Conservative ministry Focus on the Family has removed from its website an article about the latest book by former CNN host Glenn Beck in response to complaints over his Mormon ties.
“Mr. Beck is a member of the Mormon church, and … we did not make mention of this fact in our interview with him,” reads a statement prepared for the ministry’s receptionists, according to Joel Campbell, the Mormon media observer for the MormonTimes.
“We do recognize the deep theological difference between evangelical theology and Mormon theology, and it would have been prudent for us at least to have pointed out these differences,” receptionists are instructed to say to those who call in about the missing article on the ministry’s CitizenLink website. “Because of the confusion, we have removed the interview from CitizenLink."
Since last week, Beck’s interview had been featured on CitizenLink and claimed that Beck “is hoping to spread a more eternal sort of gospel through his new book, The Christmas Sweater.”
“I just want the people to understand that the message is true,” Beck said in the interview, which CitizenLink noted as being the product of a freelance reporter in Colorado Springs and not the ministry.
“Sometimes redemption has been made into a word that people don’t understand. They need to know it’s true, it’s real. It’s not a word, it’s a life-changing force,” the author continued. “It’s transformed my life, who I was to the very core of my being. If it wasn’t for me accepting the gift that the Lord gave to me, I’d be dead today.”
Since the interview was published, Christians throughout the blogosphere have raised flags and sounded alarms, concerned that Focus on the Family was compromising central doctrinal truths to win the culture war.
“They use Mr. Beck's story as a way to show that hope can be found in God, which is true enough; the problem is that Mr. Beck's god is not the Triune God of the Bible nor is his Jesus the Jesus of the Bible,” commented Dustin S. Seger, pastor of Shepherd’s Fellowship of Greensboro, N.C.
“I strongly discourage you from giving money to any religious organization that is so committed to a social agenda that they are willing to ignore the vast difference between biblical Christianity and the cult of Mormonism,” he wrote to readers of the co-authored blog “Grace in the Triad” earlier this week.
Though Beck’s social views are regarded as mostly compatible with many Christian views, his beliefs in Mormonism have been distinguished as not.
Aside from rejecting the Trinity and their belief in many gods, Mormons believe their prophet, Joseph Smith, was “the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam,” according to the Mormons’ History of the Church.
“Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are," claimed Brigham Young, a 19th century president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
“Clearly, Mormonism is a cult,” the ministry Underground Apologetics expressed in a statement opposing Focus on the Family’s promotion of Beck.
“Through the years, Focus on the Family has done great things to help the family and has brought attention to the many social ills that are attacking the family,” the ministry stated.
“However, to promote a Mormon as a Christian is not helpful to the cause of Jesus Christ,” it added. “For Christians to influence society, Christians should be promoting the central issues of the faith properly without opening the door to false religions.”
Since the debut of Beck’s The Christmas Sweater six weeks ago, the 284-page hardcover has not only hit the New York Times Best-Sellers List but has also climbed up to No. 1 multiple times.
In addition, a “living play” of the book also debuted in 420 movie theaters nationwide last week featuring theatrical animation, specially-created projections and a Christmas musical score from a 10-piece orchestra and Broadway gospel singer.
Based on a personal true story, The Christmas Sweater is a narrative of a boy named Eddie who embarks on a dark and painful journey on the road to manhood.
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I am mystified that so many who deign to call themselves Christian would violate one of the 10 commandments, and "bear false witness against <their> neighbor." I have no problem with those who choose to disagree on points of doctrine, otherwise we'd all be either Catholic, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Pentacostal or whatever. I was raised a Southern Baptist, and I don't remember being taught about the "Trinity" like perhaps an Anglican or Catholic, but about "The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost." Neither could I understand other denominations who said they were all the same when Christ prayed to the Father that we might be ONE with them as he was with the Father. Christ's baptism shows three separate and distinct parts of the Godhead, "Christ being baptised, Father speaking from heaven, and the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove." ONE God here is obviously ONE IN PURPOSE.
It is offensive to call 14 million Mormons a "Cult" simply due to a disagreement over doctrine, when protestants and Catholics can not agree on doctrine. It is offensive to say Mormons don't worship the same God, nor the same Jesus Christ because one disagrees with their doctrine, or because one interprets the same biblical passage differently. However, to distort what Mormons claim as their doctrine, faith and belief in order further one's own argument, places a person in league with the father of all lies, Lucifer.
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CMoC,
Happy New Year; yes, it is true that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world and according to scripture; his sacrifice is the only atoning sacrifice for sin. However, Jesus is God; to say otherwise is to ignore the testimony of scripture . . . are you a Jehovahs Witness?
I don't know how anyone can study the scriptures and NOT see that Jesus is God and the Son of God.
Jesus Himself made that claim.
The book of John calls Jesus God.
CmoC,
You wrote: "What continues to boggle me is how anyone can study the scriptures, pray for truth and come to the conclusion that God=Christ who continues to take different forms at different times...and for what purpose?"
Sorry for getting to the discussion late, but I pray you'll hear me out. God has chosen to disclose Himself in His Word as one God revealed in three Persons. Admittedly, one is limited by the English language here: to say three PERSONS sounds like three separate people; to say three PERSONALITIES sounds like someone with multiple personality disorder.
Still, God chose to reveal Himself this way in Scripture, most clearly at the baptism of Jesus: Jesus stands there dripping wet, while the Father speaks from heaven and the Spirit lands on Jesus like a dove. All three are fully God, at the same time. Keeping this in mind avoids the heresy of modalism: that the God of the Old Testament became Jesus of the NT, who became the Holy Spirit of the church age. This heresy was rightly condemned by the early church.
I agree with you that a person can be saved without a full understanding of the Trinity; thank God, otherwise none of us would be saved. However, we are supposed to grow in our maturity and understanding of God and His Word. We cannot do that if we ignore such an important doctrine.
I close with Augustine's famous words: "try to understand the Trinity and you will lose your mind. Fail to believe it and you will lose your soul."
Peace and a good year to you, brother.
Online4him
Lots, most importantly that he is my Savior and that the Atonement is our source of hope. He lives.
What continues to boggle me is how anyone can study the scriptures, pray for truth and come to the conclusion that God=Christ who continues to take different forms at different times...and for what purpose? None of that enhances the central truths I refer to above. The more comments I read on this string, the more it appears well-meaning, yet missing-the-mark people created this Trinitarian line of thought for some purpose other than teaching Christ's pure truths. Despite the number of people who tell me this makes sense and squares with the scriptures, at the end of the day it never adds up. What I've come to is that Christians do not have to buy into the Trinity to be Christians, The central (read that critical) aspects of Christianity are detached from the Trinity theory.
Online4Him,
I was wondering the same thing...
cmoc, to the best of my knowledge Christ has never been without a body.
CMoC,
Hello; you have been a Christian since 1976 and yet you do not know the nature of Christ? What is it exactly do you believe about him?
Prophet- Since 1976.
Believer- When does he wear the body and when not?
cmoc, God in the form of Jesus Christ does indeed have a body!:)
cmoc,
How long have you been a Christian?
Prophet,
Francis Schaeffer also wrote an excellent booklet on baptism, which I believe is still available. His view may differ slightly from the baptistic views presented here by others on this forum, though. It is worthwhile to check it out.
Back to the body/spirit question: So God is spirit AND has a body? Are you making this up?
Believer and Online,
Thank you both for your input and sources. It helps me out a lot.
Prophet,
Baptism; The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia By Geoffrey W. Bromiley.
prophet, The Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary was my main source, under the word baptism.
Believer,
Thanks for the follow up . . . just got back in.
Prophet,
I agree; the Israelites went on dry land, however, Paul speaks of their baptism in a symbolic manner.
Believer,
Thanks for that info. Can you please tell me where you got that information. I'd like to study up on it.
prophet, a mikvaot, cleansing pool, was used to bring a Gentile who had embraced Judaism and accepted circumcision into the Jewish faith and in the case of John, he was calling Jews to repentance for having become like the Gentiles in their worldliness, so their baptism was to allow them to let God and others know that they were repenting of their worldly ways and be the Jew that God desired them to be. Once again it was a symbolic way to show God and others that they meant business in this matter.
Yes, but the situation with the Israelites, they went through the sea on dry land. God parted the waters. And as for ceremonial cleansing, that wasn't necessarily for salvation, as John preached. In the Laws of Moses, lepers had to go through a cleansing process (for obvious reasons). But could you be a little more explanatory. Scriptures and such from the OT that describes this cleansing/baptism.
Paul similarly speaks about the baptism of the Israelites as they passed through the sea: through this typical baptism, they were brought under the obligation of acting according to the Mosaic precepts, as Christians receiving Christian baptism today are said to be baptized Into Christ, and are thereby brought under obligation to keep the precepts of the Gospel.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Romans 6:3, 4).
The symbolism is perfect and filled with deep meaning. In baptism the eyes are closed, hands are folded, and breath is suspended as in death; then comes burial in the water and resurrection from the watery grave to a new life in Christ. When raised from the water, the eyes open and the candidate begins breathing again and mingles with friends: a complete likeness of resurrection.
However, baptism itself does not change the heart of man; it is a symbol of the change that has already taken place. A man might be baptized without faith, without repentance, and without a new heart. He might even be immersed after the example of Jesus, but he would simply come up a wet sinner; without faith, without repentance, without a new heart. Baptism cannot make a new person. Neither can it change or regenerate anyone. It is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit that changes the heart in conversion. One must be born of the Spirit as well as born of water.
Hope this helps,
Online4Him
Prophet, (But that means that baptism was in place before Christ's sacrifice. Any ideas on this matter?)
There are many similarities between the Old Testament accounts of ritual washings/baptisms with baptism in the New Testament; for instance, we read:
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (1Corinthians 10:1, 2).
Ceremonial washings were a critical part of the Old Testament law; this can be seen in the ritual washings (see Leviticus 14-17); also, the writer of Hebrews speaks about the Day of Atonement and these washings which the people did:
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:6-10).
The Jews believed that immersion in water was necessary and that the water much touch every part of the body to become ritually clean; this would explain why Jerusalem had so many pools available to the people: such as the pool of Bethesda (John 5:2).
I've often wondered where salvation by baptism came from. John the Baptist said " I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance...". The Old Covenant had no place for such things. Their "salvation", or atonement, was based on animal sacrifices. But apparently, at some point in the preceding 400 years, baptism became the way. But it's apparent that it wasn't the majority who held to that. The pharisees, and those who followed them, still adhered to the Old Covenant.
But the thing is about baptism, is that John was preaching it, even before Jesus' death and resurrection. And even Jesus was baptized, so He must have approved of it. But that means that baptism was in place before Christ's sacrifice.
Any ideas on this matter?
believer,
Amen; I agree, baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures clearly tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.
"If these are all true, what happened to the body? "
Just because we don't understand the totality of created physics doesn't mean God doesn't. What happened to a caterpillar when a butterfly emerges?
chris, but once again you're speaking to the issue of preference as opposed to doctrine. I personally baptize new converts in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and to me the more important concern is that the candidate has made a genuine profession of faith and does not see the act of water baptism as a mandatory requirement for them to be saved but rather them making a public statement to the fact they've become a Christian and they desire to follow Christ for the rest of their life.
cmoc, you just descibed the Trinity, one God yet three distinct personalities and three distinct roles, but yet the same one and only True God. Hopefully prophet's response helped, but also remember that Christ also appeared in a visible form in the Old Testament, two examples are when He wrestled with Jacob and when He was in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Most refer to these as the appearances of the pre-Incarnate Christ.
CMoC
His glorified body. Remember that after His ascension, He suddenly appeared out of nowhere. And another time He walked through a wall I believe, but yet Thomas was able to touch Him.
It's also interesting to note that when Jesus appeared to Thomas that Jesus told him to thrust his hand INTO Jesus' side. Into? Like into His wound? Yes.
Jesus also showed His glorified body on the "mount of transfiguration", with Moses and Elijah.
You are wrong Chris.
Trinity people, how do we square these accepted "facts":
1. God is a Spirit
2. Christ was resurrected (took up his body after death)
3. God is Christ
If these are all true, what happened to the body?
hey....does anyone want to discuss eph 4:5??
"Heresies begin when people don't hold to specifics.'
They also begin when Christians try to understand the spririt carnally.
Prophet and Believer,
Specifics do matter. Baptism is only valid in the Trinitarian format. The Bible is full of specifics without being legalistic.
Baptizing in the name of Jesus alone, will and has created more division. We should all be on the same page as the Apostles taught their disciples. Historically, Apostolic Churches founded by the Apostles baptized in the Trinitarian way. Some individuals were confused by what Peter wrote and that is where Sacred Tradition comes in and tells us what the Apostles and Jesus meant, within 50 years to the mid 100's the Trinitarian baptism was the only way to do it.
Baptizing in the name of Jesus has resurfaced only in the last 100 years. By baptizing in the name of Jesus alone it creates mis-understanding by the general population of our Trinitarian belief. We Christians worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, not Jesus alone.
Heresies begin when people don't hold to specifics.
for all of you discussing baptism, this verse clarifies much.... eph 4:5 "5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"
Censorship, huh?
So next the Satanists are gonna cry foul? Are the ultra-liberal talk shows letting Christians air their beliefs on their shows? I seriously doubt it. If this guy wants airtime, I'm sure he can find a program that will oblige him. I hear that NPR has a show that talks about UFO's. I bet they'll accomodate him.
And here is Glenn Beck's response:
"Whatever your beliefs about my religion, the concept of religious tolerance is too important to be sacrificed in response to pressure from special interest groups, especially when it means bowing to censorship."
Glenn doesn't sound too happy about the situation. I wonder if Dr. Dobson intends to defend himself against Glenn's charge of censorship? Not to mention Glenn's accusation that the article was pulled due to pressure from "special interest groups" ... that doesn't sound like a very friendly description of the folks who persuaded Dr. Dobson to pull Beck off the CitizenLink site.
Agreed.
prophet, I agree completely as long as by saying in the name of Jesus only they are not denying the Trinity.
believer,
Amen. That's the point I've been trying to get across too. Whether you do it in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...or in the name of Jesus...it makes no difference. It's all the same God.
for, my concern is when we try to make a gray issue in the Bible into a black and white issue, as with the discussion of the statement used when someone is water baptized, do we say in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit or do we baptize them in the name of Jesus only. Personally, I don't have a problem with either one unless those who do it in the name of Jesus only do it that way because they deny the Trinity, but star2 believes in her opinion that those who do it in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not in compliance with the Word of God and that we are to only water baptize someone in the name of Jesus only. The point I was trying to make with regards to Pastors and Bible commentators is that there are those who are much more knowledgeable than most of us in interpreting and understanding the Word of God, this is where God has gifted them, and while we need to use godly discernment, most if not all of us can put our confidence in what they say and teach. And at the same time we need to do our best to understand God's Word and not allow ourselves to become totally dependent on others when it comes to understanding the Word of God and so we can also recognize as you said either a false teacher or false teaching.
saltnlight,
Amen. It is so.
Another example of the mystery of the trinity:
John 14:16-18
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Jesus said God would send another Comforter, but then He says "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you."
Interesting. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
John the Baptist said that Jesus would baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Can anyone show me scripture from the Gospels where Jesus does that? No.
It happens after He "leaves". And Jesus baptized the 120 in the Holy Ghost and with fire. Again....is Jesus the Holy Ghost?
God, three but one, great mystery. Can anyone comprehend such a thing?
Prophet,
I agree . . .
What I see is one scripture that says to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That is one baptism, not three. But I also see scripture that says to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. No, that is not talking about salvation alone, other wise Peter would have said "Repent in the name of Jesus, and be baptized."
I see no differnce between the two ways of baptizing. I am a "trinitarian", but I also believe God is one God. How can that be so? Because whether you're baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost...or in the name of Jesus...it's still the same God.
Who is Jesus? God.
So what is God's name? Jesus.
Star2, (I just believe that you don't understand scripture in this area as evidence of your position.)
The feeling is mutual . . . The bottom line is that the name/names in which we are baptized is not as important as the recognition that baptism identifies us with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, our Savior. We are buried with Him and raised to walk with Him in newness of life.
Online, I agree to disagree with you on this issue. I just believe that you don't understand scripture in this area as evidence of your position.
We are all accountable to God for what we believe and for what we teach. It is between you and God on what you believe as it is between me and God on what I believe. Let God correct each of us according to His Word.
John 17:17 - "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."
Star2,
(Online4Him, believer, and Prophet as well as those who water baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, you all have no understanding of the Word of God.)
Come on now sis . . . can we have a discussion without allowing our passions to get the best of us? When we disagree with one another; let us at least disagree agreeably?
believer, I use to look to man, whether it was a Pastor, a denomination, or a commentator for understanding of the Word of God until God set me free from that and had me looking to Him for the understanding of His Word.
Basically, this is what happened. I was out street witnessing one day in 1981 and the last person I spoke to was a Jehovah Witness that lived in my neighborhood. He had no knowledge of what religious affliation I had which was Baptist at the time. I asked him if he had any faith in Jesus? He preceed to tell me how he is a cop and that soliciting my literature in the mobile home park where we lived was against the law. He then said that he was a Jehovah Witness and that he didn't believe like the Baptist that once saved always saved. He said that if you don't live righteously then you can't go to heaven. I disagreed with him and quoted Eph 2:8-9. He still insisted on his point of view. Then I said to him, "Sir, I don't know about you but I am a sinner and if not for the grace of God on judgement day I have no hope." I then continued on my way. As I left that man my whole platform of once saved always saved was riped from underneath my feet and I didn't know what to believe.
When I got home I immediately went into my study and asked God what happended. He spoke to me and said, "Pat, your beliefs are not your own but someone elses."
From that moment on I decided to go to the Word of God myself to see what His Word says instead of going to man. Over time God has helped me understand the doctrine of salvation (which I know you diagree with), as well as other doctrinal issues.
I no longer listen to man to learn the Word of God. I read no commentaries. If I hear a Preacher on TV, or on the radio, or when I go to Church and hear a bible teacher or the Pastor expound on the Word of God I listen to what he/she says and compare it to what I understand the Word of God to say. I will either agree with what he/she says, or I will disagree, or I will not know if what he/she says is really true. If I don't know if what is said is true or not then I will go to God about it and ask Him.
Boy...what a dialogue!!! What is the missing, though, is this. There is only One way to God, and that's through Jesus Christ, who shed His blood on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Unless you come to Him...He said it Himself...I am the Way, the Truth and the Life..no man comes to the Father except through me." How difficult is that? Not too difficult, I'd surmise.
Another easy one. Mormonism is a cult!!! No question about it. Joseph Smith was another pretender to the throne and Glenn Beck, if he follows the teachings of Smith...we'll, he's polluted the Gospel for "another Gospel," and Focus on the Family was correct in pulling the book mention from its site. This is what this article is all about, not about all the claptrap about baptisms and the sort. C'mon, folks. Let's get with the program!!!
star2, what I am saying is we all listen to other men and women who have a better grasp of the Bible than we do, unless we read something from them that willfully violates the Word of God. So to say you get all your biblical understanding from God alone is not totally accurate, although ultimately our understanding of God's Word should come from God, He has and does choose to relay that understanding many times through other people such as Pastors and Bible commentators
Not so believer. I disagree with many doctrines of the Pastors I have had in the past. I disagree with many things the Pastor I currently have believes. There was one Pastor that held similar beliefs as me but I held my belief before I went to his Church.
star2, so there is a difference between listening to a Pastor than listening to a Bible commentator, since you often cite your Pastor or a former Pastor as the person who taught you what you believe about the Word of God?
I am gone for awhile now for various reasons. I am sure no one is crying a tear over that. Until later.....
I love you all in the Lord. Bye.
maybe satan was jesus brother. and thats why he fell. cuz God always like jesus better.
im kidding of course. what kind of person would believe that jesus had a brother?
With all due respect to you Online, water baptism is done only in the name of Jesus. That is a fact. Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a separate event/experience and it is somethng that Jesus does sometimes thru the prayer of a disciple, and sometimes not. That is a fact. To reject water baptism in the name of Jesus only and to reject the baptism of the Holy Ghost is to reject scripture.
star,
Just like you, I believe there are three baptisms. But not the same baptisms you do.
John the Baptist said he baptizes in water for the remission of sins, but Jesus will come and baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
So the three baptisms I see are the baptism of water, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and the baptism of fire.
>>>Jesus had no brother.<<<
I agree with Prophet here. The Word of God says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. To say that He had a brother is to say He was not the ONLY begtten Son of God and to make God a liar.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
But what do you all think about Paul's comment in I Corinthians 1:17
"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."
Didn't Jesus say "Go and make disciples of all the natins and baptize them....."?
"Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a separate event/experience."
I would agree with that. Though you'll see in Acts where a person is saved, baptized in water, and usually baptized in the Holy Ghost consecutively. It's like one chain reaction.
In churches today, it seems that you get saved, then a couple months later you get baptized in water, then a couple years later you are baptized in the Holy Ghost. I don't know how we got so far off.
Online4Him, believer, and Prophet as well as those who water baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, you all have no understanding of the Word of God. Why not get rid of your commentaries, pray that God give you understanding of His Word, and read your Bible? You would be surprised over time how much false doctrine you have been taught by those bible commentators.
Jesus had no brother. And the only time God became a man was in Jesus Christ. Before that He was spirit, from everlasting to everlasting. He didn't start out as a man.
To say otherwise, would be speaking against God, which would not make you a Christian.
Star2: Just a quick suggestion - read your Bible. You said, "God does not give burning sensations via the Holy Ghost to prove anything, but the devil does." You've repeatedly criticized the feeling of a burning in one's bosom, claiming that such feelings are from the devil.
Perhaps you should tell that to Luke, who said:
"And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while He talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?" Luke 24:32. Luke asked that question witnessing that the man who talked with them was Christ who had risen.
Crackpipe, thanks for posting that link. It is an interesting pattern to say the least. For some reason people of the Mormon faith have thier Doctrine constantly questioned here, yet Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, athiests, agnostics, et al get a "Pass". It is an intersting trend, that even though we have a slightly different view on the Godhead, yet we continue to believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ, we are constantly questioned, even by "Christians".
I am sure part of it is that was like was mentioned earlier. We are nice and warm and fuzzy on the outside, but the minute we get you we "turn" on you. It like like our Chapels, those really big pictures of Christ in the lobby are there, but once the services start the windows turn black and the pictures are taken down. Give me a break.
btw, if you continue to say that the Book of Mormon teaches AGAINST Christ, you are showing how absolutely naive you really are. The book is ALL about Christ and that is its main focus.
Unfortunately, I would have to disagree with star on this one.
3 thumbs down??? I didn't write the Mormans theology you know!!!
For all the Christians who claim that Mormons are members of a cult, welcome to the way the reality community views Christianity and every other popular religion.
http://scienceblogs.com/bushwells/2008/12/athiest_attacks_dont_hold_a_ca.php
Star2,
I am off this morning for a game of basketball . . . we will chat a bit later . . . have a blessed day.
Star2,
With all due respect, this passage says nothing about three baptisms . . .
No Online. I believe that Jesus is referring to three separate baptisms in Matt 28:19. I discussed what baptism in the name of Jesus is (water baptism) and what baptism with the Holy Ghost is. The baptism in the name of the Father I am still seeking God about.
To do water baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is to ignore Matt 28:19.
star2,
Should we just ignore what Jesus said in Matthew 28:19?
I don't agree with your agrument Online. Scripture establishes the way water baptism is to be done (in the name of Jesus only) not in the name of all three persons of the trinity.
The phrase, (in the name of Jesus) is not a reference to a baptismal formula, but a reference to authority. To baptize in Jesus name is to baptize in the authority of Jesus.
And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, by what power, or by what name, have ye done this? Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole (Acts 4:7-10).
So, we see that the phrase is used in the Bible as an expression of authority. This is particularly clarified Acts 16:18: (And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour).
When people were being baptized that they did it calling on Jesus name (Acts 22:16); that is, they were calling upon Jesus who has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). The church is supposed to (call upon the name of the Lord Jesus) (1 Cor. 1:2) because it is by His authority (John 1:12) that we Christians have the hope and right of forgiveness of sins and adoption as His children (Rom. 8:15).
With that being said; Jesus, who truly has all authority in heaven and earth, did say:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).
To act by the authority (in the name of) one, then, is to act by the authority (in the name of) all three, for it is the same authority. I see no problem with being baptized in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost; it is the same authority.
believer, did you not read my Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:33 am post and my 4 part post?
star2, please note that Peterwas speaking to unsaved as opposed to saved people so he very well may have been speaking to the issue of salvation as opposed to the issue of following the Lord in water baptism. Plus the moment a person is saved they are indwelt(baptized in) by the Holy Spirit.
I like that idea of having your own planet and spend eternity knocking up your wife and popping out kids. LOL. It's a wrong doctrine, but it does sound cool.
There is no marriage in heaven, so that would be kind of hard.
Well everybody I am calling it quits for the night.
rod
"...that is pretty sad and maybe says more about you and how "Christian" you really are, than about me. Remember, Christ said to love everyone"
Hey! No fair stealing the whines and complaint from the pro-gay people on this site. That's their complaint! Find your own.
Some people think you don't love them when you warn them of the path they're walking that's leading to death. Childish really. Immature. Self-centered. Egocentric. Prideful. I guess that would best describe people who don't like to be warned.
I wonder if people like that don't warn their kids when they're about to do something that could injure or kill them. If they do, they're hypocrites. If they don't, they don't love their kids.
Yes, rodH, but that love includes telling someone what truth is. To not tell you God's truth is not love.
The bridge is out on the Mormon road you are traveling on.
The source of that burning sensation is the devil.
Being married to your wife in the Temple is for the sake of setting you on the path to becoming god. If successful then you will get a planet in eternity to be the gods of and you are to bare spiritual children on that planet and lord over them.
Mormons are clean on the outside to the public. Once they snare their victims by using the Bible, they show their ungodly side by pulling out the Book of Mormon. Most people are repulsed by the Book of Mormon, that is why they are encouraged to pray and ask for a burning sensation in their bosom as proof from God that the book is from God. God does not give burning sensations via the Holy Ghost to prove anything, but the devil does.
The teachings in the Book of Mormon are contrary to the teaching in the Word of God. There is no reconcilation between the two.
The devil has duped you.
star2, and that is pretty sad and maybe says more about you and how "Christian" you really are, than about me. Remember, Christ said to love everyone.
Good night brother......err "cousin"
rodH - How did He testify to you? by a burning sensation in your bosom? That is what you are told to ask for from God for confirmation. I know because when I worked at NASA a guy in my group that was Mormon told me that. And he too was married to his wife in the Mormon Temple so he and his wife could be gods on another planet in eternity and bare spiritual children that they would rule over.
rodH - I rather doubt that you have been born-again by the spirit of God and thus you are not my brother (sister) in the Lord.
The "1% difference" in what you believe and I believe is significant and I for one cannot unify with you.
"in the sense that he has given me the ability to "procreate" and have a family."
Wow. Talk about being way out in left field. Wow.
Jesus had no brother. And the only time God became a man was in Jesus Christ. Before that He was spirit, from everlasting to everlasting. He didn't start out as a man.
star, A quick answer. YES, I have felt the spirit testify to me that the Book of Mormon is true and I will never deny that, even if you put a gun to my head, I couldn't deny it.
Yes, I was married to my lovely wife in the "Temple", and believe that I can be "like" God in the sense that he has given me the ability to "procreate" and have a family. I am a father to my children in a similar sense that he is my "Father in Heaven", in the sense that he cares and wants everything that is best for me to return to live with Him again, and in the sense that I want to be with my children again and them to be with Him again as well.
rodH
>>if a Catholic Priest teaches of the Last Supper I can feel it as well<<
The Catholic teaching about the Lord's supper is wrong. There is no presence of the Holy Ghost in false teaching. You might feel a presence of a spirit but it is not the Holy Ghost, it is an unholy spirit, the same one that gives you a burning sensation in your bosom that the Book of Mormon was from God.
John 1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God...." Later on in that chapter it says that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." So, since Jesus (the Word) is God, then why does he call God Father?
Paul says that all things are created by Jesus. Genesis says that in the beginning God created the earth. Who's right? Both.
The Gospel is simple. Jesus came as a sacrifice for our sin. And those who believe on Him will have eternal life. Simple. Concise. Small enough to fit into your pocket.
The trinity is not so easy to understand. Maybe that's why some cults explain it away. Like the idea of a God who has no beginning is impossible to understand, so instead of realizing that there are some things that may not be understood, some cults make up false doctrines to say that God was a man once. So that they can say "See? I've solved the mystery! Yay me!"
I Have to retire for the night as well.
TO all my Christian Brothers and Sisters out there, we have more in common than many want you to realize. Don't let the 1% differences be such a divider, but let the 99% of the similarities help us to unify each other. I am not talking about converting to each others' religion, I am talking about dealing with the evils of the world and upholding out family values and our moral standards.
Good night brethren.
Well rodH, did you get a burning sensation in your bosom to confirm that the book of Mormon was from God?
rodH, Joseph Smith isn't going to stand next to Jesus in eternity when you stand before Jesus to be judged.
Have you been spiritually married to your wife in the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City so you two can be gods on your own planet in eternity and bare spiritual children to rule over?
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Bossmanham - I'll quickly respond to your last comment. Paul didn't believe until he saw Jesus, but as Christ explained, it was a witness from the Father that revealed the truth to Peter's soul, NOT Christ who was standing in front of him (in flesh and blood). That was the whole point of Christ's statement. Peter's testimony was based on a witness of the Holy Spirit.
Good night!
Mormon's beliefs are blind. History does not support your faith. However, there is freedom from your sins in Jesus Christ. You can't work for your salvation, because you have already broken God's law! Jesus paid the fine for your crimes on the cross of Calvary. That is an historic FACT. Only God could pay for humanity's sins.
Early Days of Mormonism, Palmyra, Kirtland, and Nauvoo, by J. H. Kennedy, Editor of The Magazine Of Western History, 1888:
"The chief object had in mind by the Smiths in the early days of the Gold-Bible delusion was the making of money, to which was doubtless added a desire for local notoriety. The foundation of a new sect was an after-thought."
Flee the delusion!
star, stop being so closed minded.
>>>>If you are a mormon, I don't think so. The Holy Ghost doesn't put a burning sensation in your bosom<<<<
The Holy Ghost testifies of ALL truth. If I listen to an Evangelical Minister preaches about morality, I will feel the presence of the Holy Ghost, if a Catholic Priest teaches of the Last Supper I can feel it as well. The power of the Holy Ghost isn't limited, it teaches and bears witness to ALL things pointing to Christ and all Truth.
Who is being closed minded?
I also see we have some Mormon "martyrs" are this site.
Ok. I found Mormonism to be a cult. Jesus was the ONLY begotten son of God, so he had no brother. God is spirit, and never changes, so he's always been a spirit. He is not an exalted man.
Again, bossmanham, what do I care about what Catholics, Lutherans, or others think about Mormons. My faith is not based on their approval, but the spirit of God.
I've studied the Bible my whole life, and I love that book. I challenge you to do the same, and witness to you that you'll draw as close to Christ as you seek to. His arms are always open.
I've got to call it a night, but I hope we'll all remember that we're all striving to follow Christ as we understand him, and we're brothers (and sisters) in that quest. I wish you all the best. God bless.
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
-2 Peter 1:16
rodH - I don't accept CAtholic Doctrine. The teachings and practices of the RCC are heretical and Church is apostate. Ask any Catholic who knows me here at CP and they will tell you that I am always showing them from scripture that they are wrong in their doctrine and practice.
I have never seen you before until now. Are you new to CP?
zmaj, you and I know that science and archelogy never have been used to "prove" religion. Funny how they try and use that now, but against an agnostic or atheist it has no place?
How can one honeslty discribe the parting of the Red Sea? The Burning Bush? The great flood? The Reserrection? The list goes on and on. If your testimony of religion is based on science and archeology you are in for some rough times brother.
zmaj, that's silly. Paul saw Jesus and hadn't believed before then. The facts are just a supplement to what I already believed. They stand up to the test. Your faith falls short when you look at the facts. Paul was not condoning a blind faith.
btw, why is NO ONE answering my question regarding accepting Catholic Doctrines, yet not accepting the Catholic Religion? And why is it that the leaders of the Catholic Church are FAR more freindly to the LDS church than our other "Christian" bretheren?
rodH
>>>star, I actually think we have more in common in regards to the Holy Ghost than you think.<<<
If you are a mormon, I don't think so. The Holy Ghost doesn't put a burning sensation in your bosom to confirm that the Book of Mormon is from God.
star, I am a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" which is the official title of the Church. It is actually the VERY first Church to actually use the name of "Christ" in its title. Many others were too afraid to use the title because they thought it would be blasphomy, I am actually proud that our Church is named after Jesus Christ, since He is our central figure. Others know us as "Mormons" named after "Mormon" who was a prophet in the Book of Mormon, that testified of Christ.
That's weak, bossmanham. Faith based on fact is no faith at all. Archeology and science are nice support for belief, but they are no foundation for a testimony of Christ. I believe Christ said it best: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt 16:17. And as Paul said: "... your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." 1 Cor. 2:5.
How Did Joseph Smith "Translate" the Book of Mormon?
http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/video/how-did-joseph-smith-translate-book-mormon
zmaj, it's not just evangelicals. Catholics and Lutherans and all other Christian denominations affirm that Mormonism is a cult.
Please take up this challenge. Study the Bible first and foremost, without your Mormon filter. Study Christian history. Study the archaeological shortcomings of the Book of Mormon. Study the Bible's amazing accuracy (textual criticism). Then get back to me.
zmaj, Your right, it proves what we already know. NO big deal, we don't need others to "approve" what we believe, as long as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ does, thats ALL that matters!!!
Personally, I don't care what evangelicals think about Mormonism. I don't need their affirmation to justify my faith. My faith is affirmed by the Spirit, and that's all I need.
What bugs me is the evangelical hypocrisy demonstrated by Focus on the Family. When Prop. 8 was up in California, Focus and the rest of the Christian right was more than willing to let the Mormons foot the bill and get out the vote. We were their best friends! When the Mormons were attacked after the election for their support on Prop. 8, all you heard from our evangelical "brethren" was crickets chirping. Now they're removing articles about Glen Beck. It's back to the same old thing.
rodH, am I right to conclude that you are a mormon?
star,
I liked reading this one from you "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22)."
Those are the exact words in our "Confirmation" ceremony when we "receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost".
Fifth Generation Mormon Comes TO Christ.
http://evidenceministries.org/mormons.php?viewarticle=45
star, I actually think we have more in common in regards to the Holy Ghost than you think.
rodH
>>>You seem to have a LOT of questions on these doctrines, yet at the same time seem to be very quick to reject others that just might have some answers.<<<
Any one who can't see from scripture that water baptism is done in the name of Jesus only and that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a separate event then they have no answer to my question of what is the baptism in the name of the Father.
The only question I have at the moment is baptism in the name of the Father. I seek God for understanding of His Word not man. You all would be wise to do the same.
zmaj, nice try. The apostles were men of faith, but it was a faith based on reason and evidence. They saw the living Christ. None of them fully understood until they saw Him resurrected. Christianity is a faith based on reason and evidence and facts. The Bible has been proven accurate time after time textually and archaeologically, and it's 10 times older than the Book of Mormon, which has never been proven archaeologically, and HAS been proven to have had many textual errors.
rod, you conveniently left out some qualifying words I used such as exhaustively and apprehend. If God reveals Himself to someone, that someone better believe God is who He says He is. God has chosen progressive revelation as His method. Moses or Abraham or any of the old testament Hebrews did not have a complete understanding of who was going to be coming to die for their sins (See Jesus) but they believed God when He revealed they would. God Has chosen to reveal His triune nature to us. If we refuse to believe Him, we are calling Him a liar and worshiping a false God.
really amazing isn't it. I can listen to a Christian "Brother" talk about values and agree with him, but the minute a "Mormon" is talking about something similar, it is thrown out the window.
Truly amazing. Like they say "if these are our Friends, who needs enemies"
Please note the following
1) I am a trinitarian. I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
2) Do not accuse me of believing that a believer who has not been baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues does not have the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost.
After Jesus had risen from the dead and appeared to His disciples, one of the things He said unto them was, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost" (John 20:22). He also told them before he ascended into Heaven that they were to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the promise of the Father which was to be baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5).
To be baptised with the Holy Ghost is to be filled with the Holy Ghost.
They had the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost before they were filled with the Holy Ghost (baptized with the Holy Ghost).
I believe that at conversion, when a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and receives Him into their heart as Savior and Lord, that he is indwelt by the Holy Ghost but not filled with the Holy Ghost. The believer doesn't become filled with the Holy Ghost until he is baptized in the Holy Ghost.
Having the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost is different than being filled with the Holy Ghost.
Shouldn't be a surprise, RodH. That's what the article was about in the first place. We can't let the Mormon's be heard by anyone. They might just make sense.
WOW, was someones post just deleted because he mentioned a verse in the Book Of Mormon that talked about Jesus Christ? Did that really just happen?
bossman, Why are we not "called" to understand this doctrine, it was mentioned to the apostles and writtin in this great book we call the Holy Bible, why aren't we supposed to understand it, and who is the one who told you that? I have spoken to plenty of "Christians" who claim to understand it, certainly the Nicene Creed came about so they could better "understand" and unify the doctrine to teach the other church goers to "understand" it.
Bossmanham,
So let me get this straight: God is "one being expressed as three persons who are eternally distinct." I hear evangelicals say that from time to time, and it makes absolutely no sense. What on earth is that supposed to mean? One being? Yes. Three distinct beings? Yes. One and three at the same time? Yes. Oh, that's clear.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is plain, precious, and simple. It's not a riddle. You preach confusion.
As for a lack of "historical and archeological support," that's hardly valid criticism if one purports to be a man of faith. Show me archeological support for the Moses parting the Red Sea or Jesus rising from the dead. Faith is not based on archeological support; it's based on a witness from the Spirit. I believe that's what it means in Hebrews when it says that faith is "to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true." Heb. 11:1.
star, could being "baptized" in the name of the Holy Spirit/Ghost possible be a different event, like possibly "receiving" the "Holy Spirit/Ghost"?
You seem to have a LOT of questions on these doctrines, yet at the same time seem to be very quick to reject others that just might have some answers.
star2,
I will have to go back and re-read it and then continue our discussion here perhaps tomorrow. When . . . dont know; going to the football game . . .
rod, we're not called to exhaustively understand the Godhead. But that is how God revealed Himself to us, so we MUST apprehend it. Otherwise we are worshiping a false God and are lost in our sins. See IDOLATRY.
I know that the Father is God. I know that the Word (the Son) is God, and I know that the Holy Ghost is God. These three are one. Each have a different role.
billBob, It really is an amazing series of events isn't it. I am not sure why it is such a big deal for someone not of the "Mormon" faith to hear what a "Mormon" has to say and value thier opinion. I am pretty sure Mr. Beck didn't give a 10 page discourse on the Doctrine of the Trinity and the Nicene Creed. I am pretty confident that he focused on issues that all "Christians" can relate to when it come to Families, morals, and values, yet the article gets pulled simply because he has a slightly different view that perhaps the Godhead consists of 3 distinct beings, and therefore disqualifies him from being considered a "Christian" which further disqualifies him to speak of ANY truth and ANY area of morality, values, or family.
On the flip side, I have never understood how I can listen to a good "Christian" friend of mine and he can listen to my and we actually agree on most everything when it comes to these issues. So what if we don't believe in the EXACT same Doctrine of the Godhead, That doesn't give me the right to say that he isn't "Christian" and that doesn't give him the right to say that I am not either.
Another thing I have NEVER understood with this debate is this: If, one is defined as being "Christian" simply by how they understand certain doctrines of the Bible, why is it that so many of these groups throw out the Catholic religion and its teachings? The current doctrine being taught (and the same doctrine that disqualifies Mormons, and other mentioned religions) by all of these groups was formed at the Nicene Creed in 325ad and later at the Athanasian Creed in the 6th century. The irony here is that those Doctrines were written (inspired?) by the very men and leaders of the early Catholic (Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox) church. Isn't it ironic that you take so much weight in a doctrine that was brought to you by the Catholic Church, yet the Catholic Church is one of the Churches that some here do NOT consider "Christian"? Isn't it ironic that people are going back to the early days of Christianity (but not too early, because before 325 ad, MANY Christian leaders/bishops were teaching the 3 distinct being doctrine(s)) as the defining moment of whcih doctrines to accept, but then NOT ACCEPTING the Catholic Church? In other words, if you really really believe in these doctrines, AND believe that the people were inspired to write such things, and these people were Bishops of the Catholic Church, then why aren't you Catholic? This is the DEFINING DOCTRINE and you are throwing out the authors and the inspired men that came up with it?
As mentioned by a few here, the Trinity, the Godhead or whatever you want to call it can be a confusing doctrine, but being so, how are soooooo many thrown out of the "Christian" title based on this "confusing doctrine"?
Yes, Online we were talking about whether water baptism is done in the name of Jesus only or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Scripture is clear that water baptism is done in the name of Jesus only. Scripture is also clear that baptism in the Holy Ghost is also a spearte event. If Jesus said to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy ghost and the later two are separate events then the baptism in the name of the Father is also a separate event, though at this point, I don't know exactly yet what that is; I have an idea but I am not exactly sure. I won't say "thus sayest the Lord", but I have been praying about it. Did you read my 4 part post where I show this to be true and that the baptism in the Holy Ghost is a separate event?
Star2,
So, you are a trinitarian . . . that is one God in three persons; forgive me if it sounds like I am going over the same ground here but I did not see in your post one God in three persons. . .
star, I agree for the most part. I must have misread something.
zmaj, there's no problem with that verse. True Christians have always affirmed that God is one being expressed as three persons who are eternally distinct. To see the Father and the Son next to each other isn't a surprise to us. When Jesus was baptized, you saw the Son and the Holy Spirit together and heard the father. Take off your Mormon filter and read the true revealed Word of God. Examine the amazing lack of historical and archaeological support for the fairy tale Joseph Smith and his cronies cooked up. Please, for the sake of your soul!
I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, these three are one. It is clear in scripture that each have a different role. God the Father is the Authority. He did not die on the cross to pay for your sins and rose from the dead. God the Son is under the authority of God the Father. He died on the cross to pay for your sins and God the Father raised Him from the dead thru the power of the Holy Ghost. God the Holy Ghost is under the authority of God the Father and the Son. He does not speak of Himself but speak what He hears from the Father, guides you into all truth, teaches you all things, and shows you things to come. If you call that modalism then yes I am a modalist. The three persons of the trinity have different roles. That is clear from scripture.
star, this is how Jesus said to baptize.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
-Matthew 28:19
Mormons are NOT saved because they worship a false Christ. Their Jesus is a created being, and the brother of Lucifer. Their God the Father is also a created being who was once a man.
Here's a Joe Smith quote:
According to revelation, however, he [God] is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (D. & C. 130:22- 23; Moses 6:51, 57; Abra. 3:22-24; Jos. Smith 2:16-19.)"
(Continued from last post.)
What about Jesus's own words after his resurrection when he told Mary he had "not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. Was he lying? According to evangelicals, that must mean he had not yet ascended to himself. Or what about when he told Simon Peter that he was blessed "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt 16:17. Again, was he lying that his Father was in heaven? According to evangelicals, His Father (er, Himself) was standing right there.
What about the story of Stephen? According to Acts 7:55-56 as Stephen was being stoned:
55 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand God,"
56 "And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."
What do evangelicals think Stephen saw "standing on the right hand of God"? His shadow?
There are scriptures that say the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one. Christ himself explained what is meant by "one": unity, inseparability, as Christ said, that the "Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father." Matt 16:27. The theory that the three are actually one single being is simply not compatible with the stories told in the Bible by the people who were there, or with the words of Christ Himself.
It absolutely baffles me how evangelicals can try to use the Bible to defend their "three-in-one" Nicene Creed trinity. The New Testament makes clear that the Father, Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings, fully united in all things and inseparable (and thus "one").
Look at Christ's baptism. In all four Gospels, Jesus is in the water, the voice of the Father is heard "from heaven," and the Holy Ghost is said to descend upon Jesus like a dove. Matt 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, John 1. Describes three distinct beings in three separate places.
Don't rely on my interpretation. Let Christ explain himself. What about the great intercessory prayer by Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane? In John 17, Christ prayed for his followers:
11 "... keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."
...
21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
22 "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"
23 "I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
What did Christ mean when he asked that his disciples be "one, even as we are one"? According to evangelicals, that must mean that Christ wanted his followers to all meld into the same being. Or, is it plausible that he wanted them to all be untied and inseparable, as Christ and the Father are?
By the way, who was Christ praying to anyway? Himself? That seems like a silly interpretation.
(Continued in next post.)
Star2,
So you are Trinitarian . . . I was just trying to understand where everyone stood; since the past conversation have been on the method of baptism . . . that is in what name or names one should be baptized into, right?
Online, why do you say, "From what I am gathering, it seems that you and star2 believe in modalism . . . would this be accurate?"
Is it because I believe that when Jesus said to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost that He was refering to three separate baptisms?
Scripture defines what truth is. Search the scripture and you will never find water baptism being done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You will find it done in the name of Jesus only. The baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues was a separate event and done by Jesus. Since the baptism in the name of the Son and the baptism in the Holy Ghost are separate events then the baptism in the name of the Father is also a separate event from the other two although I am not quite sure yet what it is.
The belief in one God who expressed himself in three roles/modes . . . in contrast to the traditional view of one God revealed in three persons.
I looked up 'modalism' on wikipedia. No I am not nontrinitarian. I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, these three are one.
I believe that God is one, but three expressions.
define 'modalism' Online
Prophet,
From what I am gathering, it seems that you and star2 believe in modalism . . . would this be accurate?
My hunch is that this must have been a very compelling interview. I know that each time I listen to Mr. Beck, I pause and wonder, wow, this guy is Mormon?
I don't like the way Mormons have been treated among Christians who they, the Mormons, would otherwise consider to be their friends. I truly felt awful to see them take the brunt of persecution after the elections when I know that our congregation took great pride in promoting prop 102 here in AZ. We have taken our bigotry to such an extent as to divide the Republican party in preventing who would have otherwise been a formidable opponent in the 2008 presidential race.
I really would have liked to have read this interview. Sad.
saltnlight,
" As a matter of fact a warning is given revelations for those who do add to and take away."
No. That warning in Revelations is for the Book of Revelations. But I would not advise anyone doing that to the Bible either.
But you are sounding a little like a Catholic. Is that your "persuasion"? LOL.
There are apostles today. Paul spoke of the five fold ministry which is used for the edifying of the saints. Apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, and evangelist.
I'm sure the saints today still need edifying and that none of those ministries has been eliminated.
But as I said, I don't believe we have the right to add or remove from the Word.
I don't write holy scipt but when I am out witnessing the Holy Ghost brings to my remembrance what Jesus has said so I can witness to people. God thru the Holy Ghost in the name of Jesus teaches me what scritpure means and guides me into all truth. I experience those scriptures (John 14:26, John 16:13). The Apostle John said that you need no man to teach you but as the Holy Ghost teaches you you are to abide in it. (1 John 2:27).
Online,
Don't forget this passage "Hear, O Israel: The Lordr God is one Lord"
believer,
"I see you read my mind, but as I told prophet many Bible commentators say that Peter was referring to people being saved and not water baptism when he made that statement..."
If that were true, then Peter would have said "Repent."
But he didn't. He said "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus." That doesn't mean that you have to be baptized in order to be saved. I'm not sure where you come up with that. It's like saying "Get in your car and drive to the store." You don't have to drive to the store in order for you to be in your car.
The nature of God is indeed the greatest theological study that one can engage in and it can be very daunting trying to wrap our little minds around this . . . it is like trying to explain our human experiences to an ocean claim, lol; seriously, there are scriptural passages that mention the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as separate persons . . .
What about these passages?
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased (Luke 3:22).
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Also, 2 Corinthians 13:14 mentions the three persons in the Godhead. (The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.).
believer
I disagree with those many bible commentators because scriptures clearly shows that water baptism was done in the name of Jesus only after the believers were saved. In one account, the believers (Cornelius, his kinfolks, and closest friends) had alreay received the baptism in the Holy Ghost before they were water baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:47-48).
Read my four part post, and look up the scriptures yourself and you will see that.
believer
>>star2, please cite your scripture to support the view that new converts are only to be baptized in the name of Jesus? <<
When a person became a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ he/she was water baptized and it was done in the name of Jesus only. The baptism of the Holy Ghost was a separate event.
star2, I see you read my mind, but as I told prophet many Bible commentators say that Peter was referring to people being saved and not water baptism when he made that statement, unless you are saying that water baptism is required for a person to be saved?
From: Salvation Army Leader to Lose Job for Violating Marriage Policy
Subject of post: Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, three separate baptisms.
Part 1
Matthew 28:19 - "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
After Jesus had risen from the dead He appeared unto His disciples. he rebuked them for theior unbelief and hardness of heart (Mark 16:14), He commissioned to go into all the world and preach the gospel (Mark 16:15), to preach repentance and remission of sins in His name (Luke 24:47), to teach them to observe all that He has commanded (Matt 28:20), and to baptised them (believers) in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Matt 28:19).
Jesus also openned to the disciples the understanding of the scripture (Luke 24:49).
Jesus breathed on them and said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost". (John 20:22)
Before Jesus ascended into Heaven He told them to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the promise of the Father, which was to be baptised with the Holy Ghost. (Luke 24:29, Acts 1:5)
Acts 1:4-5
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
star2, please cite your scripture to support the view that new converts are only to be baptized in the name of Jesus?
Part 2
The baptism of John was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. He called people to repentance and those who chose to repent were water baptised by him.
Jesus told His disciples to preach repentance and the remission of sins in His name to all nations (Luke 24:47). Scripture tells us that on the day of Pentecost, the disciples, and other believers, including Mary, the mother of Jesus, altogether approximately 120 believers, were baptised in the Holy Ghost. They were filled with the Holy Ghost, and spoke with other tongues (languages unknown to them) as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Devout Jews living in Jerusalem from many different nations heard the believers speaking in languages unknown to them about the wonderous works of God. Many wondered what it meant and others mocked saying that these believers were drunk.
Part 3
Peter stood up among the disciples and began to preach Jesus Christ. These devout Jews heard the gosple and wanted to know what they must do (Acts 2:37). "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Act 2:38)
Note here that they were commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. This baptism was a water baptism. We can deduce this from Acts 10:47-48. Peter, after he preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Cornelius, his kinfolks, and his closest friends, they began to speak in other tongues and glorified God (indicating that they had received the gift of the Holy Ghost) said "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." (Acts 10:47-48)
Also note that speaking in other tongues was an indication that the believer had received the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:47, 8:15)/received the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:45)/was filled with the Holy Ghost (acts 2:5)/baptized with the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:5). "received the Holy Ghost/received the gift of the Holy Ghost/was filled with the Holy Ghost/baptized with the Holy Ghost are all phrases that were used in identifying the event that resulted in believers speaking in other tongues.
Part 4
It is very clear from scripture that water baptism is a separate event from baptism in the Holy Ghost and that water baptism is done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ only (Acts 1:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12,15,16, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6).
Who baptises a believer with the Holy Ghost? According to John the Baptist it is Jesus Christ.
Mark 1:8 -"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
Matthew 3:11 - "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
If water baptism, which is a baptism done in the name of Jesus Christ (the Son)is a separate event from a baptism with the Holy Ghost then the baptism of the Father is also a separate event from the other two.
What is the baptism of the Father? I am not completely certain at this point for the scripture never comes right out and identifies it as it has for the baptism in the name of the Son and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Prophet, re-read in Acts where water baptism was done. You will see that it was done only in the name of the Lord Jesus.
i believe in the trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Hoy Ghost. It is very plain in scripture that water baptism is done in the name of the Son (the Lord Jesus) only.
All I see in Acts is that when someone is saved, they are usually immediately baptized in water and in the Holy Ghost.
But I also belive in a third "baptism", as spoken of by John the Baptist. Which it appears is different than anything that you two are talking about.
believer, what is the doctrine of the trinity?
star2, I know some churches teach three types of baptism, being baptized in Christ at the moment a person is saved, being water baptized as a result of being saved, and being baptized in the Holy Spirit. And although I might not agree totally with their view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I don't see any of these denying the doctrine of the Trinity. My concern would be a church or denomination that does not water baptize a person in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit because they don't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.
i see! it's like the "who came first? the chicken or the egg" ploy. yeah yeah, that's it. when in doubt....act dum!
Regarding Mormonism.
"As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become."
"It is a true, unwavering, long-held belief and LDS gospel certainty: As man is God once was; as God is man may become - but I'm not sure that we teach it." Hinckley.
Here's my question...which came first, God or Man?
It seems Mormonism has no first Cause.
I didn't realize there was a mystery. LOL. Jesus came to us as a human, being born of a virgin, living a sinless life, dying a theif's death for our sins, rising again on the third day, ascending to heaven where He sits on the right hand of the Father. What is the mystery?
"Yet neither are called Christian because they both reject the Trinity, they both reject that Jesus is GOD and the ONLY son of God."
Close but... The Morman's believe Adam progressed to become a god, went to bed with Mary and came up with the body of Jesus. Mr. and Mrs. GOD had a spirit son which possessed the body of Jesus at the Baptism of John. The spirit Son of God left the body on the cross thus "why have you forsaken me".
This is known as the Docrine of Adam/God within the Morman faith and really isn't taught much anymore. Still, it is church doctrine.
beleiver
>>>The question I have is why would a church choose not to baptize a new convert in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and is there any biblical basis for that choice? <<<
The Baptism in the name of the Father is a separate event from the baptism in the name of Jesus, which is a separate event from baptism in the Holy Ghost. A Church should bring a believer to experience all three baptisms. Many don't because of doctrine.
Pentecostal churches will encourage a believer to be experience water baptism and baptism in the Holy with the evidence of speaking in other tongues but not baptism in the name of the Father.
A Pastor cannot baptise a believer in the name of the Holy Ghost because that is something only Jesus can do. However, in many cases, the Pastor will pray for the believer to receive it if that is the will of the person. I have known believers to receive the baptism in the Holy Ghost by going to their Pastor and asking that he pray for them to receive it. Another was just sitting in Church before the services began and an Elder of the Church laid hands on her to receive the Holy Ghost and she received it while driving home from Church . A man in my Church who was pentecostal in doctrine but had never experienced the baptism in the Holy Ghost received it one evening while listening to the preaching of the Word. Another man received it when he was being water baptized. When the Pastor raised him out of the water he began speaking in tongues. Another, a baptist, received it while she was praying one day.
I am not quite sure yet what is the baptism of the Father. I have been praying about it. When I know for sure and can show it biblically I will post it on 'Salvation Army Leader to Lose Job for Violating Marriage Policy' which is where I was sharing from scripture with you and others why baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is three different baptisms.
The early church did water baptism in the name of Jesus only. The baptism of the Holy Ghost was a separate event. Heresy entered into the Curch and they began to water baptize in the name of the Father,Son, and Holy Ghost. That hersey has continued down thru the ages to this day.
Many do water baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost out of ignorance of the scripture, or lack of understanding of the Word of God, or out of tradition, or out of refusal to submit their beliefs to the obvious teachings in God's Word once they were shown what truth is.
If the baptism in the name of Jesus is separate from the baptism of the Holy Ghost, then so is the baptism in the name of the Father.
msnchris70, what makes you think I am not trinitarian? I believe in the trinity. I confessed on 'Salvation Army Leader to Lose Job for Violating Marriage Policy' that I did.
Here is the post:
Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:10 pm : 0 : 0 Flag Delete
Please note the following
1) I am a trinitarian. I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
1 John 5:7 - "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Matthew 22
41While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Which is taken from Psalms 110.
As I said, the trinity is a mystery. God in three persons.
Someone explained it this way. I'm not sure how good of an analogy it is, but hopefully it will help.
We are three persons in one as well. We are a spirit, soul, and body. The same is with God. "God" is the "soul", the Holy Spirit is the spirit, and Jesus is the body.
All the same, but different expressions.
first, i know of churches that baptize in the name of the father,son and holy spirit. i know of churches that baptize in jesus name only. i even know of a church that baptizes in the name of the father,son and holy ghost in jesus' name. this has been in my spirit heavily here lately. i came to christ 3 yrs ago. but here recently the wording of the trinity has been bothering me. i dont think the wording of 3 "persons" is a proper way to describe the nature of God. first muslims and orthodox jews will say we worship 3 gods. second read the old testament prophecies of the coming messiah. they point to Jesus being God with us, everlasting Father, mighty God. but they also point to him in his humanity being the suffering servant. in him dwells all the fullness of the deity in bodily form. paul said it is a mystery. and i think any thinking christian will contemplate the nature of God. now the question you must answer is before the new testament, before the incarnation, was there a God the Father, and God the Son, or did the ancient of days leave his throne into the divinely conceived flesh of Jesus Christ, conceived of God's Spirit, pure and holy, with royal blood, not the blood of fallen man. Jesus said before abraham " i am", is it " i am also" or is it " i am ". Jesus is God. the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost is Jesus. the triune nature of God is not 3 persons but i think more like 3 manifestations, or personas, not different people, thats 3 gods. when i die i will see who? i will see jesus, the bible clearly states. muslims have been coming to christ through visions of him. he even said God is spirit. spirit put on the flesh in the man Jesus, who now is the exalted one, the image of the invisible God. i think its the greatest thing to ever happend, and shows the love the Lord has for his people. please respond, again i am on my journey with Jesus, i dont even begin to think i know all the answers, but would love to hear what you think. God bless you.
(I don't even know what "name" I was baptized under. All I know is that I was)
I am sure that the Lord knows who we are referring to when we baptize in the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost . . .
I've only come across a handfull of ministers who baptized in the name of Jesus. To me, it was no different. I never asked them, because at the time, it was not an issue with me. To be honest, it still isn't. LOL. I don't even know what "name" I was baptized under. All I know is that I was.
That's kind of like some churches have a long "sinner's prayer" for those wanting to be saved. I haven't found that in Scripture yet. When I've preached, or ministered, at churches and had altar calls for salvation. I just had people come up who wanted to get saved. I quote Romans 10:9-10, and aske them if they confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead. And if they say yes, then I pray for them. They are saved.
prophet, I guess for me I'd want to know why they use only Jesus name when they baptize someone to see where they do stand on the Trinity issue, I wouldn't assume they deny the Trinity simply because of the words they use when they baptize someone.
Have people gone so far into the trinity that they forget that He is still one God?
I don't know how they can separate those two in that scripture since he specifically says "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus."
So the only two options are these:
1.Repent AND baptized in the name of Jesus.
2.Repent. Then after that be baptized in the name of Jesus.
According to people that believe the way you pointed out, Peter would of had to say "Repent in the name of Jesus, and be baptized." Which he didn't.
prophet, thanks, but most solid commentators say Peter was referring to a person being saved as opposed to water baptism for a person who has been saved. So my sense is there is more to this issue than that, but once again I personally don't know any church in my area or any other place I've lived that just baptizes in the name of Jesus when it comes to water baptism.
Maybe he knew a little more about the trinity than we care to.
believer,
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
The question I have is why would a church choose not to baptize a new convert in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and is there any biblical basis for that choice?
forsaltnlight,
I'm the one who posted "I'm just wondering who created the world." I hope you read in context with the entire conversation and realized that it was a rhetorical question. LOL.
I was trying to explain the trinity, how God was one, but yet three. The great mystery of God.
It sounds like the editors at Focus On The Family need to be on their toes as much as Dr. Dobson himself.
The Christian viewpoint (liberal and conservative) is under an intense microscope right now.
But I am very happy to see that they are taking more seriously what is being said in the "Blogosphere".
Pastor Warren needs to keep this in mind as well.
Surely you're not going to let scripture trump dogma, are you? That would be so un-catholic.
So, John 1 is wrong. As is Colossians.
And you say that I'm not a Christian. I never said I didn't believe in the trinity. Only you did.
Can you call me something worse? That is a really lame insult.
Prophet,
WHAT CHURCH DO YOU ATTEND??? Answer this simple Question.
So, all of us can go to its web page and see if it is a Christian denomination or not.
Pretty simple request. You reject basic Trinitarian definitions and put your own spin on it, therefore; you are not a Christian.
John One says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God..." and then in continues in later to reveal that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". So, yes, Jesus and God are the same. As I said before...the mystery of the trinity is a mystery we may never fully understand.
I think verse 15 says it all: Jesus is "is the image of the invisible God..."
Geneis 1:1 says "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
Colossians 1:13-17 says "13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Well, did God create the heavens and the earth? Or did Jesus?
Wow, Prophet. You need to learn the basics of Christianity.
Could you tell me the name of the church you go to? It will be evident whether you are Christian or not.
I'm just wondering who created the world. That's what I want to know.
I've been called worse.
Muslims claim to be monotheists. They have only Allah. They accuse Christians of being polytheists. We have the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
So Jesus lied. I gotcha.
Prophet,
So neither you or Star2 are Trinitarians???? I knew it! You are not even a Christian.
Prophet,
The Holy Spirt is never the Son. No mainline Christian group or evangelical would agree to that. So, you are incorrect. The Holy Spirit and Jesus are two distinct and different persons made of the same substance. This is what we mean by "Begotten".
Three distict persons who accomplish three separate functions, but all of the same substance. It is their mutual Divine substance which makes them one God in three persons.
God the Father is never the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. God the Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit and God the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. But they are all one God.
Prophet, if you do not believe this then you are not a Christian in anyone's book.
It has nothing to do with the trinity. Try to keep your misguided allegations to yourself.
msnchris,
Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet ONLY, not the Son of God. They don't believe that God had a Son. So, no they are not Christians.
Mormons belive that Jesus wasn't the ONLY BEGOTTEN son of God, that He had another. So, no they are not Christian either.
I thought you knew all this stuff...
Mormons and Muslims believe in Jesus. Yet neither are called Christian because they both reject the Trinity, they both reject that Jesus is GOD and the ONLY son of God.
Mormons love to twist the word "Divinity" because in their definition we can all become Divine. NO WE CAN NOT.
Jesus is the Son of God and He is GOD. Jesus was always Jesus, He was always the Son of God. He was never the Arch Angel Michael. Angels can't become Human and Humans can't become Angels. We humans have free will, Angels do not.
The Reason why Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are not Christian is because they have defined Jesus differently from Christianity. They are polytheists. Jesus in the Mormon world was made, not begotten. Jesus in the Jehovah world is not God.
We Christians and you Mormons do not believe in the same Jesus.
Baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit....or baptizing in the name of Jesus. Which is right.
The answer....both.
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
So we see that the name of the Holy Spirit is Jesus.
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
So we see that there is no distinction between the Son and the Father.
Quite a mystery, the trinity.
I happen to be an American Christian of the Presbyterian variety, but I've always said that if a visitor came from Mars and was asked to pick which world religion was the wierdest (or most cult-like), he would have a hard time. Everybody's dogma and doctrine (not to mention ancient stories!) are pretty weird.
I guess my last post didn't actually post. Give these a minute to load; these are responses from one of the leaders of the Mormon Church on this topic. Orson Scott Card does a pretty good job, but this message is crystal clear- if you watch these, you'll understand what Mormons believe and then can decide for yourself about whether we are "Christians" or not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPQR4UlXqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEuvNbyBQow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brCtfsq2gx4&feature=related
From a current Mormon Apostle (Jeffry R. Holland) on this topic:
It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7
We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephenâ€â€to name just four.
With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.â€Â9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.â€Â10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] . . . seen and hated both me and my Father.â€Â11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.â€Â12 “My father is greater than I.â€Â13
To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from meâ€Â14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken meâ€Â?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus . . . being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.â€Â16
Oh! Johnzon, the misguided patritot, is back. Welcome.
"My religion is superior to yours"............LOL
"I know the universal truths of the universe, you dont"...........LOL
"God talks to me, not you".....LOL
The concept of the holy trinity was formally adopted by the christian church in 325 AD during the Council of Nicaea, a meeting called by the roman Emperor Constantine. He wanted to finally resolve disputes among church leaders at the time regarding the nature of God and Jesus Christ. The Council settled on the concept of the holy trinity as followed by evangelicals today. However, the doctrine of a literal God the Father whose son was Jesus Christ was widely followed in the early christian church until AD 325 but officially replaced by the concept of the trinity after the meeting at Nicea. The Mormons believe they are merely holding to the concept widely followed during the earliest christians. Call us a sect, but if we are a sect, please don't fault us for following what we join ourselves to the faith of Christians during the first and second centuries after Christ.
What do Mormons believe about Jesus Christ? Ask the Mormons, not the angry priests who are trying to attack Mormonism:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/
The "trinity" as defined in "Christianity" is nothing more than a man-made compromise of opinion (i.e. research the Nicean Creed). On the other hand, Joseph Smith and the Mormons today learned of the truth nature of the Trinity when Joseph saw God and Jesus together- and they were separate beings. Therefore, it all rests on the Character of Joseph Smith- was a he a liar or a true Prophet? If he was a liar, then Mormonism is indeed a cult. But, is there a chance that he wasn't a liar? That he was what he says he was? Though I'm but one voice, it's my witness to the Christian world that Joseph Smith was indeed a true Prophet. Joseph Smith was a weak, uneducated young boy when his prayer was answered about which Church was true: He was confused because, like today, all of the "Christian" churches held different doctrines based on the same bible. The Church restored to the earth by Jesus Christ himself contains all of the truth possessed by the Christian world and then some, and it does NOT contain any false sectarian notions, such as the Trinity as conceptualized by admittedly confused theologians trying to keep a church together. As Mormons, we don't boast or brag about it, but we have been commissioned by the Lord Himself to spread this message and we make great sacrifices to get it out. And, as I said before, it's either true or false. We don't seek to force anyone to see things our way. However, we do plan to declare it to the whole world and give the whole world a chance to listen. It's not a reason to persecute us. Before you do what Paul did before learning the truth of Jesus Christ (he persecuted the Saints), consider learning from his example and researching the facts first- from sources other than Mormonism's enemies. This way, you won't have any regrets. And who are the Mormons' enemies? Well, it seems to be primarily those who are losing money because of the rapid growth of Mormonism that feel most threatened and therefore feel it necessary to attack Mormonism...
The Jesus Christ of Mormonism
http://www.mrm.org/topics/jesus-christ
It is not up to me to say who is a Christian and who is not. Jesus knows those who belong to him. Usually I will ask "who do you say Jesus is" and if they answer "he is the Christ the son of the living God" its settled. This is what Peter answered when asked by Jesus and Jesus told him he was blessed for his Father had revealed it to him. It is true of every born again believer for it must be revealed by the father who Jesus is.