Updated 11:59 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Society|Fri, May. 29 2009 03:50 PM EDT

Federal Lawsuit Against Prop. 8 Comes More Quickly Than Expected

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

In a bid to face off against the nation's top two litigators, Christian legal firm Alliance Defense Fund filed a motion on Thursday to intervene against another lawsuit challenging Proposition 8.

  • proposition 8
    (Photo: AP / Damian Dovarganes)
    Attorneys Theodore B. Olson, left, and David Boies, right, announce a federal court challenge to Proposition 8 during a news conference in Los Angeles on Wednesday, May 27, 2009. The suit calls for an injunction against Proposition 8 until the case is resolved, which would immediately reinstate marriage rights for same sex couples.

Just coming out of an earlier court challenge with a win, ADF attorneys have wasted no time as they continue to defend California's constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.

"We seek again to vigorously defend the definition of marriage that has existed since the founding of this state, that has been affirmed by the people, and that has been upheld by the courts," said Andrew Pugno, general counsel of ProtectMarriage.com and an ADF-allied attorney.

On Tuesday, California's Supreme Court ruled to uphold Proposition 8 – which was passed by 52 percent of voters last November. The justices said the amendment was neither an illegal constitutional revision by the people nor unconstitutional.

At the same time, the court kept intact the 18,000 same-sex marriages that took place before the November vote.

Top litigators Theodore B. Olson and David Boies – who represented the opposing sides of the Bush v. Gore case in 2000 – filed a lawsuit in federal court on behalf of one gay couple and one lesbian couple, arguing that Proposition 8 violates the U.S. Constitution's guarantees of equal protection and due process of the law.

Responding to the plaintiffs' arguments, Family Research Council president Tony Perkins said, "Everyone has an equal right to marry in this country, but no one has an unlimited right to marry 'the person of their choice'" such as a child, a close blood relative or a person who is already married.

The lawsuit was filed last Friday, days before the ruling was issued, and is not an appeal of the state high court decision. Rather, it is a direct challenge to the amendment.

"This is a federal question," Olson told The Associated Press. "This is about the rights of individuals to be treated equally and not be stigmatized."

Some gay rights groups, however, believe taking the gay marriage issue to federal court would be premature at this time and risky.

The American Civil Liberties Union, Human Rights Campaign and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, among others, released a statement this week saying "without more groundwork, the U.S. Supreme Court likely is not yet ready to rule that same-sex couples cannot be barred from marriage."

The groups say they need to build "more public support" in individual states and head to the ballot box before taking the issue to federal courts.

"The history is pretty clear: the U.S. Supreme Court typically does not get too far ahead of either public opinion or the law in the majority of states," the groups state, adding that a loss in the federal court could set them back.

According to the latest national survey, the majority of Americans remain opposed to legalizing same-sex marriage. The Gallup Poll revealed this week that 57 percent of Americans say gay and lesbian marriages should not be legal.

The conservative group FRC was also surprised by the federal lawsuit.

"While FRC and our allies have been prepared to wage this war, none of us expected the battle to arrive on the national stage so quickly,” Perkins said.

The conservative leader believes even if this case, Perry v. Schwarzenegger, becomes the "Roe v. Wade of marriage," there still would be no resolution to the debate.

"As with abortion, the Supreme Court's involvement would only make the issue more explosive," he noted.

"As such, it's time for the far Left to stop asking judges to redefine our most fundamental social institution and leave the decision of marriage where it belongs – in the hands of the American people."

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  • Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Federal judge tosses out the "procreation requirement" as an argument for marriage cites his prior marriage of two elderly people who he married,as part of the rationale in his ruling.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gay-marriage15-2009oct15,0,5459107.story?track=rss

    "
    During the hearing, Charles Cooper, representing the Proposition 8 campaign, argued that marriage historically has been reserved for unions between a man and a woman because only opposite-sex couples can procreate "naturally."

    Walker, however, noted that not all married couples can procreate.

    "Just last month," Walker said, "I performed a wedding in which the groom was 95 and the bride was 83. I did not demand that they prove they would engage in procreation."

    Looks like you lost another argument against same sex marriage! Lets see last time I asked folks here everyone against it said they only had religious reasons and no secular reasons against it.

    TFR

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Hey, wait a minute? How can Sola Scriptura support "pro gay marriage" and "no pro gay marriage. These seem like opposite positions? Whose Holy Spirit is right this time?

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "DP, wear and tear on the bones for one, carbon dating, size, shape, etc. Archaeologists can tell quite a bit."

    Prophet doesn't believe in "carbon dating." Scripture please?

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:50 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " It was also corny of Prophet to ask me why I didn't answer ..."

    Nothing new here. That's the way she is.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:48 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ""the bones of a 100 year old person are visibly more deteriorated than those of a 30 year old."


    Not always; some little deterioration at all.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:17 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "the bones of a 100 year old person are visibly more deteriorated than those of a 30 year old. "

    After a 1000 years in the ground it would be interesting to see how much difference could actually be seen.

    As for corny...he who has an ear let him hear....

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "*eye roll* back to intelligent conversation please?"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Still waiting for you to have one.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:55 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    DP, no matter how well you take care of your body, the bones of a 100 year old person are visibly more deteriorated than those of a 30 year old. It was also corny of Prophet to ask me why I didn't answer him in the other forum. That's behavior my children exhibit.

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:20 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "No need to stalk me. "

    That was corny....

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "wear and tear on the bones for one, carbon dating, size, shape, etc. "

    first, a lazy person that lives to be 100 would appear to have the same lifespan as an active person...say 30 based on wear and tear. Carbon dating went out with disco. Scientists have determined it is not accurate (and we're not talking about the creationists here). Size, shape? When it comes to someone like me...yeh, good luck with that!


    I hope they do a good job with the remodel. People don't understand how important the visual is to special needs children. Bright, cheerful and sunny works really well. One of the middle schools here has their self-contained in a portable. I had a meeting in there once. The desks had to sit at different angles in order to sit level on the floor (which had water damage and had humps all through it) along with paneling missing on the wall with the insulation exposed and you could see the mold. They didn't understand why they had behavior problems in that room....

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:22 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    *eye roll* back to intelligent conversation please?

  • Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Stalking you? Well, that's a flat out lie. I thought you didn't lie.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:51 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    There's an answer waiting for you. No need to stalk me.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:54 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    Mike

    Did you choose to ignore my question on http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090521/why-homosexual-behavior-is-more-like-consensual-incest-and-polyamory-than-race-or-gender-part-1/index.html?

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:14 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    DP, wear and tear on the bones for one, carbon dating, size, shape, etc. Archaeologists can tell quite a bit. My students graduate Friday, then next week is time to pack up the room so they can remodel a bit (new tile floors, supposedly a new bathroom, but we'll see how much they can actually do over the summer!)

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 4

    "seeing as how we've never found the bones of any creature that would suggest it lived to be 1000 years old, no, I would not believe. "

    I was unaware that we had a method of telling how long someone lived after reaching adulthood. Do tell....


    Less than 4 days and counting... "schools...out, for, summer...."

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:19 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    mathetes, seeing as how we've never found the bones of any creature that would suggest it lived to be 1000 years old, no, I would not believe.

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:20 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    Mike,
    "Right, and in history is there any record of a man who lived to be a few hundred years old, despite the fact that it defied odds even for our time?"

    Yes, the non-biblial Sumerian kings list shows that before the flood people lived to about 1000 years old, with lifespans dropping rapidly after the flood as they did in Genesis.

    "Where do they think the ark landed, and why does he believe we haven't found it yet."

    I believe there's an expedition this summer to Mt Ararat, the 1st in years to receive Turkish approval.

    "How did Noah get all the animals on board?"

    The Bible says God brought to Noah the animals He wanted of each "kind" not each species.

    "Where any eaten due to predator/prey relations, or were they given a mild sedative for the trip?"

    They were kept in separate pens: the Heb. word is literally "nests."

    But honestly, even if an large boat were found this summer, would you believe, or would you find some other explanation?

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:10 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    ummm Right, and what do those questions have to do with Gay marriage in the Days of Noah?

    Mike="I have heard the other time gay marriage was allowed was right before the flood.." There is no support for that "

    Please see again: Gay marriage, Days of Noah= Babylonian Talmud Google search result 105,000

    I'm just suggesting that you do some research before you resort to calling people, "ignorant, moron, liar, horrible Christian".

    My question, Why so quick to change the subject?

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:57 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Right, and in history is there any record of a man who lived to be a few hundred years old, despite the fact that it defied odds even for our time? Where do they think the ark landed, and why does he believe we haven't found it yet. How did Noah get all the animals on board? Where any eaten due to predator/prey relations, or were they given a mild sedative for the trip?

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:59 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Gay marriage, Days of Noah Google search result 105,000

    Jeffrey Satinover, who holds an M.D. from Princeton and doctorates from Yale, MIT and Harvard, was on my radio program one day and I asked him about where we are in history. He explained that according to the Babylonian Talmud, the book of rabbis interpretation of the scriptures 1,000 years before Christ, there was only one time in history that reflects where we are right now. There was only one time in history, according to these writings, where men were given in marriage to men, and women given in marriage to women.

    Want to venture a guess as to when? No, it was not in Sodom and Gomorrah, although that was my guess. Homosexuality was rampant there, of course, but according to the Talmud, not homosexual marriage. What about ancient Greece? Rome? No. Babylon? No again. The one time in history when homosexual marriage was practiced was, during the days of Noah.


    http://gcmwatch.wordpress.com/2008/06/24/gay-marriage-the-days-of-noah-return/

  • Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:35 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    Delight, you wonder why I call you ignorant! You very clearly and purposefully are misinterpreting the hate crimes legislation, then to throw something out like "I have heard the other time gay marriage was allowed was right before the flood.." There is no support for that, not even in the Bible! It is so typical to try and compare the gay movement to the Nazi movement in some obscure way. Wake up and realize you are frantically scraping the bottom of the barrel for a grain of sand to stand on, and all it does is make you a liar and look like a horrible Christian. If you have truth, stand firmly on that. Stop making this up as you go.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:46 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    "DP, being afraid of a judge twisting the law isn't enough reason to not pass it when the good it will do far outweighs any bad."

    Yeah, just what we need...more laws. In Nazi Germany over 4000 new laws were passed between 1932 and 1939. Sounds a lot like what's going on here in the US now. New laws always better? Ha.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    From what I understand DP, hate crimes bills will allow for the victim to determine the motivation behind a crime. It also sets apart particular special rights for a special class of people; making homosexuality a sacred cow. It will cost lots of money in litigation to determine the correct language and applications. And will begin the criminalization of Christianity, look at what is happening to pasors in Cananda and Sweden who speak against homosexuality.

    I have heard that the only other time in history where gays were allowed to be married was right before the flood in Noah's day. I find it interesting that the Lord will return in days like the "days of Noah". Either way, this will not last as wicked nations always fall; Greece, and Rome. The US is just about there with the economic crisis, 12 trillion dollar debt, big expensive, far reaching government and unjust courts.
    Too bad these cannot look beyond their selfish agendas and really see what is going on and perhaps repent?

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:13 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "being afraid of a judge twisting the law isn't enough reason to not pass it when the good it will do far outweighs any bad. "

    The problem is that in reality it won't do that much good. Take IDEA. I just got a response back from OCR one one complaint that sited a 20+ year old case that said that any progress by the student = FAPE. Yet, IDEA has said for almost a decade that:

    "(c) Children advancing from grade to
    grade. (1) Each State must ensure that
    FAPE is available to any individual
    child with a disability who needs
    special education and related services,
    even though the child has not failed or
    been retained in a course or grade, and
    is advancing from grade to grade."

    The hate crimes law as it sits need quite a few changes in order to keep it from being used as a weapon against those it is intended to protect. It has been the haste of this administration that has created quite a few problems. How many times have you told a student "slow down and work through the problem"?

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:05 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    DP, being afraid of a judge twisting the law isn't enough reason to not pass it when the good it will do far outweighs any bad.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:42 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "there are very clear definitions of bullying and very clear definitions of hate crimes. Stop trying to make them seem so gray. "

    It is my experience that the lawyers and the courts will make many areas seem so grey. That is what the problem is. The assumption that the law as written is a good thing is based on the assumption that our court system is not broken. It only takes one wacky judge to take the law to a level far above what it is written and there is plenty of case law to back this statement up.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:59 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    DP, there are very clear definitions of bullying and very clear definitions of hate crimes. Stop trying to make them seem so gray.

    Delight, grow up.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Right on DP, he called me an ignorant moron.
    Calling people names sure works to make HIS point, huh.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "what I'm doing is not bullying, but nice stretch. "

    That is a violation of the concept of the hate crimes law. If someone perceives you as bullying then it is. This is why I have a problem with the hate crimes law as written.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:29 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Like I said, what I'm doing is not bullying, but nice stretch. Tell me, do your coworkers know you try to slander others through outlandish stories?

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    In other words, you like to keep your bullying a secret from your students and at the same time admonish them not to bully others. Got it. We used to call this hypocrisy but you may have a whole other word for it.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:58 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    That most certainly has not been proven, but nice try. I am not bullying anyone, but I am certainly calling you out. My kindergartners' opinion of me ends at the classroom. My personal life is absolutely nonconsequential.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "You are trying to bring up irrelevant questions like what my kindergartners would think, honestly?!?"

    And why would it be irrelevant to consider what your kindergartners might think of your bullying behavior on these posts? I am only aware of one other poster that gets down and dirty like you do, does this justify your behavior because he does? "Honestly?!?"

    My point which you are trying to obfusicate is that homosexuality is proven by your own pro-gay sources not to be an immutable characteristic. Because homosexuality is not immutable as skin color, there are no grounds to consider allowing for special civil rights because "immutable traits" are the current criteria for determining who is entitled to special rights.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:53 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    Thanks for the apology, and absolutely on both sides of the issue there are doctors who are a bit slap happy to get results and their tests aren't exactly reliable.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    mike85, the reason I cited that was because of your response to delight with regards to Spitzer citing that he da found 200 examples of homosexuals who were capable of changing their sexual orientation and you made a point of the size of the sample group and I shared in the twin study the sample group was even smaller. So if I mistakenly made the assumption you did refer to the twin study, then my apology but the point about the size of the sample group is still valid to your point to delight.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:14 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Delight, quit the pious nonsense, you know perfectly well there are many on here who use all kinds of names or make offensive comments about the pro-gay marriage crowd on this website. You are trying to engage in a character debate to take the focus off the fact that YOU have no argument, not me. You are trying to bring up irrelevant questions like what my kindergartners would think, honestly?!? Learn to have an adult discussion buddy.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Now, now, Mike before you can be speak out against bullies (as you have on other posts), you need to take a look at just how you bully people who try to point you to the truth. You use the words "ignorance" and "moron", "pathetic" and other such derogatory terms. No one here calls you and other homosexuals schoolyard names, why do you think you can do it? And what would your kindergardeners think of your conduct here on these posts? You have no argument so you resort to name calling just like the schoolyard bully and it shows that not only your argument but your character to be weak.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:36 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    You have an interpretation of scripture so you can justify your ignorance.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    >>"when all else fails, make a blanket statement like "God says its so." In your interpretation maybe, but not mine, so you'll have to come at me with more than that."<<

    Nothing has failed. God will say the same thing to you and you will what...give Him the lastest scientific study?
    I don't think so.
    You have an "interpretation" of Scripture so you can justify your sin. I don't need an interpretation of the clear warnings in Scripture as I look for no justification to sin.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I actually have never cited that study, nor were we talking about it, but thanks for the comment out of left field Believer!

    Delight, ah, when all else fails, make a blanket statement like "God says its so." In your interpretation maybe, but not mine, so you'll have to come at me with more than that.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Get real Mike, homosexuality is a sin against God.
    God doesn't follow the latest scientific trends to determine what is sin, it's already been determined and man can have all the biased opinions in the world, opinions won't save him.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    mike85, get real, take a look at how many twins were used in the infamous "Gay Twins Study" and you will find that the sample group was a very small number and yet many pro-homosexuals have no problem citing this study as proof people are born homosexual.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:37 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Haha, Delight, get real! Coretta Scott King, the cofounder of the civil rights movement's opinion does not matter, but her niece's does? What a pathetic attempt at reason! A little biased, don't you think? No one is seeking to criminalize morons (oops, I mean evangelicals) for speaking their mind, that is simply ignorant rhetoric that does not understand hate crime legislation. As far as Spitzer, he has also gone on record saying not everyone can change, and the fact that he could only find 200 people (college undergrads can find a bigger study population than that) speaks volumes. Stop trying to make the evidence something other than it is. It is very clear that sexual orientation is not something changeable, or else you could very easily "choose" to be gay.

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Endnote; if you don't like the Narth website as a source, just "google" Dr Robert Spitzer, this has been widely reported by many other sites as well.

    Science isn't immutable either, you just can't depend on anything "scientific" for your opinion, it changes everyday....

    God is never changing and He's very dependable.
    (Hebrews 13:8)

  • Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    David Hart
    As much as you dislike admitting that homosexuality is a changeable trait and not equal to the civil rights battle for those of color still disqualifies it for special rights, even if "rare".

    You might want to check your source here on Spitzer...he's changed his mind from his earlier findings. He says in part:

    "Like most psychiatrists," says Dr. Spitzer, "I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted--but that no one could really change their sexual orientation. I now believe that's untrue--some people can and do change."

    Further, he states; "Contrary to conventioned wisdom," Spitzer concluded, "some highly motivated individuals, using a variety of change efforts, can make substantial change in multiple indicators of sexual orientation, and achieve good heterosexual functioning."

    And he did come up with 200 former homosexuals to study;

    http://www.narth.com/docs/spitzer3.html

  • Sun May 31, 2009 11:42 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Martin Luther King's daughter once said: "I've met a lot of ex-gays, I have yet to meet an ex-black."

    ===============================================
    In the entire USA, there might be 1,200 people out of some 30 million gays and lesbians who claim to have changed their sexual orientation for any length of time. Even then. most are still gay but have forced themselves to either be celibate or pursue opposite sex relationships - usually with other "ex" gays.

    As Spitzer has written. "Change is possible but it is extremely rare." That is why none of the ex gay ministries have ever published independently reviewed data. In fact, Spitzer claimed that it was impossible to come up with 200 participants for his study.

  • Sun May 31, 2009 10:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    Mike,

    It's not so much who said what, it is the truthfulness of the statement that is important:

    Martin Luther King Jr.'s niece, Alveta Scott King, expressed the difference when she said;

    "While I have met many former homosexuals, I have yet to meet a former black."

    So it doesn't much matter what Corella Scott King's opinion is. Her niece hammered the nail on the head; civil rights only pertain to those with unchangeable traits like skin color.

    Why don't we just stick to the immutable traits when determining a civil rights issue?
    That would be the right thing to do.

    I personally do not have a problem with homosexuals as individuals. But I will stand up and fight when the homosexual activist and lobbyists seek to criminalize Christianity by imposing biased "hate" crimes bills to silence Christians and elevate a tendency over an immutable trait to gain special rights. It is wrong and obviously so, and if this pro gay trend continues it will cost this country millions in litigation.

  • Sun May 31, 2009 10:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    mike85, and the difference is?

  • Sun May 31, 2009 9:44 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    They upheld the constitution, they did not support Prop H8.

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