question on the first paragraph in romans 6 are you ready to go to the second?

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:47 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    wb, thanks and it amazes me how awesome a God we serve who can do that in the life of any believer who is willing to allow Him.

  • Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:40 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    believer, thanks for being a role model. I'm am sorry that what happened to you occured, yet it seems to have been used by God to help you grow in ways that many never do. God bless.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    yes, and I hoped I had conveyed that in my post that I do not nor did I ever hold all homosexuals responsible for the act of one person or think that all homosexuals are like that. I know all to well that jerks come in all shapes, sizes, and sexual orientations.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:40 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    yes and hlerwin, thank you both for your gracious words and hlerwin you are correct after becoming a Christian and taking my past to God I can honestly say I felt real release and freedom from that and other parts of my past. And I have even forgiven the person who did it. But in many ways it has made me more sensitive to the struggle people go through in that area of their life with regards to acceptance and approval and I personally believe when a person genuinely comes to Christ one of the major things we receive from Christ is acceptance and approval as a person and it frees us to be the person God has intended us to be all along and realize He has an awesome purpose for our life. And initially as a Christian I struggled with that because of this and others negative episodes in my life. And I know many may disagree with this but I have come to believe that their are many people caught up in sinful lifestyles because they have been led to believe that is the only way they will ever gain approval and acceptance or they have convinced themselves they are not worthy of either. As a Pastor and especially working with kids I believe God would have me focus on showing them that they are worthy of both and in Christ they will indeed receive both.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    yes, welcome to the world of feet!!!:)

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:23 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    feet, I think he's saying the entire post made no sense. It would help if you put quotes (") or parentheses (()) or greater than and less than signs (<>) around what you are quoting, and then a blank line to separate the quote from what you are trying to say.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    if you could be more specific, i think i could respond to your question.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Feet, is that even English? I'd love to comment but I haven't the foggiest idea what you're trying to say.

  • Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:16 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Romans 6
    Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
    1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    should we sin, by no means because we died to sin, how can we live in it any longer. having confessed with our mouths and believed in our hearts in christ.................................thru his grace we died to the law. all this....................... after god had put his laws in our minds and in our hearts.....................does paul say to dismiss the law............ no............................how are we resurrected into a new life if we are still following the law according to the old covenant......."obey my laws and regulations"....... or else.

    if in our new life where we are told to test everything, and to keep the good........such as.......test ing our understanding of the law. how can this be done in an "obey or else" environment.

    if in our new life is from uniting with christ.................dying with him and his living in us. why would we persist in living in" obey or else?"

    particularly when we know UNDER THE NEW COVENANT that even in obeying if it is done WITHOUT LOVE, IT.IS NOTHING AND GAINS NOTHING.

    instead we live according to the commandments of love, the law reminding us what it means to love, but the conviction of our heart of sin comes not from our understanding of the law but by the spirit of the one who lives in us as to what is love.

Please help us to monitor our message boards by flagging comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable.
Contact Us if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.
Comment on this story
ID Password

Don't have a Christian Post ID? Signing up is easy. Click Here

  • icon1
  • icon2
  • icon3
  • icon4
  • icon5
The Christian Post reserves the right to terminate the account of any User who violates our Terms of Use.
Also on CP
Advertisement
Church Fundraisers
Advertisement
CP Shopping
  • Jewelry
  • Health
  • Church
  • Gifts
  • Coins

Bracelets | Chains | Crosses | Earrings | Gemstone |

Featured contents & Giveaways
Joolwe :
Cross-pendant necklace
Bethany House Publishers

It was a balmy California evening. I had gone for a jog before I was to speak at a leadership conference. I still can't recall how I got there, but I found myself sitting on a curb

Featured Advertiser Links