John MacArthur, Ben Shapiro talk Christian nationalism, Jesus, decline of the American Church

Decline of religion and degradation of American churches

Noting that the precipitous decline of church attendance among Protestants in the U.S. during the past 50 years has been "devastating to the nation," Shapiro opened his discussion with MacArthur by asking him how such a trend can be reversed.

MacArthur said there "may be a number of things contributing" to the downward trend, but noted that one major factor could be that churches have become too worldly and focused on telling people what they want to hear.

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"Many, many churches have lost their sense of transcendence," he said. "It's like going to a rock concert. It's like going to a TED talk. It's like going to hear somebody tell you you're really a wonderful person and you can speak your own world into existence. It's psychological and sociological games, but it lacks transcendence."

"It lacks the sense of connecting with God, with finding reality in an invisible means of support beyond yourself," he added.

Another factor, according to MacArthur, is "the crushing disintegration of the family," which he said has contributed to pushing people toward finding their sense of belonging and community online instead of in reality.

Shapiro also asked MacArthur his advice for how Christians can find a good church, to which he replied by saying the hallmark of a faithful church is that it "bears moral authority" and takes firm stands on such issues.

"It exists to say, 'This is what the Lord has said, this is what God requires, this is the divine mandate, this is the morality that leads to blessing [...],'" MacArthur said of a good church.

"So the bottom line is, if you're living in the culture that we're living in, where you want absolute freedom to do anything you choose to do — to establish your own set of rules, your own truth, your own standards of morality — the last thing you want is to step into some place that's going to call into question everything you're choosing to do in your life, and is going to exercise authority over you," MacArthur said.

Jon Brown is a reporter for The Christian Post. Send news tips to

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