Updated 12:47 pm.EST, Sun November 22, 2009

Church|Wed, Jun. 03 2009 08:00 AM EDT

Christian Clergy Rally on Opposite Sides of Gay Marriage Debate

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Less than a week after a group of clergy and Christians asked for a referendum to keep same-sex marriages from being recognized in the nation's capital, another coalition of clergy has declared support for "marriage equality."

"We declare that our faith calls us to affirm marriage equality for loving, same-sex couples," said the Rev. Dennis Wiley, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church, at a gathering on Tuesday, according to The Washington Post.

Wiley is among more than 100 clergy from various faiths who launched a declaration, affirming same-sex marriage as "holy and good."

"Our religious traditions and scriptures teach us that wherever love is present, God is also present," the coalition, called D.C. Clergy United for Marriage and Equality, states. "We therefore affirm the right of loving same-gender couples to enter into such relationships on an equal basis with loving heterosexual couples."

Last month, the Washington, D.C. Council voted 12-1 to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states. The legislation heads to Congress for approval and some council members are expected to introduce a bill to allow gays and lesbians to marry in the District.

In stark contrast to the interfaith group, conservative clergy have made public cries, committing themselves to fight any attempts to redefine marriage.

The Stand 4 Marriage D.C. clergy, who include Bishop Harry R. Jackson, Jr., of Hope Christian Church, believe homosexual behavior is not in line with Scripture.

In a letter to Mayor Adrian Fenty and the city council last month, the conservative coalition reminded them that homes without a mother and a father are often broken and that traditional marriages and families are "happier, healthier, and more prosperous."

They also argued that the same-sex marriage proponents' claim that marriage is an issue of civil rights is "offensive to those of us who have been standing up for true civil rights all our lives."

"Racial discrimination has always been not only wrong but irrational, because race is a characteristic which is inborn, involuntary, immutable, innocuous, and in the Constitution. None of those criteria apply to the choice to engage in homosexual relationships," they stated.

The division among Christian clergy on the marriage issue is seen across the nation as more states debate same-sex marriage bills.

In southern California, where the state Supreme Court recently upheld a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, Christian leaders on both sides of the debate have become increasingly vocal and active.

On Monday, religious leaders in San Diego held an interfaith service to voice their support for same-sex marriage while lamenting the high court's ruling.

The day before, Christians from several San Diego megachurches and pro-family organizations celebrated the court's ruling on Proposition 8 but were reminded that the battle wasn't over.

Cautioning the crowd not to let their guard down, Brad Dacus of the Pacific Justice Institute told them to be ready for ongoing battles on marriage.

Gay and lesbian couples have filed lawsuits challenging the constitutionality of Proposition 8 as well as the federal Defense of Marriage Act.

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  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:31 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show R4Him - you say, "We must remember: The homosexual community used to be located in the dark scuzzy recesses of our society. They since have organized and become large and powerful - often on the backs of tax payer money. Now they are looking to rid any opposition to their agenda - which is to force their lifestyle down your throat." Taking a long-term mega-historical view, looking back to the 2 Century BC to the mid-4th Century and forward you could easily replace "Homosexual" with "Christian" I think you may be able to quote your sect's dogma with great alacrity but lack a fundamental background in Ancient and Medieval political theory and social history. You might try reading some new books on old subjects to broaden your consciousness. hide

  • Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet - I promise... no strange outfits! :)

  • Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:36 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    gnosticgirl,

    Hahahaha...just please tell me you're not going to wear a gaudy outfit like she did. LOL.

  • Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:39 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Weekender - you need not worry about it - what is between God and I is between God and I. :) And we have things sorted out. Thanks! :)

    Prophet - "shhh" yes, but there needs to be a revival! lol

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:56 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    I'm afraid she can imagine all the wonders of the greatest superhero, and still fall short of the glory of God.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Aint nothing can work on politicians.

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The lasso of truth."

    I wonder if it's powerful enough to work on politicians....

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The lasso of truth. What a great idea! LOL But didn't Wonder Woman have that?

  • Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet - You know... I was thinking about a cape or maybe a mask. Ooooh I could get a 'lasso of truth' :) It would save a lot of time if one could just lasso the truth out of things! :) Anyway - all of you all have a great night.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 11:04 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "I think it just took me by surprise. "

    Think nothing more of it. I've been on this board for quite some time and NOTHING surprises me anymore!!! We had someone for a while that would just go through and flag out 6-8 posts in a row just to mess up the flow of conversation. Not quite sure why. Welcome to the world of CP. I look forward to your future posts.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:49 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I will say, though, that your screen name reminds me of something out of a superhero comic book. LOL.
    Duh duh duh! It's gnosticgirl! yaaaaay. LOL I'm just teasing you. But everytime I see your name it reminds me of Elastigirl on "The Incredibles". LOL

    And thanks for being mature in your comments. It makes discussions with you more enjoyable.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Prophet - Thank you for being so kind. I will continue to be here. I find I have learned a lot and I hope at the very least I can offer a different perspective if for no other reason than opening some doors or windows to understanding. Like I said in reply to DP.... It just totally took me by surprise.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    DP - You are correct and I thank you for reminding me. I did jump the gun a bit... I think it just took me by surprise. And I am human... and got a bit persnickety about it. I apologize for automatically assuming things I really have know knowledge about. :)

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer - Thank you. And you are right, thanks for reminding me that it very well could have been an accident. :)

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ggirl as with several other Christian posters I too am disappointed with someone flagging your post since I've never found any of your posts offensive in anyway, but someone may have accidently done it as I did on several occasions when I first started posting on CP.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:08 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 8

    Gnosticgirl: As you can see, the Christians here are more tolerant than others. Please don't blame the unChristian behavior on us, when most of that comes from the non-believers. If you're shocked by unChristian behavior on this site, realize that it occurs because non-Christians are allowed to post (and flag) here.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    gnosticgirl,

    I agree with Daniel Paul that there was no reason for you to be flagged. It is also true that those on here who have been posting for a long time do have a high tolerance for opposing opinions. I have only flagged others a couple times, and that was for using vulgar language. I hope that you will continue to post.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:50 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "I am not sure why my post was flagged as inappropriate. But such unchristian maneuvers will not affect my being here. "

    I'm not sure why it was flagged either. Mine get flagged to (much to even to the surprise of some people on the other side of the issues from me).

    Keep in mind there are those who flag for any or no reason. You will find the major posters on the Christian side are opposed to flagging as long as it's not flat vulgar! I've had some pretty heafty name calling lobbed at me and I don't even flag that. I'm still yet to flag anyone and I have never seen ANYTHING you've posted that deserves to be flagged.

    I would ask two things: 1) don't take it personally and 2) don't assume one of the Christian folks did it (we're the ones who have been asking CP to modify the board to show who flagged the post).

    In all actuality, I keep copies of my posts in Notebook so I can repost when they get flagged.

  • Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:26 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    I am not sure why my post was flagged as inappropriate. But such unchristian maneuvers will not affect my being here. I am appalled at the person who did not have the courage to address what I wrote, but instead decided to negate what I wrote. Since even I cannot go back and see what was written, I will have to go from memory. But I will address it with CP. Anyway, I believe I was speaking to the religious freedom, and in my state, some religions cannot practice what they feel they should be able to practice without threat of fines or jail time (same-sex marriage). So while I and many others would fight for a christian's right to worship and believe as they will, I have little faith that the same courtesy would be extended in the other direction.

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    I submit that the "Christian clergy" only rallies on one side of the gay marriage debate, the side described by Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6.

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:20 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    u4, my thought is that it would be limited to two consenting adults living in the same household who are each others primary caregiver regardless of their sexual orientation, gender, or sexual intentions. And it would afford them the same legal rights and benefits married heterosexual couples receive today.

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:09 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Jehovahnissi » God have mercy on you.. was that directed at me? Thanks but No Thanks - hide

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:07 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Believer - Yes you have the point - GENDER Neutral Domestic Partnership agreements. The Civil Union License or whatever name. The ONLY state-issue documents that recognize partnership. That would be the only legal, recognized in civil court, tax-break-getting benefit deserving arrangement. Churches can still have a ceremony call Holy Matrimony [or indentured servitude or whatever] and make up rules for whomever. Not anyone can just go to a church and demand a dip in the water, y'all have some sort of test to pass for that don't you? hide

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Yes, Christian Americans have the right to believe what they wish, worship how they wish.... etc. But Pagan Americans do as well, so do Hindu Americans and Buddhist Americans and Atheist Americans. Civil Law should not be about religion - and since the government has made marriage licenses a civil thing, then all citizens should have a right to get married and have a marriage license. What bothers me here, is it is ok for Christians to get their way, but when the law prohibits and discriminates against another religion - I hear nothing. This is quite a shame. What it says to me is that because I am not Christian, I should be fined or jailed for following my faith? Doesn't this same thing happen to Christian's in other countries? Yet it is allowed to happen here with other religions. It really is a shame. hide

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "God have mercy on you.."

    He surely needs it.

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    u4, how about we go to domestic partnerships only and leave the marriage issue in the hands of the churches?

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:11 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Here is what Jesus said about calling people fools:

    But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.


    I often notice people like to cite the Old Testament and Pauline letters way more than the Gospels. This seems odd to me.

  • Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:39 am Agree: 10   Disagree: 5

    Flagged as inappropriate. show In America, you need a reason other than 4th century interpretations of Bronze Age myths to make law for all citizens. At a bare minimum 20% of the nation's residents do NOT ascribe to the same belief system as the resistors of uni-sex unions recognition by CIVIL law.. How can you possibly suggest that imposing your values on another in this manner, on this subject, in a secular world, be anything but bigotry? Do you not see how you are the same as Afghan villagers that stone women to death for talking to men? 2. I favor the end to MARRIAGE for all. Replace the state-sanctioned relationship with a CIVIL UNIT license or something the bestows all the privileges and benefits that the society uses to encourage this joining together but has NO Sacred meaning,... "we join together this couple in CIVIL UNION under the authority of the State of Whatever" - the Marriage in the eye's of your Supreme Being is a matter for your faith's judgment and a separate optional ceremony as it is in Europe. Your can have your own rules to join your club. You would have to accept that there might be a faith unit that declines to recognize "opposite marriage" too. Additional proof is that only a CIVIL COURT can dissolve a marriage, church has no say. 3. For the children? 40% of births are OUT OF WEDLOCK - what the heck does same-sex marriage have to do with that? Marriage like Baptism is a Religious Ceremony. You don't have to be baptized to get a Birth Certificate? I accept your right to be repulsed and offended, but that's not enough to make laws to restrict citizen's right to the Pursuit of Happiness. hide

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:21 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 8

    "The real preversion is hatred in the name of God. "

    It is truely a preverstion for those to hate God's ways in the name of God. His way as spoken by Jesus was one man and one woman. Yet, there are those who hate that way in the name of God. That's just plain psyco....

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:10 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 4

    Besides, there is no hatred here. Are you the little boy/girl who would get angry with you parent when they told you that you couldn't do something that you really wanted to do? Were you the one that screamed at them as a teenager "Why do you hate me? You're so mean!".
    Were you the one who couldn't differentiate between hate and discipline?


    I think so.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:20 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 5

    rhi,

    The real perversion is taking the things of God and making them dishonorable.

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:30 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 4

    Jehovahnissi

    It's so good to hear some doctrinal sanity out there!

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:02 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    rhi, hatred for others, yes, hatred for sin, no!!!

  • Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:43 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show prophet The real preversion is hatred in the name of God. hide

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

    "We declare that our faith calls us to affirm marriage equality for loving, same-sex couples,"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    For all the non-Christians out there...feel free to replace "same-sex couples" with whatever sexual perversion you desire. They're all the same.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 4

    "You think freedom of religion means you can do whatever it is you please and just claim its because you're a Christian."

    No, freedom of religion means we are allowed to believe the Bible as written. That is what a Christian does.


    " If the law says its discriminatory to rent out your property to only certain people, then it is against the law to discriminate."

    The law says it's discriminatory to employ based on religion...unless you are a religious organization. For example, the Bible college I worked for IS allowed to only hire Christians. Therefore, "discrimination" as such is permitted where religion is in play.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "The church was on public property and so yes, it violated the town's non-discrimination laws."

    1st that would violate separtation of church and state for a church to be on public land. Second, the story was right here in CP and it was the church's campgrounds. Third, no law can exist that keeps that church from the free exercise there of so the law was unconstitutional...unless of course Christians are second class citizens....

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:42 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    mike85, you and others have been claiming all along that same-sex marriage laws would not impact Christians or churches and yet a church is being told they must allow for a same-sex marriage event to be held on their property regardless of their view of same-sex marriage.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:17 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    No, believer, it doesn't. You think freedom of religion means you can do whatever it is you please and just claim its because you're a Christian. If the law says its discriminatory to rent out your property to only certain people, then it is against the law to discriminate. If you don't want that to happen, then follow the law. Its very simple, and it isn't infringing on anything.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

    mike85, your own post proves that if same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land it will infringe upon the rights of Christians and churches who believe that same-sex marriage and the sexual practices of homosexuality are not of God!

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:55 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "..., but you cannot use freedom of religion to practice whatever you wish contrary to public laws."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And how quickly and easily those laws can change to make any aspect of religious freedom a crime.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:10 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    The church was on public property and so yes, it violated the town's non-discrimination laws. I don't know all the facts with the photographer or the doctor, but you cannot use freedom of religion to practice whatever you wish contrary to public laws (if that were the case, polygamy would be legal and you could kill an adulterous woman by stoning her, claiming religious freedom.)

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 6

    "Let's be clear. Gay people do not interfere with Christians' rights to live their life the way they wish and practice their faith."

    Please expain how sueing people because their religious beliefs does not interfere with their rights to live their life the way they wish and practice their faith. The doctor in CA even made a referal to a very good doctor! The Christian photographer who declined photographing a gay union was not the only photographer in the area! The Church camp ground was not the only place in the area. These people and group were targeted because of their faith. Their rights and money (for legal fees and fines) do not line up with your statement.

    Please clarify.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:12 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 5

    "You can practice whatever faith you want and you can live your life following whatever values you choose and attend whatever church you want and practice the faith of your choosing. Nobody is trying to deny you this. "

    The doctor in CA would take issue with you. Along with the photographer in AZ and the church camp ground in NJ (I think). Many law suits by gays to try to force Christians to act against their faith and pander to the pro-gay agenda.

    Eph 6:11-12 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."

    The pro-gay agenda is a wile of the devil. The devil's goal is for us to live outside of a right relationship with God. Homosexuality is just one of his many lies. Proof? There is no verse in the Bible that tells you how to be gay and in a right relationship at the same time.

  • Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:30 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 5

    sm, but God's Word is clear when it comes to marriage and sexual intimacy. God's original and only design for marriage is one man and one woman united as one for life and His original and only design for sexual intimacy is that it is reserved for the marriage bed of one man and one woman who are united as one in the sight of God for life through marriage, both same-sex marriage and any type of sexual intimacy, be it heterosexual or homosexual, that fall outside of marriage fall outside these designs and are therefore sin in the sight of God. As for your studies, there are just as many studies that say that one's sexual orientation is not biologically related, so the jury is still out as to what causes one's sexual orientation.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:14 pm Agree: 7   Disagree: 4

    Daniel Paul: You can practice whatever faith you want and you can live your life following whatever values you choose and attend whatever church you want and practice the faith of your choosing. Nobody is trying to deny you this. There is no agenda by gay people or anyone else to prevent you from doing so. Nobody said anything about going into a church and doing things in front of a pastor, so I don't know what point you were making there.

    The hypocrisy I mentioned was about mobilizing people to fight for legal opposition to rights for homosexuals, as if this particular (so-called) sin was somehow more egregious than the more acceptable ones commonly committed by heterosexuals. As I said, I don't see any political movement to fight marriage rights for fornicators, adulterers, or divorcees. You or your pastor may disapprove of these actions, and may preach about them in your church, but that is a far cry from trying to prevent people from having the legal right to divorce and remarry, for example.

    See now? Who has the agenda? And see the hypocrisy?

    Let's be clear. Gay people do not interfere with Christians' rights to live their life the way they wish and practice their faith. Christians are constantly trying to interfere with gay people's rights to live their life the way they want. It's only in response to this interference that you get gay people taking on churches and religions.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Any educated Christian would know that. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality. http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=10620&pid=805 http://www.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html http://www.christchapel.com/romans_inter.html http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/about/homosexuality.html http://www.gaychristian101.com/ Thats why Jesus never mentions it as well. There is nothing immoral, wrong, or sinful about being gay. Jesus, however, clearly states he HATES hypocrites. If you preach goodness, then promote hate and twist the words of the Bible, you are a hypocrite, and will be judged and sent to hell. Homosexuals will not go to hell, hypocrites will. This is very similar to the religious bigots of the past, where they took Bible passages to condone slavery, keep women down, and used Bible passages to claim blacks as curses who should be enslaved by the white man. People used God to claim that blacks marrying whites was unnatural, and not of God's will. hide

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show For those of you claiming homosexuality is a "lifestyle", that is a false and ignorant statement. Homosexuality is not a choice. Just like you don't choose the color of your skin, you cannot choose whom you are sexually attracted to. If you can, sorry, but you are not heterosexual, you are bi-sexual. Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. Most gay people will tell you its not a choice. Common sense will tell you its not a choice. While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological. http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html http://www.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2008/06/16/172/ There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. "Nurture" may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological. hide

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:35 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 3

    "is that drinking and driving causes non-discriminate carnage. "

    First, keep in mind that I am not in favor of people getting drunk let alone drinking and driving. With that said....

    The arguement put forth was that it is people who cannot hold their alchohol that cause the carnage. That the vast majority of drunk drivers never get into a wreck.

    Is it a stupid arguement? Yes. Still it is what the pro-drinking folks put forth.

    "All this fear, about how marriage of two people will effect every other marriage is just fear mongering. "

    Actually, no it's not. It is an assault on what I have the right to believe under the Constitution. Case and point is the doctor who lost the law suit because he didn't want to help a lesbian couple get married. The ruling was that his religious beliefs didn't matter. It has been made clear by the pro-gay camp and the court that Freedom of Religion (a founding principle of the Constitution) is second to gay rights.

    As a Christian American, I stand up against any threat to the Constitution. The pro-gay camp and some of the courts have proven the movement to be so. That lesbian couple could have accepted the referral and not attacked the man's religious beliefs. They targeted him, attacked him with a lawsuit and used a court to strip him of his Constituional right to conscience. It is the pro-gay agenda that has used fear and intimidation to get their own way and the people of CA said "ENOUGH!"

    What they do in their own bedrooms is their own business. What they do in public around my children is my business. Unless, of course, my right to my beliefs as an American are less important than a gay persons rights. This is the center of the issue.

  • Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:21 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Wiley is among more than 100 clergy from various faiths who launched a declaration, affirming same-sex marriage as "holy and good."

    ...launched a declaration?
    Now we need to hear from the clergy who support (and are actively involved in) Fornication and Adultery.

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