Updated 04:40 pm.EST, Sat November 21, 2009

Opinion|Sun, Jun. 14 2009 04:15 PM EDT

Why Same-Sex 'Marriage' and Religious Liberty Can't Coexist

By Chuck Colson|Christian Post Guest Columnist

As more states-like Iowa-approve same-sex “marriage,” conservatives are claiming that freedom of religion is in peril. Same-sex “marriage” supporters accuse them of engaging in hysterical gay-bating. Who’s telling the truth?

Let me share some stories with you from an excellent news broadcast produced by National Public Radio. Then you decide.

Two women decided to hold their civil union ceremony at a New Jersey pavilion owned by the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association. This Methodist group told the women they could not “marry” in any building used for religious purposes. The Rev. Scott Hoffman said a theological principle-that marriage can only exist between one man and one woman-was at stake.

The women filed a discrimination complaint with the New Jersey Division of Civil Rights. The Methodists said the First Amendment protected their right to practice their faith without being punished by the government. But punish the Methodists is exactly what New Jersey did. It revoked their tax exemption-a move that cost them $20,000.

Then there’s the case of the Christian physicians who refused to provide in vitro fertilization treatment to a woman in a lesbian relationship. The doctors referred her to their partners, who were willing to provide the treatment. But that wasn’t good enough. The woman sued. The California Supreme Court agreed with the woman, saying that the doctors’ religious beliefs didn’t give them the right to refuse the controversial treatment.

In Massachusetts, Catholic Charities was told they had to accept homosexual couples in their adoption service, or get out of the adoption business. They chose correctly-get out of the business.

In Mississippi, a mental health counselor was sued for refusing to provide therapy to a woman looking to improve her lesbian relationship. The counselor’s employers fired her-a move that was backed up by the U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.

In New York, the Albert Einstein College of Medicine at Yeshiva University refused to allow same-sex couples to live in married student housing, in keeping with the school’s orthodox Jewish teachings. But in 2001, the New York State Supreme Court forced them to do so anyway-even though New York has no same-sex “marriage” law.

In Albuquerque, a same-sex couple asked a Christian wedding photographer to film their commitment ceremony-and sued the photographer when she declined. An online adoption service was forced to stop doing business in California when a same-sex couple sued the service for refusing, on religious grounds, to assist them.

Convinced? Clearly, homosexual “marriage” and religious liberty cannot co-exist-because gay activists will not allow them to. As marriage expert Maggie Gallagher puts it, same-sex “marriage” advocates claim that religious faith “itself is a form of bigotry.”

Tune in tomorrow, for I want you to learn how you can help protect both our religious rights and marriage itself. I know this may sound alarmist, but it’s true. If we don’t work to stop this juggernaut, we may soon find ourselves hunted down at work, at school, and even at church-as others have been-by those determined to force us to accept as a moral good what God calls evil.

_______________________________________________________

From BreakPoint, May 12, 2009, Copyright 2009, Prison Fellowship Ministries. Reprinted with the permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. All rights reserved. May not be reproduced or distributed without the express written permission of Prison Fellowship Ministries. "BreakPoint" and "Prison Fellowship Ministries" are registered trademarks of Prison Fellowship
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  • Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:47 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BRIT72 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:22 am He could have got down from that cross at anytime and destroyed everyone there and then and they would have deserved it,.....
    _________________________________________________________
    In Response: Where does it say this? Got a verse that say Jesus could have popped off the cross and trashed everyone?

    Where in the historical record is there any evidence that Jesus ever existed? Josephus's writings contain the only passages quoted as secular proof and those sentences have been determined to be forgeries by the leading authorities on him.

    So, without a shred of evidence to back up your claims from the people who wrote at the time about even the color of paint on the walls of houses and how much grain was sold for, you don't have as much as a word about the so called miracles he allegedly performed. Certainly something somewhere would have recorded such feats.

    You have only a book put together by men at 2 councils who decided what was to be included and more importantly kept out.

    Ever read the books they tossed out? One of them is from Mary Magdalene, a woman who could read and write! So if you give credence to old books this one meets the qualifications the same as any version of the bible.

    There is also a guy claiming to have the gospel of Jesus but no one takes him seriously either. So if a book existed that was written by Jesus you would think all those folks proclaiming him the son of a god would want to read it. Instead they talk about stuff written 70 years after his alleged death and nothing in the secular records that record other deaths via crucifixions indicates him being there.

    It certainly contests anything written in your book and illustrates that when given the facts you choose fantasy and make up excuses to cover your gaps in the historical record and that is the same argument you use on another topic that you can't win the argument on either.
    TFR

  • Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:03 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 16

    Why do people think God is against gays? That doesn't make any sense...because one person-Paul-a misogynist-in the NT says it's bad? Jesus did not say anything about it-he said quite the opposite re matters of embracing your fellow man.
    The truth is-and this will scare many of you-is that the Bible was written by man, edited by man and excised by man-google Council of Nicaea for proof-it's all there.
    Gay couples do not harm anyone and they pay taxes, they've died for this country and deserve equal rights as anyone else
    I am very happy that some religions are finding the real God and embracing gays-we are human just like you are.
    Stop thiking about gay sex! We don't think about you all having sex (yuck!). All sex is messy and can be dirty and fun-God cares about the SPIRIT
    We cannot lose this fight-no civil rights fight has ever lost in this country.
    Please find God and embrace your fellow man-gay and straight alike...

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:54 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show cooljoebay - bravo! Very well said. Some good points and food for thought. You should be a teacher. And I hope you are a parent because children need your brand of wisdom. I disagree with your advocacy of a "don't ask don't tell" approach. Specifically, I disagree that it is a "positive way to end [a] conflict." I"d characterize it more as a neutral way to temporarily quell a conflict. But in the big scheme of things that is a minor disagreement. Thanks again for your insightful post. hide

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:51 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BRIT <I don't want to get into a debate about a subject I'm not qualified to argue>>

    OK, I understand. thanks for your honesty. As in any profession, there are less than honest people, that can apply to scientists as well I suppose although my experience in the sciences has shown that to be very rare. I can think of one instance where a scientist was not honest about his results. His fraud was detected and he was dismissed from his job. That sort of person really isn't a scientist. Thing of it is, in science it really doesn't matter what a scientist might believe, its the data that matters. If the data does not support the conclusion then the conclusion will ultimately be rejected. Conclusions must pass scrutiny by the scientific community, for example in peer reviewed scientific journals. If results and conclusions dont stand up to scrutiny, then they are rejected. One famous example I recall was the claim by Ponds & Fleishman that they had discovered â

  • Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:22 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show ccoljoebay, the Lord Jesus Christ suffered bled and died for you so that you don't have to go to hell. He didn't only suffer in his body, he suffered in his soul and worst of all he suffered seperation from the Father. He truly was alone, despised and rejected on that cross, the Holy God, treated like that by his own creation and he loved us so much that he let it happen. He could have got down from that cross at anytime and destroyed everyone there and then and they would have deserved it, but praise him, he is Love and even though we are wretched, he loves us so much. So I wish people would stop saying that he can't be good because he judges sin, he is good and none of us deserve his love and no-one will have any excuse for why they didn't love him back. The Holy Spirit strives with all men, he is striving with you, please don't reject him. hide

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:39 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    The stories used to justify the title of this article aren't enough to back up the claim. Anyone who is unbiased will recognize any new movement as a struggle. The gays are making a lot of mistakes in their newfound freedoms. They are not using common sense. I do believe that the only reason they are pushing so hard against religious organizations is because the religious organizations have been pushing them so hard. It's pure resentment. And people suffering from emotional resentment do not think straight (no pun).

    Try fast forwarding about 100 years into the future. You will see a completely different scenerio. History has taught us this well.

    Any place of worship or of business is allowed to refuse service to anyone at any time. That's a right that includes all types of people. Blacks have been known to cry racism over this right. Gays will cry discrimination over it as well for awhile. But it does not prove that same-sex marriage and religious liberty cannot co-exist. That's a reckless and unthoughtful interpretation of the evidence.

    I prefer the "dont ask-dont tell" philosophy. One thinks of the military and it was created to eliminate the problem without hurting the military. After all, they might be gay but they are still just as human as anyone else. And its a positive way to end the conflict. Both sides win. I dont see religious groups working this way. It basically boils down to this. If you dont believe in Jesus, and you don't follow the rules, you will be condemned forever. That is the most polarized piece of garbage I ever spoke or heard.

    There are a lot of unforseen reasons in this world why people are different and diverse. It may take a hundred years or more to recognize the cause. But it is never justifiable to judge or condemn a person for who or what they are that is different from others. Its the same as jumping the gun because maybe our minds arent intelligent enough YET to realize the true reason for the existence of homosexuality. I cannot and will not follow an idea that was written back during a time when people would have yelled BLASPHEMY if there was a mention of a telephone in the future. Even though Christians are using them today!! To follow such outdated ideas is like resetting your intelligence to that time period. NULL AND VOID.

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''How about you provide me with a single example. I suspect you are not able to....''

    Because I have already said that I am not the person to ask, I am not a scientist and you can find out for yourself, if you really want to know.

    I don't want to get into a debate about a subject I'm not qualified to argue about, but there are many out there that can easily help you.

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:58 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BRIT,

    How about you provide me with a single example. I suspect you are not able to....

  • Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:29 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''OK, Looks like all you have to go on is hearsay. Really not worth much...''

    You can find out all the info for yourself, but if you do, you'll probably not believe it anyway.

    You will probably just try to discredit them, just like many others do.

    The truth is not in you, so it means nothing to you.

  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BRIT

    OK, Looks like all you have to go on is hearsay. Really not worth much...

  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 1:55 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''BRET, Oh I see, now which scientists are telling us lies? Please be specific and tell us why you believe they are telling lies.''

    For the details, you would need to ask a scientist who is a Chritian, but there have been many times when scientists have known their findings to go against what they believed and they won't admit it.

  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:41 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    BRET, Oh I see, now which scientists are telling us lies? Please be specific and tell us why you believe they are telling lies.

  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:27 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    johnzon, you didn't read my post properly, I did not say all scientists.

  • Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:44 am Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Johnzon: "But, but yet you are on the internet. You better get off because it comes from scientists that are full of lies and the scientific theories that make the internet possible are lies, the internet is really the product of black magic". Spoken like a true scientist. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:03 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    BRIT

    <<Many scientists are full of lies, they know that there is proof against their theories, but they lie their way out of the truth >>

    But, but yet you are on the internet. You better get off because it comes from scientists that are full of lies and the scientific theories that make the internet possible are lies, the internet is really the product of black magic.

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "I don't agree with abusive language and mocking of homosexuals, so I can only apologise for any bad behavior. But, if it's telling them the gospel and that homosexuality is a sin, then that is just truth and not abusive and certainly not cruel as that would show a great love for their souls." First, thank you. I appreciate that because I've seen horrifically hurtful, filthy things on this site. It's nice to know that not everyone here stands behind that stuff. Second, I understand what the more reasonable christians here are trying to do, and I can appreciate the good intention. I really can. It's just that we come from very different points of view and so are going to have some very substantial disagreements. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Then on your head be it." Exactly, yes, thank you. And I accept that. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:10 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    I don't agree with abusive language and mocking of homosexuals, so I can only apologise for any bad behavior.

    But, if it's telling them the gospel and that homosexuality is a sin, then that is just truth and not abusive and certainly not cruel as that would show a great love for their souls.

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Many scientists are full of lies, they know that there is proof against their theories, but they lie their way out of the truth and people believe them, because they are scientist and educated so they must be right.

    It's the same with ''theologians'' and ''scholars'' they must be believed, they are so clever, so if they say it's so...

    ''Thanks for the warning but I'll pass because I think it's silly. I don't need a supernatural, mythological fantasy to get me through life.''

    Then on your head be it!

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:47 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Yes Brit, cruelty. I've seen certain posters on this site say horrifically abusive, mean, disgusting things about gay people. (I assume that is at least in part a product of those folks' religious belief, which makes me run all the faster away from religion.) Gay people are your neighbors, coworkers, and relatives. We are your doctor, grocery bagger, the cop who gave you a speeding ticket and the teacher you chatted with at the PTA. We are parents ourselves (some of us), and deal with the same joys and struggles and problems and triumphs as you do. We are (at least to the same extent as heterosexuals) good, law-abiding, taxpaying, upstanding American citizens. Then to see the filth and lies I sometimes encounter here about gay people, well I think 'cruelty' is being generous. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:41 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "I can't save you, only Christ can." That's your belief system, not mine. "If you could say anything to make me believe otherwise, I would never have been saved myself. I am saved, so I know what I believe is the truth." Translation: I blindly believe one thing and will never change no matter what. Scary! And cult-like. Personally I believe anything worth putting my faith in will stand the test of all the questions I can throw at it. "It's not the same as following some man around untill it's time to commit mass suiside, it real and spiritual." To those people, that is real and spiritual too. "I don't dismiss all science, just science falsely so called." Translation: I only dismiss science that contradicts my supernatural beliefs. "If it's real the Bible will back it up, if not then satan will use it to blind people." First, plenty of religious bible-following people have no problem with homosexuality. Second, how about the age of the universe? Seems some groups of christians believe it's 5,000-10,000 years old, despite overwhelming evidence and vast concensus that it's billions of years old. Did satan make us all believe that? Did satan invent carbon dating? Oh and wasn't it christians who tried to imprison and discredit the first scientists who found that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around? It seems religion has a history of trying to discredit science whenever it shines a light on religion's mistakes. "You do not have to listen, although I would suggest that you do." I have listened, my whole life. What I see is that a majority of people who embrace religion become more judgmental, less rational, and they dumb down their lives so that everything they can't explain or comprehend gets put in the category of god's mystery, and they don't challenge themselves. They live in ignorant bliss, and that's not for me. "You are free to do whatever you want, within the law, but there will be consequences. There is only one thing that I am afraid of and that is for you and others to become eternally lost." Again, that is in your supernatural belief system only. I don't subscribe to it. "You could be only one breath away form eternity and it's our job to warn you of this, it's yours to believe it." Thanks for the warning but I'll pass because I think it's silly. I don't need a supernatural, mythological fantasy to get me through life. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:28 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ''I often feel compelled to stand up against such deceit and arrogance and cruelty.''

    Cruelty?

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:18 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Why do you post at CP anyway?" If you actually want to know, I used Google News and often see links to stories on gay issues that link back to this site. I sometimes come to read them, and often see cruel, judgmental, untrue things written by christians against gay people. I often feel compelled to stand up against such deceit and arrogance and cruelty. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ''It would give you less heart burn.''

    Man I've got bad heartburn today, but I like it here, so I'll stay. :)

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:51 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ''First, you don't care about "saving" me.''

    I can't save you, only Christ can.

    ''No matter what anyone says, you will cling to your faith. Am I correct? That sounds pretty cult-like to me.''

    If you could say anything to make me believe otherwise, I would never have been saved myself.
    I am saved, so I know what I believe is the truth.
    It's not the same as following some man around untill it's time to commit mass suiside, it real and spiritual.


    ''dismiss science, logic, reason and fact any time it contradicts the faith-based beliefs.''

    I don't dismiss all science, just science falsely so called.
    If it's real the Bible will back it up, if not then satan will use it to blind people.
    It's working isn't it.

    ''If you could just keep your crazy beliefs to yourself we would get along much better.''

    You do not have to listen, although I would suggest that you do.
    We would get along much better at the cost of God's truth. I think I'll pass.

    ''I wonder why you don't. Could it be you're afraid that if more people have the freedom to live without your supernatural beliefs that, like me, they might start to see how silly such beliefs are?''

    You are free to do whatever you want, within the law,
    but there will be consequences.
    There is only one thing that I am afraid of and that is for you and others to become eternally lost
    You could be only one breath away form eternity and it's our job to warn you of this, it's yours to believe it.

    As I've said before, if you don't like hearing any of this, why are you here?

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:48 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    garageguy

    Matt 7:1 - "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

    Everything you say about Christians can be said about you.

    Why do you post at CP anyway? Why don't you go to a site that have people that think like you? It would give you less heart burn.

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:31 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Oh BRIT, could you possiobly be any more typical? First, you don't care about "saving" me. You want to sit comfy in your established faith in the supernatural. No matter what anyone says, you will cling to your faith. Am I correct? That sounds pretty cult-like to me. Anyone who disagrees or points out illogical or downright nonsensical aspects of this faith in the supernatural, those folks are written off as heathen. Every time, without fail, blindly. Once again, cult behavior. You probably think cults are only weirdos who sacrifice animals in the woods. I consider cults any group who gets so brainwashed by a faith-based belief system that they systematically dismiss science, logic, reason and fact any time it contradicts the faith-based beliefs. Which is most religions I know of. And for whoever asked, the reason I get worked up is because MY LIFE in my country, the land of freedom and liberty and equality, is being unduly and unwanted-ly influenced by people who believe in an all-powerful white haired man in the sky who listens to a billion people's wish lists whispered in his ear simultaneously. It's crazy, yet the crazies are trying to take yet a bigger control of the society I live in. If you could just keep your crazy beliefs to yourself we would get along much better. I wonder why you don't. Could it be you're afraid that if more people have the freedom to live without your supernatural beliefs that, like me, they might start to see how silly such beliefs are? hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:16 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Prophet "If you don't believe that you're going to hell, then what are you getting so worked up about? If someone said "Well, you've been naughty this year so Santa isn't going to visit you", would you react with as much passion as you do on here? Not in the least.
    I believe that those who react so adamantly against such things as God, heaven, and hell is that in their heart they know it's true. I have never seen anyone react so against something they knew was truly a fairytale."

    Good point..

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:07 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 2

    You really don't know what a cult is do you gg.

    You also seem a little stressed out.

    I would love to see you saved gg, but it doesn't seem to be doing you any good being here.
    Sin does have a habit of doing that though, you know, making people more and more hostile to the gospel.

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:53 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "I would have a lot more respect for atheism if it wasn't so judgemental and have the blood of hundreds of millions of innocent people on it's hands..." A - No, you wouldn't. No matter what you will never respect nonbelievers because you are programmed not to no matter what anyone says or does. If new knowledge disagrees with your programming, it's all conveniently from the "devil." Sheesh, grow up. It's not the Middle Ages anymore. B - You keep tossing that ominous assertion out but never explain it. Why is that? And it's not like christianity and islam and other religions don't have the blood of innocents on their hands you know. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:50 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show "Sounds like the homosexuals who post on CP." Oh gee brilliant, the adult equivalent of "I know you are but what am I!" Btw, if CP doesn't want anyone other than existing cult members to express views (isn't that all too typical for a cult) then the forum shouldn't be open to the public. hide

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:57 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    >>>...judgmental, pompous adults ...somehow sickly proud of it...<<<

    Sounds like the homosexuals who post on CP.

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:55 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    I would have a lot more respect for atheism if it wasn't so judgemental and have the blood of hundreds of millions of innocent people on it's hands...

  • Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:01 am Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Wow, look at you folks dance around. I think every single word of my last two posts was right on the money, and it struck nerves. I would have a lot more respect for religion if it didn't turn innocent-born babies into judgmental, pompous adults who say the things you folks say here. It's disgusting, yet you are all somehow sickly proud of it. But it's pretty clear no one will ever change you. You're like cult members who have been brainwashed. Yuck. hide

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:22 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    "What you want is a christian theocracy for America."

    You started your post with this lie, Johnny Boy, so everything that followed is jibberish. Blah, blah blah.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:58 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 1

    DP

    <<As a Christian, that means representing what God says is right and wrong in how I vote and in the legislation I support. My values in such come from the Bible>>

    What you want is a christian theocracy for America. The problem is it would lead to the oppression of those that are not christians AND to those that are christian but may not hold the "correct" biblical interpretations from that dictated by theocratic rule. Careful what you wish for, get a christian theocrat with a different interpretation of the bible from yours and it could be trouble for you, perhaps a re-education camp.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:58 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    "Most people who have objections to gay couples getting a civil marriage license do so on the basis of their religion. If I don't subscribe to those religious beliefs why must I live by them?"

    Because this is America. We are a democracy. There are people who don't believe it is wrong to speed or pass on double yellow lines. If you don't believe this I can direct you to a few roads in my area. There are those who do not subscribe to the belief that having sex with a 12 year old is wrong. should they not have to live by that simply because it was a law created from a religious basis? Yep...it was.

    What you are subscribing to is a free for all where everyone does what is right in their own eyes instead of the rule of law.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:54 pm Agree: 3   Disagree: 1

    "DP, that is simply not true. I want to live in a world where you can believe whatever you want about homosexuality. But where you will not try to force me to live by that belief. You won't let that happen."

    1Cr 4:1-4 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

    Here in is the problem. I, as a Christian and as an American, am a steward of my citizenship. As a Christian, that means representing what God says is right and wrong in how I vote and in the legislation I support. My values in such come from the Bible. For example:

    Hbr 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

    The word bed is koite which means:
    1) a place for laying down, resting, sleeping in
    a) a bed, couch
    2) the marriage bed
    a) of adultery
    3) cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful
    a) sexual intercourse

    The word undefiled is amiantos which means:
    1) not defiled, unsoiled
    a) free from that by which the nature of a thing is deformed and debased, or its force and vigour impaired


    Now, with that said, as a steward of my citizenship and a Christian, I want the laws to reflect these principles. For me to do anything else would make me a poor steward plain and simple. What you are asking me to do is to take lightly the great stewardship each of us as Americans have. It is my right and my responsibility to exercise my citizenship to mold the democracy that I am a steward of into the country I wish it to be. It is also your responsibility to do the same.

    I have never suggested that gay people don't have the right to vote or have a voice. Still, Thomas Jefferson said it best:

    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock."

    In short, the only way to accomodate you is to stand like sand....

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:29 pm Agree: 2   Disagree: 0

    The classical rule of tolerance is this: Tolerate persons in all circumstances, by according them respect and courtesy even when their ideas are false or silly.

    Tolerate (i.e., allow) behavior that is moral and consistent with the common good.

    Finally, tolerate (i.e., embrace and believe) ideas that are sound. This is still a good guideline.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:09 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    ''It simply isn't true that all christian denominations (or all christians) are as anti-gay as the posters here.''

    That is because not all ''Christian'' denominations are Christians, it's name only I'm afraid and it's only going to get worse.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:07 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    ''If only the christians here on this site could muster as much simple tolerance.''

    We cannot tolerate what God calls sin, sorry, but it just wouldn't work.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 1:05 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 1

    gg, if you don't want to be told staight about what it means to be saved and be told that you need to repent and that you are on your way to hell if you carry on in your sinful lifestyle, you should visit secular blogs and forums.

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show believer, I don't know a whole lot about various denominations, but I have gay friends who belong to christian churches that embrace them 100% and tell them clearly their sexual orientation is normal, natural, and of no consequence to god. Isn't the episcopal church one such church? They have a gay bishop; I can't believe they would give him that position while also telling him his sexual orientation is a sin. A simple Google search also returns things like the "Gay Christian Network" and "Rainbow Christians." It simply isn't true that all christian denominations (or all christians) are as anti-gay as the posters here. hide

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:52 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 0

    Flagged as inappropriate. show DP, that is simply not true. I want to live in a world where you can believe whatever you want about homosexuality. But where you will not try to force me to live by that belief. You won't let that happen. Most people who have objections to gay couples getting a civil marriage license do so on the basis of their religion. If I don't subscribe to those religious beliefs why must I live by them? On the other hand, I believe there's nothing wrong with gay couples getting married. I want to live my life by that belief. You won't let me. That's like me forcing you to marry someone of the same sex or else not get married at all. That would be horribly unfair of me. Which is why I don't do that. If only the christians here on this site could muster as much simple tolerance. So please, don't fool yourself into believing you espouse tolerance. It would be nice if you did, but you don't. hide

  • Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:45 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    Flagged as inappropriate. show Prophet, I don't think I'm getting "worked up," but to any extent I am it's simply because people like you are trying to create civil, secular laws based on your supernatural beliefs, laws that I then must abide by even though I don't subscribe to the faith-based stories you base them on. So don't feed us this line about christians walking peacefully when others don't subscribe. If that were true you would stand quietly by and let me live by my beliefs while you live by yours. You don't do that. What you attempt to do is the equivalent of me forcing you to live by my beliefs. I don't do that. What I expect is that we can both live side by side in peace by our own beliefs. hide

  • Star »
    Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:20 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 0

    ifeelfine72

    >>>star: How can I contact you? DP, same for you, I'll share it with you personally via email, how can I contact you?<<<

    My Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:48 am post tells you how.

    Look forward to hearing from you.

  • Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:26 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 1

    "That's why I think it's all a bunch of hooey. Might have had a place in the Middle Ages when people didn't know any better, but today it's nonsense. Especially when it leads people to judge and hate and act toward one another the way posters on this site do."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    And the atheists have the blood of 150 million innocent people on it's hands to show it's "love" and "tolerance" for people who disagree with them.
    True Christians share the Gospel with people. If they don't accept the truth, we let them go their way. We don't kill them or coerce them with physical harm to change. If you don't believe that you're going to hell, then what are you getting so worked up about? If someone said "Well, you've been naughty this year so Santa isn't going to visit you", would you react with as much passion as you do on here? Not in the least.
    I believe that those who react so adamantly against such things as God, heaven, and hell is that in their heart they know it's true. I have never seen anyone react so against something they knew was truly a fairytale.
    So, to put it simply...if you don't believe in hell, don't get so worked up about it. It's not going to affect you in the end, anyway, is it?

  • Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    That's wise not to give out your contact information on blogs, especially ones haunted by trolls wishing Christians harm. A few years back I had a homo activist call one of the newspapers I write for in an attempt to have them drop my column.

  • Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:59 pm Agree: 1   Disagree: 2

    Sorry...but I don't give out my contact info on forums.

  • Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:57 pm Agree: 0   Disagree: 3

    "Did it occur to you that other religions think the exact same stuff toward you?"

    Here's the bottom line you seem to keep missing...it isn't what religions think INCLUDING OURS!!! It's what God thinks. True Christianity is about loving God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself. Because I love God I will tell people what HE has said offends Him if they ask. I show them in the Bible what it says. They can either accept it now or they can accept it face to face with God. It's their choice.

    The problem comes in when anti-christ minded people think it's OK to force sin on Christians in an attempt to force them to accept it. It is the intolerance of the anti-Christ minded people that create the problem. It is the double standard that says Christians must accept your sin but you don't have to respect their beliefs. There in is the problem....

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