Updated 09:38 pm.EST, Fri November 20, 2009

Entertainment|Wed, Jul. 22 2009 06:00 PM EDT

Ex-Worship Leader: Why I Left the CCM Movement

By Lillian Kwon|Christian Post Reporter

Dan Lucarini, a former worship leader, had to get away from the Contemporary Christian Music movement.

No, he's not a fundamentalist "stuck in the old ways," he says. But he's a Christian who says he realized CCM was man-centered and unavoidably associated with a spirit of immorality.

While the use of CCM in churches is an old and probably tired debate, Lucarini's book, Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement, is in its 20th printing, seven years after it was first published.

"It continues to, I guess, touch a nerve for some folks in the church today," Lucarini told The Christian Post in a recent interview in Denver, Colo.

When the book first came out in 2002, Lucarini thought it would just be part of the "transitional period" around 2002-2003. But today, people still have the same questions about CCM and about worship in the church.

"I think this is always going to be an issue in Christianity," he said. "As long as we have churches and Christians and we're in the world, we're going to be struggling with how much of the world should we bring in and how fast and at what point do we offend and scandalize other Christians."

A former rock musician (keyboardist, singer and composer) from the Baby Boomer generation, Lucarini became a worship leader just as CCM was beginning to take over church services in the late 1980s to 1990s. He was a new born-again believer at the time and was happy to use his talents for God. He helped a couple of churches transition from traditional to contemporary worship services.

He thought he had all the right motives and enthusiastically promoted the acceptance of CCM in evangelical and fundamental churches.

"We used the excuse that we wanted to reach out to the young people," Lucarini said. "You know what? They didn't like the music. It was our music. It was classic rock. We just did it for ourselves. That was the conclusion I came to."

"Let's be honest about it. It wasn't to save souls. It was just because we like that kind of music and we're the rebellious generation so we just basically thought we could do whatever we wanted," he added.

Nearly 20 years later, CCM is a staple in many churches and the younger generation of believers has for the most part grown up on it and thus do not see the controversy in it.

So when Lucarini and other like-minded Christians challenge the popular music style in church services, they're often labeled as legalistic Pharisees and dismissed because of the generation gap.

But Lucarini reminds readers that they cannot dismiss him as being a traditionalist considering how heavily involved he was in both the secular rock music and Christian praise and worship scenes.

At the heart of his argument is that rock music, and all forms of it, is a music style that was created by immoral men for immoral purposes.

Whether it's soft rock, pop/rock, jazz, praise and worship, Chris Tomlin, Delirious? or Hillsong, CCM is "scandalous and offensive because of where it came from and what it means around us in the world today," he argues.

"And I don't believe that Christians can just take it and sanctify it and call it holy," he says to those who say it can be used to reach people for God. "I think it's a mistake."

It's like serving a nice juicy steak on a garbage can lid (even if you try to scrub it, it remains a dirty garbage can lid), he explains. Continue »

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  • Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:34 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Rege,

    AMEN and AMEN brother! This debate is silly and pointless and is a tactic of the Adversary to keep us from keeping our hearts and mind on Him and His work so we can join Him in His work. There is good, there is bad, there is worthy and there is unworthy and it comes to discernment not style.
    I listen to secular music for many reasons, one being it keeps me grounded in who I was BC and how He has made me His son, subject and coworker with His other children. Many don't listen to secular music and I respect that for whatever reason, it may be a stumbling block or just not edifying but all I ask is for the same respect from other members of His family.

    Grace and Peace,
    Jim

  • Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:33 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Much of CCM IS self centered these days, but was not always that way. As a member of my churches Worship Team
    (and a B.C. professional musician) I can tell the difference between worship and the world IMMEDIATLY. I have been dropped to my knees by Modern Worship as the presence of God was more than I could stand, literally. I will not listen to secular music, as it is empty and Godless. If you can tell me that "Angus Dei" is sensual or "Holy Holy Hosanna" is a "rock-on dude" song, you're not listening to the Spirit.

    Did not Lucifer have "tabrets" (a percussion instrument) and pipes built into him, as Gods greatest creation? Ezk 28:13 KJV.

    David wrote in the Psalms 150:3-6 KJV "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. Praise him with the timbrel and DANCE, praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Praise him upon the LOUD cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals. Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD."

    This doesn't sound like a monks quiet hymn to me. While I LOVE hymns, there is need for spiritual songs of a modern style. The Bible has many examples of people singing, shouting, playing music and dancing to Praise The Lord. Even THE LORD dances over His people because He was so happy with them. Zeph 3:17 KJV The words "JOY over thee" means to spin violently in Hebrew.

    Have you ever heard Jewish traditional worship? It has a definite "beat", and considering the way they pass things down from generation to generation, it would not surprise me to know that it is similar to what David and the Israelites did in bringing back the Ark. 1Cron 15:29 KJV

    Is there abuse in CCM? Absolutely. "Believer" (July 24 1:51) has a good point in that many of these people are looking for fame and fortune and I think should actually be considered Apostates in the church. How many of them try to "cross-over" to secular music later? Bands should insist on the screaming and praising of ME to cease. PRAISE THE LORD, not me. I also believe that some songwriters are just looking to sell material, but then they do not have the anointing, do they. This is where discernment comes in.

  • Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:11 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Weekenderman,

    You are a good man + a brother in the fight for the Truth. I agree with you on the sola statements. At lunch today I was telling a co-worker about the hazard of abandoning sola scriptura, as evidenced by the teachings of the LDS.

    God bless you.

  • Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Sorry.

    Sola Scriptura -- which doesn't include half he teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

  • Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:34 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    weekender,

    You owe Cheisa an apology, dude. Neither she nor I introduced Catholicism into this thread. Go back to the source of it: Jester, July 23, 7:33 and 7:37 p.m. I only responded to his slander of other Christians.

  • Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:31 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Hummm, I can see that many forms of music can be uplifting backgrounds for spiritual lyrics, even some of the older rock songs, as was proven in the sister Act movies can have spiritual connotations if performed right.

    That being said, there are some mucical scripts that are not appropriate for praise and worship. Who in their right minds would use, for example, (and I know this is dating me...) music from Gypsy Rose Lee?? For all you youngsters, she was a stripper. There are other seductive forms of music that do not, under any circulstances, belong attached to song os praise and worhship.

  • Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:20 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    the only music that we as believers should ever entertain, should be born of the Holy Spirit. Nothing else.

  • Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:25 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Chelsea: This thread is about music that is fitting for a church, not Catholicism.

  • Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:11 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    Mathetes, Thank you for defending your fellow Christians, especially Catholics who for some odd reason come in for a lot of baseless criticism here. Some people are under the impression if you do not believe exactly as they do, even if they are imperfect in their belief - or better yet - if you do not belong to the same exact church, you must not be as good a Christian as they are, if at all. I cannot buy that line of "reasoning." If your heart is truly with Christ, if you read His Word and follow His teachings, you can do cartwheels during your worship, dressed in rags while tubas play and it does not matter. God knows your heart and your motivation and sees your actions as you live your life. There is no fooling God on that score and as long as you remember that, it really does not matter what misinformed, axe to grind, hubris filled people purporting to be Christians might have to say. Thanks again, Mathetes.

  • Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:12 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 4

    One last point I forgot to include is that Satan did not invent Rock or pop music. God made Lucifer as an instrument but the music that this instrument played was always created my God to be interpreted by Lucifer, and music is meant to Glorify God (Lucifer later fell to earth and is now Satan). To say that Satan and a rebellious-carnal spirit created ANY music is negating the fact that EVERYTHING is created by God for Himself. **Satan never created anything, he simply takes what God has created and tries to twist it into evil and destructive.** I resent that someone would say that people are repackaging rock and pop music into something Christian...this is not true; we are RECLAIMING rock and pop music because it was stolen by Satan to glorify himself when it should have been used to glorify God.

  • Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    I never knew that trying to put new music in the church was a movement with a name attached to it. In the psalms it talks over and over about singning a new song onto God,and in the new testament there is a verse about himns (older songs to be remembered) I am 22 and have been part of the music ministry for a couple of years. I believe that music is a powerfull teaching tool (Satan certainly knows that) and it is not about whether the song are new or old it is about the spirit behind it. There are people who are too pridefull to let go of their old songs and there are people too pridefull to remember songs of the past and they are BOTH WRONG. it is not about the song, or the rythm it is about God and the people we are trying to teach. We cannot help a world at war if we as a church are too busy fighting silly wars like this. We have to forgive each other and start fighting for what really matters.

  • Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:46 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    A great deal of controversy has been generated over Luther’s adaptation of secular music. For instance, one writer insists,

    None of the works dealing with Luther’s music can trace a single melody of his back to a drinking song…It seems obvious to this writer that using Luther’s music as an historical precedent for using rock and other worldly music in our churches today is completely incongruous with the facts of history. Luther did not use the barroom songs of his day, nor did he use even the worldly music of his day. In fact, he was extremely cautious in protecting the Word of God from any admixture of worldly elements. This can be seen in his words: “I wish to compose sacred hymns so that the Word of God may dwell among the people also by means of songs.” 10
    I have found that people’s adverse reaction to the marriage of secular tunes with spiritual words comes from their personal dislike for such a practice, rather than from historical research. The idea that people have confused Luther’s use of bar tunes with the fact that he wrote hymns using the metrical bar AAB or bar-form structure forgets that “A particularly important class of chorales were the contrafacta or ‘parodies’ of secular songs, in which the given melody was retained but the text was either replaced by completely new words or else were altered so as to give it a properly spiritual meaning. The adaptation of secular songs and secular polyphonic compositions for church purposes was common in the sixteenth century.” 11 Examples of beautiful contrafacta include O Welt, ich muss dich lassen (O world, I now must leave thee), taken from Isaac’s Lied, Innsbruck, I now must leave thee. A tune from Hassler’s Lied Mein Gmuth ist mir verwirret (My piece of mind is shattered by a tender maiden’s charms), which around 1600 were changed to Herzlich thut mich verlangen (My heart is filled with longing) and later to O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden (O sacred head now wounded). 12

  • Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:53 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Most books in support of Contemporary Christian Music justify the use of rock music because of Martin Luther’s alleged use of secular tavern songs, but this is based on an inaccurate view of Luther’s music. In reality, what Luther did is nothing like what Christian rockers are doing today. The following are some of the serious differences between Luther’s music and CCM. (An excellent overview of this is found in Measuring the Music by John Makujina, chapter 7.)


    (2) LUTHER RARELY BORROWED FROM SECULAR MUSIC, AND WHEN HE DID HE CHANGED IT TO REMOVE WORLDLY INFLUENCES. Luther carefully changed the music to fit the Christian message. Of his 37 chorales, only one came directly from a secular song, and it was later replaced by a new tune he had written himself. “By avoiding dance tunes and ‘de-rhythming’ other songs, Luther achieved a chorale with a marked rhythm, but without the devices that would remind the people of the secular world. … Luther chose only those tunes which would best lend themselves to sacred themes and avoided the vulgar, ‘rollicking drinking songs’ and dance tunes. … He carefully tested the melodies he considered, and when necessary molded them into suitability” (Robert Harrell, Martin Luther: His Music, His Message, 1980). “He was not content to accept anything uncritically: he was jealous of congruity between the theme of the verse and the spirit of the music. He carefully tested the propriety for their purpose of the melodies he considered, and where necessary molded them into suitability” (Millar Patrick, The Story of the Church’s Song, p. 74). “Rollicking drinking songs were available in the 16th century too. Luther steered clear of them. He never considered music a mere tool that could be employed regardless of its original association but was careful to match text and tune, so that each text would have its own proper tune and so that both would complement each other” (Ulrich Leupold, an authority on Luther, “Learning from Luther?” Journal of Church Music, July-August 1996, p. 5). “It is perhaps in his selectivity of rhythm that we notice the seldom-acknowledged conservatism of Luther. In order for the congregation to sing in unison, a song had to contain some form of rhythm. The plainsong (Gregorian chant), however, lacked the necessary rhythm. On the other hand, dance songs and drinking songs produced a rhythm far too intense and definite for Luther’s purposes. Therefore, it is believed that in developing his chorales, Luther managed to discard dance songs altogether and limit the rhythm in other songs” (Makujina, Measuring the Music, p. 192).

  • Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:25 am Agree: 4   Disagree: 2

    Worship comes from the heart. Therefore, I could worship God during and by a particular song or songs. I could worship God in the midst of silence. It is not about the song. It is about God. Music is used in the worship of God, but it should not be confused as the act of worshipping God (except for perhaps musicians who may express their honor and reverence to God through their instruments).

  • Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:06 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    One of the most solemn and soul-destroying fallacies of the day is that unregenerate souls are capable of worshipping God. Probably one chief reason why this error has gained so much ground is because of the wide-spread ignorance which obtains concerning the REAL NATURE OF TRUE WORSHIP.
    True worship is the adoration of a redeemed people, occupied with God Himself. The unregenerate look upon "worship" as an obeisance which God exacts from them, and which gives them no joy as they seek to proffer it.
    Far different is it with those who have been born from above and redeemed with precious blood. The first time the word "redeemed" occurs in Scripture is in Exodus 15, and it is there also, for the first time, we behold a people "singing," worshipping, adoring God Himself.

    HINDRANCES TO WORSHIP
    ...lack of assurance...
    ... failure to judge ourselves by the Holy Word of God..
    ...Worldliness...


    WORSHIP
    A.W. Pink
    http://www.the-highway.com/worship_Pink.html

  • Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:35 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    The thing about Christian music that we also need to keep in mind is that some of it is designed to be used as worship in a church. And some of it is designed to uplift and encourage Christians.
    Chris Tomlin writes a lot of worship music. But then you have artists/groups like Jars of Clay, Steven Curtis Chapman, Decemberadio, Mikeschair, and such that write music to encourage and uplift their brothers and sisters.

  • Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:01 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    With what evidence there is (very little for sure) the evidence points towards Luther doing just that. Just because you think he would not do so does not change a thing.

    Math, Does it happen with organists and pianists? Absolutely! It is not the musical style, it is the attitudes of those present UNLESS God has ordained specific musical styles which thus far, no one on this thread can point to.

    Wilderness,

    Please give evidence for your assertion that there are styles that are FROM God (if there are forms not from God, there must be forms from God). All, Many hymns are not God honoring either. The old hymn that has the line, "rising He justified me, freely forever" is absolutely false and teaches false doctrine.

    Grace and Peace, jim

  • Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    Who Am I - Casting Crowns
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU_rTX23V7Q


    Praise You In This Storm - Casting Crowns
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji2rLXr3cEU&feature=related

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:47 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    Ok, so this guy may be a needed voice to counter some inappropriate "musicians" in CCM, for the vast majority of musicians in CCM that I have seen in concert, their hearts, minds and talent are in the right place. Test all things . . . for sure. But hold onto the good musicians that make up the large majority of CCM.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:19 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    scientist 3,

    Martin Luther never "put godly words to drinking songs." This is a common fiction. Luther had too much good sense. When we imitate popular culture in our worship, it should not surprise us when our behaviour looks like that of the world as well.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:00 pm Agree: 6   Disagree: 3

    Weekender said it best with his 7/23 12:32 post.
    I hate the music of hymns but love the words. I fall asleep listening to it. Music changes with each generation (or in the past, with each few generations). I have served the Lord faithfully for over 30 years and absolutely love CCM. My Mom could stomach it but she really loved the old hymns. Good for her, good for me.
    It sounds like Lucarinis reason is the same old reason they used back in the mid 1970s when CCM first became popular. That was that its the music of immoral people (in the mid 70s, it was supposedly from African pagan tribes that rock came from). Lets see, Martin Luther put godly words to drinking songs and voila, he made some of the greatest hymns. If God can make the rocks cry out praise to Him, He can do the same with music.
    I just thank Him that He said "make a joyful NOISE (not symphony) to the Lord".

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:27 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    Weekenderman,

    Our heart--and our motives--are still infected by sin after our salvation. All our "righteous" acts are like filthy rags before God (according to Isaiah). I worry about Christians who look inside themselves to discover they are pretty good in their love for God and motives--instead of looking to Christ, outside of themselves, who fulfilled their righteousness for them. The Apostle Paul called himself the "chief of sinners." Please do not think you are any better than he.

  • DRJ »
    Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:53 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    Chris Hauser, a highly paid Radio Promoter of CCM groups told me in February of 2007 that he carefully screened the lyrics of the songs he was going to pitch to radio stations. He would NOT pitch them if they had the name of Jesus, Born Again, Holy Spirit, etc. because they would be offensive to a certain segment of the radio market. Listen carefully to the latest "Christian" Rock music.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:36 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, is what the Bible tells us."

    That is why we have to ask Christ into our hearts, to make us a "new creation" (according to the Bible). JehovahNissi was correct in stating that the motives of the heart are what is important.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:51 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    One problem with Christian rock is that many see this as a short cut to fame and fortune in the secular rock music arena, so we need to be concerned not only about the lyrics but the motives of the performers as well. And one thing that concerns me is that lately many songs can be interpreted as either a secular love song or a love song with regards to our love for God or His love for us. I prefer, please note the word prefer, Christian music that leaves no doubt it is Christian music!

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    I am really getting frustrated that we cannot use contractions when we post as most people constantly use them and we get our posts knocked off line as a result!

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:08 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    "The heart is what matters"? Great. The heart is deceitful above all things, is what the Bible tells us. John Calvin rightly said the heart of fallen man is an "idol-factory." Follow your heart theology is not the theology of the Scriptures.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:33 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 2

    ..the heart is what mattters. All must come prepared with the right spirit, the right attitude of the heart. Humility before the Lord, full of grace, godly repentance, praise and thanksgiving and truth.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:32 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Great post, Kyle..

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:25 am Agree: 5   Disagree: 1

    Can I just say God judges a man by his heart? My stance on the issue is that its not about the music...because our best worship music here on earth is NOTHING compared to the music that is playing in heaven to God....You can play the greatest sounding worship accepted by all Christian and a person could still play it without there heart truly being in a state of worship to God...and thats wrong...but I dont see how slow or rocking the music is as being the issue...I think the issue is the heart of the musician playing the music.....

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:36 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Prophet, I know that. Show me one church that is not dead wrong or at least unbalannced in some area of their teaching. Yet in every church, some are saved and some are lost. I am all about correcting error and teaching the truth (goes with my gift of teaching) but I would hate to see us shoot the Body of Christ in the foot, so to speak.

    This was driven home to me twice today. An RCC friend expressed her faith in Christ alone in simple yet profound terms. Then tonight a young lady, who has been in a CofG church for years and in NT class for 7 weeks, reported that Sunday she had given her life to Jesus and been saved.

    So while we boldly proclaim the true gospel, let us speak the truth in love; we may be speaking to a brother or sister in Christ.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:01 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "Seriously, you may think all Catholics are lost, but there are Christians and lost people in the RCC just like there are Christians and lost people in your church and mine."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    True, but the catholic church is full of false docrtines and anti-scriptural teachings. Deifying man, and mortalizing God. Idolatry. Arrogance. And denying the Body of Christ. Just to name a few.

  • Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:11 am Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Jester,

    Wow, I think you just set a new record with your 7:33 and 7:37 comments. Hmmm, the new standard for flagging reads "comments that are unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable." You scored eight out of eleven, a new low!!

    Seriously, you may think all Catholics are lost, but there are Christians and lost people in the RCC just like there are Christians and lost people in your church and mine. So please quit shooting the people on our team; they are not the enemy - Satan is.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:45 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 0

    From personal experience I can share one example of contemporary music that did not glorify God:

    We gathered for chapel and were soon singing and praising God. We sang/prayed our words through three songs, deeper in worship and closer to God. A couple of minutes into the fourth song, the lead guitarist took off into a solo and man, was he good! He was so good, everyone took their eyes off God and stood there looking at the guitarist. No words were sung, no hearts lifted up, and the worship died right there so he could show off his licks. The Spirit was pushed off the stage and the sermon that followed fell flat.

    Could that happen with a hymn? Maybe; some pianists/organists like to show off just as much while playing hymns. Whether we lead worship or just sing/play along, we must be careful we keep the focus on God.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:35 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 0

    I do not believe that Traditional forms of music are any more or less inspired than Contemporary forms.

    But I do believe that not every song we hear is inspired of God.

    We need to sense the same Holy Spirit in any form of music the same way as we sense the Spirit in any form of sermon.

    Test the Spirits to see if they are true.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:02 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    Tribtrooper,

    Now THAT I agree with wholeheartedly! Amen.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:59 pm Agree: 9   Disagree: 2

    There is a difference between worshiping God in music and putting on a big show to draw a bunch of people who only want their ears tickled and their eyes tantilized by a woman strutting back & forth across the stage in clothing that looks like spray paint (and not much of it, either) and more makeup than Tammy Faye Baker could manage to trowel on. It is not the lyrics so much as it is the presentation. There are beautifully written contemporaty songs, but unfortunately they can be discredited by the behavior of those singing them.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:52 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 2

    I listen to everything from Skillet, The Afters, Bryan Duncan, Jars of Clay, Toby Mac, SCC, Keith Green, Hillsong, Maranatha Praise. Everything I listen to, regardless of the style, glorifies God and draws me closer to Him.
    I guess it all depends on maturity level. Those who are mature can see the truth in what is being sung. Those who are not, find "demons" in every song. And they miss out on a lot.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:37 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 1

    As the former Larry Norman said and sang, "Why should the devil get all the good music!", to me the most important question is, does the music being played speak to or about the God of the Bible, His character or work, and/or our relationship to Him. But I also think what needs to be considered as well is the testimony of those performing the music be it Christian performers or those leading music in the local church. But the testimony of the performers does not determine if the music is indeed Christian music.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:34 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 0

    Wilderness,

    No offense, but can you let me know where you get that claim?

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:23 pm Agree: 4   Disagree: 3

    Music (without lyrics) is not neutral. There is a musical sound not of God, but many are failing to discern that in this perilous hour. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2Ti 3:13.)

    We need more watchmen who will sound the alarm, even if they are dismissed by the undiscerning, and belittled by those who have embraced that which is musical dung from the bowels of Satan.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:43 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    a little girl was watching her mom prepare a ham for Christmas dinner. she noticed that her mom cut off the end of ham before she put it in the pan. curious, she asked her mom why she did that. her mom said "well, honey, that is how my mom prepared it."
    so, the little girl went to her granma and asked her the same question. granma said "well, honey, that is how my mother prepared it."
    so the little girl went to her gigi and asked her. the old woman replied "well, honey, that is how my mother prepared it."
    finally, in desparation, she went to her great great grandmother and asked her. feebly she leaned forward in her wheelchair and quietly said "I did that because the ham was too big for the pan."

    moral....just because someone does something a certain way, doesnt mean theres a good reason. in other words, the reason why the jews worshipped God the way they did is because that was the only instruments they had, and that was how they chose to sing. not because God told them that is how they were supposed to.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:37 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 7

    how many catlicks does it take to change a lightbulb?

    none. they just pray to the saint of burnt out lightbulbs. he always answers. who would that be? saint GE?

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:33 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 10

    Flagged as inappropriate. show good post! i would like to get a hold of some of the recordings of jewish music from the third century b.c. it must be quite a find! i wonder who their producer was. and i have looked, but i see nowhere where the bible gives a description of what correct singing and music should be. but i guess the catlicks like to be the big boy on the block and make everyone play by their rules. get our jesus-on-the-cross necklace and idol of mary, beat on our drums like a bunch of neanderthals, "sing" a song with only two notes in it and call ourselves the holy (gag) church of God. piousness is godliness right? hahahaha. at least with the catlick church we have all the pharisees in one group hide

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:29 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Nice post IVV!

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:29 pm Agree: 5   Disagree: 3

    I wish Christians would grow up. It isnt about the style, or the beat, or the rhythm that determines if the music is worldly...the message determines that. God created music. And Satan took it and is using it for his purpose. He is the master of music. He knows just how to use it to lead others astray. It is time the church takes back what belongs to them and uses it for the glory and Kingdom of God.
    If you are so caught up in the beat or style, and you shut out Gods Spirit, then you are missing a LOT! But that is your loss, not mine.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:30 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    l

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:27 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    David Crowder is one CCM worship artist who has remained faithful to the Word while using the "music of the times" (The Bible, BTW, says to "Praise Him upon the LOUD cymbals").

    Nashville, Tenn. Jul. 23, 2009… GMA Dove winners and former MSN “Artist of the Year” David Crowder*Band will release their fifth studio album, Church Music, on Sept. 22 from sixstepsrecords and EMI CMG Label Group.

    Aptly titled, the band hopes their self-produced recording will prompt listeners to recognize the continual evolvement of music within the church as well as transport them into an awareness that we exist within the very presence of God, therefore allowing Church Music to happen anywhere.

    “I hope this album serves as a reminder of music within the Church, of its richness and its broadness, and the tension that exists in using elements of cultural language to express our collective experience and also still remain a transformative presence that is set apart,” admits band front man David Crowder.

    To add to the uniqueness of the album, the 17 songs on the album play continuously from beginning to end with one song blending into the next. In order to accomplish this, the band poured an immense amount of work into the process, sequencing the tracks before anything had been recorded so keys and tempos could be finalized. The result: 73 full minutes of music – 17 tracks, which ably stand alone, while at the same time seamlessly join together.

    “We asked ourselves, if we, as a band, were to throw our arms around the popular music of our time, here in 2009, how would we do it,” says Crowder. “We started with the track. We programmed the album first, forcing ourselves to write from the track up, and then, after the song emerged, we dismantled it, replacing much of the programming with live instrumentation but leaving the fundamentals that the song emerged from intact.”

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:20 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Check out the complete interview (in the related links box). He says a lot more interesting stuff there.

  • Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:41 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 2

    Personally, I think you are missing a VITAL element to this debate. I took this gentleman to be referring to the actual MUSIC, not the lyrics per se (although he did mention lyrics as being poor). If you leave the lyrics, does the music itself make you think more about the Almighty or does it boost some emotional response? If the music offers an emotional response without making you think of the Almighty, then I would say it fails the test.

    The ancient Jews had the right idea because we know how some of their music sounded (not the temple music with instruments, but those of the synagogs [sp]). Many Orthodox Jews today chant the Psalms in a similar fashion as their ancestors did. There has been some variations due to the passing centuries, but the practice is the same. The first Christians, being Jews, also brought that musical tradition with them and the the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches continue that practice today in their own liturgies.

    Chant is the only truly universal medium for giving glory to God (as limited as our music is). First, most chants use the Psalms for their text (Imagine that, using the the Word of God AS the song), so we know their theology is sound. Second, there is no instrumentation in chant. This fact alone removes a huge wordly factor from the debate. Third, chant is not (usually) metrical which removes it from the modern musical styles (chant uses the natural rhythm of the words to create the melody). Fourth, since chant is a do, re, mi scale and not a fixed A, B, C scale, ANYONE can sing chant. If you have ever attended an Orthodox Divine Liturgy or a Roman Catholic High Mass, you know what I mean. There are also good Youtube clips of beautiful chant within these worship services.

    My point here is not to say there is no room for other music in worship, but that there are musical forms more appropriate to worshipping God. It is not a matter of taste. There is such a thing as Truth. Even in music.

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