Saturday, November 07, 2009 Last Update:12:05 pm ET

Society|Sun, Jul. 05 2009 11:18 AM EDT

Rick Warren to Muslims: Talk is Cheap, Let's Work Together

By Michelle A. Vu|Christian Post Reporter

WASHINGTON – Evangelical pastor Rick Warren told a crowd of some 8,000 Muslim Americans that he wasn’t satisfied with just talking to them.

  • (Photo: The Christian Post)
    The Rev. Rick Warren speaks at the 46th annual Islamic Society of North America (ISNA)convention in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, July 4, 2009.
  • (Photo: The Christian Post)
    Dr. Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America, speaks at the 46th annual Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) convention in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, July 4, 2009.
  • (Photo: The Christian Post)
    Some 8,000 Muslim Americans attended the Islamic Society of North America annual convention's main evening session on Saturday, July 4, 2009 in Washington D.C.
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“I will tell you that I am not interested in interfaith dialogue. I am interested in interfaith project. There is a big difference,” said Warren to attendees of the 46th annual Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) convention Saturday evening.

“Talk is very cheap. You can talk and talk and talk and never get anything done. Love is something you do,” Warren maintained. “It is something we do together.”

Warren, the founding pastor of Saddleback Community Church in Lake Forest, Calif., was the only Christian invited to speak at Saturday’s evening main session, which organizers described as the “cornerstone” of the convention.

Warren was warmly received by the Muslim audience, many of which could be seen snapping photos of the popular evangelical pastor, taking notes of what he said, or breaking into applause whenever he said something to their liking.

Before Warren stepped on stage, Dr. Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America, gave a flattering introduction for the megachurch preacher, highlighting how he reverse tithes, giving away 90 percent of his income and living off 10 percent.

The audience, who had been pressed to donate the whole night by the group’s fundraising committee, broke out into applause.

“I am very much an admirer of his, Pastor Warren’s organization and as someone who has increased his interfaith outreach in the last number of years,” said Mattson, a Canadian-born convert to Islam from Catholicism.

But despite the praises, Warren maintained his religious differences with the Muslim crowd and encouraged audience members to also not compromise their conviction.

 “You know as an evangelical pastor, my deepest faith is in Jesus Christ,” Warren stated. “But you also need to know that I am committed not just to what I call the good news, but I am committed to the common good.”

He called on the members of the two largest faith communities in the world to not only figure out how to live in peace and harmony with each other, but also to find a way to work together for the greater good without compromising each group’s convictions.

In his speech, Warren suggested that Muslims and Christians work together to challenge the mischaracterizations and stereotypes in the media about each other’s faith; to restore civility in America by showing that people can “disagree without being disagreeable;” and to promote peace and freedom, particularly freedom of speech and religion, together.

“Let me just say this to those of you who have been in America for many generations now,” Warren said, noting that they were gathered on the Fourth of July, America’s Independence Day. “Part of your responsibility is to help the newcomers learn what it means to be Americans.

“America is a country not built on race, not built on a creed, but built on an idea – liberty and justice for all and freedom for all,” Warren said as he called for citizen education. Continue >>

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  • Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    We keep on repeating the mistakes of the past 1,300 years. We keep assuming that the Qur'an is responding to Biblical teachings, which it is not. Various Christian religious traditions developed between the 510 years of the last book of the Bible and the start of Mohammed's preaching. He was responding to the religious leaders' corrupt teachings, much like Jesus responded to the Jewish leaders' corruption of the Jewish scriptures.

    The Qur’an clearly teaches that:
    • Jesus is the Messiah who was born of the virgin Mary, taught the Gospel, healed the sick, raised the dead, died, and was resurrected;
    • Salvation is a gift from God to all who believe, repent and ask God’s forgiveness;
    • believers are to believe the Gospel, receive guidance from the Holy Spirit, resist the temptations from Satan, avoid the condemnation of hell, and cultivate a personal relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Of course Muslims do not teach this, but it is what they are instructed to believe. The Qur’an not only instructs Muslims to believe the Gospel, but to copy and distribute it to nations of the Earth without compensation. In order to avoid having to comply with this and other explicit instructions, Muslims have developed various religious traditions.

    For example, they claim that the Bible is corrupted beyond redemption and would lead the reader astray. However, the Qur’an does not support this. The Bibles that were around during the time of Mohammed are available to us today, and the Qur’an not criticize the Bible, only the religious leaders’ interpretation of it, much like how Jesus criticized the Jewish religious leaders’ interpretation of the Jewish scriptures.

    Let me recommend 'Brothers Kept Apart’ by Walter Phillips, that you read the compelling evidence for yourself.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:49 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    ''Fair enough. The verses listed are from their website. Each section of "what we believe" has verses referenced with it.''

    No offence, but there are many people who use Scriptures, but it doesn't tell me what they believe, they need to say it in their own word's and then I can compare what they have said with the Scriptures.

    There are many sheep in wolves clothing and they throw the Scriptures around like there's no tomorrow, but by the word's and actions, they expose their true intentions.

    There are real born again Christians and then there are the "Jesus" brigade, there are probably more in the latter that the former unfortunately.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    " I know what the Bible say's, but I wanted to know if Jesus Christ was Lord to the people on that site. "

    Fair enough. The verses listed are from their website. Each section of "what we believe" has verses referenced with it.

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:33 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ''Until you understand to study and tolerate other religions and people, you will never be of a true faith. Thank you for providing me with further proof.''

    I cannot tolerate sin, I am just being honest with you.

    ''We also believe in Jesus as a Prophet, and therefore do not mock him in anyway.''

    You are rejecting him as God, he is no mere prophet.

    ''Your mockery of our last Prophet is just ignorant. He was neither a druggie nor a pedophile. This is exactly why people try to make peace talks and the likes of persons such as yourself make it harder to deal with.''


    Yes he was all of those thing's, I'm sorry if this hurts you.

    Peace talks are useless, Christ is everthing, choose him, choose peace.

    If you want to be a muslim that is your choice, but I love you and do not want to see you perish, which is exactly what will happen to you if you stay in this false religion.

    Jesus Christ died on that terrible cross, he suffered bled and died for you, because he loves you and wants you with him in eterntiy.

    If you carry on rejecting such great love, you will end up in hell and finally the lake of fire.
    This is tough to hear, but time is short and you may be living your last day on earth, who knows, only God.

    Repent and believe the gospel!

  • Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:24 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DP, I know what the Bible say's, but I wanted to know if Jesus Christ was Lord to the people on that site.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "The media portrays all Muslims as bomb-strapping, blood thirsty people who kill without reason."

    That would depend on the media outlet. Most here actually give the Muslim faith a good review. It use to be that when a "Christian" would blow up an abortion clinic some in the media would slant the whole thing to make Christians look like a bunch of nuts. Still, it's only a handful of nuts.

    The bad news is...there are way more "nuts" claiming to be Muslim. Honestly, the best thing the Muslim countries can do for the Muslim faith is to clean their own closets and deal with the "nuts" claiming to be among them. From where we sit, that which is not for us is against us when it comes to terrorism. The terrorists have made it clear they can be anywhere.

    Logic would say that since the USA has military bases in Muslim countries (at their invite) that not all Muslims are "nuts" nor do they support the actions of the terrorist.

    When I lived in the Philippines, there were Muslim terrorists. We'd watch them lob mortor shells at each other over on Basilian Island.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:59 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ""Warren told them to not compromise their convictions such as these quotes from the Qur"an: "Those who believe that Allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood (18:4-6). Allah has never begotten a son and there are no deities beside him (23:91). "

    What any of us believe doesn't change what is.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "We also believe in Jesus as a Prophet, and therefore do not mock him in anyway."

    Actually, that would be a matter of perspective. If a person is a Prince and you treat him just as a Prophet (messenger from the King)...do you not mock him by not giving him the honor he deserves? One not need to say anything to mock someone....

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Until you understand to study and tolerate other religions and people, you will never be of a true faith. Thank you for providing me with further proof.

    We also believe in Jesus as a Prophet, and therefore do not mock him in anyway. Your mockery of our last Prophet is just ignorant. He was neither a druggie nor a pedophile. This is exactly why people try to make peace talks and the likes of persons such as yourself make it harder to deal with.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    From the same page:

    ABOUT JESUS CHRIST
    Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a sinless human life and offered himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all men by dying on a cross. He arose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to heaven's glory and will return again to earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    Please check the verses listed:

    Matthew 1:22, 23; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1-5, 14:10-30; Hebrews 4:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Romans 1:3, 4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Timothy 6:14, 15; Titus 2:13

    Specifically, Romans 1:3:

    "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;"

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:23 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 3

    Flagged as inappropriate. show But Muhammad was a druggie and a peadophile. The Qur'an is not the living word of God and will not do you any good. There is only one way to God and that is through his only begotten Son the Lord Jesus Christ and his precious shed blood. Without the blood there's no remission. hide

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:53 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "Warren told them to not compromise their convictions such as these quotes from the Qur"an: "Those who believe that Allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood (18:4-6). Allah has never begotten a son and there are no deities beside him (23:91). Jews say that Ezra is the son of Allah while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. May Allah destroy them. They are both perverted. They worship rabbis, monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as Lords besides Allah in opposition to the monotheistic command given them (9:30, 31)."

    All the above is a direct contradiction of the central tenets of the Christian faith. Jesus is God and the Son of the Living God. And, Jesus died on the cross to take away the sins of the world, including the sins of muslims. That is the message we should be taking to the muslims who are lost in their sins"


    I will just speak on behalf of Islam as I don't see any other Muslims trying to defend themselves here.

    I honestly believe this is the problem with those who do not understand Islam. The majority of those who are not Muslim, seem to like to take many of our passages and use them out of context. If anything, I have read the entire Qur'an and do not even recall these verses.

    The problem here, is even with Islamic extremists, I can compare them to non-Muslims who do take certain passages and use them for their own benefit, when in actuality that is not allowed. One can read one passage and say "Oh Muslims are taught to destroy everyone".. but if you take the time to read everything else around it, we are taught more to respect other religions and not to cause harm to others.

    Looking at the historical view, the Qur'an was written in a span of 23 years, that which was during time of war and change. You can conclude from that that the Qur'an for much of the passages was written directly for our prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who needed God's guidance at that time. Much of these war passages do not apply to today unless a war is brought upon a people.

    The media portrays all Muslims as bomb-strapping, blood thirsty people who kill without reason. I cannot make it clear enough that if you want to know about Islam, you do NOT look at Muslims, you read our scriptures. Extremists take the passages of the Qur'an that were applied at the time of our last Prophet and use them now. That is not what it was intended for.

    We are taught to love and respect others, even of other religions and races. Even during the time of when our Prophet first revealed himself, his followers went and took refuge in the kingdom of the Christians and were welcomed with open arms. Please do not take ignorance as your keeper. Humans always tend to be afraid of what they do not understand.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:25 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I just had a quick look at the website.

    I can't seem to find anything about Jesus Christ being Lord, have I missed it?

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Do go to www.saddleback.com the to about us and then to what we believe. You'll find quite a bit there.

    More from the Saddleback website:


    ABOUT MAN
    Man is made in the spiritual image of God, to be like him in character. He is the supreme object of God's creation. Although man has tremendous potential for good, he is marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called "sin." This attitude separates man from God.


    ABOUT ETERNITY
    Man was created to exist forever. He will either exist eternally separated from God by sin or in union with God through forgiveness and salvation. To be eternally separated from God is hell. To be eternally in union with him is eternal life. Heaven and hell are places of eternal existence

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:56 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    ''Jesus talke about drawing people to the Gospel. He never said anything about driving or beating them to the Gospel.''

    It might work for some, but you never know how long a person has left on this earth, it may only be a few more minutes and if they don't get the full gospel, it could be their last chance.

    The apostles told people to repent and so did our Lord, there isn't enough time left to soft soap people.
    Tonight they could be in eternity.

    It only takes a few minutes to tell someone the gospel, then you can be nice to them and talk about what the Lord has done in your life and about how much he loves us.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.''

    It's a little bit more than receiving Christ ''into your life.''

    It's about realising you are a hell deserving sinner and that the only way to be saved from eternal punishment is to repent and trust Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

    Lots of people say a ''sinners prayer'' but there was never any repentance and they are still lost and on their way to hell.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:43 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Now knew Christians grow at different rates, and some hardly even grow at all.
    Milk may be necessary in those circumstances. "

    Here in the Bible belt they know the answers but never ask themselves the questions! Many are quite wounded by the traditional approach to church. Many of the churches here are about how you look and if you are part of one of the "right families". Many churches here are cold and plastic. The belief is the Gospel is something that beats people into submission.

    Our church was set up for the "unchurched" which includes those who have never been to church or who have left church for whatever reason. We preach the simple Gospel of the love of Jesus. Our Pastor has said over and over that our church is a no beating zone. Jesus talke about drawing people to the Gospel. He never said anything about driving or beating them to the Gospel.

    In many cases, it's like working with addicts of different sorts. You just have to be patient and keep telling the the truth and expect them to grow into it.

  • Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:35 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "''ABOUT SALVATION
    Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works - only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God's offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin's penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.''

    I take it this wasn't for my benefit. ;) "

    Actually, this was for anyone that took issue with what
    Warren believes about salvation. It is from the Saddleback website. There has been some discussion about what Warren believes about salvation...so, there it is.

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''Jesus often treated them like the children they were.''

    Yes, but with the gospel it's differnt, the apostles just preached the gospel straight, there is no time to waste.
    People can be saved hearing the gospel just once.

    Now knew Christians grow at different rates, and some hardly even grow at all.
    Milk may be necessary in those circumstances.

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''Fair enough. You can take a look at "The Story" sermon series. The book is available at our bookstore on-line. You'll have to excuse Perry's southern accent (VERY southern accent...)''

    I meant Rick, but thanks anyway.

    I love the southern accent, it's the best american accent, in my opinion.


    ''ABOUT SALVATION
    Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works - only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God's offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin's penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.''

    I take it this wasn't for my benefit. ;)

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:54 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "People can take the full gospel preached to them, if they are searching for the truth and they will repent and be saved."

    Under the right conditions raw meat works (I watch WAY too much Food Network.) Occasionally, Jesus would serve the Gospel straight up. His disciples would respond by saying something like "that's difficult!" Jesus often treated them like the children they were. He did make the messages to the masses even more simple. Read the sermon on the mount. It was like nothing the Pharisees taught!

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I'd have to see that for myself,"

    Fair enough. You can take a look at "The Story" sermon series. The book is available at our bookstore on-line. You'll have to excuse Perry's southern accent (VERY southern accent...)

    http://www.brookwoodchurch.org/templates/_brookwoodchurch/details.asp?id=35527&PID=438731


    Also, check out http://saddleback.com/aboutsaddleback/whatwebelieve/index.html which has on it:

    ABOUT SALVATION
    Salvation is a gift from God to man. Man can never make up for his sin by self-improvement or good works - only by trusting in Jesus Christ as God's offer of forgiveness can man be saved from sin's penalty. Eternal life begins the moment one receives Jesus Christ into his life by faith.

  • Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:05 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    ''Perhaps our church is more independent from Rick Warren. Still, he and his team did a small group leader conference in Atlanta that was absolutely spot on the mark as far as the Gospel and leading people to it.''

    I'd have to see that for myself, but my Son could tell a person how to be saved, but he isn't anywhere close to being saved himself.
    The thing is I haven't found any evidence so far that Rick is saved, infact I've only seen evidence to the contrary. That's what a wolf is, they can fool even the saints, if we don't watch them carefully.

    ''Perhaps what people don't understand is that the sermons are "milk" in the simplist form. That's the model. You get them in, give them milk and move them into small groups where they can learn in a smaller setting of 15-30 people. The Saddleback model is a bunch of "churches" that meet together on Sunday as a whole. The real meat of the Gospel is given in small groups and ministry opportunities.''

    Rick doesn't seem to giving milk, it isn't even watered down milk, but it is very, very weak, and misleading whatever it is.

    ''Many people say our pastor isn't preaching the meat. He is. It's just not raw! Well done meat melts like butter in the mouth. Raw meat can make you sick.''

    People can take the full gospel preached to them, if they are searching for the truth and they will repent and be saved.

    The Lord Jesus Christ gave it to them straight and so did the apostles and so should we.
    While we are treating people like babies they could die and then be lost forever.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:17 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    "Watch a whole lot of videos from Rick Warren and you will see him for what he is."


    Perhaps our church is more independent from Rick Warren. Still, he and his team did a small group leader conference in Atlanta that was absolutely spot on the mark as far as the Gospel and leading people to it.

    Perhaps what people don't understand is that the sermons are "milk" in the simplist form. That's the model. You get them in, give them milk and move them into small groups where they can learn in a smaller setting of 15-30 people. The Saddleback model is a bunch of "churches" that meet together on Sunday as a whole. The real meat of the Gospel is given in small groups and ministry opportunities.

    Many people say our pastor isn't preaching the meat. He is. It's just not raw! Well done meat melts like butter in the mouth. Raw meat can make you sick.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:11 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Btw DP, I didn't thumbs down you."

    I know that!!! There are those among us that give me a thumbs down most every time I post! No matter what I post!!! I FEEL THE LOVE!!!! :D

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:44 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I am amazed that Rick Warren would call for an action like this. If you are interested in seeing what else I had to say on this topic please head out to my blog www.thetruthteller.org and see my post, "Where's are Impact".

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Btw DP, I didn't thumbs down you.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Wake up, Rick Warren is a wolf in sheeps clothing, there is no doubt.

    I have a family right now, but if Christ calls me out to the ends of the world, I will go.

    There are many people that do good works, but that does not make them saved.

    I want to hear the gospel preached strongly to all men first, food for their souls, then give them food for their stomachs, else they eat and be filled and then don't listen to the need of their soul.

    Watch a whole lot of videos from Rick Warren and you will see him for what he is.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:32 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "Of course, if you are not under the influence of the Holy Spirit, none of this will make sense to you. Believe in Jesus, accept His forgiveness and His Spirit, and be His witness wherever you go!" Great post, Doc. Even better:

    Dear Jesus:
    Help me to spread your fragrance wherever I go
    Flood my soul with your Spirit and Life
    Penetrate and possess my being so utterly
    That my life may be only a radiance of Yours
    Shine through me, and be so in me
    That ever soul I come in contact with
    May feel Your prescence in my soul
    Let them look up and see no longer me, but only Jesus,
    Stay with me,
    And then I will begin to shine as You shine
    So to shine as to be a light to others.
    The light, O Jesus, will be all from You
    None of it will me mine
    It will be You, shining on others through me.
    Let me thus praise You
    In the way in which You love best;
    By shining on those around me.
    Let me preach You without preaching,
    Not by words but by example,
    By the catching force,
    The sympathetic influence of what I do,
    The evident fullness of the love,
    My heart bears for You. Amen

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "a wolf in sheeps clothing...?"

    Hey, this is what my chicks call me.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:21 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "There is only one thing we need to tell muslims and that is that God does have a Son and if they trust him and him alone they will be saved."

    Yes, just before we bend over and offer our head. When the Muslims take over the world in 2050, the homosexuals will wish they had the Christians back. Why do you think there are no homosexuals in Iran?

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:19 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "I think I may not have been clear..."

    It's ok - you're a lady.

  • Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:18 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "There are a lot of people saying that Rick Warren is a wolf in sheeps clothing, I don't know, I'll have to look into it, but I'm not happy with the quotes in this article."

    You may be right. Why did he back off backing Prop 8 in California?

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:45 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    From what I can tell from looking at "alittleleaven.com" (the youtube previously sited)...they have quite a bit of leaven. Faith without works is dead. Warren was preaching it and this website questioned it.

    Beware the leaven of the Pharisees at "alittleleaven.com"

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwyhF5MyiyE&feature=related"

    Interesting. He said "this is what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ". He did NOT say this is what you have to do to be saved. So, these nice folks who put this up get an "F" in truth telling when they said this is what Warren said you have to do to get to heaven. I'll give the nice people who did this video a "son's of hell" award. Their text doesn't line up at all with the clips of Warren.

    Paul said essentially the same thing when he said to give all that you are to the Lord. Everyone knows there is a maturing process and this is what Warren discribed. Warren said to give all that you understand that you are to all that you understand of the gospel at that moment. As we grow in Christ we learn there is more and more to give and more and more that Jesus wants of us. We can either give more or go out the "other door" as Warren puts it.

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:26 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    Here's one of the big problems I have with people who are against what Warren does. They talk a good game but when the rubber hits the road ... they don't move much.

    How many of those opposed to what Warren is doing allow people in their church to go to social services for food stamps or other aid? Keith Green said the reason we have welfare in this country is because the church is failing in its obligation to the Gospel. Those same people who complain that we can't "work with the world" are standing by on their wallets while people in the same church have to rely on the state just to feed their kids.

    At least Warren is taking action. It's simplistic action based on "baby food" Gospel but it is accomplishing more than most churches.

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Oh dear, oh dear....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwyhF5MyiyE&feature=related

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:01 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I've just watched a couple of rick Warren videos, oh man, what?

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:51 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''So then, you also believe we should have no missionaries? We should not send people to live with the unsaved so that they can see Jesus in us?''

    I think I may not have been clear.
    I didn't mean that we shouldn't go out into the world to preach the gospel and help them with aid etc..

    There are a lot of people saying that Rick Warren is a wolf in sheeps clothing, I don't know, I'll have to look into it, but I'm not happy with the quotes in this article.

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "There is only one thing we need to tell muslims and that is that God does have a Son and if they trust him and him alone they will be saved.

    We cant 'work' with the world"


    So then, you also believe we should have no missionaries? We should not send people to live with the unsaved so that they can see Jesus in us?

    1Pe 3:14-16 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
    Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.


    How then should they ask of the hope that is in us if we have not lived it out next to them? How will they see the hope? How can they see they have falsely accused Christians if we do not work along side them for them to see?


    Mat 21:28-31 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'
    "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.
    "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I {will,} sir'; but he did not go.
    "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They *said, "The first." Jesus *said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

    Rick has gone to work in dirt of the vineyard. Will you join him or are you that concerned with keeping you clothes clean?

  • Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:19 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    There is only one thing we need to tell muslims and that is that God does have a Son and if they trust him and him alone they will be saved.


    We cant ''work'' with the world.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:19 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    DRJ...how is it that you claim the Gospel is for the whole world but thumb your nose at beginning evangelism with Muslims by Warren? The only people Jesus "beat over the head" with the Gospel was the Pharisees. Why is it you choose a different approach to evangelism then the one Jesus modeled?

    You seem to have difficulty with the concept that you really are no better than the Muslims. Except for the grace of Christ ALONE you would be one of those Muslims that hate Christ. You were not born into your life by random chance...that would be evolution. Are you an evolutionist?

    It's difficult to separate much of what you have posted from Christohumanism. Please explain exactly what you believe without using 'coined theological terms'.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:09 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "It is, rather, the social gospel of Jesus, the pretender savior of only the ELECT and NOT the whole world."

    Then the God you believe in is not all powerful? If God is the savior of the whole world then there would be no hell. Either that or God is not powerful enough to save the entire world. Either that or He sets the standards through His choice. Which is it?

  • DRJ »
    Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Daniel-Paul, You have confirmed the root of your misunderstanding of the Scriptures by the fact that you praised the teachings of Tozer, a Calvinist of the first order, and you said your pastor is also a Calvinist.
    Their gospel that you have adopted is NOT the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is, rather, the social gospel of Jesus, the pretender savior of only the ELECT and NOT the whole world. Calvin's god is Satan. For more information check out "Christianity Versus the God of Calvin: Exposing a False God" by John H. Boyd.

  • Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:12 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    As I read these articles on Pastor Warren, it seems that his local Pastoral staff is able to tend to the local sheep while he extends his ministry into the world.

    If I may, I would like to emphasize that Christ was focused on His disciples. His ministry was to the Jew first. The disciples were trained for the mission field.
    (Emphasis on the word "trained")

    Tending to the local sheep is just as important as trying to reach lost souls.

    Just a thought.

  • Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:31 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    "For your information, Christianity IS NOT a feel-good, emotion-driven, universally embraced picnic."

    As I posted for you on another thread on this topic...you obviously have not been in a Saddleback model church and have no real knowledge of this form of ministry.

    As I posted in the other thread, I was raised Christian and Missionary Alliance. Perhaps you've heard of one of the men in the CMA ministry by the name of AW Tozer. So no, I am not into the whole "happy, clappy, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it, feel good Christianity". Neither is our Saddleback model church.

    We do not live by our feelings. Our pastor is very clear on that. Our Pastorial staff is preaching a series called "A Live Worth Watching" on living like a Christians. I would invite you to listen to the sermons and consider them before you question what we do.

    www.brookwoodchurch.org

    Just FYI, our pastor is a Calvanist. Not exactly your happy clappy theology....

  • DRJ »
    Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:22 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Aeandrews, You wrote:
    "Aggressively speaking the Gospel to those that don't believe will just cause them to turn away as opposed to displaying Christ like qualities to win converts for Christ.
    Very well. Then explain the "Christ-like qualities" of those at Pentecost. They were perceived by others as being drunk. When they received the Holy Spirit, they were "IN THE FACES" of thousands of celebrants. NOTHING on earth could have kept them from raucously shouting their praises to God for His salvation. AND YET...there were 3,000 souls added to the Way that day!!! Doesn't make sense...because sharing the Gospel is NOT ABOUT MAKING SENSE! It's about being obedient to the Holy Spirit (if He is in your life)!
    The message is proclaimed because we have received power when the Holy Spirit is within us; and we shall be His witnesses...to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8)
    Of course, if you are not under the influence of the Holy Spirit, none of this will make sense to you. Believe in Jesus, accept His forgiveness and His Spirit, and be His witness wherever you go!

  • DRJ »
    Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:08 am Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Daniel-Paul, Thanks for the rebuttal. However, Your premise is precicely what has placed Christianity in a losing posture today. When a virtual "poster child" for American Christianity such as Warren FAILS to deliver the ONLY MESSAGE in the ONLY NAME given under heaven among men whereby WE MUST BE SAVED, no wonder America and the other nations YAWN when the true message is given by we "underlings" of the faith.
    Warren, by failing to deliver the message of salvation, has taken Christianity down yet another notch. Maybe you and others who manitain a liberal bent on your translation of the Word can applaud a "RELIGIOUS PEP RALLY" while the souls of men hang in the balance, but that's not what Christians are COMMISSIONED by Jesus to do.
    For your information, Christianity IS NOT a feel-good, emotion-driven, universally embraced picnic. The cross of Christ is a dividing line. Check out what Jesus said He came to bring.
    Then imagine thousands of souls burning in hell because people like Warren thought it would be better to build bridges with camaraderie that with Jesus Christ.

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:21 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    The scripture Rick Warren used in the other article regarding this conference, sums up what he is trying to do. Temperance and love is the fastest way to another's heart. I have heard it said "Don't just share the Good News but BE the Good News". Aggressively speaking the Gospel to those that don't believe will just cause them to turn away as opposed to displaying Christ like qualities to win converts for Christ.

    "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." 1 Corinthians 9:19-23

  • Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? "

    Let's not take Scripture out of context here. After all, if you were to apply this the way you have...Jesus would have never walked the earth. How could Jesus have had fellowship with us?

    Are you employed with unbelievers? Is your boss and unbeliever? Do you shop in stores owned by unbelievers? Do you have a doctor who is an unbeliever? (I can go on all day.)

    The term is refering to: " have fellowship with one who is not an equal: 2Cor 6:14, where the apostle is forbidding Christians to have intercourse with idolaters"

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