Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:07:14 pm ET

Church|Thu, Jul. 02 2009 12:02 PM EDT

Episcopal Leaders Prepare for Homosexuality Debates

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Episcopal Church leaders are scheduled to meet in a private session next week with the spiritual leader of the Anglican Communion.

Members of the Episcopal House of Deputies are expected to address homosexuality issues and how LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) members are involved in The Episcopal Church during the meeting with Archbishop of Canterbury Dr. Rowan Williams, according to the Episcopal News Service.

The Rev. Canon Michael Barlowe of the Diocese of California told the denomination's news service that the meeting will be set in the context of the "Listening Process," in which Anglicans worldwide are encouraged to listen to gay and lesbian persons and all sides of the homosexuality debate.

The meeting is taking place the same week of the 76th General Convention, The Episcopal Church's triennial legislative meeting.

Leaders at this year's convention, which takes place July 8-17 in Anaheim, Calif., will be considering resolutions that would allow the consecration of openly gay bishops. Some dioceses, or regional bodies, have asked the General Convention to repeal or retract resolution B033, which was approved in 2006.

B033 calls for restraint in ordaining bishops "whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church," mainly noncelibate homosexuals. It was passed amid calls by Anglican bishops overseas who were outraged after The Episcopal Church – the U.S. arm of Anglicanism – consecrated its first openly gay bishop, V. Gene Robinson, in 2003.

The Diocese of Newark argues that B033 was never intended to be permanent and that it was only passed to prevent further fractioning of the global Anglican Communion.

Episcopal head Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, however, told the Episcopal News Service that the she doesn't think revisiting B033 will be helpful.

She said she'd rather focus on where they are now.

"Far more productive, I think, to have the hard conversations involved in claiming our current position and identity," said Jefferts Schori, who has expressed support for homosexual ordination as well as the blessing of same-sex unions.

The General Convention comes months after the Anglican Consultative Council, a decision-making body of bishops, clergy and laity, reaffirmed the moratoria on the consecration of partnered gay bishops and the authorization of public rites blessing same-sex unions.

The Archbishop of the West Indies, the Most Rev. Drexel Gomez, warned the U.S. church against rescinding resolution B033 this year. Any pro-gay action, he said, would "imperil" the future of the Anglican Communion.

In addition to homosexual ordination, the Episcopal General Convention will also be considering resolutions calling for the development of rites for blessing same-gender relationships. The Diocese of Massachusetts is further calling on the legislative body to amend references in the national church's canon laws on marriage from "a man and a woman" to "two adults."

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  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:18 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Connect the dots: Secularism to liberalsim to humanism to atheism to gay marriage.

    The Episcopal Church bears such LITTLE resemblance to the "faith delivered only once to the saints" that seeing it as a Christians gathering one has to squint almost to closed eyes. But it does resemble MTV and HBO almost exactly like a wide-eyed stare.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Thanks believer! Hope you're doing well. Yes, it looks like a great improvement. Thanks to CP for the effort in working this out! hide

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    hman, where have you been hiding? Did you see what CP did to remedy the flagging problem?

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:17 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show danpat1_2000 wrote: "Henry Iyam I yam" An allusion to Yahweh? a prophecy of Popeye to come? hide

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:57 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Dan,

    Surely, you do not believe this: "angels picked up Mary's home in Nazareth and dropped it down in Loreto, Italy" . . . do you?

    This is nothing but folklore . . .

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:18 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    dan, sensationalism doesn't serve you well considering I was referring to many Christian scholars who do not buy into the unbiblical teaching of transubstantiation, but coming from a person who believes that some angels picked up Mary's home in Nazareth and dropped it down in Loreto, Italy, your feeble attempt to use sensationalism to avoid the real issue doesn't surprise me.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:08 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    dan, I'm not hung up on transubstantiation since it is not biblical and Christ says in John 6:63 when explaining His teaching on eating and drinking of His flesh and blood when He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    The idea of anything but Scriptures opens it up to false doctrines. LDS uses the same excuses that the Catholic do. Probably because they are no different...

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Believer: "Christ also said we're to hate our parents, self, spouses and so on, do you? Christ also said if one's eye causes them to sin their to pluck it out, have you? I'm always amazed by people who ridicule those of us who believe the Word of God is literally God's Word and that those of us who do are saying we're to take everything in the Bible literally..."

    Nothing hard about it...you are right on this, wrong on others (the natural result of "individual interpretation of the Bible (Sola Scriptura), and why you are "amazed" SS forces people to look for verses which support "their preconceived ideas." The Bible for one has to be read as a whole and some are "parables" some on literal and some are analogies. That's why Jesus gave the Church the authority He did, St Peter and keys, whoever hears you hears Me...and I will be with you until the end of the Age..." No individual has this power, nor does any person have the right to start a "Christian Church, i.e., Knox, Luther, Henry Iyam I yam, etc., and proof is that these man-made organizations are all falling apart as we speak.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:57 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The funny thing is, that if scientists took the bread and wine that is given by the priest and did tests on it, they would find that it is just that....bread and wine.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Believer: "...a whole lot of wiser people than you and I who do not buy into transubstantiation,"

    (See prior post on Didymus and what Jesus thought of that mouse)

    And a lot wiser people" who also believe God is a myth; and a lot "of people who fit this description": (below)

    "...let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

    Today is a good instance of this as people, a lot wiser than you and me, celebrate Michael Jackson as a "god" some even seeing him in tea leaves.

    Don't get "locked" on Transubstantiation [this is from Metaphysics and encompasses, "essence," "substance," "accidental qualities,", et al [St Thomas Aquinas discusses this in detail but there is no one on this site capable of understanding him, including myself], anymore than St Augustine was told by the Angel ..."not to get "locked" on the "Trinity." Both are acts of faith. The former (Trans...) is a philosophical explanation of what happens and how this transformation can possibly happen, but not necessary for the belief which is as I said an act of "faith," and is complete in itself.

    The Catholic Church has always taught there is no conflict between faith and science (only one's difficulty in understanding them); both are from God's origin and therefore are "good," and complement each other.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    PART IV

    And St. Thérèse of Lisieux wrote to another Sister, â

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:26 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    PART II

    The Centurian:
    "Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed."

    ...never have I seen such faith not even in Israel...
    The bottom line is there are millions upon millions who have believed it for over two thousand years:

    Historically:
    St. Pius X said that â

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    PART I

    Believer: "us we are supposed to take this literally even though Christ says earlier that this is a spiritual concept as opposed to a fleshly concept."

    "IS" is "IS" and there is no other way to take it; yes, this is the same as Bill Clinton tried to change "IS" and he has been laughed at ever since. But that said, some concepts in Scripture are to be taken literally and some metaphorically. You take this as the latter because your "faith" is not strong enough (to believe it [yet]) since you do not believe Christ would be so generous to give us such a wonderful gift to enhance our spirituality; but the "leap of faith" necessary for the "Real Prescence" is the same as the faith you have in believing a man -Jesus- is the Son of God or that "there are three Persons in the Blessed Trinity, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." [St Augustine's stumbling block which kept him out of the Church for so long his "yes, Lord, not now - later,]"

    I pray that eventually you will be strong enough to enjoy Jesus' Body and His Blood" and never have to hear Him say (as did Peter ..."And immediately Jesus stretching forth his hand took hold of him, and said to him: O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?" And also, ...

    Didymus, who wasn't one of the more well known disciples, but he was popular enough to earn the nickname "Doubting Thomas." He was given this label because he simply did not believe that Jesus had risen from the dead (as much a leap as Jesus giving us His Body and Blood to consume) Deo Gratias, Deo Gratias, Deo Gratias. And Jesus shows us that He derives great pleasure in those who have such faith:

  • Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:54 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    dan, considering there are a whole lot of wiser people than you and I who do not buy into transubstantiation, I don't think they'd appreciate you equatting their view on this issue with the lies of Bill Clinton. That being said, Christ also said we're to hate our parents, self, spouses and so on, do you? Christ also said if one's eye causes them to sin their to pluck it out, have you? I'm always amazed by people who ridicule those of us who believe the Word of God is literally God's Word and that those of us who do are saying we're to take everything in the Bible literally, which we don't say in the first place. And then when we read a passage of scripture that is obviously not meant to be taken literally some of those same people, like you and msn, tell us we are supposed to take this literally even though Christ says earlier that this is a spiritual concept as opposed to a fleshly concept.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.


    Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

    Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    "Take, eat: accept of Christ as He is offered to you, receive the atonement, approve of it, consent to it, come up to the terms on which the benefit of it is proposed to you; submit to His grace and to His government. Believing on Christ is expressed by receiving him (Jn. 1:12), and feeding upon Him, Jn. 6:57, 58. Food will not nourish us uless it is fed upon: so must the doctrine of Christ.

    v28 ..For this is my blood of the New Testament...
    ..the red wine in the cup, was an emblem and representation of His precious blood, whereby was exhibited a new dispensation, or administration of the covenant of grace; and by which it was ratified and confirmed; and whereby all the blessings of it, such as peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life, come to the people of God:

    ....Which is shed for many, for the remission of sins;...
    that is, was very shortly to be shed, and since has been, for all the elect of God; for the many that were ordained to eternal life, and the many that were given to Christ, the many that are justified by him, and the many sons he will bring to glory: whereby the full forgiveness of all their sins was procured, in a way consistent with, and honourable to the justice of God; full satisfaction being made to the law of God, for all their transgressions.
    -------------------------------------------------------


    The New John Gill Exposition
    of the Entire Bible

    http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=026&verse=028

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Jhn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves."

    -----------------------------------------------------

    The Jews knew well that Leviticus 17:10-11 forbids the eating of blood. They should have understood that Jesus CHrist was not speaking of literally drinking the blood coursing through His body, yet in v. 52): " They strove among themselves; they whispered in each other's ears their dissatisfaction: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

    It has been misconstrued by the church of Rome for the support of their doctrine of transubstantiation. They, like these Jews here, understand it of a corporal and carnal eating of Christs body. The Lord's supper was not yet instituted, and therefore it could have no reference to that.

    It is a spiritual eating and drinking that is here spoken of, not a sacramental. What Jesus means is: "
    "He who accepts, appropriates and assimilates, and understands My sacrifice as the only ground of his salvation remains in Me and I in Him." This is why He adds, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood dwells in Me and I in Him." He is the living Word.

    As physical food and drink are offered, accepted, and eaten, so also must Christ's sacrifice be offered, accepted, and eaten. As the stomach assimilates the physical, so His sacrifice is spiritually assimilated in the heart of believers. As food nourishes and sustains the physical body's life, so Christ's sacrifice nourishes and sustains spiritual life.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:44 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Dan,

    Again, no Catholic has yet given a Scriptural (apostolic) passage where tradition is authoritatively quoted! I mean, it should be there somewhere . . . Paul is attributed to 13 out of the 27 books of the New Testament, John wrote five, and Peter wrote two . . . Have you considered that many of these extra biblical traditions did not originate with the New Testament Church?

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The didache is a much debated writing. Many consider it one of the thousands of spurious (false) writings of that time.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:14 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    dan, you're right I don't speak to the didache because I simply don't know much about it, plus the only problem I have with the mass is the transubstantiation since there is no valid biblical support to show that the bread and the wine literally become the flesh/body and the blood of Christ. I simply don't care for that ... style of worship...

    I appreciate the honesty on the Didache; Interesting prayer book - you ought to get a copy.

    It's not a "style of worship" It's a command from Jesus and the greatest gift from Him in the world today.



    For a start, someone does:

    This Is My Body: An Evangelical Discovers The Real Presence (Paperback)
    by Mark P. Shea
    Mark P. Shea (Author)

    King James Bible
    And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this IS my body. (note that He does not say ...this resembles my body...or IS is pretty plain except you and Bill Clinton when he was racking Monica

    And Jesus was questioned on it because Jew were not to do this in accord with the Old Testament -- Did Jesus back off ... on the contrary He became more "emphatic,"

    "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the TRUTH, UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you...

    Can't get any plainer than this...you want to call Jesus a liar, go ahead... He even says He is "telling the truth" but the Bible twisting continues...

    "OT Lamentations 3:1-66 Online. ... 3:65 Thou wilt give them hardness of heart,

    This is because ...you have eyes yet you cannot see, ears yet you cannot hear, a nose that smells not...

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    (I find it kind of ironic that a church begun by a king who wanted the right to marry and divorce as many women as needed to produce an heir finds itself in a quandry over homosexuality)

    The same could be said of an institution that speaks of morality but has a history that is saturated in vice, corruption, immorality, simony, murder, nepotism, etc.

    (I believe that the Bible is true in matters of faith and morals)

    If you did, you would cease from believing the traditions that contradict and supersede God's Word. No Catholic has yet given a Scriptural (apostolic) passage where tradition is authoritatively quoted! You can claim the Catholic Church was/is the New Testament Church all you want but the biblical and historical facts scream otherwise.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, you're right I don't speak to the didache because I simply don't know much about it, plus the only problem I have with the mass is the transubstantiation since there is no valid biblical support to show that the bread and the wine literally become the flesh/body and the blood of Christ. I simply don't care for that style of worship and the fact that more emphasis is put on ritual than the proclaiming and teaching of God's Word.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:43 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, but according to you only those who receive the sacrament of Holy Orders have the right and ability to interpret the Word of God and once again you provide no scripture to support that and yet according to msnchris even these men blew it at times when it came to interpreting the Word of God, so it's okay for them to get it wrong but not for those of us who are not priests, bishops, cardinals, and popes. Well you stick with roman catholic tradition and I'll stick with the inerrant Word of God.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:33 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    But still ye will say I can not understand it. What marvel? How shouldest thou understand, if thou wilt not read, nor look upon it? Take the books into thine hands, read the whole story, and that thou understandest, keep it well in memory; that thou understandest not, read it again, and again. If thou can neither so come by it, counsel with some other that is better learned. Go to thy curate and preacher; show thyself to be desirous to know and learn, and I doubt not but God - seeing thy diligence and readiness (if no man else teach thee) - will Himself vouchsafe with His Holy Spirit to illuminate thee, and to open unto thee that which was locked from thee. - Thomas Cranmer, Preface to the Great Bible, 1540.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:08 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " Yet, you avoid it because you cannot stand that it describes the first Christian's Service and it matches the Catholic Mass of today (it has not changed at all in substance) It also says "... confess your sins in church." which must make Protestants gag."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I've been to a number of Catholic masses. I have yet to see a catholic get up and confess their sins. Must make them gag too.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:05 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    The didache is a much debated writing. Many consider it one of the thousands od spurious (false) writings of that time.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "dan, and once again no one is rejecting tradition from the point of history, but rather we are to reject any tradition that contradicts, violates, and/or supersedes the Word of God. And the same is true with extra-biblical teachings."

    You say this but "believe it not." I have yet to see you quote "your edification piece" -the Didache (a prayer book written about 70 A.D. of the early Christian's beliefs; and you know it was read in the service at the time so it must have been adjudged all right. Yet, you avoid it because you cannot stand that it describes the first Christian's Service and it matches the Catholic Mass of today (it has not changed at all in substance) It also says "... confess your sins in church." which must make Protestants gag.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Words from a member of a false doctrine pointing out the errors of Christians. Amusing. It would serve youwel to leave the catholic church and its lies. I know you don't believe in sola scripture, but the truth is that you don't believe in scriptures period.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:49 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "e.g., for gay ministers, vs oppose gay ministers; just examine your posting "jousting" with Mike85 , you say your Holy Spirit guides you; he says his Holy Spirit guides him."

    You missed the point. Sola Scriptura (SS) allows anyone to take any position they want, and claim the Holy Spirit "backs" their viewpoint-this is why "this primary error SS," leads so many to confusion; it is not about Mike85 or Believer--just look at this site and see the confusion it is causing with all these "breakups" among churches due to them all misinterpreting Scripture. Catholics don't have this problem; there is one position and one only for "truth" is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic; why do you think so many ministers have come over recently to the Catholic faith? And, if Chas is right, 400,000 Anglicans returing "home," to where they belong--they had nothing to do with Henry VIII "smoking britches." [Chas is probably the best researcher on this site,i.e., he always backs up his stuff with well documented posts so I will bank on him.]

    I relax and read my Lord's Bible for enjoyment at His pleasure. I love the Psalms. They give me peace. And I love meditation on the Passion of My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:13 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show e.g., for gay ministers, vs oppose gay ministers; just examine your posting "jousting" with Mike85 , you say your Holy Spirit guides you; he says his Holy Spirit guides him. -------------------------------------------------------- do you really think that the spirt that Mike claims that guides him is the "Holy SPirit" when interpreting lev 18;22, rom 1:26-27,gen 19, etc. that homosexuality is not a sin? do you need the church's interpretation of GOd's WOrd regarding homosexuality as in lev 18:22, rom 1:26-27, gen 19, etc to be sure that it is a sin? I think that even an unbeliever can understand what it says even if they reject the truth.... :O) hide

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:06 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "anti, people flag by accident, because they're ticked off, some poster or posters go on a flagging frenzy, there is one person who someone has their number and flags him everytime he posts, and believe it or not some ..."

    This is why I said Believer is more rational than Prophet who just makes things up and has no background in Theology or History. Women never make good "logicians." Ask Jesus.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:04 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Aren't we full of ourself to think that we can simply ignore God's truths and lean upon our own understanding?"

    It's not a matter of "ignoring God's truths." It's a matter of understanding basic logic concepts that "two posits in opposition to each other cannot be true at the same time; both claiming the Holy Spirit backs them."
    It makes the Holy Spirit look like a fool. A mark of the true Church is "One" ness.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:59 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    " I've flagged on rare occassion but I always tell the poster that I did and why I did."

    Now this makes sense. I have been flagged only a few times and cannot figure our what I was flagged for probably because I have never flagged anyone I guess because I want to hear what they have to say.

    Whatever happened to Blacksho (my Irish buddy?) I kind of like his manner when he chewed me out.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 12:52 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    dan, but according to you, you're not smart enough to understand the Word of God and must rely on roman catholic leaders to tell you what it means!!

    Not really I believe Jesus founded His Church on St Peter and the Holy Apostles, gave them the commission to "go forth and teach all nations,"... "whoever hears you hears Me." Jesus gave the Church the authority "Whatsover you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; whatosever you loose upon earth shall be loosed in Heaven." [ask a Rabbi what "binding and loosing" meant under Jewish law back then and even today] [St Peter is "the" major figure as the leader of the Apostles (mentioned 195 times in the NT [more than all the other Apostles put together} - the next is St John, a feeble, 39 times... whom Jesus gave His Mom over to live with him during His "Seven Last Words" upon His death on the cross [had She had other children Jesus would have given Her over to them]. And St John's life was no picnic having been exiled to Patmos - Christian tradition affirms that John's witnessing for the gospel led the authorities to exile him to Patmos during the reign of the Roman emperor Domition (A.D. 81-96) (the persecutions emperor). The same tradition also affirms he did not stay on Patmos but was able to return to ministry at Ephesus. He received much of the material in the Book of Revelation while on Patmos."

    It has nothing to do with being "smart." It has to do with humility, being wise enough to know that the Holy Spirit is "God" and cannot make all of the mistakes Protestants attribute to Him each claiming to "be smart" having Him hold two opposite conclusions at the same time (which is actually "no wisdom at all") not -- "smart," e.g., for gay ministers, vs oppose gay ministers; just examine your posting "jousting" with Mike85 , you say your Holy Spirit guides you; he says his Holy Spirit guides him.
    Ends up a "bunch of "babble" and renders the Bible no help at all.
    All of the Catholic Church's interpretations are ONE in accord with the Nicene Creed and Jesus promising to be with it until the end of the ages.
    So, yes I am not smart enough to get into such nonsense and "self interpreting" and have the wisdom from the Holy Spirit to know that He does not confuse people.
    Deo Gratias - Deo Gratias - Deo Gratias for preserving me from "error."

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:27 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    dan, and once again no one is rejecting tradition from the point of history, but rather we are to reject any tradition that contradicts, violates, and/or supersedes the Word of God. And the same is true with extra-biblical teachings.

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:25 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    dan, but according to you, you're not smart enough to understand the Word of God and must rely on roman catholic leaders to tell you what it means!!

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:56 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    The ECUSA has bigger problems than the whole debate about human sexuality. Any church that allows their own retired bishops like John S. Spong to print heresy and then sell it on the "Christian Theology" shelf of their cathedral bookstores is trying to self-destruct. While inclusiveness can be a wonderful thing, including people who are bent on undermining the foundations of an organization as legitimate voices is inviting disaster. Sometimes a diseased branch must be pruned if the tree is to survive. Heretics need to be censured.

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:58 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    A quote from a famous Protestant you may have heard of...maybe not since I did not see him in the Bible so he is "extra-biblical" and therefore "untrue."

    Tradition is "history"...only a fool would reject history; "â

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "You are speaking in riddles now ... first you try to disprove the sole authority of God's Word and then you quote it to support your unbiblical traditions; which is it?"

    This is it: (no riddle but you have to be smart to understand simple truths):

    I believe that the Bible is true in matters of faith and morals (Catholic teaching); any verses I quote are from the teaching of the One true Church as it is ONE (Nicene Creed accepted by the Catholic and Byzantine, Orthodox, branches...(one belief not millions of beliefs as in Protestantism - every one who says something from verses is guided by the Holy Spirit - this very site proves I am right...homosexuality is okay according to our interpretation of Scripture -- no it is not according to our interpretations - gay marriage is okay ... no it is not ... women ministers are okay... no they are not ... gay marriage (an oxymoron) is delighful and okay - my Holy Spirit says so - ahh, but my Holy Spirit says it is forbidden, ad infinitum ... distintegration, more splinters, more splinters (hardly ONE as the Church Christ founded [one of His major signs incidentally}

    Charley believed his interpretation was right ...

    Tradition is "history"...only a fool would reject history; "â

  • Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:38 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "anti-emily - since the majority of posters here are pro-homosexual activists bent on ignoring the authority of God's word I fail to see any substantiation in your last post."

    Based on your beliefs (Protestantism) their interpretations of Scripture are just as good as your interpretations (Bible jousting), e.g., their Holy Spirit guiding them and your Holy Spirit guiding you,

    And good post Chiesa...let me add if I may, "also founded on a clown who killed the women after he used them up."

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I find it kind of ironic that a church begun by a king who wanted the right to marry and divorce as many women as needed to produce an heir finds itself in a quandry over homosexuality.

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:36 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Several people have said that the Bible is very clear on the subject of homosexuality. They're right! Lev18 & Romans1 are very clear. What's to discuss? This is like saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, but hey, let's discuss it as your truth may not be my truth. This is an old argument that is not rational. Truth is truth, it doesn't change with the observer. My PREFERENCE may not be your PREFERENCE, but preferences are different than truths. I may think a girl is beautiful & you may not but that is a preference, not a truth. Whether you believe in gravity is irrelevant but it is a truth (true for all people, all the time).
    Since God created the universe & its moral laws, His view on homosexuality is truth and He has made His view VERY OBVIOUS for anyone who cares to know it. This is why many Episcopalians have bolted from the American Episcopal church, because they present leaders don't believe that the Bible is the word of God.
    Just read these 2 scriptures (and many more, just consult a topical Bible).
    I understand that there are some hard-to-understand scriptures in the Bible but those on homosexuality are not them. Practice exogesis(reading out of the Bible what it actually says), not isogesis (reading into the Bible what you want it to say).

  • Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    To just asking

    Jesus was the living word as he never debated seeking the truth as if he could also find it. he revealed the truth. This church is still seeking what they see as truth. They will never find it until they see Jesus.

    No debate at all.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:08 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    anti-emily - since the majority of posters here are pro-homosexual activists bent on ignoring the authority of God's word I fail to see any substantiation in your last post.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:46 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    anti, people flag by accident, because they're ticked off, some poster or posters go on a flagging frenzy, there is one person who someone has their number and flags him everytime he posts, and believe it or not some have a legitimate reason to flag someone. Posters view being in the majority or minority is not relevant. I'd like to see CP post who the flagger is, so the poster flagged can ask the flagger why they were flagged. I've flagged on rare occassion but I always tell the poster that I did and why I did.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:13 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    So are only the posts that don't agree with the majority here flagged as innapropriate?

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:16 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    (A sure sign of a dead and apostate church when men think so highly of themselves where they debate Bible truths)

    Aren't we full of ourself to think that we can simply ignore God's truths and lean upon our own understanding?

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "Jesus debated "Bible truths" by quoting the Bible to those he was debating the truth with."

    Being God, Jesus knew what He was doing; not every Tom, Richard (had to use this term because dumb software takes this man"s name as a "swearword;" I've been down this alley before) and Harry...

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "A sure sign of a dead and apostate church when men think so highly of themselves where they debate Bible truths."

    So true...individuals all thinking the Holy Spirit backs them "Bible jousting" at its finest.

  • Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:05 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Flagged as inappropriate. show THIS IS A WARNING ... DON'T YOU FORGET IT. The longer people rationalize away their sin, the longer they will stay a slave to it and expose to all that they are unregenerate. There is NO debate about it. Sexual sin was equated with idolatry in the past and it idolatry now. Each one of them will answer to the One and Holy God. Once they see Him they will know instantly they were living a life of rebellion and GOD WILL CASTE THEM TO HELL them as false teachers. (and yes, I said the word HELL); its an actual realm people along with rebellious spirits are thrown into because they hate the Holiness of God right along with the demons they served. Whether or not the person believed in the existence of God or were religious will not matter, because all will know that they are accountable to God. Their fleshly, carnal mind will no longer be in the way of defending and justifying their lost soul. "because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans 1:21 Read Romans 1:16-32 for the complete context on homosexuality pastors. Let God's word alone lead you, not opinion. Stop tolerating what God condemns. (AND don't water down and reduce homosexuality to one of the dietary or apparel codes in the Law of Moses, which represented a shadow (pattern) of things to come in Christ. But there is no sin ever tolerated by Holy God nor in sinless Christ, for even that was condemned in Jesus' body. (Romans 8:3) And YES GOD is the JUDGE and God said in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortionists will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE (<=== past tense) some of you. BUT you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Jesus is the judge and Jesus said, 'From that time Jesus began to preach and to say,' "Repent (change-turn around 180 degrees-renounce your sin and rebellion), for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (has arrived)." Matthew 4:17 To debate about whether these "so-called" ministers ought to condone the practice of homosexuality is matter of whether they demand an eternity - smoking or non-smoking. No one can have a relationship with God on their own terms. "And as it is appointed for men to die ONCE, but after this the judgment," Hebrews 9:27 Since a person only dies once, there is no reincarnation. That is why the gospel is such good news. Jesus not only forgives our sin but becomes King (Ruling-Owner) on the inside of us, and then through His Holy Spirit, empowers and enables us to live the kind of holy life that pleases God. http://www.cross.tv/16847 hide

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