John MacArthur, Ben Shapiro talk Christian nationalism, Jesus, decline of the American Church

Christian nationalism

The two went on to discuss the alleged rise of Christian nationalism, with Shapiro suggesting that religious leaders are being unfairly accused of wading into politics for taking stands on moral issues.

Noting that politics have increasingly moved away from merely sociological and economic views into morality, MacArthur said politicians are the ones who are treading outside of their appropriate sphere of authority.

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"I grew up in a world where Democrats had a sociological view, they had an economic view; Republicans had a sociological and economic view," he said. "There was never a moral issue. It was the workforce and the ownership. Those were the two parties. The Republicans were the ones that created the jobs, and the Democrats are the ones that work the jobs, and finding out a balance there was what the political leaders were supposed to achieve."

MacArthur observed such a relatively straightforward political arrangement "went away and early in this century, when politicians began to make their platforms moral — or immoral, from my standpoint. When you start saying it's pro-LGBTQ, it's pro-homosexual, it's pro-abortion, it's pro-transgender [...], everything has shifted from the economic definitions of the past into these moral issues."

"So as a Christian, I'm still talking on a moral level," he continued. "It just so happens that politicians have stepped into the moral world and created chaos."

He added that Christians ought to vote to uphold righteousness as much as they are able, and repudiated the idea that such behavior is Christian nationalism.

"That's not Christian nationalism," he said. "It just so happens that the politicians have basically co-opted sin and turned it into their platform, which forces people who understand a biblical definition of sin to be the enemy. It's not like we're trying to take over the world. It's not that we're trying to take over the United States. We're just trying to uphold righteousness."

MacArthur later suggested that the point of the Christian nationalism label is to silence Christians and push them out of the public square.

"The point is, they like to keep us out, they want to keep us out of the public discourse, that's for sure," he said. "That is the legacy of secularism. I mean, that's where secularism takes you."

During a question-and-answer period at Grace Community Church in February, MacArthur spoke out against Christian nationalism insofar as it is defined as an attempt to usher in the Kingdom of God through political means, though he also exhorted Christians to care about what happens in their country.

"There is no such thing as Christian nationalism," MacArthur said at the time. "The Kingdom of God is not of this world. Jesus said, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight.' His Kingdom is not of this world. The kingdom of this world is a separate world. They're not linked together."

Jon Brown is a reporter for The Christian Post. Send news tips to

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